Creating a Savings Portfolio for Thai Wife

[RocketDog]

On 11/27/2024 at 11:28 PM, gejohesch said:

Thanks, obviously. I just forgot to say that I'm not legally married - some issues with my past life "back home" prevent me from marrying in Thailand. Any will I could write to the benefit of my "de facto wife" in Thailand would not be legally valid.

I thought a Will is to choose who is a beneficiary...period. Could be the lady selling noodles down the street or your sister at home.

What am I missing?

 

I am legally divorced in USA decades ago. Three years ago I went to a Thai lawyer and made a Will naming my Thai GF as the only beneficiary of all I have here.

 

My understanding is that he manages the probate process and she gets the proceeds.

 

Why wouldn't that work for you? Are you saying Wills only work for married people in Thailand?

 

 

[Hummin]

if you still have wife in Usa, then your thai wife might have some problems in future. Heard about simular incidents before, where an old wife just came out from nowhere, and claimed everything

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

38 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

I thought a Will is to choose who is a beneficiary...period. Could be the lady selling noodles down the street or your sister at home.

What am I missing?

 

I am legally divorced in USA decades ago. Three years ago I went to a Thai lawyer and made a Will naming my Thai GF as the only beneficiary of all I have here.

 

My understanding is that he manages the probate process and she gets the proceeds.

 

Why wouldn't that work for you? Are you saying Wills only work for married people in Thailand?

 

For sake of record > I am not familiar with the inheritance laws/regulations in Thailand, but am well acquainted with how this works in Europe. 

And - in case the rules/regulations would be largely similar- there are two considerations that need to be made.

#1 - When you have children, they are entitled to their legal part of your inheritance.  And in most European countries your children cannot be disinherited.

So when you write in your will 'that everything you own should go to your girlfriend', that will be executed but only for that part of your inheritance after the legal parts that your family members will automatically be entitled to, has been executed.

#2 - There is also the matter of inheritance taxation, and that tax is progressive the farther you are away from blood relatives, practically that means that your children will pay the lowest tax tarif on their part of the inheritance, but your girlfriend (with which you are not married, and she has no family blood-ties with you) will be taxed highest on the part of the inheritance she will receive.

#3 - To escape that inheritance taxation and possible claims by relatives on parts of your heritage, you can provide already all or parts of the future inheritance to your girlfriend while you are still alive.  However, such gifts would have to be received by her, at least 1 year before your demise, otherwise she will have to give them back when the inheritance is to be executed.  And as mentioned higher then first your children will get their legal part of the full inheritance (including the gifts you made less than 1 year to your girlfriend), and the whole of the inheritance will be taxed (so even if your girlfriend gets her gifts back, they will first be inheritance taxed). 

 

Once again, I am not familiar with Thai inheritance laws/regulations, so it is well possible that none of this will be applicable to you.  But as you are a US citizen, it will be the US inheritance laws/regulations that will be applicable for you (and I presume that your Thai lawyer was well aware of this and informed you about possible caveats/misunderstandings re making your will and wanting your girlfriend to get the full inheritance).

[Red Phoenix]

On 11/27/2024 at 2:08 AM, gejohesch said:

I have been living for nearly 20 years with a charming Thai woman. As I'm getting older (we all do!), I'm gradually getting concerned about the possibility that one day I will be gone, leaving her alone. She is 20 years younger than me, so that is quite a likely situation to happen some time in the future. I would like to find a way to put money away for her to secure her standards of living from that point in time onwards. Something like an in an investment or savings portfolio, say sthg in the order of 1-2 million THB, that she would know of but could only touch once I have disappeared.

 

Why am I asking? Because, as sweet and lovely she is, I still cannot trust her entirely. I would not want to give her the opportunity to cash out while I'm still alive, me not knowing, and who knows what she would do with the money, what sort of silly "project" she would use the money for, "project" that would miserably fail? Most people on this forum know the Thais sufficiently to understand what I'm talking about.

 

I'm aware that I could shop around the banks in Thailand and ask. However, if anyone in this forum could give me some appropriate advise, that would save me time and I would much appreciate it.

