Is the new 145% China tariff "actually" payback for COVID? Maybe yes?

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

 

Some think that COVID might have been the last straw.

 

And now, China's virus has finally come home to roost.

 

I believe this might be partly true.

And, some people might even be happy about this.

 

Or, has anyone forgotten China's pandemic, so quickly?

 

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

 

Regards,

Gamma

 

 

Yet another one who doesn't understand that this is a tax on USA customers.

[Rob Browder]

5 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Everybody always says:  I want no more garbage from China.

 

Now, people are getting just what they wished for.

 

Everyone should be happy....!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-8a4wD0Udg

If you are not familiar, do some digging into what happened when Sam Walton (greatest generation) died.  He had insisted on a "Made in America" section for appliances, etc - because that generation's propaganda included teaching this as "patriotic." 

 

Upon his death, his spoiled (boomer) kids ripped that out, given they were taught "globalization / free-trade" propaganda.  They FORCED suppliers to move operations to Chinese factories, or lose their access to Wal Mart shelf-space.  Given the size of their operation - a massive % of domestic retail - companies would be ruined if they did not agree. 

 

A proper trial and punishment is too good for such people - but I guess we would need to follow the Constitution, vs dusting-off the thumb-screws, rack, etc.  Next-up for trial - those who made billions off of the covid "lockdown" psychological-operation / terrorism.

 

One oft-missed lesson here, is that "propaganda" and "conditioning" is not always "bad." Most people don't "think things through" to an extent they can make "good" decisions with regard to national-policy. The dumbing-down of education has only made this worse - no "civics," and not even solid math, physics, chemistry, and biology required for a HS Diploma - or, even many "college degrees" (= why they could get-away with their scientifically-insane Covid policy). 

 

So, it boils-down to a question of who the rulers are, and their intentions.  Do they care about the well-being of your people and future - or just money, or some other group's interests? 

[Rob Browder]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

Yet another one who doesn't understand that this is a tax on USA customers.

Would you classify the tariffs we had until the 1980s/90s in the same way?  Our middle-class was a heck of a lot better off, in those times. 

 

Regardless, there are other questions at-hand:

1) National Security and self-reliance of the nation - especially for critical industries.

2) Reliable employment for the citizens of the nation, producing for their fellow citizens.

3) Related to #2 - keeping the wealth of the nation flowing WITHIN its borders - between citizens / local-businesses - vs being siphoned-away via mercantilism.
4) "Financialization" (playing tricks with money) replacing tangible production of goods and services as the driving-force of the nation's economy.

 

That said, the MANNER in which this policy is being implemented is insane - and I have my doubts it is well-motivated, to address the above concerns.  Especially regarding #2, "work visas" are being utilized to PREVENT benefit to Americans from new jobs - almost all net-jobs-created post-covid going to the foreign-born.

[spidermike007]

No. It is just an expression of cluelessness and utter stupidity. 

 

The effect of the tariffs will be felt across the U.S. economy. Wendong Zhang, an assistant professor of applied economics and policy at Cornell University, said 73 percent of smartphones, 78 percent of laptops, 87 percent of video game consoles and 77 percent of toys in the United States come from China.

 

But each line of thinking shares an obvious problem: How does one accomplish any of these goals with blanket tariffs that threaten to radically reduce trade with the United States? How do you revitalize American manufacturing if manufacturers can’t reasonably import the materials they need to build factories and produce goods? Where is capital supposed to come from? How do you reset the nation’s relationship with its trading partners if those partners are forced to treat you as a bad force that can’t be trusted? And how are you supposed to revitalize working-class communities if your trade policies will probably destroy as many blue-collar jobs as they might, theoretically, create?

 

There is a hypothetical president with a hypothetically similar agenda who could answer these questions. This actual president cannot. He did not reason himself into his preoccupation with tariffs and can neither reason nor speak coherently about them. There is no grand plan or strategic vision, no matter what his advisers claim — only the impulsive actions of a mad king, untethered from any responsibility to the nation or its people. For as much as the president’s apologists would like us to believe otherwise, Trump’s tariffs are not a policy as we traditionally understand it. What they are is an instantiation of his psyche: a concrete expression of his zero-sum worldview.

