Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[Andre0720]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Thank you for that.

 

Most importantly the this  statement -- which contradicts what most of us have understood to be true -- is not there:

 

"Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable".

 

So presumably it was the writer from the Examiner saying that, and to my understanding it is untrue; only assessable income is declarable. Non-assessable income remitted is not declarable; in fact there currently is no way to declare it. 

 

Big difference.

I wonder about that.

I used to work for the Revenue Department in my country. Then Income tax was my hobby for many years.

(Does not make me an expert here in Thai taxation).

But I would understand the terms 'declarable' as income, for income tax 'assessment' by the local Tax Office, with a view to determine if income tax money is owed to the country.

If I remember correctly, the unit I initially worked in was referred to as 'Initial assessment'. To determine how much they could easily grab. Because our dear governments always keep the option of 'secondary assessment'.

I suppose that such terms get their own meaning according to rule of law of each country.

 

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Look at the publication in which the article appeared (Thai Examiner). Look at the author (Joseph O'Connor) and his past articles.On that basis consider whether this is a credible organization or a credible writer.I know what I think.

It's imprecise at best.

[rhodie]

From the article quoted:

The Revenue Department invites taxpayers to perform their duties as good citizens and participate in creating national security by submitting personal income tax forms, Por.Ngor.Dor. 90 and Por.Ngor.Dor. 91, for the 2024 tax year, within the deadline. 

 

"as good citizens" Does not apply to any of us.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Andre0720 said:

I wonder about that.

I used to work for the Revenue Department in my country. Then Income tax was my hobby for many years.

(Does not make me an expert here in Thai taxation).

But I would understand the terms 'declarable' as income, for income tax 'assessment' by the local Tax Office, with a view to determine if income tax money is owed to the country.

If I remember correctly, the unit I initially worked in was referred to as 'Initial assessment'. To determine how much they could easily grab. Because our dear governments always keep the option of 'secondary assessment'.

I suppose that such terms get their own meaning according to rule of law of each country.

 

 

Funds do not have to be assessable for them to be declared, ignored income is required to be declared but it is not assessable to tax.

[Andre0720]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Funds do not have to be assessable for them to be declared, ignored income is required to be declared but it is not assessable to tax.

I would think that all income is subject to assessment. But might not result owed tax from that income.

You write 'funds', did you mean 'income'?

[Captain Flack]

Another off topic troll comment has been removed. @Gobbler

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, Andre0720 said:

I wonder about that.

I used to work for the Revenue Department in my country. Then Income tax was my hobby for many years.

(Does not make me an expert here in Thai taxation).

But I would understand the terms 'declarable' as income, for income tax 'assessment' by the local Tax Office, with a view to determine if income tax money is owed to the country.

If I remember correctly, the unit I initially worked in was referred to as 'Initial assessment'. To determine how much they could easily grab. Because our dear governments always keep the option of 'secondary assessment'.

I suppose that such terms get their own meaning according to rule of law of each country.

 

 

The Thai forms do not provide any means for declaring source of income or other information that might enable the RD to decide if income is assessable. To date the system has been to report only assessable income. Any income you report will be assumed to be assessable. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Andre0720 said:

I would think that all income is subject to assessment. But might not result owed tax from that income.

You write 'funds', did you mean 'income'?

There are several stages. Remitted funds include all funds that are sent to Thailand, these have to be assessed by the taxpayer to determine is they are exempt or assessable to tax.

 

Funds that are assessable to tax must be declared on a tax term and assessed once again to determine if tax is payable or whether they are below the level of the TEDA.

 

So, there are several levels of assessment for different purposes, tax payer assessment of inbound funds in order to filter out exempt funds, and, tax assessment to determine if tax is due on assessable funds. There is then a third level of assessment that involves assessment against DTA requirements which may negate tax due.

[mfd101]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The Thai forms do not provide any means for declaring source of income or other information that might enable the RD to decide if income is assessable. To date the system has been to report only assessable income. Any income you teport will be assumed to be assessable. 

If, as in my case, your entire income is excluded by the DTA (Thai/Oz) from being taxed in Thailand, do I still have to declare that income for assessing? Or do I just sit quietly with my TIN & do nothing?

