Nightmare at the Prachuap tax office

[anchadian]

25 minutes ago, Digitalbanana said:

What new laws are you referring to? Do you have a link?

There is no new law, it's a RD Tweak

[OneManShow]

On 2/11/2025 at 12:46 PM, thesetat said:

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

You need to go to different office. Tax offices have different idea about tax. Some very nice and helpful even though they have not much information regarding farang tax and some just don't care. 
In my case, I was told that I'm not required to pay tax for US SS. And the extra that I transferred to Thailand was less than 120,000. 

[OneManShow]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:10 PM, thesetat said:

Even if you know your income is less than a certain amount.

https://itap1.for.irs.gov/owda/0/investigate/WhoMustFile_ITA/en-US/ScreenOrder~Main~qs%247a03ad32-ff39-4de9-98b9-5ab40555cd12%24global%24global
 

if you answer all questions you can easily find it if you are not required to file a tax return. (IRS website)

move been doing this for 10 years.

[zyphodb]

On 2/11/2025 at 2:00 PM, Sheryl said:

They all are. Countless reports from all over the country  and advice given differs greatly office by office but all that I have seen have been incorrect in one way or another. 

 

DTAs aside, remember that RDs only deal with assessable income.  Normally a person with no assessable income would never go there and, if RD  comprehend your income is non-assessable they are not going to understand what you want/why you came in. 

 

Also remember that no need to file in person at RD. Online fillng is actively encouraged. 

 

Excuse me Sheryl, have you a link to the online filing site?

[Mutt Daeng]

7 hours ago, mudcat said:

Asked and already answered (as I found when reviewed my packet for TRD)

 

Thai language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_t.pdf

 

English language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf

Thanks @mudcat for this very useful post. It has helped me locate the Thai - UK DTA in Thai language, which may come in handy at some stage.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Arkie said:

I stopped by the office in Hua Hin, took no information, no passport.   I gave her income figures from 2024 with 50%  being from Social Security.  She informed me it made no difference where the income came from it would be taxed.  She would not listen to my rebuttal

 

 

Crazy... insane on the TRD staff's part there.

 

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, zyphodb said:

 

Excuse me Sheryl, have you a link to the online filing site?

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

It is in Thai so open in Chrome

 

You may also find the attached useful, they are English translations of form P90 and its instructions . Not current year but  I doubt much if any change

 

P90 is what is used unless income is solely from employment in which case P91 used.

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

26 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-cms/

 

It is in Thai so open in Chrome

 

You may also find the attached useful, they are English translations of form P90 and its instructions . Not current year but  I doubt much if any change

 

P90 is what is used unless income is solely from employment in which case P91 used.

 

I'm trying to do the online filing but after clicking on the button for P90/91, I get a page where I have to specify what kind of income I'm entering. None of the categories I can choose, seem applicable for entering pension income remitted from abroad.

 

There is one category that looks like it might be the one to use (Assessable income ...) but it has no option to click on, like the others do. 

 

Any advice on how to proceed? 

 

[Sheryl]

15 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

 

I'm trying to do the online filing but after clicking on the button for P90/91, I get a page where I have to specify what kind of income I'm entering. None of the categories I can choose, seem applicable for entering pension income remitted from abroad.

 

There is one category that looks like it might be the one to use (Assessable income ...) but it has no option to click on, like the others do. 

 

Any advice on how to proceed? 

 

Assuming your remitted pension income is assessable (which depends on the terms of the relevant DTA), then remitted foreign pension income and pension received in Thailand are treated the same, and both come under Section 40 (1) of the tax code, which is also where employment income is:

 

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

• (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/revenue-code/income-tax-law-in-the-revenue-code#ii

 

Was there an initial choice for employment income? If so I assume that is what you would select, as it is going to go onto Line 1 of Section A . Which is  titled "Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If your pension is not assessable, you should  not include it in your filing (and not file if no other assessable income)

[GroveHillWanderer]

38 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Assuming your remitted pension income is assessable (which depends on the terms of the relevant DTA), then remitted foreign pension income and pension received in Thailand are treated the same, and both come under Section 40 (1) of the tax code, which is also where employment income is:

 

"Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

• (1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment. "

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/revenue-code/income-tax-law-in-the-revenue-code#ii

 

Was there an initial choice for employment income? If so I assume that is what you would select, as it is going to go onto Line 1 of Section A . Which is  titled "Salaries, wages, pensions etc".

 

If your pension is not assessable, you should  not include it in your filing (and not file if no other assessable income)

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

[khunPer]

To OP @thesetat: Always ask for "talk to someone important", a big boss that can speak English.

There is another AN-thread here about one, who did that (opening post)...

 

[it is what it is]

On 2/11/2025 at 5:56 AM, thesetat said:

I have been here for 13 years. My wife runs one of the Government ministry offices locally so i try my best to keep legal in all aspects. Since my income is solely from social security then it is not taxable in Thailand so I did not see a problem filing to keep legal problems from arising that may include my wife. 

