MAGA civil war as Elon Musk and Vivek clash with hard right on key immigration issue

[John Drake]

After watching Musk go berserk over H1Bs, I do have another serious question: is this the sort of man you want to let put a chip in your brain?

[The Old Bull]

I took engineering at university and could not help but notice most of the Masters and PHD students were from India, That is because they came from rich families. All of us with Bachelors degrees were tired of being broke and couldn't wait to get a job ,earn some money buy a car , chase women ,catch up to those that left school early to take up a trade. The Indian students had no wish to chase women, one of them told me when I want to get married my parents will find me wife so I don't have to look.

[John Drake]

16 hours ago, G_Money said:

Those are your words.

 

Those are Elon's words. He and Vivek started this war, as the title of this topic indicates.

[John Drake]

I asked Elon's Grok/X to rank the top 5 countries in terms of quality of engineers. Here is the result. Notice, India is not on the list. Why are we replacing American engineers (#1) with Indians who don't rank? Could it be $$$$$? For that matter, to get Elon's "exceptional talent," why aren't we getting engineers from Germany, Switzerland, Japan, or S. Korea, instead of India?

Determining the top countries in terms of the quality of engineers can be subjective, as it depends on criteria like educational systems, research output, innovation, and industry impact. However, based on various indicators such as the quality of engineering education, research contributions, and industry reputation, here are five countries often highlighted for their engineering quality:

 

1. United States - Known for its top-tier universities like MIT, Stanford, and Caltech, which produce engineers with significant contributions to technology and innovation. The U.S. is also home to leading tech companies and has a robust research environment.

    

    
2. Germany - Renowned for its precision engineering, Germany has a strong focus on practical engineering education through its dual vocational training system. Universities like the Technical University of Munich and RWTH Aachen are globally recognized for engineering. German engineers are known for their work in automotive, manufacturing, and industrial engineering.

    

    
3. Switzerland - Despite its small size, Switzerland is noted for producing high-quality engineers, particularly in areas like genetic engineering, machinery, and pharmaceuticals. Universities like ETH Zurich are world-renowned.

    
4. Japan - Famous for its contributions to electronics, robotics, and automotive engineering, Japan has a culture of meticulous engineering. Universities like the University of Tokyo and companies like Sony and Panasonic highlight its engineering strength.

    

    
5. South Korea - Known for its technological advancements, especially in electronics, with companies like Samsung and LG leading the global market. South Korea has a strong engineering education system with institutions like KAIST known for their engineering programs.

    

    

 

These rankings reflect a combination of educational quality, industrial output, and innovation but should be seen as a general overview rather than a definitive list, as different sources might rank countries differently based on specific metrics or criteria.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CallumWK]

5 minutes ago, John Drake said:

I asked Elon's Grok/X to rank the top 5 countries in terms of quality of engineers. Here is the result. Notice, India is not on the list. Why are replacing American engineers (#1) with Indians who don't rank?

 

Because an IT professional, which is what they are looking for, is not an engineer?

 

[John Drake]

1 minute ago, CallumWK said:

 

Because an IT professional, which is what they are looking for, is not an engineer?

 

Elon is the one hiring them, and he seems to think they are.

 

[G_Money]

25 minutes ago, John Drake said:

 

Those are Elon's words. He and Vivek started this war, as the title of this topic indicates.

War?  On who?

[Patong2021]

Musk is looking after Musk's best interest.

To understand the  damage that Musk will cause if he is allowed to do what he wants on this issue, look at Canada.  Nearly 5 million temporary Canadians   most of whom are from India. They have disrupted  housing, healthcare  and social services taking up places while giving little back in taxes. They have imported theirown political disputes and created  havoc on the roads. All because some business interests want cheap labour.

 

If the US has a shortage of qualified people, train US students. Pay them living  wages. Offer them training. That's what Trump promised. Now it is time to deliver.

[John Drake]

3 minutes ago, G_Money said:

War?  On who?

 

Read the Daily Mail headline and story, which I included as the title of this topic.

