Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, that's it then. 

 

No need for any foreigners to file.

 

Mods, please close all the tax threads.  The conclusion is no foreigners have to file because the TRD have no way of knowing, or finding out, the "true" source of a foreigners income.  Actually, they can't even make foreigners file because it's a "self assessment" system.

 

I din't say that.  I said it's up to us to be good second-class non-citizens and file, that it's an honour system, and we self-determine assessability.  TRD isn't likely to be receiving full bank account reports on all foreigners. 

 

I'd expect they might get some flagged accounts due to suspicious activity or unnatural cash flows.  In that case, ya might be called in for an interview, and if you can show your deposits are legitimately non-assessable, off you go.  If not, you may be assessed tax.

 

If you don't need to file, don't, but keep good records.

If you are required and don't, you'll probably not be bothered, unless your account activity is particularly irregular.

 

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

they have NOTHING in place to force foreigners to prove the source of their remittances.

 

They have audits, and following a failed audit they have fines and fees, and persecution for non-payment.  Might even involve jail time.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Rubbish  comment about most people getting more pension then the allowances and just beggar to differ that is all ok

Take my country, Australia, for example. 

 

The pension is $1047AUD.  Aussie aged pensioners lose their supplements if they live overseas. 

 

$1047 x 26 (fortnightly) = $27,222AUD.

 

$27,222 x 21.5 baht (current exchange rate) = 585,273 baht.

 

Here's Thailand's tax brackets. 

 

There are some deductions for over 65 and married, but still some tax to pay. 

 

Can you post some figures showing some pensions that do not go over the threshold, that are not covered by a DTA, like Australia's? 

 

Thailand Income Tax Rates 

Thailand’s personal income tax rates are progressive, ranging from 0% to 35%. 

Taxable Income (THB)	Tax Rate
0 – 150,000	0%
150,001 – 300,000	5%
300,001 – 500,000	10%
500,001 – 750,000	15%
750,001 – 1,000,000	20%
1,000,001 – 2,000,000	25%
2,000,001 – 5,000,000	30%
Over 5,000,000	35%

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/how-much-age-pension-you-can-get?context=22526

 

Per fortnight	Single	Couple each	Couple combined	Couple apart due to ill health
Maximum basic rate	$1,047.10	$789.30	$1,578.60	$1,047.10
Maximum Pension Supplement	$83.20	$62.70	$125.40	$83.20
Energy Supplement	$14.10	$10.60	$21.20	$14.10
Total	$1,144.40	$862.60	$1,725.20	$1,144.40

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not in a position to argue arcane law to the TRD in Thailand. 

Not argue with TRD, but discuss with Expatthaitax why they say you can't put your IRA withdrawals in the pre 2024 income basket. Hopefully, you could do that for free, by signing up for the 15 minute dialogue with them, as advertised by their website. Certainly that could give you a 'warm fuzzy,' -- or not -- about having to declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return. Worth the effort, for sure.

 

Meanwhile, I'll just go by the following, in digesting any advice from Expatthaitax:

Quote

Tax Advisory Disclaimer

The content provided on this website is intended for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional tax advice. Our materials are designed to offer general guidance on tax-related matters and should not be relied upon for personal tax decisions. Everyone’s tax situation is unique and tax laws are subject to change. We strongly recommend consulting with one of our qualified tax advisors to receive advice tailored to your specific circumstances.

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, BE88 said:

 

To avoid all the new problems and that's what I'm doing this year even though I've been here for over ten years waiting to see what will happen

 

I'm giving Thailand a chance this year.  I could have vacated for 6 months in 2024, but decided to be in the game for the first year.  

 

Depending on how this unfolds, it will determine whether I remain in Thailand for the second half of 2025. 

 

Your decision ensures you have nothing to worry about, and can sit back and laugh at it all.  Good for you.  

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Not argue with TRD, but discuss with Expatthaitax why they say you can't put your IRA withdrawals in the pre 2024 income basket. Hopefully, you could do that for free, by signing up for the 15 minute dialogue with them, as advertised by their website. Certainly that could give you a 'warm fuzzy,' -- or not -- about having to declare your IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return. Worth the effort, for sure.

 

Meanwhile, I'll just go by the following, in digesting any advice from Expatthaitax:

 

Those sessions are about punching in numbers. I already know what they'll say about IRAs. That they confirmed their opinion with TRD.

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The way the game is currently played is you are a farang, with no rights here. 

