Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

KhunHeineken · January 16

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Here is a link to the article in question.

There are NO quotes from the director general.

None.

Not one.

A few short paraphrases, and a whole lot of filler.

This is infotainment.

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-on-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the-march-31st-deadline/

Seems like foreigners are not the only ones he's warning about filing their tax.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2936726/online-vendors-influencers-warned-over-tax-compliance

"Mr Pinsai said anyone earning income should file a tax return as failure to do so will result in fines and additional charges as prescribed by law."

Did the journalist misquote him in this article also?

NoDisplayName · January 16

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Were you at the press conference? If not, what is your source?

Here's another version on the intertubes without all the fluff.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Revenue+Department+invites+you+to+submit+your+tax+forms.-a0822132723

NoDisplayName · January 16

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Seems like foreigners are not the only ones he's warning about filing their tax.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2936726/online-vendors-influencers-warned-over-tax-compliance

"Mr Pinsai said anyone earning income should file a tax return as failure to do so will result in fines and additional charges as prescribed by law."

Did the journalist misquote him in this article also?

And how many times was "foreign" used in the article?

That would be.........zero.

Was this even the same press conference/announcement?

The Revenue Department issued a warning to independent business owners, particularly online vendors and influencers, to file their taxes correctly

The above first paragraph doesn't exactly scream "foreign retirees must declare all their remittances, regardless of assessability".

anrcaccount · January 16

1 hour ago, Card said:

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

No, it's you who doesn't understand the CRS. It's not "all your financial dealings" Educate yourself. Here's some facts to help you:

CRS Source: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

Table 4 ( page 60) it defines exactly what financial information is shared which is only once yearly, aggregate account balances, does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of income as specified in table 5. Regarding the inaccurate info you've posted regarding credit cards, you can see there is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.

In addition , the CRS reporting obligations have nothing to with remitted income, nor that remitted income being reported to a tax authority.

Unfortunately, CRS has become a term used, in a scaremongering fashion, being pushed by Thai 'expat' tax experts, in order to drive demand for their services, along with fitting in nicely with the worldview of the those who believe there's an eye on their every transaction.

I absolutely take your point but remember the reports include details of the following for every individual account you have in both participant countries of the DTA, including credit card accounts. This means the Thai authorities can query us on any payments into the cc accounts to pay off the loan if they suspect the loan involved payment in Thailand.

What information will be reported to tax authorities?

The information reported to tax authorities will have been provided in the self-certification form, and details about the accounts and products you have, including:

the balance or value

the total amounts of interest or payments credited

Sorry, but you've missed the point, and you continue to post inaccurate 'copy pastes' from a predatory expat tax agency.

Firstly, credit card accounts themselves aren't generally reported at all in the CRS data sharing.

Some credit card issuers are considered non-reportable financial institutions altogether. Others, do not need to be reportable if they have policies of not accepting overpayment of more than US50k, or have policies to return any overpayment in excess of US50k, within 60 days.

Those that are reportable, are reportable on a depository basis- that is only if a credit balance is held, in excess of the reportable thresholds. That means, only people who load up their credit cards with a positive balance ( not credit limit) of $50,000 USD or more, at the once a year point, of this account being eligible to be reported.

Based on this, it's logical to infer that very few credit card accounts would ever be reportable.

Remember, only once a year this information is exchanged, and only on aggregate balances ( with some exclusions).

KhunHeineken · January 16

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

And how many times was "foreign" used in the article?

That would be.........zero.

Was this even the same press conference/announcement?

The Revenue Department issued a warning to independent business owners, particularly online vendors and influencers, to file their taxes correctly

The above first paragraph doesn't exactly scream "foreign retirees must declare all their remittances, regardless of assessability".

I am merely pointing out that the Director General has told people, other than foreigners, they have to file in this article. Does that not lend some weight to at least the possibility that he did in fact tell foreigners they have to file as well. Do you agree the BP is a credible source?

OJAS · January 16

On 1/15/2025 at 6:39 PM, stubuzz said:

If you transfered money to buy proerty, would this be taxed?

Depends on whether or not it is sourced from income derived in your home country, which is covered by its Double Taxation Agreement with Thailand (i.e. solely taxable by your home country), I would have thought.