[Will B Good]

4 minutes ago, G_Money said:

War?  On who?

Poor little Laura for a start....no Blue Tick.....freedom of speech? ....555

 

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/laura-loomer-elon-musk-trump-maga-b2670603.html

[Patong2021]

3 minutes ago, G_Money said:

War?  On who?

 

On the US nationals, particularly the taxpayers. An influx of  low paid workers will  screw up the US economy long term. Theyu won't pay taxes sufficient to cover the social services they will receive. They will compete for low cost housing with locals. they will jam the local healthcare networks resulting in delays of access to  locals. They will jam the roads etc.

[G_Money]

1 minute ago, John Drake said:

 

Read the Daily Mail headline and story, which I included as the title of this topic.

Did Congress declare war?  

[G_Money]

4 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

On the US nationals, particularly the taxpayers. An influx of  low paid workers will  screw up the US economy long term. Theyu won't pay taxes sufficient to cover the social services they will receive. They will compete for low cost housing with locals. they will jam the local healthcare networks resulting in delays of access to  locals. They will jam the roads etc.

Who told you that?  Better yet you believe it all.

 

Trump hasn’t been sworn in yet and you’re still afraid of the boogeyman.

 

Was this part of Project 2025?

[Patong2021]

4 minutes ago, G_Money said:

Who told you that?  Better yet you believe it all.

 

Common sense and based upon what happened in Canada. Learn from the social disaster north of the border. Canadian business lobby made the same claims as Musk. they were  disproven. And the Canadian busienss lobby still  is  making the same claim. All those "students" were going to improve Canadian academic quality, and improve productivity. Instead they gamed the immigration system claiming refugee status, and collecting benefits. Those who worked were exploited by the hospitality sector. Go into a Tim Horton's today and you need to speak Urdu if you want service. Almost all of the  big truck crash tragedies are because of Punjabi drivers imported by Punjabi controlled trucking firms who hired unqualified drivers. They were all supposed to be  educated people.  Now it turns out, Canada has become a center for organized crime with Punjabi crime syndicates running wild. That's the reality of Musk's promise.

[G_Money]

2 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

Common sense and based upon what happened in Canada. Learn from the social disaster north of the border. Canadian business lobby made the same claims as Musk. they were  disproven. And the Canadian busienss lobby still  is  making the same claim. All those "students" were going to improve Canadian academic quality, and improve productivity. Instead they gamed the immigration system claiming refugee status, and collecting benefits. Those who worked were exploited by the hospitality sector. Go into a Tim Horton's today and you need to speak Urdu if you want service. Almost all of the  big truck crash tragedies are because of Punjabi drivers imported by Punjabi controlled trucking firms who hired unqualified drivers. They were all supposed to be  educated people.  Now it turns out, Canada has become a center for organized crime with Punjabi crime syndicates running wild. That's the reality of Musk's promise.

Try using more paragraphs.

 

I don’t want you to experience the wrath of @Lacessit

[spidermike007]

As well they should, the quota system is hugely outdated, and it should be expanded to accommodate any and every foreigner who's highly qualified for a top end position in engineering, physics, M

top management, medicine, the sciences, etc. The US needs more talent, not less

It needs more brain surgeons and less landscapers and dishwashers. 

 

These details seem to get lost in the rhetorical morass that is currently the rage in the US, it's not about immigrants, it's about the quality of immigrants. Immigrants built America, period. 

[fondue zoo]

Elon is in a mood, he keeps angry tweeting, while referencing Tropic Thunder lines.

[John Drake]

12 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

As well they should, the quota system is hugely outdated, and it should be expanded to accommodate any and every foreigner who's highly qualified for a top end position in engineering, physics, M

top management, medicine, the sciences, etc. The US needs more talent, not less

It needs more brain surgeons and less landscapers and dishwashers. 

 

These details seem to get lost in the rhetorical morass that is currently the rage in the US, it's not about immigrants, it's about the quality of immigrants. Immigrants built America, period. 