 

By "appropriate advise", I mean that please, abstain from unnecessary comments on my personal relationship with my wife. That's not what I need!

 

Hi @gejohesch > You did not mention your nationality in your OP, but your nationality will have large consequences for any inheritance related actions you take. 

I am in a comparable situation like yourself in the sense that I am not married with my lovely Thai girlfriend that I am now more than 10 years already living with, and obviously when not being legally married with her she is not entitled to anything from my inheritance when I demise.   Of course I could make a will and simply state what I want her to receive after my demise.

But I have deliberately chosen not to make a will, and as a result my whole inheritance will go in equal parts to my 3 children (I am divorced, so my ex-wife will receive nothing).  And the reason I did not make a will is that in Belgium - and in most European countries - the recipients of your inheritance will be taxed on the part they receive.  And that inheritance tax becomes progressively heavier the further the recipient is away in blood-family ties.  So that means in my case that my 3 children will pay the lowest inheritance tax on their part (something like 5 to 10%), but my Thai girlfriend when I put her in my will will have to pay 30% or more on what I donate to her.  

As I fully trust my 3 children, I explained the situation to them and told them that I wanted each of them to give 25% of the part they receive from my inheritance (after taxation) to my Thai girlfriend.  So when that is done, my inheritance will actually come in the hands of 4 persons (my 3 children and my Thai girlfriend), but my Thai girlfriend will not be confronted with the high taxation but instead 'piggyback' on the low taxation that my children have to pay on my inheritance.

>> So if the same applies to you, and you can trust the legal inheritants of your inheritants to act according to your wishes, you could consider a similar approach.

[himmel]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

It's easy, but most women I know, haven't got the self discipline to invest & save.  Current wife is the only one, that has listened to me and understand how to do both. 

 

Not sure if entirely my influence, as all her siblings are quite successful, financially and well off, most retiring early.  Not the easiest thing to do in TH.  Along with most, self employed, and seem to be the common denominator. 

 

For most people, I'd suggest a trust fund, with withdrawal limits.  Easy enough to set up.

Hi KhunLA, would care to elaborate, ie, trust fund.  Easy enough to set up, How, Where. Thanks. 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, himmel said:

Hi KhunLA, would care to elaborate, ie, trust fund.  Easy enough to set up, How, Where. Thanks. 

Probably easier to do in your home country.   Very easy if a Yank.  TH just started a few years back, but I didn't get much further than knowing it was possible now.

 

Since having trusted partner, and kid now adult age, no need to set one up for them.  They both have access to each others assets via wills, and responsible enough to not need a trust.

 

Give this a read ...

 

https://www.bakermckenzie.com/-/media/files/insight/publications/2018/08/al_thailand_privatetrustactapproved_aug18.pdf?la=en#:~:text=A trust can be set,onshore assets including real estate.

[RocketDog]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

For sake of record > I am not familiar with the inheritance laws/regulations in Thailand, but am well acquainted with how this works in Europe. 

And - in case the rules/regulations would be largely similar- there are two considerations that need to be made.

#1 - When you have children, they are entitled to their legal part of your inheritance.  And in most European countries your children cannot be disinherited.

So when you write in your will 'that everything you own should go to your girlfriend', that will be executed but only for that part of your inheritance after the legal parts that your family members will automatically be entitled to, has been executed.

#2 - There is also the matter of inheritance taxation, and that tax is progressive the farther you are away from blood relatives, practically that means that your children will pay the lowest tax tarif on their part of the inheritance, but your girlfriend (with which you are not married, and she has no family blood-ties with you) will be taxed highest on the part of the inheritance she will receive.

#3 - To escape that inheritance taxation and possible claims by relatives on parts of your heritage, you can provide already all or parts of the future inheritance to your girlfriend while you are still alive.  However, such gifts would have to be received by her, at least 1 year before your demise, otherwise she will have to give them back when the inheritance is to be executed.  And as mentioned higher then first your children will get their legal part of the full inheritance (including the gifts you made less than 1 year to your girlfriend), and the whole of the inheritance will be taxed (so even if your girlfriend gets her gifts back, they will first be inheritance taxed). 