NoDisplayName · January 16

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I am merely pointing out that the Director General has told people, other than foreigners, they have to file in this article. Does that not lend some weight to at least the possibility that he did in fact tell foreigners they have to file as well. Do you agree the BP is a credible source?

Irrelevant, really.

He told "taxpayers" or perhaps "tax-residents" that they should file if they are required to do so.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with interpretations or potential changes to the regulations.

Is BP credible? Not that they're always wrong, but they are also filled with infotainment articles written by "journalists" not expert in the topic on which they report, adding cut 'n paste filler, paraphrasing instead of directly quoting, all followed by a double spoonful of poor translations.

No, the DG said nothing relevant to foreign retirees wondering if they need to declare their credit card purchases.

KhunHeineken · January 16

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

And how many times was "foreign" used in the article?

That would be.........zero.

Was this even the same press conference/announcement?

The Revenue Department issued a warning to independent business owners, particularly online vendors and influencers, to file their taxes correctly

The above first paragraph doesn't exactly scream "foreign retirees must declare all their remittances, regardless of assessability".

He's put companies on notice as well.

https://moneyandbanking.co.th/en/2024/147891/

"Mr. Pinsai Suraswadi, Director-General of the Revenue Department Revealed that the Ministry of Finance, through the Revenue Department, has proposed the draft of the Additional Tax Act B.E. 2567 to the Cabinet, which approved the draft of the said Act on December 11, B.E. 2567."

Seems like he's told everyone to pay their taxes except, according to you, foreigners. That was the journalist telling foreigners to pay tax. :smile:

NoDisplayName · January 16

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Seems like he's told everyone to pay their taxes except, according to you, foreigners. That was the journalist telling foreigners to pay tax.

That's not what I said.

He told taxpayers and/or tax-residents to follow TRD regulations.

I am both taxpayer and tax-resident, AND also a foreigner.

He told everyone, including me, to file IF required to.

I am not required to file, nor am I required to declare credit card purchased, nor am I required to declare all non-assessable exempt non-taxable remittances.

It was the journalist adding the fearporn.

KhunHeineken · January 16

10 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Depends on whether or not it is sourced from income derived in your home country, which is covered by its Double Taxation Agreement with Thailand (i.e. solely taxable by your home country), I would have thought.

I posted this in the Property & Finance Forum, but I will post it here also.

This guy explains the DTA "myth" being, if I pay tax in Country A, then I don't have to pay tax in Country B. This is a myth. Both countries can tax you, just not tax the same money twice. He explains the DTA myth it quite well.

KhunHeineken · January 16

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

He told "taxpayers" or perhaps "tax-residents" that they should file if they are required to do so.

Are foreigners staying over 180 days tax residents? Yes.

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with interpretations or potential changes to the regulations.

Foreigners staying over 180 days are tax residents. They are bringing in income from offshore.

I agree they want the wealthy Thai's with offshore investments, but foreigners will be scooped up in the net also.

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Is BP credible? Not that they're always wrong, but they are also filled with infotainment articles written by "journalists" not expert in the topic on which they report, adding cut 'n paste filler, paraphrasing instead of directly quoting, all followed by a double spoonful of poor translations.

You will need more to convince me than, "he didn't say that. it's the journalist. the journalist. the journalist."

16 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

No, the DG said nothing relevant to foreign retirees wondering if they need to declare their credit card purchases.

I couldn't care less about credit card purchases.

As I have said before, on numerous occasions, I guess we'll all get to see how serious they are come extension time, but a tax policy without collection and enforcement is no tax policy at all, and the easiest of easiest ways to enforce this policy on foreigners is via Thailand's immigration / visa / extension requirements.

jojothai · January 16

9 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Sorry but I've heard or read it all before and some! By taking that one small sentence out of my post, your response becomes completely out of context with what I wrote. Thank you for your effort, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Either what you say is true or not.

And i advise that it is pasting a picture that is not correct and can confuse people.

So there is no need to dismiss it as if i am wrong.

if i am barking up the wrong tree and not telling the truth then there is no point in me trying to help people.

i have seen enough misinformation or poor opinion in the related subjects and will post sometimes to try to correct things.

