Mahout charged for elephant goring Spanish woman in Thailand

[quake]

3 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Using goats as mahouts now !! ….. where will it end ?

 

We found the little rascal.

Just got to get him back to the elephant farm now.

 

[ujayujay]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Explain to me how this mahout isn't just being used as a convenient scapegoat for the sins of an entire industry?

No need to reexamine the entire industry if you can pin it on one presumably not powerful man. 

OK, you think the Mahut has no responsibility towards the customers

[John Drake]

It seems to me that a lot of these elephant sanctuaries are suspect. Wasn't the Swiss doctor kicker in Phuket running one of these "non-profits" and living high off the hog?

[MikeandDow]

13 minutes ago, John Drake said:

It seems to me that a lot of these elephant sanctuaries are suspect. Wasn't the Swiss doctor kicker in Phuket running one of these "non-profits" and living high off the hog?

According to World Animal Protection

3837 elephants in 357 venues across Asia and found that 63% were living in severely inadequate conditions. When not performing, they were restrained by short chains in noisy, dirty conditions, had poor diets, and received very limited medical care.

[PETERTHEEATER]

7 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Using goats as mahouts now !! ….. where will it end ?

Butt.....it's a nanny state.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

[connda]

7 hours ago, Oliver Holzerfilled said:

Elephants can be dangerous and unpredictable for tourists unless you know how to handle them. 

And then?  Not even then.  Elephants are dangerous and unpredictable. Especially when they are hormonal. Elephants in musk are freaking deadly.

People + Elephants = Bad Outcomes That Are Then Blamed on The Elephant and mahout.  Observation only parks at the most. 

From India.  And you expected what?  Friendly Dumbo?
An 80 kg mahout can not control a 4000 to 8000 lb Asian elephant.  Best of luck for anyone who thinks so. So in this video, it's the mahout's fault that the elephant went ballistic?  That little guy sitting on top of the elephant isn't in control of anything.  It's the nature of elephants.  They are not docile creatures.  If you want a docile elephant, buy a stuffed furry one from a toy store. 
 

[fredwiggy]

4 hours ago, RoyLee said:

Says a female elephant gored her, but only males have tusks. What little I've seen of elephants here (in Pai), the herds accessible by the public were all female. When the gf asked why, the mahout said they have trouble hiring mahouts otherwise. 

Both male and female elephants have tusks, although they are smaller in Asians

[connda]

4 hours ago, RoyLee said:

Says a female elephant gored her, but only males have tusks. What little I've seen of elephants here (in Pai), the herds accessible by the public were all female. When the gf asked why, the mahout said they have trouble hiring mahouts otherwise. 

 

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Both male and female elephants have tusks, although they are smaller in Asians

Ditto - Female Asian Elephants can have tusks, but not as pronounced as males. 

[ChipButty]

I disagree with these elephant places, I've lived long enough to know it's all about money, what about the guy who booted the doctor? he seemed to live a life of luxury on his elephant farm, 

There is companies run guided tours from America to these elephant farms donating thousands of dollars 

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Explain to me how this mahout isn't just being used as a convenient scapegoat for the sins of an entire industry?

No need to reexamine the entire industry if you can pin it on one presumably not powerful man. 

 

Well said....       

 

 

[richard_smith237]

45 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

5 hours ago, RoyLee said:

Says a female elephant gored her, but only males have tusks. What little I've seen of elephants here (in Pai), the herds accessible by the public were all female. When the gf asked why, the mahout said they have trouble hiring mahouts otherwise. 

Both male and female elephants have tusks, although they are smaller in Asians

 

African Elephants: In both African savanna elephants and African forest elephants females typically have tusks which are usually smaller and thinner than those of males.

 

Asian Elephants: Female Asian elephants usually do not have prominent tusks. Instead, they may have small tusk-like structures called "tushes" that are not visible unless the mouth is open.

 

'Gored her' implies tusks were used (gored implies sharp object), without getting too graphical - its possible the article used the term 'gored' rather loosely when mauled might be a more correct term.