 

Once again, I am not familiar with Thai inheritance laws/regulations, so it is well possible that none of this will be applicable to you.  But as you are a US citizen, it will be the US inheritance laws/regulations that will be applicable for you (and I presume that your Thai lawyer was well aware of this and informed you about possible caveats/misunderstandings re making your will and wanting your girlfriend to get the full inheritance).

Pete,

You have some good points but I have a will in America and I have a Will in Thailand. The Will in Thailand never mentions anything in America but my American Will mentions payments to my girlfriend here.

 

In America if there is no last Will and testament then the Probate Court does assign proceeds to the next of kin.

If there is a awill in effect however the proceeds go to whoever it is assigned to and next of kin get nothing at all if not named beneficiaries. I have no blood children or adopted children so neither of these are mentioned in my Wills, neither of them.

To upgrade inheritance point, both cars are already in her name but giving all I own here before I pass to any person is beyond my limits of trust. She will just have to do with what she gets after taxes.

 

BTW, my Thai Will specifically asserts that all proceeds go to GF and any family claims are specifically excluded. I am well aware of this hazard and have blocked it.

A trust fund is a good solution also but as you may know these do not exist in Thailand.

 

[Thanks. Hope all is well with you. House in America sold on Nov 28. Yay!]

 

[RocketDog]

17 minutes ago, himmel said:

Hi KhunLA, would care to elaborate, ie, trust fund.  Easy enough to set up, How, Where. Thanks. 

I contacted a Thai lawyer as well as web research.

Both claim USA style Trust Funds are not possible for Thailand.

I suppose you could set one up in your home country for assets there going to Thailand beneficiary but it could get messy.

[newnative]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

I thought a Will is to choose who is a beneficiary...period. Could be the lady selling noodles down the street or your sister at home.

What am I missing?

 

I am legally divorced in USA decades ago. Three years ago I went to a Thai lawyer and made a Will naming my Thai GF as the only beneficiary of all I have here.

 

My understanding is that he manages the probate process and she gets the proceeds.

 

Why wouldn't that work for you? Are you saying Wills only work for married people in Thailand?

 

 

You  are correct.  A beneficiary can be anyone you choose--including the noodle lady.

[himmel]

Just now, RocketDog said:

I contacted a Thai lawyer as well as web research.

Both claim USA style Trust Funds are not possible for Thailand.

I suppose you could set one up in your home country for assets there going to Thailand beneficiary but it could get messy.

Well ill not be going to my home country GB, in the future, not sure id trust anyone in Thailand with 5-6 mil. I'm just gunna have to make a English will, I have Thai one, but at 79.5 i must do it sooner than later

 

16 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Probably easier to do in your home country.   Very easy if a Yank.  TH just started a few years back, but I didn't get much further than knowing it was possible now.

 

Since having trusted partner, and kid now adult age, no need to set one up for them.  They both have access to each others assets via wills, and responsible enough to not need a trust.

 

Give this a read ...

 

https://www.bakermckenzie.com/-/media/files/insight/publications/2018/08/al_thailand_privatetrustactapproved_aug18.pdf?la=en#:~:text=A trust can be set,onshore assets including real estate.

Well I'm not gunna be going to my home country GB in the near future,, so I guess ill just have to make an English Will here in Thailand,  I already have a Thai one, at 79.5 years old, guess Ill have to do sooner than later. 

[gejohesch]

8 hours ago, Hummin said:

if you still have wife in Usa, then your thai wife might have some problems in future. Heard about simular incidents before, where an old wife just came out from nowhere, and claimed everything

 

 

Good point. That's exactly my worry. I'm a citizen of a country in, I'm still married in, and my pensions are sourced from Western Europe (note  that these are not necessarily the same and unique country). When deceased, these countries will exercise their laws, and I suspect that these will prevail on anything I try to do "on the legal side" in Thailand.