 

Why do you think farang will get such an easy free pass? 

 

There effectively haven't been any changes, unless you remit current year assessable income.

 

We still decide which remittances are assessable.

We still decide if we are required to file a return.

We still file only if we wanna.

TRD still accepts our null filings without question.

All that remains the same, despite Kenya signing the CRS treaty.

 

An American remitting 100K baht of exempt social security benefits every month is still where he was last year.

 

No need TIN, no need file.

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

the best I can offer is that they seek professional advice from a Thai registered advisor if they are in doubt.  

Why? 

 

According to some, we can all just say our income is not assessable.  Simple as that.  

 

2 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

I have saved pre 2024 income, a DTA exempt Pension and an LTR Visa - I can easily prove all of this if ever requested.

And the TRD knows all this how????

 

Once again, I am speaking in general terms.  Not everyone has an LTR. 

 

2 hours ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Everyone's situation will be different including yours KhunHeineken.

True, but the TRD knows NOTHING about our individual circumstances, accept that we have remitted FUNDS over the threshold. 

 

Can you see the need the TRD may have to establish the source of one's income?  If so, how do you think the TRD would go about doing so?

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Are you sure about that?

Yeah, pretty sure.

 

I've never seen a Thai passport with a Thailand visa in it, have you?    

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

THAT is the CRS boogerman some have been harping on about.

 

You are required to confirm your identity to your financial institution where you have an account, and to declare any other countries where you fall under their tax jurisdiction.

 

That's it.  Done.

They already had my ID. which is my passport, which is obviously my nationality.

 

Why only Kasikorn doing it????

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No idea what you are talking about.

 

That's why i put a 'question mark' at the end of that sentence as I was not certain.  I had though you stated somewhere por.161/162 covered your 2024 income, but likely I have you confused with someone else.

 

Regardless, if you take the time to check, you will discover there is not always a lot of difference between Thai language Thai tax return forms and English language Thai tax return forms.  The Thai language year 2024 tax return forms have been out for a long time.

 

If you do still believe you meet the assessable remitted income requirement needing you to file a Thai tax return for the 2024 tax year, you may wish to start giving some thought now as to what you will do if it ends up being only a handful of days away before the tax return submission due date, with no English language year 2024 Thai tax forms.  

 

I hope for those in your situation it does not come down to that, but it might, so its best to have a backup plan.

 

As I posted previous, if it were me, if no English language Thai tax return, in the few days prior to the tax return submission due date, and IF I had remitted assessable income to Thailand, I would show up at the local Thai RD office, with (in addition to passport, residence information ... ) :

* all one's pertinent financial records showing remitted income

* proof (best possible) showing source of the remitted income

* copy (in Thai !! language ) of Double Tax Agreement with source country of one's income - WITH the relevant section HIGHLIGHTED that states one's 'civil service or military' pension can only be taxed in the source country (which is NOT Thailand),

* copy (in Thai !! language ) of por.161.162 in case of any remitted any pre-1-Jan-2024 savings (together with all relevant bank statements as of 31-Dec-2023 proving the money was credibly savings from before 1-Jan-2024)

* copy (in Thai i!! language ) of Royal Decree-18 (to prove income not to be taxed by Thailand in a DTA is considered exempt income).

 

In your case, given the English language 2024 Thai tax return form is likely to be similar to the English language 2017 to 2023 tax return forms, or like the CURRENT Thai language 2024 Thai tax return form (with no location for the DTA exempt income to be listed as exempt), I suspect the RD officials will either

 

(1) conclude you not owe any tax and that they will tell you a tax return is not needed, or

 

(2) put in your exempt income in the tax form, not deduct the income and try to double tax you on it, much to your chagrin and annoyance, or

 

(3) pull their hair out at there being no place to place your exempt (via DTA) remitted foreign income as being exempt, and thus phone Bangkok begging for help, or

 

(4) place the exempt income deduction in the wrong place of the tax return, claim you owe no money and then a few months later call you back on the phone and note your income tax return (that they helped fill out) failed a quality check, and you need to come into their office to sort the mess they created with you (else you may owe money).

 

Good luck.

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I already know what they'll say about IRAs. That they confirmed their opinion with TRD.

You're probably right. I just wonder how they phrased their hypothesis on pre 2024 income -- and was the person they consulted at TRD in a decision making position -- and/or was there something in writing presented?

