Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

You have no other income streams?  No Thai sourced interest or dividends?  No remittances of capital gains or dividends from outside? Not remitted to Thailand

 

Maybe you can answer some of our questions: I will try

 

Is your pension non-assessable, excluded by DTA? There are a DTA but pension is assesable in Thailand as long as it is remitted but only the part which actually are transferred.

If so, if entered on your PN91, how do you deduct it? N/A

 

Do you pay any tax on your pension in your home country? Yes

If so, how do you claim a credit for foreign tax paid? Opposite, I have to send Certificate of Residence (R.O22) and Income Tax Payment Certificate (R.O.21) home and I pay only tax there on the part of pension which is not remitted to Thailand

 

Your situation appears quite simple.  Your only remittance is an assessable pension, which is your only relevant source of income.

 

You're here >179 days, remit > 60K/120K baht.  You're tax resident, above the filing threshold.

 

You get your 60/120K, your 100K exemptions, and 190K if >65, plus the 150K 0% tax bracket.

 

You do not deduct non-assessable remitted income.

You do not take a foreign tax credit.

You file, you declare the total remitted, you pay tax.

Use the short form PN91, as pension is considered derived from employment.

 

You can file online if you have a TIN or activated pink ID number, should take 15 minutes if you have an assistant or can read Thai.  Most of the form is pre-loaded, your return only needs you to enter numbers in a couple of blanks.  Calculations are automatic.

 

When you file, you can download your Thai language return digitally stamped as accepted by TRD, and your receipt for payment of tax.

Every year, if no changes........lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Super easy, barely an inconvenience!

 

***CAUTION:  OPINION ONLY, NOT ADVICE.  NOT FOR RESALE.  NOT FOR INTERNAL CONSUMPTION.  BEST IF USED BY (see label)***

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

At 5:30, he says....

 

"....then we look at what they bring into Thailand, so if they bring in pension income, we have to look at where the pension income's from.  If it is from the US..., so social security money, umm, then that is not taxable.  It's not assessable income, so for these people, if that's their only source of income, for your US listeners and viewers, if their only source of income is US social security, or military pension, or they worked for the US government, like a federal pension.  This is not assessable income.  They don't need to file a tax return for that income.  They don't need to do anything."

 

These statements by Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand provide the clearest guidance on the issue of remitted foreign income that is (not) to be considered as assessable income for the purpose of calculation of income tax in Thailand and the implications for (not) obtaining a TIN and (not) filing a tax return for that income.  This source states that it provides guidance based upon consultations with the Thai Revenue Department. It cannot be stated more clearly.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Here's a REAL tax expert.

On the YouTubes, and he's wearing a collared shirt with long sleeves.

 

At 5:30, he says....

 

"....then we look at what they bring into Thailand, so if they bring in pension income, we have to look at where the pension income's from.  If it is from the US..., so social security money, umm, then that is not taxable.  It's not assessable income, so for these people, if that's their only source of income, for your US listeners and viewers, if their only source of income is US social security, or military pension, or they worked for the US government, like a federal pension.  This is not assessable income.  They don't need to file a tax return for that income.  They don't need to do anything."

 

He then goes on to speak a bit on UK pension types, claims you CAN take a tax credit, but of course doesn't explain how.

 

At 8:40, he lists some forms that are excluded, and are not assessable, and he repeats those people with only this type of income remitted do NOT need to file a tax return and do NOT need a tax ID.  Those include US socsec, Canuck pension, and most DTA's cover government civil service and military service pensions.

 

 

This matches my understanding, where I had a running debate with Cyclist who held a different view.

 

As I noted ... if one looks at the relevant DTAs (ie USA, Canada, and DTAs that cover civil service and military service pensions, the wording typically says something along the lines that such pensions are exclusively taxed (or can only be taxed) in the pension source country. 

 

This makes these pensions (in the noted DTAs) exempt Thai taxation per Royal Decree 18, which in essence means exempt from Thai tax calculation. 

Hence these pensions are not to be considered assessable in Thailand for taxation purposes.  ie. no Thai tax to be paid on them, and further,  they are not to be considered when assessing one's threshold for submitting an income tax return to Thailand. 

