Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[dinga]

1 minute ago, topt said:

I must be misunderstanding something because to me the "Quote" you provided is saying that income from 2023 and remitted in 2024 would be "exempted" but not 2024 income remitted in 2024 - which is what @dinga was saying Expat tax were saying?

I don't understand the relevance of this - probably me missing something?

That makes 2 of us that don't understand.......

 

My understanding of ETT;s advice re. LTR visa holders:

 

1.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2023 but remitted to Thailand during 2024  -  No Tax Payable on such remittances

2.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2024 and was remitted to Thailand during 2024, such income is subject to Thai Tax and likely needs to be reported in the Tax Return to be lodged by 31 March 2025.

 

  

[topt]

4 minutes ago, dinga said:

That makes 2 of us that don't understand.......

 

My understanding of ETT;s advice re. LTR visa holders:

 

1.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2023 but remitted to Thailand during 2024  -  No Tax Payable on such remittances

2.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2024 and was remitted to Thailand during 2024, such income is subject to Thai Tax and likely needs to be reported in the Tax Return to be lodged by 31 March 2025.

 

  

Agreed. Unless the presumably English translation of the Thai quotation is wrong.......maybe,possibly..........

I don't have an LTR so no dog in the fight. 

[jwest10]

49 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I respect your skeptical POV.

From my POV, what you are proposing to do would be quite complicated and if there is a choice I would prefer to keep things as simple as possible, yes even if it did subject me to some probably small amount of tax. 

It's also a risky tactic from the POV of a higher likelihood of being subject to an audit. In my opinion, anyway.

You may be right. You may be wrong. I have no idea. I am not qualified to make that judgement.

I still plan to eventually see a Thai tax lawyer that I have in mind and get his opinion when this does become an issue for me (probably not for some time).

By then given he would be dealing with retired expat haven Jomtien he might actually have some insider knowledge and experience about this US retirement account issue.

Sincerely, good luck. 

Expat tax forget it they not at all helpful and only want your money !!!

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Expat tax forget it they not at all helpful and only want your money !!!

Every business wants our money.

Not sure that in itself would disqualify them.

[anchadian]

About an hour ago:

 

 

[oldcpu]

25 minutes ago, topt said:

I must be misunderstanding something because to me the "Quote" you provided is saying that income from 2023 and remitted in 2024 would be "exempted" but not 2024 income remitted in 2024 - which is what @dinga was saying Expat tax were saying?

I don't understand the relevance of this - probably me missing something?

 

Where the Royal Decree states "in the previous year" it refers to the income.   It does not say anything about when the remittance must take place or must not take place.  What was noted is, in my opinion, a wrong interpretation by ExpatTaxThailand.

 

As noted , this has already been debated, there has been no agreement from the different views, so there is likely nothing to be gained by re-opening this debate.  ...

 

IMHO time will tell as to whom is right and whom is wrong.

 

[oldcpu]

26 minutes ago, dinga said:

That makes 2 of us that don't understand.......

 

My understanding of ETT;s advice re. LTR visa holders:

 

1.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2023 but remitted to Thailand during 2024  -  No Tax Payable on such remittances

2.  If income was earnt overseas in (say) 2024 and was remitted to Thailand during 2024, such income is subject to Thai Tax and likely needs to be reported in the Tax Return to be lodged by 31 March 2025.

 

  

 

 The Royal Decree does not talk about remittance dates.  It talks of assessable income date.  It simply, at the end of section-5, states 'and brought into Thailand'.  Thinking there is a relevant date for the remittance is IMHO a wrong interpretation of the Royal Decree translation.  Again, I see little point in reopening the debate.

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It's also a risky tactic from the POV of a higher likelihood of being subject to an audit. In my opinion, anyway.

Actually, if you decide your IRA remittance is not assessable income, then, if you file a Thai tax return -- there's nothing on your Thai tax return to indicate your IRA income. What, exactly, would come into TRD's focus to warrant an audit?

 

No, my argument, I'm sure, would be appreciated in any audit -- and worst case -- you then pay the tax owed, plus interest. But, this revisits the argument -- why even declare it, and pay tax on it -- when the chance that it will be identified for an audit is almost zip?

 

 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Actually, if you decide your IRA remittance is not assessable income, then, if you file a Thai tax return -- there's nothing on your Thai tax return to indicate your IRA income. What, exactly, would come into TRD's focus to warrant an audit?

 

No, my argument, I'm sure, would be appreciated in any audit -- and worst case -- you then pay the tax owed, plus interest. But, this revisits the argument -- why even declare it, and pay tax on it -- when the chance that it will be identified for an audit is almost zip?

 

 

My understanding is that they can see total remittances. I do well understand your point though. I would never have your confidence about this though as said at a later date I will check this issue with a Thai tax lawyer who was recommended to me. 

[jwest10]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding is that they can see total remittances. I do well understand your point though. I would never have your confidence about this though as said at a later date I will check this issue with a Thai tax lawyer who was recommended to me. 

Hope he does not charge you high prices!!!

[JimGant]

39 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding is that they can see total remittances.