 

If America "needs more talent," then why are American citizens currently holding tech jobs required to train H1Bs to do their job and then be fired from their jobs? 

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, John Drake said:

 

If America "needs more talent," then why are American citizens currently holding tech jobs required to train H1Bs to do their job and then be fired from their jobs? 

Right now a guy from India graduates at the top of his class from MIT as a nuclear physicist, and then he can't get a visa to work for an American company and benefit the American economy, because of the antiquated quota system

 

If you're going to discuss immigration do some homework on legal immigration. There's way too much ignorance out there when it comes to the immigration debate. Be the solution. Don't be the problem. 

[John Drake]

18 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Right now a guy from India graduates at the top of his class from MIT as a nuclear physicist, and then he can't get a visa to work for an American company and benefit the American economy, because of the antiquated quota system

 

If you're going to discuss immigration do some homework on legal immigration. There's way too much ignorance out there when it comes to the immigration debate. Be the solution. Don't be the problem. 

Then he is eligible for an O1 visa. Not H1b.

[spidermike007]

15 hours ago, John Drake said:

Then he is eligible for an O1 visa. Not H1b.

He is not, due to the quota system. 

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

He is not, due to the quota system. 

Hi may not get it due to a quota system, but he's eligible 

But the discussion here is not about O1.

[John Drake]

53 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

He is not, due to the quota system. 

 

There are no caps on O1 visas

[John Drake]

Bad news for Donald. Breitbart just put up a headline story documenting how Trump is now lying about always supporting H1Bs. Devastating. And the comments are even more angry and outraged. He's really stepped in it this time.

[John Drake]

Interesting to see how Vivek has disappeared on this subject and tried to change tactics and subjects. Now, he's out criticizing federal regulations as the real war on the working man. Don't know about that. 40 hour work weeks and no child labor sound pretty good to me. So does a minimum wage and the right to time and a half for overtime pay. What hurts working people are 1) outsourcing jobs to cheap labor 2) importing cheap labor from India (95 percent of H1Bs come from India), and 3) allowing mushrooming immigration numbers to double and triple the costs of houses.

 

This guy has really revealed himself. The pharma stock scam he pulled has really soured me on him. I had heard indirect references. But only with the backlash to his "lazy Americans" comments did I hear the full extent of what he pulled. Vivek should be in jail. I think he has forever marginalized himself, because of the stock scam and his criticism of American culture and Americans.

[placeholder]

On 12/29/2024 at 11:43 AM, John Drake said:

Bad news for Donald. Breitbart just put up a headline story documenting how Trump is now lying about always supporting H1Bs. Devastating. And the comments are even more angry and outraged. He's really stepped in it this time.

Et tu, Breitbart?

Here's a quote from Trump featured in a Breitbart article:

“We graduate two times more Americans with STEM degrees each year than find STEM jobs, yet as much as two-thirds of entry-level hiring for IT jobs is accomplished through the H-1B program,” Trump wrote. “More than half of H-1B visas are issued for the program’s lowest allowable wage level, and more than eighty percent for its bottom two. Raising the prevailing wage paid to H-1Bs will force companies to give these coveted entry-level jobs to the existing domestic pool of unemployed native and immigrant, instead of flying in cheaper workers from overseas. 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2024/12/28/president-elect-donald-trump-i-have-always-been-in-favor-of-h-1b-visas/

There are more quotes where that came from.

[Will B Good]

On 12/28/2024 at 9:30 AM, Yagoda said:

Debate over policy is not civil war. Glad to see its out in the open in contrast to the Democrats.

 

As always you are on the money…..these things need to be out in the open, free speech and all that……Oh! Wait…..

 

 

 

Trump Cabinet picks ordered to stay off social media amid ugly MAGA visa battle - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-social-media-susie-wiles-b2671891.html

[Yagoda]

And your point is?

[placeholder]

Tesla replaced laid off US workers with foreign workers using H-1B visas that Musk want to increase

Tesla has replaced some of its US employees who were let go as part of a big wave of layoffs earlier this year with foreign workers using H-1B visas, which CEO Elon Musk is now campaigning to increase.

