Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[Presnock]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Sure I understand that, as I said earlier, it was journalistic license in a country where English is not the first language. But it doesn't change anything, do you really think the head of the Revenue doesn't want all taxpayers to file a return, including tax resident foreigners? Because if you do, you have an argument that you need to explain why. If you think he doesn't want that, you're just blowing air.

for CM - not sure if you read my two articles reported by the ASEAN news and the African news: these two organizations reporrted to their readers , one on 16 Dec and the other on 19 Dec and it was about that new ACT on taxation including in their articles, that the 15% corporate tax was in effect and that the new worldwide income tax was also in effect a this was the act being passed by the parliament and it meant according to both news agencies, that the Thai govt wanted to implement both the 15% tax and worldwide income tax by 1 January of 2025 but then, I guess some folkks within the parliament did not agree on the worldwide implementaion on 1 January, only the corporate tax.  I can only believe that the finance people indicated to these international news agencies that the Act would be passed in total.  I continue to watch for any retractions or changes to their stories.  In any case, it does appear that soe folks want the worldwide income tax to fit in with the negative tax program favored by Tak... it seems.  We'll see and hear maybe something soon but even today Pichai talks longwinded but hardly says anything new.  Have a good one...

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

for CM - not sure if you read my two articles reported by the ASEAN news and the African news: these two organizations reporrted to their readers , one on 16 Dec and the other on 19 Dec and it was about that new ACT on taxation including in their articles, that the 15% corporate tax was in effect and that the new worldwide income tax was also in effect a this was the act being passed by the parliament and it meant according to both news agencies, that the Thai govt wanted to implement both the 15% tax and worldwide income tax by 1 January of 2025 but then, I guess some folkks within the parliament did not agree on the worldwide implementaion on 1 January, only the corporate tax.  I can only believe that the finance people indicated to these international news agencies that the Act would be passed in total.  I continue to watch for any retractions or changes to their stories.  In any case, it does appear that soe folks want the worldwide income tax to fit in with the negative tax program favored by Tak... it seems.  We'll see and hear maybe something soon but even today Pichai talks longwinded but hardly says anything new.  Have a good one...

Thanks, I had an awareness of those things but didn't follow closely because it all seemed very uncertain.

 

The WW income issue is something apart from the current scenario, it's a significant move, complicated and will take time to agree and pass into law. The minimum tax issue that was implemented on 1 January seems straightforward to me. I think the problem is that many members confuse the issues and can't easily separate them in their minds. So when the media reports that one tax aspect is delayed, some will take that as everything related to tax being delayed.

 

There is no escaping the fact that Por 161 and 162 are up and running and now in the second year, it's the implications of that which should concern members because that's the hear and now, what may happen in the future is something different. What we've seen for the past six months at least is various forms of denial and fear, rolled into one, along with a fair sized sprinkling of bravado, much of which I expect to settle down, after April this year.. 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

When is that going to happen ?
 

Any idea of a timeframe ?

 

I'll worry about Thailand taxing worldwide income when they announce a start date.

Law not yet passed.

 

I expect that once passed, it will go into effect the following calendar year affecting tax returns submitted early the year thereafter. Because it would be odd to change the law mid tax year.

 

it is sounding likely to happen, though. After I have done this year's home country taxes I will do a notional Thai one just to see what if anything extra it will cost me (not filing this year as my only remittances are non-assessable, but switching to global taxation there will be some assessable income).

[Sheryl]

Flaming/bickering posts have been removed.

 

Please keep it civil. No insults.

[oldcpu]

45 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There is no escaping the fact that Por 161 and 162 are up and running and now in the second year, it's the implications of that which should concern members because that's the hear and now, what may happen in the future is something different. What we've seen for the past six months at least is various forms of denial and fear, rolled into one, along with a fair sized sprinkling of bravado, much of which I expect to settle down, after April this year.. 

 

I have been trying to SUMMARIZE a lot of this tax stuff in my own mind (and I may have some details right and some wrong).

 

This thread has me looking again and again at the wording of paw.161 and paw.162.

 

As I noted before (where this quote is my wording) :

 

Quote

 

Paw.161 stated any tax resident who is remitting assessable income into Thailand must take into account such income to calculate income tax. 