 

And if one needs to file a tax return to Thailand due to other income pushing one over the taxation submission threshold, those DTA tax exempt pensions are not to be listed on the Thai tax return form. This makes perfect sense given there is no location on the Thai tax return forms to list such pensions as exempt income.

 

My hope is some of the sceptics on this forum  (and this thread) take note. 

 

Of course not every DTA allows pension income to be treated as not assessable income by Thailand.  German pensions (that are not civil servant and not military) are taxable in Thailand if remitted to Thailand (and they are not taxable in Germany).

 

Of course this is my opinion, but it is gratifying to read of (and see video of) other's who share my view.

 

[Guavaman]

This deserves to be saved by every expat Thai tax resident and shared widely amongst the expat community:

 

In this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpTYIjXCqE], Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand provides clear and actionable guidance on the issue of remitted foreign income that is (not) to be considered as assessable income for the purpose of calculation of income tax in Thailand and the implications for (not) obtaining a TIN and (not) filing a tax return for that income.  This source states that it provides guidance to Thai taxpayers derived from consultations with the Thai Revenue Department.

 

At 5:11, he says....

“So let's say you're a pensioner and you are living in Thailand 180 days or more. So you meet the criteria to be a Thai tax resident; then we look at what do you bring into Thailand.

So if they bring in pension income, we have to look at where the pension income comes from. If it is from the US, so Social Security money -- um -- then that is not taxable.  It's not assessable income, so for these people, if that's their only source of income, for your US listeners and viewers, if their only source of income is US social security, or military pension, or they worked for the US government, like a federal pension -- this is not assessable income.  They don't need to file a tax return for that income.  They don't need to do anything."

 

At 8:37, he says....

“… so if you are -- if you have a Canadian pension, excellent! The Double Taxation Agreement shows that Canadian pensions are not taxable in Thailand; they are excluded -- they're only taxed in Canada. Okay so for those people -- if they've only got Canadian pensions they don't need to file a tax return; they don't need a tax ID.”

 

Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand, Nov 29, 2024

Expats & Taxes in Thailand: Expert Advice You Need to Know!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpTYIjXCqE

[NoDisplayName]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

This makes these pensions (in the noted DTAs) exempt Thai taxation per Royal Decree 18, which in essence means exempt from Thai tax calculation. 

Hence these pensions are not to be considered assessable in Thailand for taxation purposes.  ie. no Thai tax to be paid on them, and further,  they are not to be considered when assessing one's threshold for submitting an income tax return to Thailand.

 

Of course, if exempt, if not taxable, then the income is not assessable.   I'll stick with that until we get clear guidance from TRD that we must declare all NON-assessable remittances, and have already filed thus.

 

When reports start coming in of audits, or requests for more documentation, or informed TRD officials demanding foreign tax-residents' returns include social security or excluded pensions, we'll have some data points.

 

Gosh, I'd like to see just one person that was told they must include non-assessable remittances, and then actually filed.

 

I'd also like to see instructions on how to claim DTA benefits on the tax return AND how to claim a tax credit without manual intervention (in other words, just deleting the entries!) by the TRD officer.

 

All we know so far is that under the law, we may claim a tax credit, but are never told how.  The tax consultants tell us we may claim a tax credit, if we let them file on our behalf.  This, to me, indicates no procedures have been established for this.

[redwood1]

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Of course, if exempt, if not taxable, then the income is not assessable.   I'll stick with that until we get clear guidance from TRD that we must declare all NON-assessable remittances, and have already filed thus.

 

When reports start coming in of audits, or requests for more documentation, or informed TRD officials demanding foreign tax-residents' returns include social security or excluded pensions, we'll have some data points.

 

Gosh, I'd like to see just one person that was told they must include non-assessable remittances, and then actually filed.

 

I'd also like to see instructions on how to claim DTA benefits on the tax return AND how to claim a tax credit without manual intervention (in other words, just deleting the entries!) by the TRD officer.

 

All we know so far is that under the law, we may claim a tax credit, but are never told how.  The tax consultants tell us we may claim a tax credit, if we let them file on our behalf.  This, to me, indicates no procedures have been established for this.

 

This post makes a lot of sense.....I guess your not a internet pixel after all.....

[Felt 35]

9 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Your situation appears quite simple.  Your only remittance is an assessable pension, which is your only relevant source of income.