I advise that you should not confuse people with remarks that may not be true.

Today i have pointed out some specific misunderstandings on DTA's and i will post to help people when i see something where i can help.

No point in commenting again on people who clearly have incorrect opinions.

KhunHeineken · January 16

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

He told taxpayers and/or tax-residents to follow TRD regulations.

That would be foreigners staying over 180 day, which is most of us.

12 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I am both taxpayer and tax-resident, AND also a foreigner.

I would suggest most on this forum are a foreigner, and a tax resident, but not a tax payer, but they soon will be.

13 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

He told everyone, including me, to file IF required to.

I thought the journalist said it, not him. Which one is it????

13 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I am not required to file, nor am I required to declare credit card purchased, nor am I required to declare all non-assessable exempt non-taxable remittances.

Good Luck with that.

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

It was the journalist adding the fearporn.

So, he has said it to two other demographics of tax payers, reported in two other publications, but the publication that reported he said it to foreigners as well, it was the journalist saying it, and he didn't actually say it, and this is what you are basing your Thailand tax strategy on. :smile:

DrPhibes · January 16

16 hours ago, ukrules said:

Maybe

Sounds like a magic 8 ball answer

George FmplesdaCosteedback · January 16

More hot air! I have said this all through the last 18 months or so since it was announced as "proposed new tax regulations". Unless I missed something and despite the dates being quoted for this to commence being banded about, the change to the tax laws need to be announced in the Royal Gazette. I have never seen anyone say more than "if, might, when" on this subject and to "collect your data just in case".

To quote: "Carden admitted such matters remain unclear. He acknowledged the Revenue Department’s intent to widen the tax base, with small earners inadvertently caught in policies aimed at wealthy Thais" is significant as it shows this was not intended to include foreign nationals who reside in Thailand long term. If your country has a mutual Tax Agreement, unless you are moving LARGE amounts through your Thai bank account it is unlikely to effect you.

NoDisplayName · January 16

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

You will need more to convince me than, "he didn't say that. it's the journalist. the journalist. the journalist."

The missing piece is the ........................"...."

There are no direct quotations, none of the words on the page actually came out of the director's mouth.

The few statements that might be attributed to him were paraphrased.

Padding was padded, filling was filled to achieve word count.

When you file in the US (or wherever), do you follow the regulations on the IRS website, or do you file based on last week's "10 Things To Know About Taxes" annual filler article in Newsweek?

Ctkong · January 16

15 hours ago, MartinL said:

Yes, I know all that but a TIN is needed to file a tax return and, in so many reports, TRD local offices have refused to issue a TIN, including in my own case just yesterday. The manager of my local tax office was acting in what he clearly believed was the correct manner to my enquiry in denying me a TIN. He certainly didn't appear to be acting out of malice or indifference as he took time to explain his stance. I won't change his belief that his action was correct so I didn't try too much.

How can we even get on the first rung of the ladder in an attempt to comply with the law if we're denied the tools to do so?

Maybe the local tax officer knew something we don’t? That we foreigners are small fries that they are not after. There are laws and there are enforced laws and these are just laws that may not be enforced upon mainly retirees.

mania · January 16

20 hours ago, arick said:

Yes they need to start checking their own people which they can't even do. So how in the hell are they going to monitor expats

That is a pretty funny comment. Yes they cannot really check their own people as most are self employed there is no way to check them.

But, to say "how in the hell are they going to monitor expats" ??

Well that is very easy isn't it? Expats actually need to check in with the government & ask for permission to stay. If/When they make this part of that permission well then you will have a decision to make. Comply & prove or leave

mania · January 16

20 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

Chonburi Immigration stated 2 days ago at Pattaya Mail that there are no plans to link any visa or visa extension to any tax IDs, or TINs.

So just forget that. Won't happen.

555 As we all know what one Imm office states become a royal decree

mania · January 16

19 hours ago, NanLaew said:

What "crucial updates"?

With absolutely bugger all new from the RD, the situation is unchanged.

Exactly !

I was always amazed at Thai's in other countries opening Thai restaurants then ripping off their fellow Thai's by employing them at sub min wage etc.