[MikeandDow]

Lots of bad reporting on this killing  some say "male elephant",  "female","pierced her with its tusk," "slapped her with its trunk"  but it does not matter she died,  She should not have been doing this,  These are wild animals Elephants are Not domestcated, not Pets, Visiting captive elephant experiences is clearly not an ethical or responsible act. Elephants are highly dangerous and should not be allowed to be near tourists it should be  observation only, Elephants won’t naturally move close enough to humans to be touched. If you’re allowed to touch an elephant, it means that the animal has experienced brutal training methods for the amusement of tourists.Currently, one person is killed on average for each male elephant being held in captivity. As well as these direct killings, close contact with captive elephants can pass dangerous diseases such as tuberculosis to tourists and handlers. none of this is published by the tourist boards i wonder why !!

as far as who to blame well that is a can of worms !! at a guess it should be the mahout all the way to the goverment, negligience to unsafe practise

[fredwiggy]

This isn't the full video I saw earlier somewhere but it tells what happened. Elephants belong in the wild and are abused to do tricks, and have been for years.............https://www.newsflare.com/video/656395/elephant-irritated-by-handler-poking-her-with-stick-tramples-him-to-death

[balo]

Best way to protect the elephants is to let them live freely away from humans.  Stupid tourists think they are saving the animals , instead they are making the owners of these projects very rich. 

 
 

[MikeandDow]

3 hours ago, balo said:

Best way to protect the elephants is to let them live freely away from humans.  Stupid tourists think they are saving the animals , instead they are making the owners of these projects very rich. 

 
 

You have to be relistic, to save the elephants in Thailand you will have to have these

sanctuary  its ALL about money Thais do not care about the elepants,  there are a few observation-only sanctuary  now in thailand which is a small step in the right direction, Tourist need to be educated in this but do you think the Goverment tourist board will do that NO !! thais lose to much money !! 

 

[cheerz]

Unfortunately it's all about money to survive. Tourists need to stop riding,washing just observe & admire but tourists, won't so don't blame the Elephants. Poor animals being used to earn money... Dancing bears,monkeys here elephants so sad. No tourists no problems Tourist agencies can help this but their greed does not help these animals.

[MikeandDow]

9 minutes ago, cheerz said:

Unfortunately it's all about money to survive. Tourists need to stop riding,washing just observe & admire but tourists, won't so don't blame the Elephants. Poor animals being used to earn money... Dancing bears,monkeys here elephants so sad. No tourists no problems Tourist agencies can help this but their greed does not help these animals.

100%  the blame  for this is the Thai goverment no enforcement or regualations, tourists are NOT informed of the Dangers 

[kwilco]

Rescue

Sanctuary

Natural

Ethical

Educational

Local Community

 

THese are just some of the cliches employed by the elephant atraction ins=dustry in Thailand.

 

Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference.

Why elephants are being held captive on islands is inexplicable

On 1/9/2025 at 3:18 AM, MikeandDow said:

And so he should be !! he was negligent,  did not control the animal as was his job, as for the Koh Yao Elephant Care Centre they by allowing unskilled persons to bath a wild elephant they should be charged as well

Mahout is another grossly misused word - it has implications that just don't apply in the husbandry of elephants in tourism.

[MikeandDow]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Rescue

Sanctuary

Natural

Ethical

Educational

Local Community

 

THese are just some of the cliches employed by the elephant atraction ins=dustry in Thailand.

 

Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference.

Why elephants are being held captive on islands is inexplicable

Mahout is another grossly misused word - it has implications that just don't apply in the husbandry of elephants in tourism.

Why should there be no breeding !! you understand elephants ARE an endanged species !! so by no breeding you want the Elephants to die out !! strange!!

[kwilco]

16 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Why should there be no breeding !! you understand elephants ARE an endanged species !! so by no breeding you want the Elepnats to die out !! strange!!

 

16 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Why should there be no breeding !! you understand elephants ARE an endanged species !! so by no breeding you want the Elepnats to die out !! strange!!

 

Breeding elephants in captivity has nothing to to do with saving and endangered species.

THere are about 4000 elephants in captivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade.

In the wild there are about 3000 in Thailand there problems come from encroachment on their habit and human poaching and conflict

[kwilco]

Breeding elephants in captivity in Thailand can be considered bad for several reasons:

Ethical Concerns: Captive breeding often raises ethical issues related to animal welfare. Elephants may suffer from stress, unnatural living conditions, and restricted social interactions compared to their natural habitat.

 

Conservation Impact -  While captive breeding programs may aim to conserve the species, in reality it has negative impacts on wild populations. This includes potential genetic issues in captive-bred elephants and disruption of natural behaviours critical for survival in the wild. Internationally, great care is taken in selecting genetically diverse animals of the same sub species etc but casual breeding in camps in Thailand does none of this.