 

You're here >179 days, remit > 60K/120K baht.  You're tax resident, above the filing threshold.

 

You get your 60/120K, your 100K exemptions, and 190K if >65, plus the 150K 0% tax bracket.

 

You do not deduct non-assessable remitted income.

You do not take a foreign tax credit.

You file, you declare the total remitted, you pay tax.

Use the short form PN91, as pension is considered derived from employment.

 

You can file online if you have a TIN or activated pink ID number, should take 15 minutes if you have an assistant or can read Thai.  Most of the form is pre-loaded, your return only needs you to enter numbers in a couple of blanks.  Calculations are automatic.

 

When you file, you can download your Thai language return digitally stamped as accepted by TRD, and your receipt for payment of tax.

Every year, if no changes........lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Super easy, barely an inconvenience!

 

***CAUTION:  OPINION ONLY, NOT ADVICE.  NOT FOR RESALE.  NOT FOR INTERNAL CONSUMPTION.  BEST IF USED BY (see label)***

 

Yes, my taxable income transferred to Thailand annually is relatively simple and that with intention for myself and for those who receive the tax filing. The point of my post earlier was only to mention that I use PN 91 and have done so for many years and as previously mentioned the form for last year's tax assessment has been received with completed filled in name and TIN. However, I can follow the local Rd office don't file online even with a TIN but see that as no problem.

Felt

[The Cyclist]

12 hours ago, oldcpu said:

And the Royal Decree / DTA in some (not all) cases can make a foreign income  not taxable by Thailand and ultimately not to be considered as assessable. 

 

Sure, just watch this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQXa8gcVfE&lc=UgykEdnmE-jck6NBWml4AaABAg

 

And then see this comment added below.

 

Quote

Great presentation. Very professional. Thailand will tax a remittance unless you prove it is not taxable. Some of the audience were asking some dumb questions and some questions looking to evade tax.

 

The comment is correct on both points it makes.

 

Tax Resident after 01 Jan 2024, remit income from overseas, the onus is on you as an individual to file a tax return, with the relevant paperwork proving that income is not taxable in Thailand.

 

DTA's.

Bank statements proving prior savings.

Visa details

Anything else that is relevant to proving it is not taxable.

 

Whether the Revenue Department, are currently set up to facilitate this, is a different story.

 

You have a nice day, my day will be spent here, not worrying about tax filing.

 

 

 

[redwood1]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure, just watch this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQXa8gcVfE&lc=UgykEdnmE-jck6NBWml4AaABAg

 

And then see this comment added below.

 

 

The comment is correct on both points it makes.

 

Tax Resident after 01 Jan 2024, remit income from overseas, the onus is on you as an individual to file a tax return, with the relevant paperwork proving that income is not taxable in Thailand.

 

DTA's.

Bank statements proving prior savings.

Visa details

Anything else that is relevant to proving it is not taxable.

 

Whether the Revenue Department, are currently set up to facilitate this, is a different story.

 

You have a nice day, my day will be spent here, not worrying about tax filing.

 

 

 

 

Sir do you need metal help?

 

How many times do all this poster on this thread need to keep  repeatedly telling you....

 

That if no taxes are due.....There is no need to file....Thais or farang...

 

[anchadian]

I have now decided to file a tax return even if my assessable pensions fall below the required threshold

 

Who know what the future may bring, more so especially with regard to visa extensions.

It's better to be safe than sorry.  

[TheAppletons]

14 minutes ago, anchadian said:

I have now decided to file a tax return even if my assessable pensions fall below the required threshold

 

Who know what the future may bring, more so especially with regard to visa extensions.

It's better to be safe than sorry.  

 

[Yumthai]

14 minutes ago, anchadian said:

It's better to be safe than sorry.  

This quote does not apply to Thailand.

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, Guavaman said:

This deserves to be saved by every expat Thai tax resident and shared widely amongst the expat community:

 

Why? There are far better guides available and I can spot a snake oil salesman when I see one.

[KannikaP]

On 1/16/2025 at 7:56 AM, jesimps said:

Good luck with that. Hope you have more success than me. Let us know the result and which tax office you used please.