 

My understanding Paw.162 then goes on to clarify that that Paw.161 does NOT apply to remitted assessable income before 1-January-2024.

 

 

What I paid attention to this time when I read read 161/162 was Paw.161 and 162 (translations) clearly indicate they are relevant to assessable income. 

 

Of course I am reading translations, but assuming the translations are correct, then as many have ALREADY noted on this thread, it is important to be able to assess the difference between 'assessable income' and 'not assessable income'.   I find that difference is not as easy as i would like to be able to determine,  but quite possibly that is my pessimistic assessment.  

 

AND thus from what I can interpret/read Paw.161/162 together notes pre-1-Jan-2024 income (and presumably savings from before 1-Jan-2024) is not-assessable.  Further, it infers that even if that pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings is brought into Thailand in future years, it is still not assessable income.

 

My understanding is that being not-assessable nominally means it not need to be reported on an income tax return , and hence part of the criteria for deciding if an income tax return is required or not required.  ALL OF THIS  HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE ON THIS THREAD but its buried deep in a massive number of other posts.

 

My speculation is those (Thailand tax residents) who live off of income/savings ALREADY in Thailand from before 1-Jan-2024 have no impact from Paw.161/162 and if they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return.   That's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.  For example, in my case, most money brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident.

 

Further, my speculation is that those (Thailand tax residents)  who bring pre-1-Jan-2024 assessable income into Thailand, ... since that is now categorized as not-assessable based on Paw.161/162, and hence is not nominally to be included in a Thai tax return.  Hence if those bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 income into Thailand and IF they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return.   Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.

 

Hence I speculate (further) that those who might be affected the most are those who bring into Thailand post-31-Dec-2023 assessable income, where such income is still assessable (ie not made not-assessable by a VERY SPECIFIC and relevant DTA for said person).  Then if their foreign assessable income is above a certain Thai threshold amount, these individuals need to very carefully monitor the current situation, as they could be on the hook to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.

 

ie. this could mainly affect those who want to now bring money into Thailand (or did so in tax year 2024) and if that income is considered assessable.

 

In many respects - from what I can read it is really important to read what is assessable income and what is not assessable income.   

 

Confusion (in my mind) can come about where "assessable tax exempt income" is considered by some to be "not-assessable" income  - and THAT difference may be important when it comes to assessing if a Thai tax return needed or not needed (dependent on the situation).  And I do NOT know what is correct there.

 

Of course most people's situations are different (different incomes, different DTAs) so that adds a layer of complexity.

 

These are interesting times - and my hope this is quickly clarified in coming months (however I won't hold my breath waiting for any clarification).

.

 

[nrasmussen]

21 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

The only thing that has changed is the new interpretation of how remitted income may be assessable income if the income is both earned and remitted after 31 December 2023. It seems that nothing else has changed.

 

Yes, it really is that simple, isn’t it? It’s mind-boggling that so many posters on this forum fail to understand that.

 

For the record, I have previously only remitted non-assessable funds, so I haven’t filed any tax returns (except once, to claim a refund for withheld tax on interest from my Thai bank account - and I only did that to obtain a Thai TIN so I could satisfy my home country bank’s requirements).

 

Now, due to this change, some of the funds I remitted in 2024 are assessable, so I will file a tax return. However, no tax will be payable due to deductions and other factors. As a bonus, I’ll even receive a refund for withheld tax on interest (something I hadn’t bothered with before because the small amount wasn’t worth the hassle).

[chiang mai]

19 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I have been trying to SUMMARIZE a lot of this tax stuff in my own mind (and I may have some details right and some wrong).

 

This thread has me looking again and again at the wording of paw.161 and paw.162.

 

As I noted before (where this quote is my wording) :

 

 

What I paid attention to this time when I read read 161/162 was Paw.161 and 162 (translations) clearly indicate they are relevant to assessable income. 

 

Of course I am reading translations, but assuming the translations are correct, then as many have ALREADY noted on this thread, it is important to be able to assess the difference between 'assessable income' and 'not assessable income'.   I find that difference is not as easy as i would like to be able to determine,  but quite possibly that is my pessimistic assessment.  