[Sheryl]

10 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

If, as in my case, your entire income is excluded by the DTA (Thai/Oz) from being taxed in Thailand, do I still have to declare that income for assessing? Or do I just sit quietly with my TIN & do nothing?

Precisely the issue.

 

All my remittances are excluded from being taxed in Thailand under DTA. My understanding  is that  barring a significant change to the tax forms, I  should not declare it. Leaving my choices to be: (1) don't file or (2) file a (virtually -- I do have very small interest income from Thai bank) nil return.

 

From prior, painful experience with my local provincial tax office I'm opting for #1. 

[Jingthing]

 

 

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Funds do not have to be assessable for them to be declared, ignored income is required to be declared but it is not assessable to tax.

Define ignored income.

It sounds to me as if you're saying is if an expat is only remitting (EXCLUDED) Social Security income that they must get a TIN and they must file to declare that income.

Where did you get that opinion?
It totally contradicts my current understanding. 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

Look at the publication in which the article appeared (Thai Examiner). Look at the author (Joseph O'Connor) and his past articles.On that basis consider whether this is a credible organization or a credible writer.I know what I think.

 

A very polite way of saying:

 

"this is absolute drivel not worth the paper/ screen it's printed/viewed on, and should be ignored by anyone with half a brain".

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Funds do not have to be assessable for them to be declared, ignored income is required to be declared but it is not assessable to tax.

 

The taxpayer determines which of the funds remitted are income, and which portion of the income is assessable.  Only that self-determined assessable income would be declared.

 

With the current tax forms, there is no way to distinguish assessable vs. non-assessable funds.  Anything declared is considered to be assessable, and taxable.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, rhodie said:

From the article quoted:

The Revenue Department invites taxpayers to perform their duties as good citizens and participate in creating national security by submitting personal income tax forms, Por.Ngor.Dor. 90 and Por.Ngor.Dor. 91, for the 2024 tax year, within the deadline. 

 

"as good citizens" Does not apply to any of us.

Invitation refused. I am not a Thai citizen.

 

2000 baht fine for not submitting a tax return? Bring it on.

 

The mountain will have to come to Mohammed.

 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

Without seeing the actual correct transcript of the TRD DG it's hard to judge. But if the OP interpretation is correct, two things stick out. 1) he only mentioned 'remittances' - and stopped using the words 'global income'; 2) it is still just the reported mumblings of a senior civil servant and not a Government Minister. I'm not even sure if a 'directive' is legally sufficient to make non-immigrant residents pay income tax - that might need an actual legal amendment and published in the Royal Gazette. And it still isn't clear if remittances from long-held foreign bank accounts are taxable at all - anywhere - presumably if they are after-tax savings from many years gone by.

Would not have mentioned global income as subject is tax return filing for calendar year 2024. 

 

Global income taxation is not yet enacted. 

[chiang mai]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

Define ignored income.

It sounds to me as if you're saying is if an expat is only remitting (EXCLUDED) Social Security income that they must get a TIN and they must file to declare that income.

Where did you get that opinion?
It totally contradicts my current understanding. 

The UK tax return requires me to declare income that is subsequently ignored as part of the tax calc., us ssc is one example, because the income does not arise in the UK and I am not uk resident. Whilst this is not currently a feature of the Thai tax return, I expect it to be so this year.

 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The UK tax return requires me to declare income that is subsequently ignored as part of the tax calc., us ssc is one example, because the income does not arise in the UK and I am not uk resident. Whilst this is not currently a feature of the Thai tax return, I expect it to be so this year.

 

You didn’t answer the question. 

[chiang mai]

52 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

Define ignored income.

It sounds to me as if you're saying is if an expat is only remitting (EXCLUDED) Social Security income that they must get a TIN and they must file to declare that income.

Where did you get that opinion?
It totally contradicts my current understanding. 

You've taken my response to that poster out of context, the discussion therein was about the definition of declarable income, not necessarily applicable just to Thailand

 

"I wonder about that.