 

In Thailand, captive-bred elephants are almost exclusively used in the tourism industry for activities like elephant rides, shows, or performances. This can lead to exploitation, as elephants are subjected to harsh training methods and unnatural behaviours for the sake of entertainment.

 

Focusing on captive breeding diverts attention and resources away from preserving natural habitats and addressing the root causes of habitat loss and human-elephant conflicts.

 

There is no long-term viability: captive breeding does not ensure the long-term survival of elephants as it does not address broader conservation challenges, such as habitat protection, human-wildlife conflict mitigation, and sustainable development. It just supplies the tourist industry with baby elephants that boost tourist numbers at the attraction.

 

In summary, while captive breeding seldom plays a role in conservation efforts, especially for species at risk, it should be approached scientifically and ethically so it contributes positively to both the welfare of individual animals having to give birth (and mate) and the conservation of the species as a whole.

[MikeandDow]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

 

Breeding elephants in captivity has nothing to to do with saving and endangered species.

THere are about 4000 elephants in ca[ptivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade.

In the wild there are about 3000 in Thailand there problems come from encroachment on their habit and human poaching and conflict

will correct you on some of the FACTS

Wild elephants in Thailand are outnumbered by those kept in captivity.

Around 2798 captive elephants live in tourism venues across the country. To put this in context, nearly 75% of captive elephants are used for tourist entertainment in Asia.

52,000 Asian elephants currently living in the wild. Asian elephants are an endangered species,

so please explain how non breeding can save the endangered species if a species does not breed it dies out please explane

[MikeandDow]

3 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Breeding elephants in captivity in Thailand can be considered bad for several reasons:

Ethical Concerns: Captive breeding often raises ethical issues related to animal welfare. Elephants may suffer from stress, unnatural living conditions, and restricted social interactions compared to their natural habitat.

 

Conservation Impact -  While captive breeding programs may aim to conserve the species, in reality it has negative impacts on wild populations. This includes potential genetic issues in captive-bred elephants and disruption of natural behaviours critical for survival in the wild. Internationally, great care is taken in selecting genetically diverse animals of the same sub species etc but casual breeding in camps in Thailand does none of this.

 

In Thailand, captive-bred elephants are almost exclusively used in the tourism industry for activities like elephant rides, shows, or performances. This can lead to exploitation, as elephants are subjected to harsh training methods and unnatural behaviours for the sake of entertainment.

 

Focusing on captive breeding diverts attention and resources away from preserving natural habitats and addressing the root causes of habitat loss and human-elephant conflicts.

 

There is no long-term viability: captive breeding does not ensure the long-term survival of elephants as it does not address broader conservation challenges, such as habitat protection, human-wildlife conflict mitigation, and sustainable development. It just supplies the tourist industry with baby elephants that boost tourist numbers at the attraction.

 

In summary, while captive breeding seldom plays a role in conservation efforts, especially for species at risk, it should be approached scientifically and ethically so it contributes positively to both the welfare of individual animals having to give birth (and mate) and the conservation of the species as a whole.

Oh you have now change to Captive breeding !!  quote: Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference. make you mind up !!

What the rest of you post is alluding to is "domestication" and correct Elephants should NOT be Domestcated

[kwilco]

32 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

will correct you on some of the FACTS

Wild elephants in Thailand are outnumbered by those kept in captivity.

Around 2798 captive elephants live in tourism venues across the country. To put this in context, nearly 75% of captive elephants are used for tourist entertainment in Asia.

52,000 Asian elephants currently living in the wild. Asian elephants are an endangered species,

so please explain how non breeding can save the endangered species if a species does not breed it dies out please explane

Never argue with a person who thinks they know the "FACTS" they just not worth it.

- one thing we do KNOW is that Thailand does not accurately record elephant numbers

 

As I said"

"THere are about 4000 elephants in captivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade.

In the wild there are about 3000 " as far s I can see this is OUTNUMBERING in most maths.

The wild population is a BREEDING population and numbers in fact are increasing slightly.

You can't release captive elephants in to the wild.

Elephants are part of an eco-system in order to keep the populations healthy you need to address the whole enivironment and habitat.

Thailand has by far the largest  captive elephant population of any country - Thailand the "official" figure is 3783 whereas in ALL of India it is less than 3500. Cambodia has between 70 and 200.

See above my post why breeding these creatures is a bad isea.

Never argue with a person who thinks they know the "FACTS" they just not worth it. So here goes……

- one thing we do KNOW is that Thailand does not accurately record elephant numbers

 

As I said - "There are about 4000 elephants in captivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade. In the wild there are about 3000 "  - as far as I can see this is OUTNUMBERING in most people’s maths.