 

Of course, a trade deficit is not a loss any more than it is a loss when you, as a consumer, spend your hard-earned cash at a restaurant or a movie theater or a grocery store. When American businesses buy raw materials from foreign countries to make their own products — when they buy finished products and sell them on their shelves — they aren’t incurring a loss. They are exchanging currency for something of value, which they will go on to use or sell for a profit.

 

As a statement of economic policy, Trump’s pronouncement makes no sense. But as an expression of his zero-sum instinct, of his desire to dominate, it is perfectly coherent. You could even say that this need to dominate — this overwhelming drive to show mastery — is constitutive of Trump’s self. There must be a loser, or else there is no Trump.

 

Trump is a winner, and he’ll show it by making all of us the losers. 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

59 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Yet another one who doesn't understand that this is a tax on USA customers.

 

It is necessary to re-locate production, and out of China.

This is what some do not understand, but must be made to understand.

This is an untenable situation we are now in.

This cannot continue.

Very obvious to anyone with a brain, or half of one.

Even the Chinese, who are almost brainless, understand.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Rob Browder said:

Would you classify the tariffs we had until the 1980s/90s in the same way?  Our middle-class was a heck of a lot better off, in those times. 

 

Regardless, there are other questions at-hand:

1) National Security and self-reliance of the nation - especially for critical industries.

2) Reliable employment for the citizens of the nation, producing for their fellow citizens.

3) Related to #2 - keeping the wealth of the nation flowing WITHIN its borders - between citizens / local-businesses - vs being siphoned-away via mercantilism.
4) "Financialization" (playing tricks with money) replacing tangible production of goods and services as the driving-force of the nation's economy.

 

That said, the MANNER in which this policy is being implemented is insane - and I have my doubts it is well-motivated, to address the above concerns.  Especially regarding #2, "work visas" are being utilized to PREVENT benefit to Americans from new jobs - almost all net-jobs-created post-covid going to the foreign-born.

1) National Security and self-reliance of the nation - especially for critical industries.
How are you going to do that without enough access to rare earth minerals from China?
 

2) Reliable employment for the citizens of the nation, producing for their fellow citizens.
Your people are way more expensive than Chinese labor, are your country man willing to pay loads more for their products?
 

3) Related to #2 - keeping the wealth of the nation flowing WITHIN its borders - between citizens / local-businesses - vs being siphoned-away via mercantilism.
Any idea how long it will take for a business to relocate operations to a different country?

4) "Financialization" (playing tricks with money) replacing tangible production of goods and services as the driving-force of the nation's economy.
Loads of products you are unable to make in your country.

 

You as most MAGA people have no clue about economics and running a big business.

[rough diamond]

21 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

It is necessary to re-locate production, and out of China.

This is what some do not understand, but must be made to understand.

This is an untenable situation we are now in.

This cannot continue.

Very obvious to anyone with a brain, or half of one.

Even the Chinese, who are almost brainless, understand.

And of course American assembly line workers will accept $20/day NOT per hour to make those products in 2/3 years if and when the so called factories are built.

[Magictoad]

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Yes.

And now, where is the WHO?

Haven't heard from its lapdog leader in a while.

 

Also, the report is now out.

The origin is now out of the box.

And, those that thought it was an experimental virus have been shown to be correct.

This news was quashed from the start.

 

China is COMPLETELY OPAQUE.

 

And, XI must go, or we will repeat this experience in the near future.

 

XI believes he can do anything he wants on the world stage, just because that's the way he operates while he is on his throne, in Beijing.

But, the world will not tolerate any more of his outrageous actions.

 

 

One hopes you are correct but fears you are not. 30 million Chinese died in the 1950s plus millions more since especially minority group members such as Uyghurs, moslems  Christians and others

 

[short-Timer]

6 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

 

Some think that COVID might have been the last straw.

 

And now, China's virus has finally come home to roost.

 

I believe this might be partly true.

And, some people might even be happy about this.

 

Or, has anyone forgotten China's pandemic, so quickly?

