The Personal Journey to Electric Vehicles: A Guide for Everyday Drivers

[Rimmer]

3 hours ago, mfd101 said:

I'm thinking of buying a Toyota RAV 4 HEV SUV later in the year, but the RAV 4 doesn't appear on the Thailand Toyota website so it may not be available here in Thailand?

 

My cousin in UK has one, he loves it and says it by far the best car he has ever owned

[RocketDog]

17 hours ago, steve187 said:

I think you are correct if Japan don't get their finger out they will become obsolete, like they did to the UK car manufactures, whatever your views are on Chinese manufactures, they are well ahead of any competition in the EV market 

Yep. Hyper-capitalization at work. It's the chinese answer to everything. Any country can trash another's producers if they subsidize their own products deeply enough.

 

Making more of something doesn't mean it's better.

 

40 -60% of the price of an EV is battery. Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Time will tell.

 

[JBChiangRai]

48 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Yep. Hyper-capitalization at work. It's the chinese answer to everything. Any country can trash another's producers if they subsidize their own products deeply enough.

 

Making more of something doesn't mean it's better.

 

40 -60% of the price of an EV is battery. Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Time will tell.

 

Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Please provide a link to substantiate your nonsensical claim

[suzannegoh]

On 2/2/2025 at 12:28 AM, Rimmer said:

We were not ready to make the leap to full electric and all charging rigmarole of it, also range concern so we bought a Toyota HEV Yaris Cross SUV at the end of last year which charges its self up as you drive along and as you brake.

 

We previously owned (at the same time) two Honda CRVs but owning two cars and paying huge petrol bills just doesn't make sense, so we traded them in and paid the difference on a New Toyota Yaris. what a light and day difference:

The Hondas gave us only 7.62 km per liter of fuel the Yaris gives us 27 to 30 km per liter.

The Yaris is a tad smaller and therefore much easier to park.

The Yaris has a much tighter turning circle than the Honda.

Both Hondas were incredibly noisy on any road surface from new, Honda 'said situation normal'.

The Yaris is super quite and when running on electric virtually no noise at all

The Yaris is way quicker off the mark than either of the Hondas and overtaking much quicker.

Yaris comes with all kinds of built in safety feature alarms also reversing camera, dash cams and electric seat adjustment and a great multimedia display.

 

We love it, wife loves it and as they say happy wife happy life

 

27 to 30 km per liter is remarkably good.  Is that was Toyota advertises or what you have measured?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

40 -60% of the price of an EV is battery. Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Time will tell.

I don't think I have that much time left in me.   This is considered very conservative estimate, of 2500 cycle, and still retaining 70-80% capacity.

 

[RocketDog]

26 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Please provide a link to substantiate your nonsensical claim

LOL. If you need one then you're lost anyway.

Have you ever owned a Chinese product?

[RocketDog]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I don't think I have that much time left in me.   This is considered very conservative estimate, of 2500 cycle, and still retaining 70-80% capacity.

 

Like every other product in the world, all batteries, even LiFeP, can be made well or made cheaply, but not both. All manufacturers are not created equally. China has earned a reputation for cheap goods.

 

Right before I sold my car I had to replace the 12v battery in the USA. I bought a new one with a 2 month warranty very cheaply.

 

Good luck.

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Right before I sold my car I had to replace the 12v battery in the USA. I bought a new one with a 2 month warranty very cheaply.

 

Good luck.

... explains quite a bit, nuff said 

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

LOL. If you need one then you're lost anyway.

Have you ever owned a Chinese product?

 

Lots of Chinese products.

 

Installed over a dozen TCL air conditioners

2 TCL washer/dryers

My daughter had a Chinese MGEP+ EV

We replaced it with a Chinese MG4 EV

I have a BYD Seal

Lots of Chinese mini PC's

2 of TCL TV's

 

None of these has ever had a problem.

 

You can read about UBS's teardown of a BYD Seal here (spoiler, the quality is equivalent to a premium German car but at least a generation ahead with far higher vertical integration) 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-09-19/ubs-on-its-teardown-of-byd-seal-video

 

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

LOL. If you need one then you're lost anyway.