Not if you don't show them on your Thai tax return. And, yes, there are some folks, even on this thread, that would like for TRD to demand you show non assessable income on your tax return. We ain't there yet -- and, hopefully, never will be

[NoDisplayName]

These forms are not same-same!

 

I have my receipt copies of 2023 an d 2024 Thai forms submitted online.  I've noticed one change so far on page 2, No.3 Assessable Income under 40(4).

 

2023 #5  Income from sale of units of SSF (super savings fund)

          #6  other

 

2024 #5  Income from sale of units of SSF (super savings fund)

         #6   Income from sale of units of ESG (sustainable growth fund)

         #7  other

 

The English version of 2023 PND.90 does not match the Thai version.

         #5  Income from sale of units of SSF (super savings fund)

        #6 does not exist.

 

Wonder if anyone has gone line-by-line comparing English and Thai hardcopy tax forms to see what other discrepancies exist.

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Not if you don't show them on your Thai tax return. And, yes, there are some folks, even on this thread, that would like for TRD to demand you show non assessable income on your tax return. We ain't there yet -- and, hopefully, never will be

My understanding which may be wrong is that remittance information is available to Thai Revenue regardless.  Of course it wouldn't tell them much. For example  an American remitting only social security would have no need for a tin or to file. 

You're probably right about low risk of audit but as said I don't have your confidence to argue why it's ok to not claim IRA as accessable pension income.

[Jingthing]

59 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Hope he does not charge you high prices!!!

Possibly free for a short first meetlng.

Anyway my main issue is IRAs and I still think by the time I actually have to deal with this that there will probably be actual reports about this for the Pattaya office.

[JimGant]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're probably right about low risk of audit but as said I don't have your confidence to argue why it's ok to not claim IRA as accessable pension income.

Well, up to you, of course. But I'm certain (unless TRD publishes something that supports Expatthai's position) my argument would have a great chance to prevail -- but at worst, would certainly show a no tax evasion scenario. Thus, pay the tax, plus interest. But, a 100% chance of paying Thai tax on your IRA, vs a 1% estimated chance of random compliance audit, and then paying tax on your IRA -- doesn't seem like a contest. Anyway, based on your previous postings of your annual income, you would probably owe no Thai taxes anyway, after TEDA subtractions. So, this whole drill is only about needing to file 'cause you break the 60/120/220 filing thresholds.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, up to you, of course. But I'm certain (unless TRD publishes something that supports Expatthai's position) my argument would have a great chance to prevail -- but at worst, would certainly show a no tax evasion scenario. Thus, pay the tax, plus interest. But, a 100% chance of paying Thai tax on your IRA, vs a 1% estimated chance of random compliance audit, and then paying tax on your IRA -- doesn't seem like a contest. Anyway, based on your previous postings of your annual income, you would probably owe no Thai taxes anyway, after TEDA subtractions. So, this whole drill is only about needing to file 'cause you break the 60/120/220 filing thresholds.

I'm not sure the penalty would be that lenient.

[Sheryl]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding which may be wrong is that remittance information is available to Thai Revenue regardless.  Of course it wouldn't tell them much. For example  an American remitting only social security would have no need for a tin or to file. 

You're probably right about low risk of audit but as said I don't have your confidence to argue why it's ok to not claim IRA as accessable pension income.

The interest portion if earned while a Thai tax redident would be assessable but a case might be made that the capital amount is in effect savings from income prior to 2024 (and indeed probably prior to becoming a Thai tax resident). Let me know what you ultimately find out.

 

I have a somewhat similar issue further (potentially) complicated by fact that the invome portion was from US government employment. 

[jwest10]

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not sure the penalty would be that lenient.

I am nor sure but seen 2K fine and very unlucky if caught but it depends on how large the amounts and for most of us can claim allowances of 500 or 560K and more than our income and have been stated several times that I do not need to file!!!

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Not if you don't show them on your Thai tax return.

Not hard for them to compel banks to report annual remittance over the threshold to the TRD.  

 

In Australia, every transaction over $10,000AUD is reported to AUSTRAC, a government agency. 

[NoDisplayName]

I filed my 2567 return online last Saturday, using the Thai forms of course.  Only income listed was Thai-sourced interest and dividends.  Remittances were non-assessable, so not declared.  Requested full refund of all taxes withheld.  Return was accepted, printed out final copy and tax receipt.

 

Checked online status this evening, status is "approved and refunded."  Once the refund letter is printed, I should get an SMS notifying that a refund has been mailed.  Expect to receive that in 2-3 weeks.

 

No upload of documentation required (bank withholding statement, dividend receipts).  TRD appears to have access to bank and brokerage databases to confirm my submission.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

The interest portion if earned while a Thai tax redident would be assessable but a case might be made that the capital amount is in effect savings from income prior to 2024 (and indeed probably prior to becoming a Thai tax resident). Let me know what you ultimately find out.

 

I have a somewhat similar issue further (potentially) complicated by fact that the invome portion was from US government employment. 

As you can read before my current understanding is as I posted before seeing US retirement accounts as very different than regular bank savings or regular outside retirement account investments. To add for regular outside retirement account investments I think the Thai rules are clear. It's irrelevant what you held before 2024. The accounting is done based on a profit cost basis, if any, if remitted as a Thai tax resident. But if you made that move before 2024 and banked it then that cash would be excluded.