 

I suppose we'll never know. I guess if a few other tax hand holding organizations came to back up Expatthaitax, I might change my beliefs. Otherwise, I wouldn't have any doubts about not declaring IRA withdrawals on a Thai tax return -- as my position is certainly not a fraudulent position, but is certainly a logical argument based on the Por 162 language. I rest my case -- unless further information becomes available.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

And they certainly don't have the resources -- nor would a cost/benefit analysis ever give them the resources -- to query every expat.

Expat goes to a TRD office because he needs a clearance certificate for his extension. 

 

He hands over a bank document showing his remittances for the last calendar year. 

 

Staff assess it's over the threshold, allow for age and marital status deductions, if any, and throw the bill at him.

 

Bang on about assessable, non assessable, DTA's, pre 2024 savings, loans blah blah blah blah and the staff will say, "you come back tomorrow. next customer please." 

 

Eventually, the expat will just pay. 

 

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Best they can do is, have random compliance audits, based on: expats here for over 180 days, and who have remittances exceeding some high amount.

No, best they can do is say you need a certificate from the TRD or immigration will not process your extension. 

 

Cheapest, easiest, and most effective way to force compliance.  It forces ALL foreigners to go to a TRD office, assessable, non assessable, DTA, pre 2024 savings, loan whatever. 

 

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

This they could probably do with relatively simple data mining of immigration and banks.

Yes, but that would be "chasing."  Why chase, when you can make them come to you? 

 

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

And, I wouldn't even hold my breath for this scenario. Self-assess with integrity -- and don't worry about your golf game being interupted by the TRD. Relax.

There are no right and wrong answers. 

 

Only time will tell how this unfolds. 

[NoDisplayName]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

They already had my ID. which is my passport, which is obviously my nationality.

 

Why only Kasikorn doing it????

 

You don't understand.  It's a CRS paperwork drill.  You need to fill out a specific form so that the bank can check their tickbox.

 

I show my passport when I open an account.

Still have to fill out the IRS form though.

 

All banks should be having NEW account openers filling out the forms upon opening.  Banks will be having OLD account holders filling out the forms throughout the year. 

 

They don't all have to have the OLD accounts done now, but before some cutoff date.  Some banks will get around to it sooner than others.  I anticipate BKK Bank sending me CRS forms sometime this year, even though they have my passport AND my FATCA paperwork.

[NoDisplayName]

17 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

If you do still believe you meet the assessable remitted income requirement needing you to file a Thai tax return for the 2024 tax year, you may wish to start giving some thought now as to what you will do if it ends up being only a handful of days away before the tax return submission due date, with no English language year 2024 Thai tax forms.  

 

In that case, either:

 

1)  Download the 2023 English form with year conveniently left blank, fill in "2024", then fill out as normal, declaring assessable income only, and mail in or take in person.

 

2)  Use the online system and submit a Thai language 2024 form, declaring your assessable income, then from within the system, link to your bank account and transfer the tax due.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

As property of Uncle Sam, I've had to fill out IRS "know your customer" forms due to FATCA since forever.  You're just getting the same treatment. 

 

With Thailand, along with Kenya, implementing CRS, all new accounts will have to fill out CRS/FATCA paperwork, and all the banks will be going back through existing accounts to have account holders fill out the CRS papers.

 

Some sooner than later.  Not all the banks will be on the same schedule getting the CRS forms to their existing account holders.

I have bank accounts in a few other countries. 

 

Why has it triggered only in Thailand, and only at Kasikorn? 

[JimGant]

25 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Can you see the need the TRD may have to establish the source of one's income?  If so, how do you think the TRD would go about doing so?

Hire another 50,000 agents, versed in 61 different DTAs, and paid several millions of baht per year - to collect, if lucky, maybe 1% of the cost from interviews with 300,000 farangs? Don't think so.

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have bank accounts in a few other countries. 

 

Why has it triggered only in Thailand, and only at Kasikorn? 

 

Jeeze, man, this ain't rockette seance!

I'd expect this from CRS guy, not you.

 

Thailand is implementing CRS this year.  The banks have to get THEIR records in order.  That means all non-Thai customers will have to fill out a form.  New customers first, then existing customers.

 

It's only Kasikorn for now.  The other banks will get around to it, eventually, when they get around to it.  After all, Thai banks are not known for their efficiency.

 

Other countries are on different timelines.

 

[oldcpu]

30 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

They already had my ID. which is my passport, which is obviously my nationality.