Have you ever owned a Chinese product?

You're a hoot ... do you actually read the forum at all, before posting ? 

[RocketDog]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Lots of Chinese products.

 

Installed over a dozen TCL air conditioners

2 TCL washer/dryers

My daughter had a Chinese MGEP+ EV

We replaced it with a Chinese MG4 EV

I have a BYD Seal

Lots of Chinese mini PC's

2 of TCL TV's

 

None of these has ever had a problem.

 

You can read about UBS's teardown of a BYD Seal here (spoiler, the quality is equivalent to a premium German car but at least a generation ahead with far higher vertical integration) 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-09-19/ubs-on-its-teardown-of-byd-seal-video

 

 

You're very lucky.

Ever owned a Chinese product that was pure junk?

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Like every other product in the world, all batteries, even LiFeP, can be made well or made cheaply, but not both. All manufacturers are not created equally. China has earned a reputation for cheap goods.

 

Right before I sold my car I had to replace the 12v battery in the USA. I bought a new one with a 2 month warranty very cheaply.

 

Good luck.

 

If you watch the UBS video I posted, you'll find the conclusion is that it's both high quality AND cheaper than the West can make.  The video explains why.

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, RocketDog said:

You're very lucky.

Ever owned a Chinese product that was pure junk?

 

I think China was exactly like you describe 10 years ago.  They have learned a lot in that time.

[RocketDog]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think China was exactly like you describe 10 years ago.  They have learned a lot in that time.

OK.

That means 'no', correct?

[RocketDog]

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

... explains quite a bit, nuff said 

Indeed. Made in China.

Very perceptive of you.

nuff said.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

OK.

That means 'no', correct?

 

The only Chinese items I've had of questionable quality were some LED lamps 11 years ago.

[RocketDog]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Lots of Chinese products.

 

Installed over a dozen TCL air conditioners

2 TCL washer/dryers

My daughter had a Chinese MGEP+ EV

We replaced it with a Chinese MG4 EV

I have a BYD Seal

Lots of Chinese mini PC's

2 of TCL TV's

 

None of these has ever had a problem.

 

You can read about UBS's teardown of a BYD Seal here (spoiler, the quality is equivalent to a premium German car but at least a generation ahead with far higher vertical integration) 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-09-19/ubs-on-its-teardown-of-byd-seal-video

 

 

There is less vertical integration since globalization took us all down this road of interdependence.

Pieces of a final product can be made cheaper but just as well or better in different places

based on local materials, access to global transpiry, local labor,etc.

 

However,  that structure can be replaced if a single country is willing to subsidize a host of suppliers to do so. China takes that approach and hence had a debt to GDP over 300%. Obviously that can't go on forever.

 

But to subsidize also means that such suppliers are continually pressed to produce piece parts at lower cost so the entire item can be manufactured in china (job) or lose their subsidy. Since labor costs or more or less fixed (except for slave labor of course), and material costs generally fixed by international buyers, the easiest way to lower costs is to use cheaper materials and construction..

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, RocketDog said:

There is less vertical integration since globalization took us all down this road of interdependence.

Pieces of a final product can be made cheaper but just as well or better in different places

based on local materials, access to global transpiry, local labor,etc.

 

However,  that structure can be replaced if a single country is willing to subsidize a host of suppliers to do so. China takes that approach and hence had a debt to GDP over 300%. Obviously that can't go on forever.

 

But to subsidize also means that such suppliers are continually pressed to produce piece parts at lower cost so the entire item can be manufactured in china (job) or lose their subsidy. Since labor costs or more or less fixed (except for slave labor of course), and material costs generally fixed by international buyers, the easiest way to lower costs is to use cheaper materials and construction..

 

I don't agree that making pieces of a product in different places in anywhere near as good or cost effective.

 

I'm reminded of my Mitsubishi & Daikin air conditioning units where the casing and vanes go yellow at different rates.

 

There is none of that so far with my TCL air conditioning units.

