7 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

One might think that by limiting pre-2024 income this way, it would generate more business for tax advisory services; widening the meaning of pre-2024 savings would reduce the need for paid assistance on filing tax returns for years going forward.

Except for Carden's office, one must still file a return to declare the remittance of pre-2024 income even though it is exempt from calculation of tax, so you still need his services to file using attachments to report what cannot be reported on the tax form.

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Tax?  What tax?  Convert in a year(s) you're on a long vacation with no significant income.

Sorry, I must be dense. How can I avoid tax on a conversion to a Roth by being on a long vacation? -- not being in the US for 180 days doesn't quite play out for a citizen. And no significant income? Kinda hard to do if you've got a significant annual pension.

Just now, JimGant said:

Sorry, I must be dense. How can I avoid tax on a conversion to a Roth by being on a long vacation? -- not being in the US for 180 days doesn't quite play out for a citizen. And no significant income? Kinda hard to do if you've got a significant annual pension.

 

Depends on your situation.  Roth conversion is added to ordinary income.  Take a year sabbatical with no salary, maybe harvest a stock loss.  Take another year-long vacation........lather, rinse, repeat.

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

One of the interesting things they were very clear about, which was one of the important points I wanted to seek advice on, was whether pre-2024 savings would only be counted as CASH holdings, or also include the value of stock holdings, in other words, total account balances as of the end of 2023. And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

 

That's an interesting interpretation.  Not one I expected, but one I would be happy to see.

 

I suspect most of use with trading accounts that are a mix of cash and equities, have a 31-Dec-2023 record as the total value (cash + share price at close business 31-Dec-2023) of our savings.  I believe this and all subsequent trading / cash records then need to be kept, if desired to show subsequent remittances to Thailand came from the pre-1-Jan-2024 amount..

On 1/31/2025 at 8:08 AM, Raindancer said:

Which begs the question- to obtain a TIN or not, based upon one's own circumstances. 

 

My Uk state pension falls below my current exemptions of 560k per year.

My Military salary/ pension, is covered under the DTA agreement. 

 

Yes, I'm aware of the 60/ 120k per annum rule.

 

It seems pointless filing a TIN, when so many have reported that their TRD local offices, have stated " no need".

 

So, I have records of all uk/ Thailand transfers, plus HMRC documentation of income and tax paid.  Along with the annual P60 confirming everything.

 

Guess I'll just wait out.

What are these 560k exemptions?

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

 

One of the interesting things they were very clear about, which was one of the important points I wanted to seek advice on, was whether pre-2024 savings would only be counted as CASH holdings, or also include the value of stock holdings, in other words, total account balances as of the end of 2023. And they were very clear without any waffling that any pre-2024 savings calculation would be based on TOTAL account balances, stock and cash balances inclusive.

 

 

And Expat Tax Thailand were very clear in one of their webinars that it is only cash holdings ! No stocks or shares, superannuation or anything else, just cash in the bank. I would have to go back and watch it again, but I think that was confirmed by a TRD official in one of their Q&A videos.

On 1/30/2025 at 6:26 PM, Sheryl said:

Thank you for sharing this. However in your case it appears your remittances were assessable, even though no tax due.

 

For people like myself whose remittances are all  non-assessable , most reports from tax offices say not to file.  Which does not jibe with "must file if a tax resident". 

 

Further,  there is no way on the current tax forms to indicate non-assessable income. 

I went to the local Rev Dept in Pranb*ri the other day

 explained  ( my wife) to the gentleman that tried to assit that all the money brought in was from US Social Security / non assessable .... 

 came armed with my SS statement and a listing of all the Wise transfers .   he asked how much the  US dollar amt equated to in Baht, and as soon as we showed him the conversion . his eyes looked like  this

and he started with.   don't matter.. you will have to pay tax..  ..but I can help you and give you discount deductions to save some money

I showed him and played the same video from the Thai Rev lawyers..    and mentioned the US/Thai DTA   .... nahh    you have to pay ..  

 I said.  ok ..  we will just go to an acct and have them "file" for us ..   thank you 

 

all paperwork back in the drawer for safe keeping ... ,,     no filing required...

 

On 2/9/2025 at 3:30 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Not my Buddy. 

 

He was put forward to counter my "scaremongering" by members who are ostriches with their head in the sand, now here he is saying the tax policy will be linked to immigration and visas.

 

Watch 13:10 to 13:45.