[gejohesch]

8 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

For sake of record > I am not familiar with the inheritance laws/regulations in Thailand, but am well acquainted with how this works in Europe. 

And - in case the rules/regulations would be largely similar- there are two considerations that need to be made.

#1 - When you have children, they are entitled to their legal part of your inheritance.  And in most European countries your children cannot be disinherited.

So when you write in your will 'that everything you own should go to your girlfriend', that will be executed but only for that part of your inheritance after the legal parts that your family members will automatically be entitled to, has been executed.

#2 - There is also the matter of inheritance taxation, and that tax is progressive the farther you are away from blood relatives, practically that means that your children will pay the lowest tax tarif on their part of the inheritance, but your girlfriend (with which you are not married, and she has no family blood-ties with you) will be taxed highest on the part of the inheritance she will receive.

#3 - To escape that inheritance taxation and possible claims by relatives on parts of your heritage, you can provide already all or parts of the future inheritance to your girlfriend while you are still alive.  However, such gifts would have to be received by her, at least 1 year before your demise, otherwise she will have to give them back when the inheritance is to be executed.  And as mentioned higher then first your children will get their legal part of the full inheritance (including the gifts you made less than 1 year to your girlfriend), and the whole of the inheritance will be taxed (so even if your girlfriend gets her gifts back, they will first be inheritance taxed). 

 

Once again, I am not familiar with Thai inheritance laws/regulations, so it is well possible that none of this will be applicable to you.  But as you are a US citizen, it will be the US inheritance laws/regulations that will be applicable for you (and I presume that your Thai lawyer was well aware of this and informed you about possible caveats/misunderstandings re making your will and wanting your girlfriend to get the full inheritance).

Ah, that's very clear, thanks very much. As I said in my reply to so else just a minute ago:

- A) I'm a citizen of a Western European country.

- B) I'm still married in a Western European country.

- C) My pensions are sourced from 2 Western European countries.

 

Point 1 you make is particularly of interest : children cannot be disinherited. That's the case in the Western European countries A, B, C above. I have 2 children. If I write a will stating that I leave even 1000 THB to "the noodle shop lady down the street", the lawyers will just have a good laugh and ignore it.

 

So, in my case, securing the future of my "de facto wife" but "legally speaking GF" has to go via donations or some investment entirely in her name.

[gejohesch]

8 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Hi @gejohesch > You did not mention your nationality in your OP, but your nationality will have large consequences for any inheritance related actions you take. 

I am in a comparable situation like yourself in the sense that I am not married with my lovely Thai girlfriend that I am now more than 10 years already living with, and obviously when not being legally married with her she is not entitled to anything from my inheritance when I demise.   Of course I could make a will and simply state what I want her to receive after my demise.

But I have deliberately chosen not to make a will, and as a result my whole inheritance will go in equal parts to my 3 children (I am divorced, so my ex-wife will receive nothing).  And the reason I did not make a will is that in Belgium - and in most European countries - the recipients of your inheritance will be taxed on the part they receive.  And that inheritance tax becomes progressively heavier the further the recipient is away in blood-family ties.  So that means in my case that my 3 children will pay the lowest inheritance tax on their part (something like 5 to 10%), but my Thai girlfriend when I put her in my will will have to pay 30% or more on what I donate to her.  

As I fully trust my 3 children, I explained the situation to them and told them that I wanted each of them to give 25% of the part they receive from my inheritance (after taxation) to my Thai girlfriend.  So when that is done, my inheritance will actually come in the hands of 4 persons (my 3 children and my Thai girlfriend), but my Thai girlfriend will not be confronted with the high taxation but instead 'piggyback' on the low taxation that my children have to pay on my inheritance.

>> So if the same applies to you, and you can trust the legal inheritants of your inheritants to act according to your wishes, you could consider a similar approach.

Thanks again, your construction is interesting. I have 2 children and I know for sure that at least one of them will refuse to pass on anything whatsoever to my Thai GF.

[gejohesch]

7 hours ago, newnative said:

You  are correct.  A beneficiary can be anyone you choose--including the noodle lady.