 

BYD make somewhere around 75% of the total content of their cars in-house, contrast that with Japanese & German car manufacturers who are typically around 25%.  BYD make their own semiconductors, plastics, seats etc.  You don't get the integration issues we have so often seen, eg industry wide air bag recalls because in effect the car manufacturer was let down by an OEM.  On a German car I had, it was trailered to Bangkok twice because of a worldwide issue with air conditioning pressure sensors failing on all their models.

 

BYD cars have a huge degree of innovation and integration which accounts for cost savings around 30% compared to what the West can achieve.  For example, their 12 in 1 drive unit.  Included among the 12 are items such as the electric motor, silicon carbide electronic controls, high-efficiency reducers, DC converter, battery manager, and intelligent boost modules. Claiming a world first by itself according to BYD is the motor which is the world highest speed mass-produced electric drive motor for a car reaching 23,000 rpm.  Another claimed first is the laminated laser welded silicon carbide power module.  

 

[Rimmer]

1 hour ago, suzannegoh said:

27 to 30 km per liter is remarkably good.  Is that was Toyota advertises or what you have measured?

 

Quoted by Toyota dealer and then measured over four months since when we got the car. average spend over four month on petrol 600Baht a month the CRV was over baht 2000 a month

 

I just looked it up as well:

The fuel efficiency of a 1.5L Toyota Yaris Hybrid depends on driving conditions, but you can expect the following:

 City driving: 25-30 km/L (due to more electric motor use)

 Highway driving: 20-25 km/L (less electric assist, more engine use)

 Combined: 22-28 km/L

[RocketDog]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The only Chinese items I've had of questionable quality were some LED lamps 11 years ago.

I guess I'm the only one then.

Good for you. You must have good karma, OR all Chinese imports are high quality,  inexpensive, and endlessly durable. Sound right?

 

It sure seems like I heard somebody, somewhere, sometime that was not so lucky but I could be mistaken.

I do note however that choice of non-chinese sourced goods is difficult in Thailand. It's not as if most of us have any choice.

 

BTW where do you buy your LED lights now? The ones I've bought from China are still crap. I assume the ones you buy meet or exceed the estimated life cycle printed on the carton. Again, the ones I buy never do come close or get very dim very early. Sane fir batteries.

 

It's amazing that western brand goods are even purchased here by naive and ignorant consumers like myself. How can such stores even cover the shipping cost of such goods? Obviously they sell them at a loss to please their customers who erroneously believe they are purchasing quality.

 

Despite such unexpected revelations such as yours, it seems likely that I will continue down the path of my foolish ways. Good thing I can afford it!

 

I like power tools and use several. Why should I pay $200 for  Dewalt drill when a Chinese one and replacement batteries for it are so much cheaper, like 50$ ? I just don't have an answer.

[Rimmer]

A couple of off topic posts have been removed

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Yep. Hyper-capitalization at work. It's the chinese answer to everything. Any country can trash another's producers if they subsidize their own products deeply enough.

 

Making more of something doesn't mean it's better.

 

40 -60% of the price of an EV is battery. Batteries, especially made in China, wear out.

 

Time will tell.

 

EV batteries do fail within the warranty period regardless of which country manufacturers the battery

Nissan leaf 40kwh battery produced in UK, Japan and Smyrna, Tennessee USA

in recent years Nissan USA have launched a buyback scheme to buyback Nissan leaf's that have degraded as Nissan is having supply chain issues and battery replacement is taking between 9+ months for certain models

Nissan failed to repair a brand-new Leaf with a failed 40-kilowatt-hour battery.

The car sat at the dealer for months.

Eventually, Nissan bought back the car from the owner and offered another, brand-new Leaf.

https://insideevs.com/news/740026/nissan-leaf-bricked-buyback/

[RocketDog]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I don't agree that making pieces of a product in different places in anywhere near as good or cost effective.

 

I'm reminded of my Mitsubishi & Daikin air conditioning units where the casing and vanes go yellow at different rates.

 

There is none of that so far with my TCL air conditioning units.