I don't think we're going to know anything totally definitive on this issue for a long time and even then it may be office by office.

Reports of audit results where someone is challenged for not doing it the way I posted would be great precedent, but who knows when or if such reports will come forward.

On the other hand, doing it the way I currently understand as correct would create the maximum tax liability of any interpretation, so there would be zero reason for that to be audited. As the Integrity Legal guy says -- no taxing authority is in the business of helping people pay LESS tax.

 

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, jwest10 said:

I am nor sure but seen 2K fine and very unlucky if caught but it depends on how large the amounts and for most of us can claim allowances of 500 or 560K and more than our income and have been stated several times that I do not need to file!!!

I've heard double the tax due is a common penalty. 

 

[MikeN]

Just as a possible FYI for somebody, I was talking today with an acquaintance of my wife, who happens to be chief clerk of our (very) small local revenue office so biggest fish in a very small pond. She speaks reasonable English and is married to a foreigner so I don't think there were any "lost in translation" errors. She told me that as my military pension is non assessable under the DTA with Australia as long as any other income I bring in is under the 220,000 baht threshold for a married person I don't have to file a tax return here.

hopefully she is correct !

[oldcpu]

20 minutes ago, MikeN said:

Just as a possible FYI for somebody, I was talking today with an acquaintance of my wife, who happens to be chief clerk of our (very) small local revenue office so biggest fish in a very small pond. She speaks reasonable English and is married to a foreigner so I don't think there were any "lost in translation" errors. She told me that as my military pension is non assessable under the DTA with Australia as long as any other income I bring in is under the 220,000 baht threshold for a married person I don't have to file a tax return here.

hopefully she is correct !

 

It looks to me that she is correct (as long as you did not somehow obtain Thai citizenship).  I was curious so I took a quick look at the Australia-Thai DTA.

 

Her assessment is consistent with Article-19 (Government Service) of the Australia-Thailand Double Tax Agreement (DTA), which states (I edited it a bit):

 

2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (ie Australia) .... shall be taxable only in that State ( i.e. Australia).  

 

Military service is IMHO considered Government Service.  The noted DTA goes on to note thou, if one is a citizen of Thailand (and still managed to get this Australian pension), then the Australian government service pension would in that case be taxable in Thailand.

 

Is your wife Thai ?  .... If so, does she get your Australia pension when you pass away if she survives you?  If so, she may have to pay tax in Thailand on such (and not to Australia) in the sad/unfortunate case if you were to pass away.

 

I could be wrong in the above, but this is how this looks to me (as noted, I was curious - I have a number of Australian friends).

 

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Her assessment is consistent with Article-19 (Government Service) of the Australia-Thailand Double Tax Agreement (DTA), which states (I edited it a bit):

 

2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of government functions to one of the Contracting States (ie Australia) .... shall be taxable only in that State ( i.e. Australia).  

I agree. 

 

This has been the source of a lot of debate in the Australia Pension thread.  Members just saw the word "pension" in the DTA and jumped to the conclusion that it is tax exempt in Australia and Thailand. 

 

Article 19 sets out only "government service pensions" are included in the DTA, and the aged pension is not a government service pension. 

 

Yes, she will get a war widows pension.

[redwood1]

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not sure the penalty would be that lenient.

 

Hey the government is very lenient......Tony got off Scott free after not paying  taxes on his stock sale worth billions.....Yep not a single baht paid.....Ever.....

[roo860]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I've heard double the tax due is a common penalty. 

 

Thanks for that, mine will be zero, that's a winner 🏆 

[The Cyclist]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Checked online status this evening, status is "approved and refunded."  Once the refund letter is printed, I should get an SMS notifying that a refund has been mailed.  Expect to receive that in 2-3 weeks.

 

No upload of documentation required (bank withholding statement, dividend receipts).  TRD appears to have access to bank and brokerage databases to confirm my submission.

 

To confirm and approve within a week, with no supporting documentation suggests 2 things.

 

1. The refund was below a threshold that does not require checking ( Which is possible, but I dont think is likely )

 

2. Or, as you correctly point out, the RD has access to bank and brokerage accounts.

 

Which might put the wind up some, but does not help those that are legit, looking to stay legit and are only looking for a yay or nay on whether they have to actually file anything.

[JimGant]

13 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Not hard for them to compel banks to report annual remittance over the threshold to the TRD

The majority of my remittances are non assessable monies -- govt pension, social security, savings, etc. That lump sum would have no value to TRD, unless the assessable amount is isolated. And that would require self-assessment from me.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

To confirm and approve within a week, with no supporting documentation suggests 2 things.

Actually it suggests one thing -- self-assessment is alive and well. Thailand is acting like an OECD nation, where only a cursory math check is done by algorithm before a refund check is issued. Only is your return possibly scrutinized in greater detail in the next year or two or three. And if there's a potential problem, you'll hear about it.

 

Obviously if you pass the math test, you'll get the refund check and the benefit of any doubt, at least initially. To hold up checks for anything more than a quick glance at your return -- would not be prudent.