I used to work for the Revenue Department in my country. Then Income tax was my hobby for many years.

(Does not make me an expert here in Thai taxation).

But I would understand the terms 'declarable' as income, for income tax 'assessment' by the local Tax Office, with a view to determine if income tax money is owed to the country.

If I remember correctly, the unit I initially worked in was referred to as 'Initial assessment'. To determine how much they could easily grab. Because our dear governments always keep the option of 'secondary assessment'.

I suppose that such terms get their own meaning according to rule of law of each country".

 

[Presnock]

9 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This actually makes sense. It is what I thought at the the time of the initial announcements.

 

Doesn't make any sense to have people doing their own thing, certainly with monies that are moving across borders and trying to stamp out tax evasion / avoidance.

People with no assessable income remitted either by LTR or certain pensions, ss etc from the US cannot get a tax id  and also do not have to file the tax forms.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

People with no assessable income remitted either by LTR or certain pensions, ss etc from the US cannot get a tax id  and also do not have to file the tax forms.

According to other posters, having a Thai pink card automatically means you are identified to the TRD, although not necessarily with the same number.

[Presnock]

Just now, Lacessit said:

According to other posters, having a Thai pink card automatically means you are identified to the TRD, although not necessarily with the same number.

 

Just now, Lacessit said:

According to other posters, having a Thai pink card automatically means you are identified to the TRD, although not necessarily with the same number.

From what I have read, but also note I am not a tax expert by any means but if one does not have any ASSESSABLE income then there is no requirement to file nor get a tax ID number.  That is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not filing.  I realize that the TRD will probably contact me to advise them of the source of my monies and show that I do have an LTR visa unless they get that from immigration prior to contacting me.  But, best of luck to all in your endeavors this tax season...I do believe the worldwide income bit will continue to fester as it seems some powerful people don't like it.

[Presnock]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

That's nonsense of course, complete and utter nonsense

just like someone obviously briefed the ASEAN news and African news folks late december when they thought they had already gotten approval for the worldwide income taxation scheme which was reportedly partnered with the 15% corporation tax so it seems to me anyway that someone in a higher seat decided they didn't like the worldwide tax scheme so unless something different happens next year, then the earliest would be 2026 for that scheme to be initiated.  Wonder if we will ever get much current information from the TRD or FInance ministry.

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

According to other posters, having a Thai pink card automatically means you are identified to the TRD, although not necessarily with the same number.

 

That is not so clear to me , ..  according to what I understand based on what the Phuket RD official my wife talked to. ... Yes the official noted my pink-ID number could be my TIN number (for on-line tax submissions) if activated, but because I was remitting no money to Thailand, he would not activate the pink-ID # as a TIN number for on-line tax submissions.

 

According to RD website:  https://www.rd.go.th/14688.html

 

Quote

"The National Identification Number is used instead of the Taxpayer Identification Number ... for those liable to pay personal income tax and income payers who are liable to withhold tax at source. Only natural persons who have and use a National Identification Number in accordance with the Population Registration Act can use the National Identification Number to file personal income tax returns and file withholding tax returns without having to submit a request for an identification number and a taxpayer identification card."

 

I am puzzled by the term  'natural person' .. Does that refer to being borne in Thailand. But if referring to a 'real person' as opposed to a business, then yes a pink-ID holder may not have to request a TIN.

 

Frankly, I find this all very obscure and fuzzy.

 

When the time comes that I restart remitting money to Thailand, I may (or may not) try again applying for a Thai TIN.  I am also on an LTR visa which IMHO makes it even less clear (less likely ???? I don't know) that I will require a Thai TIN (as my Thai sourced income is too small).

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

From what I have read, but also note I am not a tax expert by any means but if one does not have any ASSESSABLE income then there is no requirement to file nor get a tax ID number.  That is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not filing.  I realize that the TRD will probably contact me to advise them of the source of my monies and show that I do have an LTR visa unless they get that from immigration prior to contacting me.  But, best of luck to all in your endeavors this tax season...I do believe the worldwide income bit will continue to fester as it seems some powerful people don't like it.