 

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

 

Regards,

Gamma

 

 

You really don't understand or have a clue about the dynamics or the economics at play here. The trade war hurts the US far more than it hurts China. China can do without selling to the US because it only accounts for less than 15% of their total exports. Meanwhile, Americans can’t survive without cheap product imports from China. So it doesn’t matter if Trump imposes a 145% tariff or a 1145% tariff. In the end, it’s the American consumer who suffers. Trump will have to blink first. China can endure the pain far better than American politics or the American consumer can. Americans aren’t as used to this kind of trade hardship, but the Chinese are. Watch and see.

[still kicking]

2 hours ago, rough diamond said:

And of course American assembly line workers will accept $20/day NOT per hour to make those products in 2/3 years if and when the so called factories are built.

Video | Facebook

[hotsun]

25 minutes ago, short-Timer said:

You really don't understand or have a clue about the dynamics or the economics at play here. The trade war hurts the US far more than it hurts China. China can do without selling to the US because it only accounts for less than 15% of their total exports. Meanwhile, Americans can’t survive without cheap product imports from China. So it doesn’t matter if Trump imposes a 145% tariff or a 1145% tariff. In the end, it’s the American consumer who suffers. Trump will have to blink first. China can endure the pain far better than American politics or the American consumer can. Americans aren’t as used to this kind of trade hardship, but the Chinese are. Watch and see.

Another lefty economist. Just what the world needs

[short-Timer]

20 minutes ago, hotsun said:

Another lefty economist. Just what the world needs

Another clueless righty comment about economics, exactly what the world doesn't need. 

 

The following tweet was posted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China and has been viewed 13 million times already. It's a historical video of Mao saying that he will not yield to the US. That means they are prepared to fight. Trump was not expecting a fight and was expecting them to buckle. But they won't. That means Trump's plan to bully them isn't working and now he's stuffed. Trump has no Plan B except to blink and pause the tarrifs
 

 

[short-Timer]

[faraday]

7 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Even the Chinese, who are almost brainless, understand.

 

Is that you, Mr Vance?

[Gottfrid]

13 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

 

Some think that COVID might have been the last straw.

 

And now, China's virus has finally come home to roost.

 

I believe this might be partly true.

And, some people might even be happy about this.

 

Or, has anyone forgotten China's pandemic, so quickly?

 

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

 

Regards,

Gamma

 

 

Nah the 125% or 145%? Not keeping up with the numbers. That´s just something that will hurt USA more than China. China and it´s people does not nearly depend on US products as much as US depends on Chinese products. Just think about how many companies in the US that imports Chinese products and sell in shops, markets and online. All those will have to shut down, as the prices will sky rocket.

2023 China exported products for 501 billion dollar to the US, while US only had 148 billion dollar worth of export to China. There you see who is going to last longer. That´s has nothing to do with Covid, and if it has then Trump has gone the wrong way again.

[newbee2022]

13 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

 

Some think that COVID might have been the last straw.

 

And now, China's virus has finally come home to roost.

 

I believe this might be partly true.

And, some people might even be happy about this.

 

Or, has anyone forgotten China's pandemic, so quickly?

 

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

 

Regards,

Gamma

 

 

Word salad 😵‍💫

[Wuvu2]

 

Yes of course. Brilliant plan. Americans will pay $3k for an iPhone and 500 bucks for a pair of sneakers. What a stupendous punishment for the Chinese 🤪

[kingstonkid]

14 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

 

Some think that COVID might have been the last straw.

 

And now, China's virus has finally come home to roost.

 

I believe this might be partly true.

And, some people might even be happy about this.

 

Or, has anyone forgotten China's pandemic, so quickly?

 

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

 

Regards,

Gamma

 

 

I don't think it is so much about the virus as such BUT the fact that when Covid hit and people needed medical supplies and test kits the only country that had them was China and it was not sharing.

 

Add in the Fentanyl and the cheap prioce that it costs china to make the products they do with the tariffs and restrictions that they place on goods coming from outside China and that is also part of it.

[Ben Zioner]

The Tariffs are BS, out of a sick anus for sure.

 

This said, Chinese garbage will fulfil all my needs, BYD, Huawei, Xiaomi, and.. Apple.

 

AFAIAC EU should become ECU, or EAU. Trumpland can go sodomise itself.