Again (!) : No, that is not always true. Different countries (citizenship, pension sources), or better said : different jurisdictions > different laws. Just read what Red Phoenix explained, and my replies above. In most Western European countries, one cannot disinherit children. And to be precise, at least in the jurisdictions that apply to me, the laws are very precise in stating how the estate is distributed between children (and surviving spouse if any), and that leaves 0% for anyone / anything else.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, gejohesch said:

Again (!) : No, that is not always true. Different countries (citizenship, pension sources), or better said : different jurisdictions > different laws. Just read what Red Phoenix explained, and my replies above. In most Western European countries, one cannot disinherit children. And to be precise, at least in the jurisdictions that apply to me, the laws are very precise in stating how the estate is distributed between children (and surviving spouse if any), and that leaves 0% for anyone / anything else.

Hi @gejohesch, for sake of clarity > You can write in your will that you want your entire heritance going to the noodle-shop lady, and that intent will be honored but it will relate only to the part of your inheritance that remains after the legal inheritors have received their part (and it will be minus the inheritance tax that will apply for non-blood related beneficiaries.  It is not necessary to know the exact settlement, as the principle is that the INTENT of the deceased will be executed but AFTER the legal inheritors have received their by-law foreseen minimum part.  

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, gejohesch said:

Good point. That's exactly my worry. I'm a citizen of a country in, I'm still married in, and my pensions are sourced from Western Europe (note  that these are not necessarily the same and unique country). When deceased, these countries will exercise their laws, and I suspect that these will prevail on anything I try to do "on the legal side" in Thailand.

Yes that's correct.  Note that you elsewhere in the thread that you are still legally married but are not staying with your wife but with your Thai girlfirend in Thailand.  In my home-country (Belgium) if you decease, your wife will be entitled to receive your pension as she has then become your widow.  However, in Belgium you need to be legally married at least 1 fully year before your wife can claim your pension as widow.  But every country has different rules on this matter. and the rules of the country from which you get that pension will prevail.

[gejohesch]

7 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

Hi @gejohesch, for sake of clarity > You can write in your will that you want your entire heritance going to the noodle-shop lady, and that intent will be honored but it will relate only to the part of your inheritance that remains after the legal inheritors have received their part (and it will be minus the inheritance tax that will apply for non-blood related beneficiaries.  It is not necessary to know the exact settlement, as the principle is that the INTENT of the deceased will be executed but AFTER the legal inheritors have received their by-law foreseen minimum part.  

Yes. I just checked that. It's exactly how it works.

[gejohesch]

7 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

Yes that's correct.  Note that you elsewhere in the thread that you are still legally married but are not staying with your wife but with your Thai girlfirend in Thailand.  In my home-country (Belgium) if you decease, your wife will be entitled to receive your pension as she has then become your widow.  However, in Belgium you need to be legally married at least 1 fully year before your wife can claim your pension as widow.  But every country has different rules on this matter. and the rules of the country from which you get that pension will prevail.

Correct also in the jurisdictions that apply to me : the pensions are transferred to the surviving legal spouse (with substantial reductions from what they were being paid to me). Nothing could possibly pass to my GF.

 

So the question for me is how to either:

 

1) Make an investment on my GF's name. Best seems to be a life insurance. I checked: a life insurance would not be considered as part of the estate upon my passing away, so it would be 100% to her benefit.

 

or

 

2) Make a will to the benefit of my Thai GF, taking into account that it can only be whatever remains after the parts that would go by law to my children. I think it would be possible not leaving any part of the estate to my legal wife, which would not worry me as I have very well looked after her and she would get my pensions (reworked).

However, this may not be the better option because: it needs legal work (tedious, intricate) + the fiscality that would apply to a beneficiary other than the ones dictated by the law (the ones that cannot be disinherited) would probably be heavy.

[Red Phoenix]

3 hours ago, gejohesch said:

Correct also in the jurisdictions that apply to me : the pensions are transferred to the surviving legal spouse (with substantial reductions from what they were being paid to me). Nothing could possibly pass to my GF.