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Getting a kick lately where the head of the local law firm Integrity Legal (a U.S. attorney who says he's a naturalized Thai citizen) has been posting repeated YT videos saying that many of the expat "tax advisors" giving tax advice to foreigners here are violating Thai law in doing so. And that most expat retirees here, emphasis on his use of the term "most", shouldn't be impacted at all by the recent Revenue Department directives. And advising against everyone running out to file for obtaining a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Presnock]

Just now, chiang mai said:

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

If asd they say they will be working with the immigration to id folks meeting the 180 day stay then they also will be able to see who has an LTR visa exempting taxes on remitted funds and in addition, I have reported over the years that my income was a US civil pension, I even have my passports for my US govt assignment to Thailand so they should be able to figure that out but if they can't, the I will gladly send them the necessary proof of my income and copy of my LTR (which also was provided to the BOI for issuance of that LTR)

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Getting a kick lately where the head of the local law firm Integrity Legal (a U.S. attorney who says he's a naturalized Thai citizen) has been posting repeated YT videos saying that many of the expat "tax advisors" giving tax advice to foreigners here are violating Thai law in doing so.

 

Examples:

 

 

And he's claiming all this won't likely impact most expats, especially Americans:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This appears to relate primarily to one particular charlatan.

[Lacessit]

13 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

From what I have read, but also note I am not a tax expert by any means but if one does not have any ASSESSABLE income then there is no requirement to file nor get a tax ID number.  That is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not filing.  I realize that the TRD will probably contact me to advise them of the source of my monies and show that I do have an LTR visa unless they get that from immigration prior to contacting me.  But, best of luck to all in your endeavors this tax season...I do believe the worldwide income bit will continue to fester as it seems some powerful people don't like it.

My rule with government departments is to volunteer no information.

 

First the TRD has to find me.

 

If I am asked why I did not file a tax return, I respond there is a DTA with Australia. Second, I am transferring savings. Third, I am transferring pension income.  Fourth, I have 500,000 in tax concessions.

 

The only concern I have is the TRD, like Immigration, makes up the rules as they go along.

[Lacessit]

17 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

That is not so clear to me , ..  according to what I understand based on what the Phuket RD official my wife talked to. ... Yes the official noted my pink-ID number could be my TIN number (for on-line tax submissions) if activated, but because I was remitting no money to Thailand, he would not activate the pink-ID # as a TIN number for on-line tax submissions.

 

According to RD website:  https://www.rd.go.th/14688.html

 

 

I am puzzled by the term  'natural person' .. Does that refer to being borne in Thailand. But if referring to a 'real person' as opposed to a business, then yes a pink-ID holder may not have to request a TIN.

 

Frankly, I find this all very obscure and fuzzy.

 

When the time comes that I restart remitting money to Thailand, I may (or may not) try again applying for a Thai TIN.  I am also on an LTR visa which IMHO makes it even less clear (less likely ???? I don't know) that I will require a Thai TIN (as my Thai sourced income is too small).

Welcome to the club. Thailand specializes in obscure and fuzzy.

[Presnock]

17 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

That is not so clear to me , ..  according to what I understand based on what the Phuket RD official my wife talked to. ... Yes the official noted my pink-ID number could be my TIN number (for on-line tax submissions) if activated, but because I was remitting no money to Thailand, he would not activate the pink-ID # as a TIN number for on-line tax submissions.

 

According to RD website:  https://www.rd.go.th/14688.html

 

 

I am puzzled by the term  'natural person' .. Does that refer to being borne in Thailand. But if referring to a 'real person' as opposed to a business, then yes a pink-ID holder may not have to request a TIN.

 

Frankly, I find this all very obscure and fuzzy.

 

When the time comes that I restart remitting money to Thailand, I may (or may not) try again applying for a Thai TIN.  I am also on an LTR visa which IMHO makes it even less clear (less likely ???? I don't know) that I will require a Thai TIN (as my Thai sourced income is too small).

I Am of the opinion based on what I read, if you have any income sourced in Thailand then you are supposed to file the tax forms but I could be wrong - should check the trd web site for Thai sourced income to be sure.