 

The wild population is a BREEDING population and numbers in fact are increasing slightly.

You can't release captive elephants in to the wild.

Elephants are part of an eco-system in order to keep the populations healthy you need to address the whole environment and habitat.

 

Thailand has by far the largest  captive elephant population of any country - Thailand the "official" figure is 3783 whereas in ALL of India it is less than 3500. Cambodia has between 70 and 200.

See above my post why breeding these creatures is a bad idea.

 

Thailand has a big captive elephant problem

This originated in the 1980s when logging was made illegal and about 4000 elephants were made unemployed.

The idea was that the private sector would look after these elephants until the population dwindled to zero. 

If that had worked the current population would be approximately 1950 elephants from the original captive population of 3900 in 1989 would still be alive in Thailand by 2024, assuming a constant survival rate and an average lifespan of 70 years. In fact captive lifespan averages out around 40 to 50 years. this means the population has been augmented to meet the demands of tourism This has been achieved by unregulated breeding,  illegal importing and smuggling of elephants from the wild - (typically killing the mothers and taking the babies). Thai is a signatory to the international CITES treaty that forbids all this but once in Thailand there are few laws protecting private ownership of elephants (less than owning a pickup truck) and even less enforcement.

 there is no thorough inspection of elephant attractions and the register for keeping and chipping is simply not enforced - it also allows for false identification of smuggled animals.

 

So breeding of elephants in captivity is dangerous for the welfare of the mothers – and only breeds for further exploitation in the tourist industry and has no benefits for conservation.

Thailand has a big captive elephant problem

THis originated in the 1980s when logging was made illegal and about 4000 elephants were made unemployed.

THe idea was that the private sector would look after these elephants until the population dwindled to zero. 

If that had worked the current population would be approximately 1950 elephants from the original captive population of 3900 in 1989 would still be alive in Thailand by 2024, assuming a constant survival rate and an average lifespan of 70 years. In fact captive lifespan averages out around 40 to 50 years. this means the population has been augmented to meet the demands of tourism THis has been achieved by unregulated breeding,  illegal importing and smuggling of elephants from the wild - (typically killing the mothers and taking the babies). Thai is a signatory to the international CITES treaty that forbids all this but once in Thailand there are few laws protecting private ownership of elephants (less than owning a pickup truck) and even less enforcement.

 there is no thorough inspection of wlephant attractions and the register for keeping and chipping is simply not eng=forced - it also allows for false identification of smuggled animals.

[MikeandDow]

22 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Never argue with a person who thinks they know the "FACTS" they just not worth it.

- one thing we do KNOW is that Thailand does not accurately record elephant numbers

 

As I said"

"THere are about 4000 elephants in captivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade.

In the wild there are about 3000 " as far s I can see this is OUTNUMBERING in most maths.

The wild population is a BREEDING population and numbers in fact are increasing slightly.

You can't release captive elephants in to the wild.

Elephants are part of an eco-system in order to keep the populations healthy you need to address the whole enivironment and habitat.

Thailand has by far the largest  captive elephant population of any country - Thailand the "official" figure is 3783 whereas in ALL of India it is less than 3500. Cambodia has between 70 and 200.

See above my post why breeding these creatures is a bad isea.

Never argue with a person who thinks they know the "FACTS" they just not worth it. So here goes……

- one thing we do KNOW is that Thailand does not accurately record elephant numbers

 

As I said - "There are about 4000 elephants in captivity - almost all involved in the tourist trade. In the wild there are about 3000 "  - as far as I can see this is OUTNUMBERING in most people’s maths.

 

The wild population is a BREEDING population and numbers in fact are increasing slightly.

You can't release captive elephants in to the wild.

Elephants are part of an eco-system in order to keep the populations healthy you need to address the whole environment and habitat.

 

Thailand has by far the largest  captive elephant population of any country - Thailand the "official" figure is 3783 whereas in ALL of India it is less than 3500. Cambodia has between 70 and 200.

See above my post why breeding these creatures is a bad idea.

 

Thailand has a big captive elephant problem

This originated in the 1980s when logging was made illegal and about 4000 elephants were made unemployed.

The idea was that the private sector would look after these elephants until the population dwindled to zero. 