 

It's soooooooo funny. 

 

The video is only hours old. 

 

 

 

 

What happened to Billy-Bong-Ben? He went from being the happy Thai citizen and being so positive about everything in the hub of hubs, to being a fed-up, frustrated farang that's had enough and can't take it anymore.
 

He also flip-flops on his rhetoric all the time, but that's what makes the hub of u-turns the perfect place for him. 

16 minutes ago, FriscoKid said:

 

What happened to Billy-Bong-Ben? He went from being the happy Thai citizen and being so positive about everything in the hub of hubs, to being a fed-up, frustrated farang that's had enough and can't take it anymore.
 

He also flip-flops on his rhetoric all the time, but that's what makes the hub of u-turns the perfect place for him. 

 

Before COVID, Ben viewed Thailand through rose colored glasses, a common theme for noobs. He was often apologetic about the Thai government’s decisions and dismissive of the usual foreigner complaints. However, during the COVID lockdowns and restrictions, his perspective shifted, and he became increasingly dissatisfied with how things were handled. If you watch his older videos, you’ll notice a stark contrast, what was once mild criticism or justification has now turned into full blown rants against the Thai government. For his own good, though, he might want to tone it down before someone in power who doesn’t appreciate it takes notice.

 

This trajectory is common among long term expats: initial infatuation, gradual disenchantment, and eventually either acceptance or outright frustration. The difference with Ben is that he actually became a Thai citizen well before the romance wore off, something most foreigners never do, which only complicates things further for him.

10 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Thanks... Appreciate the update.

 

Unfortunately, my wife, bless her soul, who's proficient in English and Thai, nonetheless would not be a person I'd expect to understand and correctly translate Thai Revenue Department advice about the implications of the Double Taxation Treaty between Thailand and my home country, and whether or not an actual tax filing is required to make use of its provisions....

Yes and agree and others stating as you are a British Citizen surely your own Government should be dealing with it and yes trying to explain so many differing views  but have been told several times that my personal allowances exceed my income and you do not need to file.

Also they have asked the question "Do you work here"?
No so reason to file and yes aware of the 220K and also got a pink Id card and again there is no need.

What date did this tax stuff come into effect. I might be due.

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

This is normal.  Book bank is not sufficient. 

 

The general teller can produce the form you need, ask for a "withholding tax certificate."  Provide your ID and passbook(s).  Should take 5 minutes, free of charge. 

 

Filled out in triplicate on dot-matrix printer with carbon-paper sheets in-betwixt.  You get two copies - one for your records, one for TRD.  You'll get a set for each account paying interest and withholding tax.  Make sure they rubber-stamp the date and bank seal.

 

If the process turns out easy enough for you, it's still possible to file late returns for 2022 and 2023 and get your withholding tax refunded.  (Will be charged one 200-baht late fee.)  If you're only getting the statement(s) for one account, just have the teller make you a copy for each year.

 

 

Thanks for that information, my comment on on having to get a withholding tax certificate I think seems to be over the top, when you are supplying bank statements to show it all in black and white, how more legitimate do you need to get, anyway all I can go on is how we do it back in Australia, i made a few changes back in 2023 without knowing of the looming lodging of tax returns, my in house accountant on returning from both bank and revenue department did a spread sheet showing money ins and tax implications, which is zero, such a honey, she would have been a blessing all these years ago back home I was self employed doing my books and quarterly tax and GST, which I hated doing and always left it to the last minute, then paid an accountant to put it all together for the end of the tax year.

 

On 1/31/2025 at 10:30 AM, Moonlover said:

But @Sheryl Why should there be? If it's non-assessable it doesn't need to be entered on a tax return. IMO All it's likely to do is cause confusion amongst TRD staff who have never heard of DTAs until this year.

 

 

Yes I agree with you. As I've already stated, my assessable reemitted income is well below my Thai tax threshold. Therefor by NOT submitting a tax return I will NOT be avoiding or evading tax, so would be nothing that they can hang me for. No crime = no punishment.

 

To my knowledge, no one in the TRD has indicated that failure to submit a tax return could result in problems with visas/extensions. That seems to emanate from tax advisers and mischievous/ill-informed wanna be tax advisers. The former of course having a vested interest in watching the community panic over this.

 

In quite a large poll of expats by the 'Thai Enquirer', 58% indicated that they WILL NOT be filing tax returns. Does one suppose that TRD would go to all trouble chasing these expats, only to discover that most them will not owe them any tax anyway or very little if they do? To my mind it seems like a very unlikely scenario..