But this office has no clue. 

 

My wife runs one of the Government ministry offices locally so i try my best to keep legal in all aspects

 

don't understand the logic, how would not declaring something you don;t have to declare be illegal?

 

couldn't your wife have given you better advice?

[Straight8]

On 2/11/2025 at 1:26 PM, thesetat said:

Probably the best advice yet. 

However if anyone in Hua hin can tell me. Is the tax office there any smarter and english speaking? 

Maybe too late, you could already be flagged.

[Phil1964]

So my slightly separate but related question to all this taxable imported foreign income that farangs now need to declare to the Thai authorities is;

 

To avoid filing tax returns, risk getting screwed by the Thai tax authorities demanding tax payments on income bought into Thailand for living expenses, (despite having already been taxed at source in the UK etc), the safest way to avoid any of this hassle and risk is, (barring not going to Thailand), to simply only spend 180 days in any 365 days in the country between 1st Jan and 31st Dec each year? 

Or after 3 years will the authorities be looking at your arrival/departure records and going, "Hey this fella is as good a resident let's tax him, (and others who may be doing so)?

 

(NB: I still live in UK but am nearing / loosely thinking and planning my retirement for within next 3 - 5 years).

 

Finally, since my last visit in August 2023 with my now ex-psycho Thai b****, what is the cost of living like there 2 years on? Turned for the worse and as bad as here in "rip off Britain"?

 

Thanks in advance and enjoy the sunshine, it's a miserable February here in 2025, just the one day of sunshine in nearly 2 weeks! Grrrr!

 

 

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

 

Assuming that you are not married and that the UK State Pension is your sole source of assessable income, you may need to file a tax return if your SP payments exceed the equivalent of 20,000 THB per annum (around £475 on the basis of current exchange rates).

[OJAS]

49 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

Assuming that you are not married and that the UK State Pension is your sole source of assessable income, you may need to file a tax return if your SP payments exceed the equivalent of 20,000 THB per annum (around £475 on the basis of current exchange rates).

 @GroveHillWanderer - correction with apologies: the actual amount above which a tax return might be required in your case is, in fact, 120,000 THB (which currently converts to around £2,850). See page 23 of 122 in the following link:

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

28 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 @GroveHillWanderer - correction with apologies: the actual amount above which a tax return might be required in your case is, in fact, 120,000 THB (which currently converts to around £2,850). See page 23 of 122 in the following link:

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

 

That PWC booklet said its 2023/24 info was based on Thai tax rules/laws as of July 2023, although it includes some reference to the first TRD change dated Sept. 2023.

 

However in quickly perusing the front section on personal income tax:

 

--It doesn't seem to say much if anything about the impact of double taxation treaties that may exist between Thailand and various expats' home countries -- which can serve to limit or exclude Thai taxation in various categories, and

 

--It doesn't seem to make any mention at all of the subsequent clarification by the TRD (P162) that said all foreign income earned pre-2024 would be considered SAVINGS and thus not subject to Thai taxation, even if remitted into Thailand in later years.

 

There seems clear agreement that the pre-2024 savings exception does cover any funds held in bank accounts as cash at the end of 2023. There's some disagreement, though, about whether the same tax exception also does or does not cover cash and stock holdings held in brokerage accounts up thru that time.

 

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, the initial choice is for employment income. It hadn't occurred to me that it would include pension income. 

 

However my UK pension is less than the full amount due to lack of NI contributions when I was first living abroad and was still young and foolish (I moved overseas aged 18). I didn't realise I could make voluntary contributions until I was older so with the allowable deductions, including being over 65 I don't have any assessable income, by my calculations.

 

So I guess no need to file?

You don't owe tax. You do have assesssble income. Different situation. 

 

Anyone with assedsable invome of 60k or more (prior to any deductions, exemptions or alliwances) is required to file. 

 

However since no tax being avoided, the most you risk is a 2000 baht fine (which is seldom enforced). 

 

Personally in your shoes  I would go ahead and file. Costs nothing,  abides by the letter of the law, qnd you have a clear record to show if ever asked. But up to you. 

[oldcpu]

15 hours ago, mudcat said:

Asked and already answered (as I found when reviewed my packet for TRD)

 

Thai language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_t.pdf

 

English language for Thai-U.S. tax convention:

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_e.pdf

 

Thanks.  Using that link and a bit of guessing, for those looking for Thai language versions of the Thai-German, and Thai-Canada DTAs:

 

Canada-Thai DTA in Thai language
https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/canada_t.pdf

 

German-Thai DTA in Thai language
https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/germany_t.pdf

 

This may come in handy if needing to point out some DTA aspects to a local RD taxation office (in Thai language).  Hopefully it never comes to that need.