This is no different...A bunch of Falangs open a tax business in Thailand & try to rip off other Falangs with fear mongering. At this point this is all it is fear mongering. If & when the RD department ever makes all of this mud clear then these guys should be saying such things

koolkarl · January 16

14 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes.

The price has gone up for living here, with no value added for a farang for the extra money.

The foreigners in Thailand, especially the retirees, are sitting ducks. Canada is part of the OECD and CRS agreement for years and if

you lived in Canada, you would have to report your world income, same as coming to Thailand. But at least Canada makes you a legal immigrant and gives you health care for what that is worth there. Here, you will just get laughed at.

Expat68 · January 17

Had a letter from my ISA company in the UK asking where I was tax resident. I replied that I pay my taxes in the UK but Thailand were also considering me to be a tax resident, to which they said you can't be tax resident in two countries

MartinL · January 17

7 hours ago, Ctkong said:

Maybe the local tax officer knew something we don’t? That we foreigners are small fries that they are not after. There are laws and there are enforced laws and these are just laws that may not be enforced upon mainly retirees.

Agree.

In another thread, I said "I was refused a TIN because I have no earnings in Thailand ... maybe the TO people are waiting for proper instructions from their senior people".

From all the reports of denials of TINs, it increasingly feels like they've already had instructions not to provide TINs for those living on pensions - and my TO specifically asked about pension income - we've just not heard about it and it'll never be confirmed one way or he other.

Jingthing · January 17

7 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

Had a letter from my ISA company in the UK asking where I was tax resident. I replied that I pay my taxes in the UK but Thailand were also considering me to be a tax resident, to which they said you can't be tax resident in two countries

Except for Americans. (So lucky!)

Understanding Tax Residence: Key Factors and Implications

Quote

For US citizens, only renouncing your citizenship can terminate tax residence.

Presnock · January 17

12 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

If that was the article in the Examiner, then no, the TRD official never once mentioned foreigners. He was simply advising taxpayers to file taxes if they are required to.

Everything else about foreigners and tax changes was added by the "journalist" to spice up the article.

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-om-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the march-31st-deadline

yes it is about filing this year but refers to the plans to tax ALL tax resident foreigners and add them to the thai tax programs

Jingthing · January 17

About TINS, it might be a grey area for now, but I think it's totally crazy to rush out and try or get a TIN if you know for a fact that you have no accessable income.

I did read a commentary from a Pattaya Thai national tax consultant that (at least for now) he seriously doubts that the tax office is going to go after retired expats with normal looking remittances (even though some might be accessable) and he was kind of suggesting wait and see.

Jingthing · January 17

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2025/01/03/revenue-department-boss-calls-om-tax-residents-in-thailand-to-file-2024-runs-by-the march-31st-deadline

yes it is about filing this year but refers to the plans to tax ALL tax resident foreigners and add them to the thai tax programs

It's dumb to say all should file. If you don't have accessable income over the threshold, you definitely should NOT file.

Presnock · January 17

13 hours ago, Presnock said:

earlier thsi month, an officIAL of the trd or finance ministry said all folks need to file income taxes he specifically mentioned expats and foreign tax residents will need to file for taxes

that was in a Thai Examiner article quoting the trd official and specifically mentins expats and foreign tax residents! advises foreign tax residents to file by 31st March deadline. Link is inclued in another claim that expats or foreigners are never mentioned when in fact they are. I realize this is an opinion forum but when one states facts that are incorrect we need to advise them.

Jingthing · January 17

Just now, Presnock said:

that was in a Thai Examiner article quoting the trd official and specifically mentins expats and foreign tax residents! advises foreign tax residents to file by 31st March deadline. Link is inclued in another claim that expats or foreigners are never mentioned when in fact they are. I realize this is an opinion forum but when one states facts that are incorrect we need to advise them.

Sure but you've got to consider lost in translation both in language and reporting.

Drumbuie · January 17

On 1/15/2025 at 8:27 PM, Briggsy said:

Just out of interest, a high street accountant in the UK would generally charge around £200 for a relatively straightforward annual tax return. e.g. a self-employed 360 driver.

That may have been true a few years ago but I think you'd be lucky to find one who'd charge less than £500 now - and that would not be in London.

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