Over the last week, Elon Musk has been promoting the increase of H-1B visas, which are used to bring foreign workers into the US for “specialty occupations.”

Qualified foreign workers need to be sponsored by a company to get the visa, which lasts three years, extendable to six years, after which the holder needs to reapply.

https://electrek.co/2024/12/30/tesla-replaced-laid-off-us-workers-with-foreign-workers-using-h-1b-visas-that-musk-want-to-increase/

[mrwebb8825]

On 12/27/2024 at 6:40 AM, mokwit said:

I disagree with your/The Daily Mail's title. i think they are clashing with normal people who don't want to be excluded from the workforce and see their town and country turned into little India.

 

Some are suggesting (perhaps tongue in cheek) that Trump wants to annex Canada to get more Indians into the US more quickly.

 

This is from my X feed. You will have to judge for yourselves as to the credibility/veracity of this description of what may be going down.

 

Okay since the H1B visa and country caps and the tech sector and India an Indians are all a hot topic right now, I would like to address this as someone who has worked behind the scenes in H1B consultancies in the tech sector and explain EXACTLY why I’m against removing country caps, against the H1B visa, and against the entire canard that we need to import more people from anywhere, let alone India, to do “jobs that the tech sector can’t find Americans to do:

 

1) Sourcing Talent- Big companies like Google and Meta have the resources to go and actually pluck out the ACTUAL best talent from these countries, and it’s not hard for them to attract those applicants either because they have the brand recognition. All the best want to work for the best. This isn’t necessarily the problem. The problem is all the no name consultancies and mid size/small size consultancies. They can petition for H1B’s too. How are they sourcing them? Well, they (usually run by Indians) just find a guy from India through their network…who’s willing to work for them and come to America. That’s it. They’ll make sure they have some kind of Bachelors or Masters from some college out there and have the aptitude to learn and understand software that’s it. They aren’t actually “geniuses” or anything like that. They are just willing to work and can learn to “talk the talk” quickly.

 

2) Importation- once the prospective worker agrees, the consultancy petitions the American government (USCIS) on their behalf, saying they tried to recruit for the job (job doesn’t exist) in America and couldn’t find anyone, that’s why they need to bring this guy. Key part of this is that the visa is tied to the employer, so if the employer drops the worker, worker has to go back. He can’t just find another job. This is the indentured servitude model.

 

3) The Gambit- the consultancy makes sure the guy speak English, and that’s really it. USCIS can’t actually vet the workers on the knowledge they claim they have, especially a vast and sophisticated field like software. USCIS doesn’t actually have a way to tell if someone is lying about their skills or not. All they have to do is convince the USCIS that they can speak English so they can come and immediately start working here.

 

4) The Actual Job- once they get the petition for visa approved and they come here, they find out (or already know) they actually don’t have a job here yet. The consultancy now tries to find Corp to Corp contract gigs for the worker. That’s if they actually know the tech and they’re not faking. If they are faking their skills, another workflow is initiated.

 

5) Training Day (or months) - the fakers are trained for up to 3-4 months in a software that’s marketable and fetch a good hourly contract rate. Basically a coding Bootcamp style program. They go from zero to superficial knowledge in the tech, just enough to pass an interview with a potential client.

 

6) Sell the fake - after training the fake for 3-4 months, the fake is provided with a fake resume claiming 7-8 years of experience. Why? Because that’s how much experience is needed to demand a minimum of $50 per hour on a contract. Does it work? Duh. These workers trained for 3-4 months routinely fool interviewers looking for 7-8 years experience.

 

7) The Split- once the job and rate is secured, the consultancy bills at $50 per hour and pays the actual worker the minimum (about $27.50) an hour, and the consultancy pockets the difference. Imagine a 100 H1Bs on a roster doing this for you. Does this sound like fraud? Well that’s because it is, from beginning to end.

 

Dude, that's absolutely the best description of "Teaching In Thailand" I've ever read (slight alterations of course)! 😁