 

Why only Kasikorn doing it????

 

They not only want that, they want you to sign a very specific form with that information. 

 

Don't forget - banks have a massive bureaucracy behind them , and bureaucracies love paperwork.

 

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

In that case, either:

 

1)  Download the 2023 English form with year conveniently left blank, fill in "2024", then fill out as normal, declaring assessable income only, and mail in or take in person.

 

2)  Use the online system and submit a Thai language 2024 form, declaring your assessable income, then from within the system, link to your bank account and transfer the tax due.

 

i thought of that.

 

But the problem i see is if one's income is exempt Thai tax income (per DTAs and Royal Decree-18) where can one list the declared exempt income in an exemption list?   There is no place for such.  Believe me.  I looked.

 

[The reply was for Cyclist who appears determined to list his exempt income (exempt per the DTA) in a Thai tax return form).

[oldcpu]

14 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have bank accounts in a few other countries. 

 

Why has it triggered only in Thailand, and only at Kasikorn? 

 

Canada asked for such from me in a couple of trading accounts.

 

And years back when opening accounts in Canada I had to provide such (and sign some forms).

[NoDisplayName]

57 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

[The reply was for Cyclist who appears determined to list his exempt income (exempt per the DTA) in a Thai tax return form).

 

Well, he can list his non-assessable remittances on his Kenyan tax return, in accordance with bizarro world CRS rules.

 

In Thailand and Singapore, we don't declare non-assessable remittances.

 

But that is all speculation.  The poster of which you speak has only ASSESSABLE income to declare.  He can declare it on the tax form in the prescribed location under section 1(1), on the form, income derived from employment, he can take his 60K deduction, on the form, he can take his 100K pension allowance, on the form.  He can pay his tax by bank transfer from within the system while filing.

 

Fortunately, the poster did not pay tax on that pension in his home country, else he'd have a tax credit with no place on the form to claim it.  Dodged a bullet there!  He can't file in CRS land without a Kenyan tax ID number, and those are difficult to attain without being a certified Nigerian prince.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

Canada asked for such from me in a couple of trading accounts.

 

And years back when opening accounts in Canada I had to provide such (and sign some forms).

 

My Thai brokerage wants a new FATCA-related IRS Form W-9 every January.

[The Cyclist]

10 hours ago, oldcpu said:

That's why i put a 'question mark' at the end of that sentence as I was not certain.  I had though you stated somewhere por.161/162 covered your 2024 income, but likely I have you confused with someone else.

 

Yeah, you're confused

 

UK - Thai DTA covers my income.

 

I can read from that DTA that the UK has Exclusive taxation Rights, therefore cannot be taxed in Thailand.

 

What that DTA does not say, is that if I am a Tax Resident of Thailand, I am excused, exempted, no need to comply, should Thailand want Tax Residents to declare their income.

 

And it is clear from yesterday's video ( Right at the very start ) If you are a Tax Resident of Thailand, remit income from the 01 Jan 2024, that income is considered Assessable income.

 

Further on in the video, it also makes it clear, what paperwork / evidence, is required to ensure that you pay no Thai Tax on your income.

 

You are free to believe whatever you like.

 

I believe that the LTR, the same as a DTA will exempt you paying Tax inThailand,

 

It does not exempt you from filing a tax return, if you are a Tax Resident and remit income from 01 Jan 2024.

 

I expected to see a Ranty video this morning from Mr Benjamin Hart, ripping into yesterday's video, After all, surely it is a video that is fearmongering, passing falsehoods, by people who should be arrested for delving into restricted occupations.

 

Would that cover the head of the RD's Legal Dept ?

 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yeah, you're confused

 

UK - Thai DTA covers my income.

 

I can read from that DTA that the UK has Exclusive taxation Rights, therefore cannot be taxed in Thailand.

 

I never stated it did not.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

What that DTA does not say, is that if I am a Tax Resident of Thailand, I am excused, exempted, no need to comply, should Thailand want Tax Residents to declare their income.

 

You do understand that you are inaccurate. right?  The Royal Decree-18 states that if such is not taxable it is exempt.

 

How many times must I post that (Royal Decree-18 noting non-taxable income in a DTA is tax exempt) for you understand.  Exempt. Exempt. Exempt.  OK?  Exempt.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

And it is clear from yesterday's video ( Right at the very start ) If you are a Tax Resident of Thailand, remit income from the 01 Jan 2024, that income is considered Assessable income.