 

BYD make somewhere around 75% of the total content of their cars in-house, contrast that with Japanese & German car manufacturers who are typically around 25%.  BYD make their own semiconductors, plastics, seats etc.  You don't get the integration issues we have so often seen, eg industry wide air bag recalls because in effect the car manufacturer was let down by an OEM.  On a German car I had, it was trailered to Bangkok twice because of a worldwide issue with air conditioning pressure sensors failing on all their models.

 

BYD cars have a huge degree of innovation and integration which accounts for cost savings around 30% compared to what the West can achieve.  For example, their 12 in 1 drive unit.  Included among the 12 are items such as the electric motor, silicon carbide electronic controls, high-efficiency reducers, DC converter, battery manager, and intelligent boost modules. Claiming a world first by itself according to BYD is the motor which is the world highest speed mass-produced electric drive motor for a car reaching 23,000 rpm.  Another claimed first is the laminated laser welded silicon carbide power module.  

 

Buzz words. China is also good at that. You got all this ftom their wrb site I presume? Not like China has a congenital habit of spreading false information either.

 

I bet they all their products have genuine CE UL CSAetc certification marks on them too like most Chinese products.

No chance at all that the manufacturers of such items don't spend the large money to get these items tested and pay for ongoing certifications of their locations and products.

 

I spent the last several years of my career as an electronic design engineer working with American manufacturers to obtain such certs. Never had an Indian or Chinese customer though.

 

I recently saw a phone charger,  you know, the ones that catch on fire or kill people sleeping with their ear bud while charging.

The label on the charger along with all the intl certification marks added "Made by Apple in California" just in case it wasn't clear enough to buyers.

 

Look, not 100% of what's made in China is junk but if it's not then you'll pay a price for it competitive with western products. Machine tools are a good example.

The truth is most consumer stuff is inferior for a reason. It's called price point.  They have to export or die.

 

So have you ever noticed any rust on the "stainless steel" products you buy from China? Sure you have. Ever wonder why?

 

Well we've beat this to death and no attitudes have changed.

 

Beam me up Scotty but please not in the chinese transporter. I hate flies.

[RocketDog]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

EV batteries do fail within the warranty period regardless of which country manufacturers the battery

Nissan leaf 40kwh battery produced in UK, Japan and Smyrna, Tennessee USA

in recent years Nissan USA have launched a buyback scheme to buyback Nissan leaf's that have degraded as Nissan is having supply chain issues and battery replacement is taking between 9+ months for certain models

Nissan failed to repair a brand-new Leaf with a failed 40-kilowatt-hour battery.

The car sat at the dealer for months.

Eventually, Nissan bought back the car from the owner and offered another, brand-new Leaf.

https://insideevs.com/news/740026/nissan-leaf-bricked-buyback/

OK. You make a good case for buying an EV.

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I guess I'm the only one then.

Good for you. You must have good karma, OR all Chinese imports are high quality,  inexpensive, and endlessly durable. Sound right?

 

It sure seems like I heard somebody, somewhere, sometime that was not so lucky but I could be mistaken.

I do note however that choice of non-chinese sourced goods is difficult in Thailand. It's not as if most of us have any choice.

 

BTW where do you buy your LED lights now? The ones I've bought from China are still crap. I assume the ones you buy meet or exceed the estimated life cycle printed on the carton. Again, the ones I buy never do come close or get very dim very early. Sane fir batteries.

 

It's amazing that western brand goods are even purchased here by naive and ignorant consumers like myself. How can such stores even cover the shipping cost of such goods? Obviously they sell them at a loss to please their customers who erroneously believe they are purchasing quality.

 

Despite such unexpected revelations such as yours, it seems likely that I will continue down the path of my foolish ways. Good thing I can afford it!

 

I like power tools and use several. Why should I pay $200 for  Dewalt drill when a Chinese one and replacement batteries for it are so much cheaper, like 50$ ? I just don't have an answer.

I bought 2 dozen Lamptan LED bulbs on Lazada, all failed so I bought Philips on Lazada.  No failures yet.

 

i still buy downlighting on AliExpress, I think I got lucky, 1 failed in nearly 200 fitted 3.5 years ago. I agree that the quality of these items where no warranty is expected can be variable.