 

AND thus from what I can interpret/read Paw.161/162 together notes pre-1-Jan-2024 income (and presumably savings from before 1-Jan-2024) is not-assessable.  Further, it infers that even if that pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings is brought into Thailand in future years, it is still not assessable income.

 

My understanding is that being not-assessable nominally means it not need to be reported on an income tax return , and hence part of the criteria for deciding if an income tax return is required or not required.  ALL OF THIS  HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE ON THIS THREAD but its buried deep in a massive number of other posts.

 

My speculation is those (Thailand tax residents) who live off of income/savings ALREADY in Thailand from before 1-Jan-2024 have no impact from Paw.161/162 and if they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return.   That's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.  For example, in my case, most money brought into Thailand when I was a non-resident.

 

Further, my speculation is that those (Thailand tax residents)  who bring pre-1-Jan-2024 assessable income into Thailand, ... since that is now categorized as not-assessable based on Paw.161/162, and hence is not nominally to be included in a Thai tax return.  Hence if those bring in pre-1-Jan-2024 income into Thailand and IF they have no other Thailand income then they may not to have to file a Thai tax return.   Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.

 

Hence I speculate (further) that those who might be affected the most are those who bring into Thailand post-31-Dec-2023 assessable income, where such income is still assessable (ie not made not-assessable by a VERY SPECIFIC and relevant DTA for said person).  Then if their foreign assessable income is above a certain Thai threshold amount, these individuals need to very carefully monitor the current situation, as they could be on the hook to file a Thai tax return. Again that's my opinion - NOT a tax recommendation.

 

ie. this could mainly affect those who want to now bring money into Thailand (or did so in tax year 2024) and if that income is considered assessable.

 

In many respects - from what I can read it is really important to read what is assessable income and what is not assessable income.   

 

Confusion (in my mind) can come about where "assessable tax exempt income" is considered by some to be "not-assessable" income  - and THAT difference may be important when it comes to assessing if a Thai tax return needed or not needed (dependent on the situation).  And I do NOT know what is correct there.

 

Of course most people's situations are different (different incomes, different DTAs) so that adds a layer of complexity.

 

These are interesting times - and my hope this is quickly clarified in coming months (however I won't hold my breath waiting for any clarification).

.

 

I don't think there's any such thing as assessable tax exempt income, is there, it's a contradiction in terms?

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, nrasmussen said:

 

Yes, it really is that simple, isn’t it? It’s mind-boggling that so many posters on this forum fail to understand that.

 

For the record, I have previously only remitted non-assessable funds, so I haven’t filed any tax returns (except once, to claim a refund for withheld tax on interest from my Thai bank account - and I only did that to obtain a Thai TIN so I could satisfy my home country bank’s requirements).

 

Now, due to this change, some of the funds I remitted in 2024 are assessable, so I will file a tax return. However, no tax will be payable due to deductions and other factors. As a bonus, I’ll even receive a refund for withheld tax on interest (something I hadn’t bothered with before because the small amount wasn’t worth the hassle).

Yes it is that simple, why some don't get it escapes me also, perhaps because they don't want to.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Show me in any DTA with Thailand that says an income of any type or description is not reportable if it is remitted to Thailand, should a Thai Government Agency request / mandate it.

All DTAs with Thailand adhere to OECD and UN Model language. There is no language in any of these DTAs that addresses "remittances." Income in the DTAs address income where it arises. And which country gets to tax the owner of that income. Period. Thus, Thailand's DTAs won't require any rewickering, when things go to worldwide taxation by Thailand -- and the remittance baloney goes away.

 

That Thailand wants to put a domestic tweak on DTAs, namely, the remittance aspect -- no problem, as long as it doesn't affect the purpose of the DTA, namely, preventing double taxation. But -- this peculiar Thai remittance aspect is not even part and parcel of any DTA (like the US saving clause). It's just a local law that addresses how Thailand treats income addressed in DTAs. Thus, it's not even a tax treaty override, which are frowned upon, but are allowed:

https://repository.law.umich.edu/book_chapters/330/

[oldcpu]

19 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't think there's any such thing as assessable tax exempt income, is there, it's a contradiction in terms?

 

Well - I guess that is a good question ... but is it really a contradiction? 