Got mine in Bang Rakam, Phitsanulok, tax office in 2022. The boss there filled it in for me, charged me Bht 200 for doing it in April. Went in February last year....Zero to pay.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure, just watch this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQXa8gcVfE&lc=UgykEdnmE-jck6NBWml4AaABAg

 

Siam legal. Right?  yea - right. ...

 

If they state exempt foreign income is assessable income to be included on a tax form (and used to assess the need to file a tax return), then they pretty much have been proven incorrect in regards how they assess foreign pension income that a DTA states is only (or exclusively) taxed by the non-Thai source country of the pension income. 

 

It is pretty much confirmed now your view wrong, by reviewing the Thai Tax Code, the Royal Decrees (18 and 743), the Ministerial Directives por.161.162, and the Thailand tax forms in English (2017 to 2023) and the Thai tax forms in Thai (2017 to 2024) and relevant words in some DTAs. 

 

Pension income exempt per those legal documents if remitted to Thailand are not to be considered in a tax calculation, are not to be considered assessable income and are not to be used as part of the calculation in assessing if one should file a Thai tax return

 

Go ahead and ignore such ... but if anyone were to attempt to file a Thai tax return, you will find NO PLACE on any Thai tax return to properly list such income as exempt.

 

The MASSIVE scaremongering here is very counter productive.

 

I will again recommend AseanNow users ignore what Cyclist has typed - as it is misinformed.

 

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

I will again recommend AseanNow users ignore what Cyclist has typed - as it is misinformed.

 

Crack on and believe what you want.

 

Do you think that there might be a reason that no announcement has been made that changes do not apply or affect  expats ?

 

Or these changes only apply to Thais ?

 

Or a simple statement of " Expats crack on as normal " continue to do what you have done for years.

 

Why announce the changes in English, if it does not affect expats ?

 

As I said back in Nov / Dec 2023, these changes are coming about because Thailand joined CRS, and whilst " Its all Kosher Gov, honest " might apply to Thailands domestic tax rules, it does not apply to the rules of an International Treaty.

 

What you believe to be exempt tax filing is actually exempt paying tax, due to a DTA, or a certain Visa, or because Tax Credits will mean no tax is payable, or savings prior to 01 Jan 2024, or any others that I might have missed.

 

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, anchadian said:

I have now decided to file a tax return even if my assessable pensions fall below the required threshold

 

Who know what the future may bring, more so especially with regard to visa extensions.

It's better to be safe than sorry.  

 

Saved for posterity

 

You wont be the last to change your mind.

[oldcpu]

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Crack on and believe what you want.

 

I thought you stated your : "  day will be spent here, not worrying about tax filing"

 

 

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Do you think that there might be a reason that no announcement has been made that changes do not apply or affect  expats ?

 

Yes.  And I already pointed out.  There is nothing changed in Thai tax documents (2017 to 2023 - English language and 2017-to-2024 -Thai language).  That no announcement clearly indicates there is no place on such tax forms for tax exempt foreign income to be listed as exempt and there will be no change.  Why?  Because it is not to be considered assessable income.  I provided you the references which you refuse to believe. Frankly I doubt you spent the time even to examine such.

 

 

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Why announce the changes in English, if it does not affect expats ?

 

What changes?  por.161/162?   You have already conceded pre-1-Jan-2024 income when remitted to Thailand is tax exempt and is to be considered not assessable.

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

As I said back in Nov / Dec 2023, these changes are coming about because Thailand joined CRS, and whilst " Its all Kosher Gov, honest " might apply to Thailands domestic tax rules, it does not apply to the rules of an International Treaty.

 

CRS says nothing here.  Your views on that (CRS) have already been soundly destroyed on this forum.

 

 

16 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

What you believe to be exempt tax filing is actually exempt paying tax, due to a DTA, or a certain Visa, or because Tax Credits will mean no tax is payable, or savings prior to 01 Jan 2024, or any others that I might have missed.

 

 

Note ... I stated 'tax exempt' and further/later stated 'exempt for Thai tax calculation'.  That means in effect not to be considered as assessable income.

 

You have already had a RECENT youtube video link posted on this , as opposed to the OLD videos you referenced where the so called tax experts had not yet thought this through.

 

You have still refused to admit your mistake when you claimed only pre-1-Jan-2024 income/savings tax exempt , despite having pointed out to you Royal Decree-18 (which notes some DTA income can be tax exempt) and Royal Decree 743 (which notes for selected LTR visa holders remitted foreign income is tax exempt).   What you typed is wrong and you should admit that.