 

There are some products from China that I wouldn’t buy, power tools as you suggested are one.

 

Incidentally, I am also an Electronic Engineer by training, got the degree, never used it, far too nerdy.

[Bandersnatch]

8 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

EVs, and oil driven cars,  will soon be superseded by vehicles using other fuels including ethanol, hydrogen

 

H2 is a monumentally dumb idea for a fuel for passenger vehicles. 

Not economic. When I make power from my solar system to put in my electric car there is some small efficiency loss due to the inversion process, but over 90% of the energy ends up in my car. 
 
With current electrolyzers, green hydrogen's efficiency is around 30%, which means 70% of the renewable energy put into producing green hydrogen is lost across the full cycle of production and use.
 

But you probably weren't thinking of green H2. The most common type of H2 is Grey hydrogen. It's made from natural gas or coal using steam methane reforming or coal gasification so it's basically a fossil fuel and way less efficient than gasoline. 

 

Really the only place in the world where you find H2 cars in any numbers is California and if you want to know how it's going there you should watch the video below

 

         

 

[Thingamabob]

13 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

H2 is a monumentally dumb idea for a fuel for passenger vehicles. 

Not economic. When I make power from my solar system to put in my electric car there is some small efficiency loss due to the inversion process, but over 90% of the energy ends up in my car. 
 
With current electrolyzers, green hydrogen's efficiency is around 30%, which means 70% of the renewable energy put into producing green hydrogen is lost across the full cycle of production and use.
 

But you probably weren't thinking of green H2. The most common type of H2 is Grey hydrogen. It's made from natural gas or coal using steam methane reforming or coal gasification so it's basically a fossil fuel and way less efficient than gasoline. 

 

Really the only place in the world where you find H2 cars in any numbers is California and if you want to know how it's going there you should watch the video below

 

         

 

Research is being carried out on a number of alternatives to oil, electricity and hydrogen. In latter case I agree it has many drawbacks.

[Bandersnatch]

17 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Research is being carried out on a number of alternatives to oil, electricity and hydrogen. In latter case I agree it has many drawbacks.

 

You need to cross H2 off your list for passenger vehicles. Fossil fuel companies were pushing it to try and stall the EV revolution but they were losing so much money on it that they are pulling out.

 

"Shell scrapped its plans to build 48 hydrogen refueling stations for light duty vehicles in California. The company was in line for over $40 million in state incentives to install those fueling stations, but even that was not enough to move the project forward"

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/

 

I have gone all electric: 2 EVs; electric motorbike; I have an induction cook top; I use the same batteries for power tools, vacuums, and garden equipment and yet I don't have a PEA meter so no bills for electricity (I don't use gas) and no fuel cost for my vehicles if the journey is less than 600km. I installed solar 8 years ago and it took 5 years to payback. 

[Thingamabob]

5 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

You need to cross H2 off your list for passenger vehicles. Fossil fuel companies were pushing it to try and stall the EV revolution but they were losing so much money on it that they are pulling out.

 

"Shell scrapped its plans to build 48 hydrogen refueling stations for light duty vehicles in California. The company was in line for over $40 million in state incentives to install those fueling stations, but even that was not enough to move the project forward"

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/10/shell-shuts-down-its-us-hydrogen-filling-stations/

 

I have gone all electric: 2 EVs; electric motorbike; I have an induction cook top; I use the same batteries for power tools, vacuums, and garden equipment and yet I don't have a PEA meter so no bills for electricity (I don't use gas) and no fuel cost for my vehicles if the journey is less than 600km. I installed solar 8 years ago and it took 5 years to payback. 

As I said, hydrogen has many drawbacks.

[JBChiangRai]

All new energy vehicles have drawbacks, but right now battery electric is the best alternative and that is what is selling.

 

With what we are seeing in terms of battery development, I can't see any possible better solution, it's not perfect, but it will be as near as dammit in under a decade.

 

There will be a place for Hydrogen, but even the Hydrogen producers (plug hydrogen, shell) say it won't be for passenger cars for fairly obvious efficiency drawbacks.