 

I've read a great deal regarding this matter and taken on board experiences posted on this and other forums and my conclusion is:

 

No TIN, no tax file, sit back and relax. 

One female officer at revenue dept, Phuket RD branch 2 answered my enquiry whether applying Tax Id is mandatory or not via Google Voice Translator.

 

On 1/31/2025 at 7:39 AM, jesimps said:

Regarding the UK/Thai DTA, are you an UK ex government worker? I've been advised by a lawyer here that those in this category do not need to file in Thailand. I've read the DTA and it does state that those on a government (not state) pension ie civil servants are exempt from paying tax on it here. I welcome comments from anyone who's been advised differently.

Hi jesimps

I am also on a govt pension IE Fire service, and also been told by a tax consultant that I do not need to file .

But if audited I presume evidence produced via payslips or P60 would suffice.

10 hours ago, CFCol said:

What are these 560k exemptions?

Ok 
OAE  over 65 years old     190K
Personal Allowance             60K
PA wife if joint                       60K
1st income tax                      150K
Pension allowance                100K
 TOTAL                                     560k
 

Also, yet again and have been up to my local Revenue office several times directly and indirectly and they have asked " Do I work in Thailand ?"
No I do not so you do not need to file a return.

I also raised that my income is less than  than my personal allowances and have pink ID card and again makes no difference there is no need to file.

Also you will be aware of thousands upon thousands of differing opinions by so many tax experts and yes the Revenue Offices and Officials/

Also there are only the 190k and 100k listed on out of date forms.

 

7 minutes ago, Nabbiex said:

One female officer at revenue dept, Phuket RD branch 2 answered my enquiry whether applying Tax Id is mandatory or not via Google Voice Translator.

 

What Nationality are you there are 61 different ones?

 

2 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Ok 
OAE  over 65 years old     190K
Personal Allowance             60K
PA wife if joint                       60K
1st income tax                      150K
Pension allowance                100K
 TOTAL                                     560k
 

Also, yet again and have been up to my local Revenue office several times directly and indirectly and they have asked " Do I work in Thailand ?"
No I do not so you do not need to file a return.

I also raised that my income is less than  than my personal allowances and have pink ID card and again makes no difference there is no need to file.

Also you will be aware of thousands upon thousands of differing opinions by so many tax experts and yes the Revenue Offices and Officials/


 

 

They way they know there s.h.i.t. here id would get it in writing "no need to lodge" and signed by the chief 

18 minutes ago, Nabbiex said:

One female officer at revenue dept, Phuket RD branch 2 answered my enquiry whether applying Tax Id is mandatory or not via Google Voice Translator.

 

 

Interesting, this is similar to a number of reports received. 

 

Seems some RD officials are simplifying the regulations to:

 

If you are from a country with a double tax agreement = no need to pay Thai Tax or get a Tax ID. 

 

That'll work well for most of us, roll with it , I say................!!! 

 

 

A lengthy off topic post has been removed

17 minutes ago, Njoku said:

They way they know there s.h.i.t. here id would get it in writing "no need to lodge" and signed by the chief 

Useless against a "The chief has moved" or "The rules have changed" reply.

28 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

What Nationality are you there are 61 different ones?

 

uk

1 hour ago, Nabbiex said:

One female officer at revenue dept, Phuket RD branch 2 answered my enquiry whether applying Tax Id is mandatory or not via Google Voice Translator.

 

 

38 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Interesting, this is similar to a number of reports received. 

 

Seems some RD officials are simplifying the regulations to:

 

If you are from a country with a double tax agreement = no need to pay Thai Tax or get a Tax ID. 

 

That'll work well for most of us, roll with it , I say................!!! 

 

 

On the 18th Sept 2023 an article in the Thai Enquirer was amongst the first to announce these amendments (not rules) to the Thai tax code. That article included following paragraph:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

I repeated this paragraph many times on this forum but it was consistently brushed aside. Maybe now folks will start to take note. 

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

 

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

 

On the 18th Sept 2023 an article in the Thai Enquirer was amongst the first to announce these amendments (not rules) to the Thai tax code. That article included following paragraph:

 

'The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

I repeated this paragraph many times on this forum but it was consistently brushed aside. Maybe now folks will start to take note. 