 

Further - the Thai tax forms (Thai language 2017 to 2024, ... and English language 2017 to 2023)  have no fields in them to list exempt income from DTAs.  Why ? Because such is not assessable. And if not assessable it does not factor into the calculation if a Thai tax return is required.

 

STOP spreading disinformation.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

despite having pointed out to you Royal Decree-18 (which notes some DTA income can be tax exempt)

 

" Can be tax exempt "

 

It does not say filing exempt 

 

I have never questioned that there is a heap of Incomes that are tax exempt.

 

I have questioned where this filing exempt comes from.

[oldcpu]

Just now, The Cyclist said:

 

I have never questioned that there is a heap of Incomes that are tax exempt.

 

I have questioned where this filing exempt comes from.

 

Yes you did  - shall I quote it for you where you stated only pre-1-Jan-2024 remitted income was exempt?

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Note ... I stated 'tax exempt' and further/later stated 'exempt for Thai tax calculation'.  That means in effect not to be considered as assessable income.

 

Rage away and keep believing.

 

Not me that is potentially going to be bitten on the ****.

[Jingthing]

This is getting kind of silly.

If you don't file because your income is exempt and you don't have accessable income over the threshold, and you also keep good RECORDS, in the unlikely event that you're called in about that, you prove your situation, and the worse that can happen is a fine for not filing when you were supposed to. (But you're not supposed to.)

If people are going to push anything, push learning about the different kinds of income being accessible or not, and stop pushing unnecessary filing

About the irrational FEAR MONGERING that extensions are going to require tax returns, cross that bridge IF it ever happens.

[The Cyclist]

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

This deserves to be saved by every expat Thai tax resident and shared widely amongst the expat community:

 

The updated video from last week with the Professor and the Legal Eagle from the RD needs to be watched.

 

I posted it on here.

 

3 times Carl Turner asked about about this, especially the so called non assessable income like US SS, and 3 times it was given a stiff ignoring, by the Professor and the RD Legal guy.

 

Never directly answered once.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Rage away and keep believing.

 

Not me that is potentially going to be bitten on the ****.

 

... and the instant you put any tax exempt income (due to DTA - if your DTA has such exempt income flagged)  on the Thai tax form , and try to incorrectly force same exempt income into an exemption field which is not appropriate, your exemption will be denied (as there is no place for such exemption in the tax forms) and you will pay Thai tax on your exempt income that is in fact not to be considered assessable.

 

I hope your savings (per por.161/162) last you for a very long time, such that you only remit your pre-1-Jan-2024 savings, and that  you don't screw up with regard to your thinking on income that selected DTAs note are tax exempt (and hence are not to be considered assessable).

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The updated video from last week with the Professor and the Legal Eagle from the RD needs to be watched.

 

I posted it on here.

 

3 times Carl Turner asked about about this, especially the so called non assessable income like US SS, and 3 times it was given a stiff ignoring, by the Professor and the RD Legal guy.

 

Never directly answered once.

 

And a MORE recent video has now since clarified that.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

And a MORE recent video has now since clarified that.

 

Please post it then

[TheAppletons]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

And a MORE recent video has now since clarified that.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I hope your savings (per por.161/162) last you for a very long time, such that you only remit your pre-1-Jan-2024 savings, and that  you don't screw up with regard to your thinking on income that selected DTAs note are tax exempt (and hence are not to be considered assessable).

 

Thanks for your concern. They are in a Thai FCA and I have no need to remit them, they are already here.

 

My Uk stuff, stays in the UK.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Please post it then

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpTYIjXCqE

[redwood1]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This is getting kind of silly.

If you don't file because your income is exempt and you don't have accessable income over the threshold, and you also keep good RECORDS, in the unlikely event that you're called in about that, you prove your situation, and the worse that can happen is a fine for not filing when you were supposed. (But you're not supposed to).

If people are going to push anything, push learning about the different kinds of income being accessible or not, and stop pushing unnecessary filing

 

Cyclist sure does not need your type, using common sense and other such non-sense.....

 

It gets in the way of his daily ranting and raving to prove he is always right and everyone else posting here is wrong....