 

So the question for me is how to either:

 

1) Make an investment on my GF's name. Best seems to be a life insurance. I checked: a life insurance would not be considered as part of the estate upon my passing away, so it would be 100% to her benefit.

 

or

 

2) Make a will to the benefit of my Thai GF, taking into account that it can only be whatever remains after the parts that would go by law to my children. I think it would be possible not leaving any part of the estate to my legal wife, which would not worry me as I have very well looked after her and she would get my pensions (reworked).

However, this may not be the better option because: it needs legal work (tedious, intricate) + the fiscality that would apply to a beneficiary other than the ones dictated by the law (the ones that cannot be disinherited) would probably be heavy.

 

> If indeed the money being paid out on your demise from a life insurance polis is not considered part of the estate, then that would probably be in your situation (still legally married and with 2 children, one of which you are not sure that will honor an agreement to transfer part of their heritance to your girlfriend) the best option to leave your girlfriend not in the cold after your demise.  But do check thoroughly whether that is indeed the case and that there are no 'snakes in the grass' in the heritance rules/regulations of your home-country as well as in the polis to which you would subscribe. 

> Another option might be that you buy gold or stocks (but you would need the actual documents, and not have them kept at a broker or bank).  The advantage of that option would be that the value of gold and well-chosen stocks would rise over time, while a life insurance policy would normally pay out less than what you paid for it during your remaining years.

> You could also consider buying Bitcoin and/or another crypto-currency, and - IMPORTANT - keep access to it on a stand-alone physical wallet that you have in your possession (so no shady trader running of with your coins).  The advantage of that being that the person who has the codes to access it, is considered the actual owner (it's like handing over untraceable bank-notes to a person of your choice). You need to share the codes with your girlfriend, otherwise on your demise nobody will be able to get hold of the virtual coins.  Obviously there is also a risk due to the volatility of crypto-currency but it can go BOTH ways as many Bitcoin-owners made a fortune due to its exchange rate exploding.  

> Finally and another attractive option that would normally preserve its value (or rise) would be that you buy land or a house in Thailand on your girlfriend's name. 

 

A combination of some of these methods might be the way to go in your situation to ensure your girlfriend will not be left in the cold when you pass the temporary for the eternal...  

[john donson]

On 11/27/2024 at 2:08 AM, gejohesch said:

I have been living for nearly 20 years with a charming Thai woman. As I'm getting older (we all do!), I'm gradually getting concerned about the possibility that one day I will be gone, leaving her alone. She is 20 years younger than me, so that is quite a likely situation to happen some time in the future. I would like to find a way to put money away for her to secure her standards of living from that point in time onwards. Something like an in an investment or savings portfolio, say sthg in the order of 1-2 million THB, that she would know of but could only touch once I have disappeared.

 

Why am I asking? Because, as sweet and lovely she is, I still cannot trust her entirely. I would not want to give her the opportunity to cash out while I'm still alive, me not knowing, and who knows what she would do with the money, what sort of silly "project" she would use the money for, "project" that would miserably fail? Most people on this forum know the Thais sufficiently to understand what I'm talking about.

 

I'm aware that I could shop around the banks in Thailand and ask. However, if anyone in this forum could give me some appropriate advise, that would save me time and I would much appreciate it.

 

By "appropriate advise", I mean that please, abstain from unnecessary comments on my personal relationship with my wife. That's not what I need!

 

no brainer

 

life insurance, you dead, she gets...

 

first you say love thai woman,  then wife?

 

you don't have kids in your home country ?

 

or with your GF?

 

once you are death, wtf you care what she does with it...

[rickudon]

Has not been mentioned - how about setting up an annuity or a private pension in her name. She would get a monthly payment and hopefully if setup correctly she would not be able to cash it in to give away.

[gejohesch]

2 minutes ago, rickudon said:

Has not been mentioned - how about setting up an annuity or a private pension in her name. She would get a monthly payment and hopefully if setup correctly she would not be able to cash it in to give away.

Could be interesting, but do you know more about possibilities to do that, either in THB and in Thailand, or in another currency and that would be paid to her being resident in Thailand?