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/50744/thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/

 

 

 

A quick look suggests that article references POR.161, which was later clarified more with POR.162.

 

Further, note that articles massive qualification statement:

Quote

It is unclear at this point how this will apply to foreigners living in Thailand on a retirement visa.

 

With regards to the Thai Enquirer article stating "exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand" that is IMHO a simplification to which most agree it is a simplification.

 

Its more complex that that I believe.

 

In the case of some DTAs, both Thailand and the source-country of the pension (for example), can tax the pension. In that case, one is into tax returns and tax credits (unless one has an LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, or LTR-WFTP visa). 

 

In the case of some other DTAs, only the source country of the pension can tax the pension (or similar remuneration) - where in this case countries such as Canada (with its DTA with Thailand) and other country's civil service/military pensions only being taxable in the source-country. In that case, if no other income, there is no need for TIN nor tax returns.

 

And in other cases (Germany springs to mind) only Thailand can tax a German state pension (by state pension I mean NOT civil servant/NOT military)  and not Germany tax the state pension. In that case such state pensions if received after 31-Dec-2023 and if remitted to Thailand are to be taxed in Thailand (also only  if Thailand taxation threshold exceed). Further complications are tax return filing thresholds ... and of course presence of an LTR-WP, LTR-WGC and LTR-WFTP visa plays a factor.

 

So its very DTA specific here as well as  there being some other factors.

 

... and add to that a paranoid view by some who (IMHO) incorrectly claim that a TIN and Tax Return is needed still, despite the Thai law making it clear in some cases that  DTAs (as called up by Royal Decree-18) can make it clear some pensions are exempt Thai tax and hence in some cases legal that no Thai tax return need be filed.

 

Ergo lots of confusion, not per se due strictly to Thai RD, but rather due to the paranoia (although the paranoid may call it ultra conservatism) on this forum.

 

3 hours ago, Nabbiex said:

One female officer at revenue dept, Phuket RD branch 2 answered my enquiry whether applying Tax Id is mandatory or not via Google Voice Translator.

 

 

That, as a blanket statement, simply is not true....

 

Having a DTA with Thailand doesn't automatically exempt everyone from needing a TIN, filing a Thai tax return or owing Thai taxes.

 

However, having a DTA for one's home country MAY mean that given a particular individual's types of income and amounts remitted into Thailand, that no tax filing is required and/or no taxes will be owed.

 

But that determination is going to depend on a lot of individual factors that require delving into that person's financial details.

 

8 hours ago, Luuk Chaai said:

I went to the local Rev Dept in Pranb*ri the other day

 explained  ( my wife) to the gentleman that tried to assit that all the money brought in was from US Social Security / non assessable .... 

 came armed with my SS statement and a listing of all the Wise transfers .   he asked how much the  US dollar amt equated to in Baht, and as soon as we showed him the conversion . his eyes looked like  this

and he started with.   don't matter.. you will have to pay tax..  ..but I can help you and give you discount deductions to save some money

I showed him and played the same video from the Thai Rev lawyers..    and mentioned the US/Thai DTA   .... nahh    you have to pay ..  

 I said.  ok ..  we will just go to an acct and have them "file" for us ..   thank you 

 

all paperwork back in the drawer for safe keeping ... ,,     no filing required...

 

 

I think this is one of the great fears of this new tax interpretation: it has opened up a whole new personal revenue stream for unscrupulous TRD staff, who will do you a favour for "the usual". Another reason why IMM & TRD are unlikely to be bedfellows - both are competing for "the usual", and combining their procedures might screw that stream up for one.

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

You can't rely on a general article and its wording from the Enquirer back in 2023 to accurately reflect all the details and nuances that apply when looking at what particular DTAs spell out.  Thailand has some 60+ DTAs with various countries, and the specifics vary from DTA to DTA. You gotta look at them on an individual country basis.

 

What probably is generally true, from DTA to DTA, is the general notion that if Thailand is entitled to tax some particular income that you've already been taxed for in your home country, that you're generally entitled to claim the home country tax paid as credits against whatever Thai tax a person may owe.

 

8 hours ago, Luuk Chaai said:

he started with.   don't matter.. you will have to pay tax..  ..but I can help you and give you discount deductions to save some money

 

If the only funds you remitted into Thailand were from U.S. Social Security, then the TRD guy giving you that information was simply WRONG. U.S. SS is absolutely EXEMPT from all Thai taxation 100% and can only be taxed by the U.S., under the terms of the US-Thai DTA.