 

The current Thai tax forms clearly have areas for exemptions. There is no doubt there. One can simply look at the tax forms.  But ... can an entire income be considered tax-exempt for 1 reason (and thus treated as 'not assessable' ) ?

 

I even know of a Royal Decree that notes in a specific case that 'foreign assessable income is tax exempt'. The Royal Decree is very clear in the use of assessable income and tax exemption of that assessable income.   Does that Royal Decree contradict itself?

 

Don't get me wrong.    I don't know the answer here, but I concede I struggle to see this as clear as perhaps you do. 

 

Fortunately i have a decent life situation where I can wait this out, until hopefully you are clearly shown in practice to be 100% correct.  That is my hope that you are correct.

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

Well - I guess that is a good question ... but is it a really contradiction? 

 

The current Thai tax forms clearly have areas for exemptions. There is no doubt there. One can simply look at the tax forms.  But ... can an entire income be considered tax-exempt for 1 reason?

 

I even know of a Royal Decree that notes in a specific case that 'foreign assessable income is tax exempt'. The Royal Decree is very clear in the use of assessable income and tax exemption of that assessable income.   Does that Royal Decree contradict itself?

 

Don't get me wrong.    I don't know the answer here, but I concede I struggle to see this as clear as perhaps you do. 

 

Fortunately i have a decent life situation where I can wait this out, until hopefully you are clearly show in practice to be 100% correct.  That is my hope.

 

 

"perhaps you do",.......I wish! 

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

That Thailand wants to put a domestic tweak on DTAs, namely, the remittance aspect -- no problem, as long as it doesn't affect the purpose of the DTA, namely, preventing double taxation.

 

Thank you. That is all I have been saying 

 

Thailand can put out a blanket requirement for retiree tax residents to report of all remittances to Thailand.

 

Here is Mr Hart. I actually agree with Mr Hart and Thailand, for whatever reason is being sucked into the OECD

 

 

He is absolutely correct, to be concerned, to be outraged, but it is happening.

 

I do not know the reason why, but things are happening behind the scenes that will impact us people.

[stoicccc]

6 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

For what it's worth, I confirmed that immigration will not get involved in requiring a tax return for each visa extension. I also consulted with a local tax professional and was told that persons with exempt income such as US Social Security don't have to file. 

i have an ED visa and asked about the issue from the language school today and here was the response fwiw.

[anchadian]

Oops.....deleted post

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, anchadian said:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2023/220367PIT90.pdf

That appears to be a 2023 form.

[anchadian]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That appears to be a 2023 form.

Yes, just realized.

[Mutt Daeng]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Thanks.  May I ask, in what province did you apply for your TIN ? 

Buriram

[EVENKEEL]

Check out the Thai News section. Scammers claiming to be from the TRD are already targeting retirees.

[samtam]

6 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Call TRD helpline #1161 for clarification.

 

TINs are for humans without Thai identification numbers, or companies and juristic persons.  Your pink ID does have a Thai identification number, one which you use for tax filing.

 

The TRD person at Sathorn Rd is misinformed.

 

What's the need for an "expat desk", besides offering (hopefully!) English language support?  Many of us have visited TRD offices and filed in person just like ordinary Thai citizens.

 

5 hours ago, Mutt Daeng said:

My TIN is different to my Pink ID/YTB number, even though I presented my Pink ID card and YTB wen I applied. I even attached copies to my application form.

My Pink ID number starts with a 6 but my TIN starts with a 0 (Zero)

Here is a discussion about TIN numbers NOT always being the same as the Pink ID numbers .  

 

 

@Mutt Daeng Thanks. I just lost the will to live with the contradictory opinions. I am only trying to base my responses on what the Thai Revenue Department have said, even if "they are misinformed". Lordy.

[anrcaccount]

33 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Check out the Thai News section. Scammers claiming to be from the TRD are already targeting retirees.

 

Classic!

 

Their #1 targets being anyone who has read a forum thread titled "The Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand" 

 

I'd be surprised if it isn't mentioned somewhere in the the scam script............

[Guavaman]

5 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The current Thai tax forms clearly have areas for exemptions. There is no doubt there. One can simply look at the tax forms.  But ... can an entire income be considered tax-exempt for 1 reason (and thus treated as 'not assessable' ) ?