If that had worked the current population would be approximately 1950 elephants from the original captive population of 3900 in 1989 would still be alive in Thailand by 2024, assuming a constant survival rate and an average lifespan of 70 years. In fact captive lifespan averages out around 40 to 50 years. this means the population has been augmented to meet the demands of tourism This has been achieved by unregulated breeding,  illegal importing and smuggling of elephants from the wild - (typically killing the mothers and taking the babies). Thai is a signatory to the international CITES treaty that forbids all this but once in Thailand there are few laws protecting private ownership of elephants (less than owning a pickup truck) and even less enforcement.

 there is no thorough inspection of elephant attractions and the register for keeping and chipping is simply not enforced - it also allows for false identification of smuggled animals.

 

So breeding of elephants in captivity is dangerous for the welfare of the mothers – and only breeds for further exploitation in the tourist industry and has no benefits for conservation.

Thailand has a big captive elephant problem

THis originated in the 1980s when logging was made illegal and about 4000 elephants were made unemployed.

THe idea was that the private sector would look after these elephants until the population dwindled to zero. 

If that had worked the current population would be approximately 1950 elephants from the original captive population of 3900 in 1989 would still be alive in Thailand by 2024, assuming a constant survival rate and an average lifespan of 70 years. In fact captive lifespan averages out around 40 to 50 years. this means the population has been augmented to meet the demands of tourism THis has been achieved by unregulated breeding,  illegal importing and smuggling of elephants from the wild - (typically killing the mothers and taking the babies). Thai is a signatory to the international CITES treaty that forbids all this but once in Thailand there are few laws protecting private ownership of elephants (less than owning a pickup truck) and even less enforcement.

 there is no thorough inspection of wlephant attractions and the register for keeping and chipping is simply not eng=forced - it also allows for false identification of smuggled animals.

so who should you belive the World Animal Protection https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/blogs/thailand-elephants/

or a little tin pot,  who is gooling,  all this is on the internet for anyone to read !! some of it its wat out of date some non factual  no links to articals

[Rimmer]

Off topic bickering posts and replies have been removed

[kwilco]

51 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

so who should you belive the World Animal Protection a

or a little tin pot,  who is gooling,  all this is on the internet for anyone to read !! some of it its wat out of date some non factual  no links to articals

you realise you haven't read my post and are accusing me of things I haven't said - basically everything you've said in incorrect.

I can't rely on just one quote - I'm referring to years of reading up on captive elephants in Thailand  - the views are MINE - they are opinions based on evidence and reason of the entire conservation movement

 

Now read this........

"No responsible elephant venue will engage in captive breeding, keep babies away from their mother, or allow guests to touch babies." -

 

 https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/blogs/thailand-elephants/

 

 

your own reference!!

 

[MikeandDow]

6 minutes ago, kwilco said:

you realise you haven't read my post and are accusing me of things I haven't said - basically everything you've said in incorrect.

I can't rely on just one quote - I'm referring to years of reading up on captive elephants in Thailand  - the views are MINE - they are opinions based on evidence and reason of the entire conservation movement

 

Now read this........

"No responsible elephant venue will engage in captive breeding, keep babies away from their mother, or allow guests to touch babies." -

 

 https://www.worldanimalprotection.org/latest/blogs/thailand-elephants/

 

 

your own reference!!

 

more like you have not read my post !!

again i will quote YOU quote: Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference.

if there is No breeding Elephants, as a species will die off  and YOU are stating there Shall be NO breeding  captive breeding is "domestication "which should not be allowed

[kwilco]

7 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

more like you have not read my post !!

again i will quote YOU quote: Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference.

if there is No breeding Elephants, as a species will die off  and YOU are stating there Shall be NO breeding  captive breeding is "domestication "which should not be allowed

 

7 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

more like you have not read my post !!

again i will quote YOU quote: Elephants should be living in large herds and big mainland reserves - there should be no breeding, and minimal human interference.

if there is No breeding Elephants, as a species will die off  and YOU are stating there Shall be NO breeding  captive breeding is "domestication "which should not be allowed

You are now deliberately misinterpreting what I said - you know full well that I was referring to captive breeding - you also don't seem to know that there is no such thing as a domesticated elephant - you really need to get up to speed on this topic - you are displaying a huge lack of understanding of this topic - everything you've said so far is basically incorrect. - you don't even read you own references

 

"if there is No breeding Elephants, as a species will die off" - you were talkibng about elephants in captivity - of you don't know that then I can't help you.

 

i said "

The wild population is a BREEDING population and numbers in fact are increasing slightly.

You can't release captive elephants in to the wild."

 

THere should be no captive breeding of elephants - do you agee?