[spidermike007]

Just how vulnerable is the US to China? I am certainly no fan of the CCP, but Trump has dug an incredibly deep hole and it's going to be fairly hard for him to dig himself out of this one. 

 

In 2000, the United States was the top trading partner for over 80 percent of countries. As of today, this figure has shrunk to 30 percent, while China has now become the top trading partner for more than 120 countries. China is South America’s top trading partner, and it is Africa’s largest trading partner in terms of total volume, dwarfing U.S.-Africa trade by a factor of four, according to the United States Institute of Peace.

 

Within this context, China has significantly invested in the Maritime Silk Road (MSR) to increase trade route options and bypass choke points, posing a significant challenge for U.S. trade. In 2013, Chinese president Xi Jinping unveiled the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), an ambitious political-economic infrastructure initiative to link East Asia and Europe through land, sea and air under China’s leadership and with the backing of its resources. The twenty-first-century MSR is responsible for the BRI maritime routes that connect China to Europe and the Arctic Ocean via the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean. President Xi has repeatedly emphasized that economic powers must be maritime and shipping powers. As China now positions itself as the world’s top exporter, top shipbuilder, and largest trading nation, with around 95 percent of its international trade carried out through sea-lanes, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) will soon dominate global maritime trade.

 

The Indo-Pacific is a major hub of global commerce and will continue to be the main target for China’s maritime control. The 10 busiest container ports in the world are located along the shores of the Pacific and Indian Oceans. The Indian Ocean hosts 80 percent of China’s imported oil and 95 percent of China’s trade with the Middle East, Africa, and Europe. China also has a strong presence in port construction in the developing world: it operates or has ownership of 91 active port projects across the globe where military use is a possibility, providing it with a foothold in every continent except Antarctica. These projects are part of the MSR network, which, according to the People’s Republic of China (PRC) State Council Information Office, has reached 117 ports across 43 countries, mostly in the Global South. China’s position of control and influence over the majority of port infrastructure globally poses a significant economic and military security threat to the United States. Simply put, China could use its power to interfere with operations that rely on port access—including military and economic operations—and are vital to U.S. interests.

 

China’s state-owned enterprises (SOEs) also dominate in financing, design, construction, and management of overseas port infrastructure. Between 2010 and 2019, Chinese companies invested roughly $11 billion into overseas ports. China’s two main SOEs involved in port infrastructure are COSCO Shipping Ports, the world’s largest shipping company and port terminal operator, operating and managing 371 berths globally, and China Merchants Ports, the sixth-largest port terminal operator globally. Additionally, the China Communications Construction Company Limited (CCCC) is the biggest port design and construction enterprise in the world. It shapes more than 70 percent of the national standards for the water transportation industry and designed 7 of the top 10 ports. State support to Chinese shipping companies in their endeavors totaled an estimated $132 billion between 2010 and 2018.

 

China is also exporting container cranes from Shanghai Zhenhua Heavy Industries Company Limited (ZPMC). ZPMC dominates the global market for container cranes with a staggering 70 percent market share. For example, ZPMC manufactures 80 percent of the cranes used in U.S. ports; this includes 10 strategic seaports. These cranes come equipped with sensors that can track container details, which raises concerns about Chinese access to information about shipped goods, including U.S. military equipment.

 

U.S. ports have a fair, mediocre, or poor rating: 35 percent are fair, 19 percent are mediocre, and 37 percent are poor. At the same time, U.S. ports have been increasingly vulnerable to climate. In 2022, Hurricane Ian forced temporary closures of seven major U.S. ports. Droughts in the Panama Canal disrupted vessels serving U.S. East Coast ports. Besides, many U.S. ports have infrastructure limitations that do not allow them to receive larger vessels, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

In terms of overseas ports, the United States severely lags China, as the United States does not manage or own any commercial ports outside its territories. The U.S. International Development Finance Corporation (DFC), however, is beginning to invest ports. A bit late in the game? 

 

Never before has the humble ocean shipping container been this important to American business. If you can’t get one, you can’t move your international cargo — and supply has never been tighter. The cost of global trade is now contingent on how many containers exist, where they are and where they aren’t.

 

How many containers exist is controlled by China. Virtually every ocean shipping container in the world is built there. 