 

I even know of a Royal Decree that notes in a specific case that 'foreign assessable income is tax exempt'. The Royal Decree is very clear in the use of assessable income and tax exemption of that assessable income.   Does that Royal Decree contradict itself?

 

The concept of assessable income exempt from tax calculation appears in the Revenue Code in the following translation from the RD webpage:  https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

The Tax Code lists 29 types of assessable income that shall be exempt, including --

 

(10) Income derived from an inheritance

 

(13) Compensation against wrongful acts, amount derived from insurance or from funeral assistance scheme

 

(27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year.

 

(28) Income derived from maintenances and support under moral purposes or gifts received in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition from persons who are not ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding ten million baht throughout the tax year.

 

 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Guavaman said:

 

The concept of assessable income exempt from tax calculation appears in the Revenue Code in the following translation from the RD webpage:  https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

The Tax Code lists 29 types of assessable income that shall be exempt, including --

 

(10) Income derived from an inheritance

 

(13) Compensation against wrongful acts, amount derived from insurance or from funeral assistance scheme

 

(27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year.

 

(28) Income derived from maintenances and support under moral purposes or gifts received in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition from persons who are not ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding ten million baht throughout the tax year.

 

 

 

Interesting ... in that list of items of items of assessable income exempt for the purpose of Income tax calculation I note item-17 :

 

        (17) Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations.

 

I believe this is very relevant.

 

I am asking myself ... perhaps this includes LTR-Wealthy Pensioner/Wealthy Global Citizen assessable income exempt from tax in accordance with Royal Decree-743. (ie it can be considered a Ministerial regulation ? )  And hence I speculate if that is so, it should not be included for income tax calculation and thus not included on a tax form - where I speculate further that no Thai tax return is thus needed if such is the only income of the holder of the LTR-WP/WGC.

 

Further, I wonder if income covered by a specific Double Tax Agreement (DTA) (for example such as a pension from Canada where the Thai-Canadian DTA states it is to only be taxed in Canada), does that then also come under "17" (ministerial regulations)?  ... as I suspect ? (albeit don't know) that there is a Thai ministerial regulation acknowledging the existence of a DTA  and as such covered under item-17.

 

If so, this may also be relevant to some (not all) other country DTA (although EVERY person should check the DTA of the source country (with Thailand) of their income to assess this aspect)  - as it could mean no Thai tax return needed (if it is the only income source) - again very very very dependent on what the DTA says.

 

Further, given Paw-161/162 are ministerial documents (and perhaps considered regulations per item-17) then they too for income before 1-Jan-2024 brought into Thailand note such shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation (and also not included on a Thai tax return). Which could mean no Thai tax return needed if pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings the only income.

 

Clearly I am speculating a lot, but this item-17 may be the answer to some of my puzzling.

 

I am now just as curious to see what the Thai 2024 (English language) tax return form will state , but I am also speculating (again) that there will be minimal change from the 2023 Thai tax return form and that my speculation could have some validity.

 

The above is me speculating - this is NOT, I repeat NOT, intended to give anyone advice as to whether they should or should not file a Thai tax return. 

 

Hopefully others will chime in and correct my speculations.

.

 

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, Guavaman said:

 

The concept of assessable income exempt from tax calculation appears in the Revenue Code in the following translation from the RD webpage:  https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Section 42 The assessable income of the following categories shall be exempt for the purpose of income tax calculation:

 

The Tax Code lists 29 types of assessable income that shall be exempt, including --

 

(10) Income derived from an inheritance

 

(13) Compensation against wrongful acts, amount derived from insurance or from funeral assistance scheme

 

(27) Income derived from maintenance and support or gifts from ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding twenty million Baht throughout the tax year.

 

(28) Income derived from maintenances and support under moral purposes or gifts received in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with custom and tradition from persons who are not ascendants, descendants or spouse, but only for the portion not exceeding ten million baht throughout the tax year.

 

 

 

It might be semantic but is doesn't seem right that income is assessable and then immediately made exempt , it surely is exempt income from the outset, although there's little point dwelling on this.

 

It might be sensible to expand that list to include assessable income that is exempt under the terms of a DTA also, can anyone see a reason why not?