 

And then as i pointed out, the RD official noted there is exempt income associated with defining assessable income.

 

You remember that. Right?  I even pointed the precise spot in the video for you.  Did you not check that out?

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

I believe that the LTR, the same as a DTA will exempt you paying Tax inThailand,

 

I agree a DTA (dependent on income and DTA wording) may exempt a Thai resident from paying tax on those income sources, but i don't agree with your interpretation to include such as assessable income (when I have shown its not to be included as assessable income, ... shown in practice going back years in terms of how Thailand RD implements this, and also shown by providing you the appropriate references why).

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

It does not exempt you from filing a tax return, if you are a Tax Resident and remit income from 01 Jan 2024.

 

It does exempt one if such means exempt from the Thai tax calculation, which means not to go in the tax tax return form.

 

now ... 

 

Don't get me wrong.

 

I hope this works out for you, despite my believing your approach/interpetation is wrong. It may cost you money.  And if others follow your approach it may cost them money. Where legally they should not be paying any money.  That is your choice and their choice.

 

I am most curious to learn how you manage to list your non-assessable income (due to Royal Decree/DTA) as being exempt in a Thailand tax form , where  you insist you need to file such a tax form, despite there being no place to list the income as exempt.

 

I remind you again, DTAs and Royal Decree-18 have been around for a very very long time. ok?  A long time.  Where there has always been a requirement in Thailand to file income tax returns if money (pensions) remitted into Thailand in the year such earned. Ok ?  And despite that, with many years of tax return forms, there has never been a place to list DTA/Royal-Decree exempt income as being exempt.

 

Lets all hope that your wish that the 2024 tax form in English language (unlike the Thai language 2024 tax form) has a field to list as an exemption your income.  I, for one, would not bet on that.

 

[TheAppletons]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

now ... 

 

 

  While I admire your patience and persistence, I don't know why you even bother.

 

  I stopped reading/responding to the low IQ, low information posters and the trolls.  

 

  The former group is either illiterate or intellectually incapable of logic/reason and the latter group is just here for the attention.  Many times, the two groups intersect.

[oldcpu]

Just now, TheAppletons said:

 

  While I admire your patience and persistence, I don't know why you even bother.

 

 

Because I am afraid others, who do not have the time to research this, and who share his paranoia, will blindly follow them, and it could cost them both time and money.

 

That would be a shame.

 

I think he honestly believes his approach - despite being show where its not valid.

[Phillip9]

10 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

and the latter group is just here for the attention.

 

I think mostly this.  There are a lot of trolls on this thread making intentionally illogical arguments just to get attention and prompt responses.

[redwood1]

10 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

 

I think mostly this.  There are a lot of trolls on this thread making intentionally illogical arguments just to get attention and prompt responses.

 

This thread?

 

Heck this has been going on since the first page of the the first tax thread over a year ago.....There have been about 10-15 big tax threads already.. most now abandoned on this forum....

 

And not much has changed really from day #1......

[Phillip9]

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

21 minutes ago, Phillip9 said:

I think mostly this.  There are a lot of trolls on this thread making intentionally illogical arguments just to get attention and prompt responses.

 

This thread?

 

True, I shouldn't have limited my comment to this thread.  The same problem occurs on many AN threads and most other internet forums also.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

You do understand that you are inaccurate. right?  The Royal Decree-18 states that if such is not taxable it is exempt.

 

I will let Mr Hart explain it to 

 

Assessability does not mean liability.

 

 

 

Now go and watch the 1st 10 minutes of the latest video.

 

Thai tax Resident - Check

 

Remit income after 01 Jan 2024 - Check.

 

That income is assessable income.

 

There are various ways, as explained in the video yesterday, as to how this income has no tax liability.

 

* Bank Statements to prove prior 01 Jan 2024 Savings

 

* DTA's to prove that other Country has exclusive taxation rights on that income.

 

* DTA's and tax receipts  to prove that the income is subject to tax credits,

 

* Some Visas exempt your income from Thai tax..

 

As examples.

 

It is laid out in simple terms by the Expatthai video with the head of the RD Legal Department.

 

But mentalists think they know better than the Head of the RD Legal Department.

 

And while I'm here, Does any of the Section 42  ( Exempt income ) apply to you ?
 

29 different types, any that you could manage to shoehorn onto a tax filing.

 

Just another example of why I think your understanding of exempt income is wrong.