 

There's some debate about whether someone remitting only exempt foreign income is or isn't required to file a Thai tax return to document and claim that exemption. But there's NO debate on the fact that the Thais cannot assess any Thai taxes over U.S. SS income.

 

One thing that I think is becoming apparent is that for all the ordinary peon TRD staff spread throughout the country, they pretty much never had to deal with or know about the details of the 60+ different DTA treaties before. Because most foreigners here were never filing or paying Thai taxes.

 

But now with the TRD's new rules that took effect starting in 2024, suddenly there's some tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of foreigners in Thailand who potentially need to be looking at what their country's DTA says about Thai taxation, and then having to deal with those details if they decide to deal with their local TRD office. For the time being, it's a cluster-f of ignorance.

 

15 hours ago, Guavaman said:

Good approach, like getting a second opinion from another doctor.  However, all of these differing opinions from 'tax doctors' is becoming like a surreal nightmare.

 

While Carden's office refers to advice from TRD's legal staff, Expat Tax also claims that its' advice comes from TRDs' legal staff. Yet these two companies provide conflicting advice.

 

For example, Carl Turner sets up the question of pre-2024 income as an issue limited to cash in the bank here:

 

A Senior Legal Officer from Thailand’s Revenue Department Answers Expat Tax Questions

Feb 5, 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vGytBre2o

 

Transcript

35:47 so next question we get this we get many questions on this how will pre 2024 cash

 

35:48 Pre-2024 income cash in the bank

 

35:53 in the bank so Savings in the bank before 2024 uh how will the savings be treated under the new rule so we're talking about cash in the bank so pre 2024 income or that was actually moved into Cash how is this treated uh for okay uh so called yeah the income cash uh saving in your bank the income that you earn before 2024 is not taxed if it remains offshore or is brought into Thailand in future calendar years yes is it clear yes but it's only a capital for bank accounts or cash accounts is exempt right clear yes the interest is still taxable right yeah yeah okay ex that uh you cannot apply this to the investment or pensions no right so

so it's just for cash in the bank not pensions not pions not Investments yes yes fine that's clear right great that's really useful right fine and then the last question

 

Yep, you're absolutely correct.  There are several very key issues where the advice from Carden's office and ETT are diametrically opposite, with both saying they're basing their advice on guidance they've received from TRD officials and/or attorneys.

 

That's exactly why I wanted to ask Carden's office about the cash in the bank vs total account value issue. Because in all of the various Carden interview videos that I'd reviewed prior to going yesterday, he had NEVER used the same CASH only phrase that ETT has used repeatedly. 

 

FWIW, from what I've seen, there's also nothing in the language of the very sparse TRD regulations that have been issued that narrows exempt pre-2024 savings to being only CASH amounts, nor to only cash held in banks.

 

Just to be clear, when it came to the pre-2024 savings issue, Carden's office advice was that the exemption would apply to TOTAL balances as of the end of 2023, regardless of whether held in cash or stocks, and including all the various types of accounts, bank, credit union, brokerage, etc.

 

The other main area where they're at odds is on the issue of whether TRD wants expats who've remitted only tax exempt funds to file a Thai tax return. ETT says no Thai tax filing required in that situation. Carden's office says TRD has told them that expats need to file a zero sum return at least to claim exemptions allowed under any particular DTA.

 

It's a bad and unfortunate situation overall, which I mainly put down to the TRD's thus far failure to issue clear and public written guidance about how all this is supposed to be implemented. And there's some thinking that they haven't done so thus far because there's actually no Thai law that's been enacted thus far that supports their whole new scheme changing the rules on foreign fund remittances.

 

27 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

But now with the TRD's new rules that took effect starting in 2024, suddenly there's some tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of foreigners in Thailand who potentially need to be looking at what their country's DTA says about Thai taxation, and then having to deal with those details if they decide to deal with their local TRD office. For the time being, it's a cluster-f of ignorance.

 

 

Speaking of TRD being a clusterf of ignorance, just saw this new thread elsewhere in the forum... Yikes!

 

 

38 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Speaking of TRD being a clusterf of ignorance, just saw this new thread elsewhere in the forum... Yikes!

 

 

Pretty much what should be expected bearing in mind there is no way to record non assessable income on the official forms.

I am however amused that he posted that in the Pub..........very appropriate not.....especially as his basic understanding (other than US SS) appeared flawed.