 

Just three Chinese companies account for the majority of production, with Chinese factories now building more than 96% of the world’s dry cargo containers and 100% of the world’s refrigerated containers, according to U.K. consultancy Drewry.

 

Carl Bentzel of the Federal Maritime Commission (FMC) said earlier this month, “I am concerned that this equipment is controlled by a state-owned enterprise and that we’re completely reliant, and I have questions about whether or not there’s been market manipulation of what is potentially a monopoly.”

 

https://www.csis.org/analysis/responding-chinas-growing-influence-ports-global-south

 

 

 

 

[GammaGlobulin]

8 hours ago, short-Timer said:

You really don't understand or have a clue about the dynamics or the economics at play here. The trade war hurts the US far more than it hurts China. China can do without selling to the US because it only accounts for less than 15% of their total exports. Meanwhile, Americans can’t survive without cheap product imports from China. So it doesn’t matter if Trump imposes a 145% tariff or a 1145% tariff. In the end, it’s the American consumer who suffers. Trump will have to blink first. China can endure the pain far better than American politics or the American consumer can. Americans aren’t as used to this kind of trade hardship, but the Chinese are. Watch and see.

 

You have it the opposite way round.

The USA importers can easily change suppliers for necessary goods.

China exports have now stopped.

This will have a devastating effect on China, particularly at this time.

 

No matter what happens, most production must leave China within the next few years, or as soon as possible.

Some production might return to the USA, and much will remain in Asia.

.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, Gottfrid said:

Nah the 125% or 145%? Not keeping up with the numbers. That´s just something that will hurt USA more than China. China and it´s people does not nearly depend on US products as much as US depends on Chinese products. Just think about how many companies in the US that imports Chinese products and sell in shops, markets and online. All those will have to shut down, as the prices will sky rocket.

2023 China exported products for 501 billion dollar to the US, while US only had 148 billion dollar worth of export to China. There you see who is going to last longer. That´s has nothing to do with Covid, and if it has then Trump has gone the wrong way again.

 

The US does not need these products, or can substitute suppliers.

 

But, for sure, China needs the income derived from exporting to the USA.

 

[GammaGlobulin]

1 hour ago, Wuvu2 said:

 

Yes of course. Brilliant plan. Americans will pay $3k for an iPhone and 500 bucks for a pair of sneakers. What a stupendous punishment for the Chinese 🤪

 

Get your shoes from Vietnam.

 

Throw the iPhunes into the Boston harbor.

 

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Trump has not forgotten it, or us.

 

Go Trump Go???

Trump likes to play cards but doesn't seem to realise he is playing against all the aces.

Just look at the damage Japan did to the bond market and China holds a great deal more.

At the end of the day the US needs China a great deal more than China needs the US.

[GammaGlobulin]

58 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

I don't think it is so much about the virus as such BUT the fact that when Covid hit and people needed medical supplies and test kits the only country that had them was China and it was not sharing.

 

Add in the Fentanyl and the cheap prioce that it costs china to make the products they do with the tariffs and restrictions that they place on goods coming from outside China and that is also part of it.

 

Yes, true.

China lied to the world about the circumstances of COVID, which is still unforgivable.

 

And, there is too much cheap garbage being sent to the compulsive online shoppers in the US.

 

And, then Fentanyl, yes.

 

But, much more.

China is bent on ruling this entire area, and invading Taiwan.

Taiwan was never a part of China, anyway.

XI is delusional, and must be stopped.

 

 

[sandyf]

7 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

But, for sure, China needs the income derived from exporting to the USA.

A fallacy, any loss in trade to the US can be made up in Asia.

They are now talking to the EU, Trump's worst nightmare.

[ujayujay]

Donald Trump sends China the bill and pays himself

[Gottfrid]

9 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

The US does not need these products, or can substitute suppliers.

 

But, for sure, China needs the income derived from exporting to the USA.

 

Say that to the US citizens with ruined businesses. No, China is not dependent on US at all. The simple reason is that only a few out of the 1,42 billion citizens share the money. The rest is not aware of it. They just move on with their lives as it´s always been. You can compare it to US homeless people. They don´t care about changes like this. Neither does the 1,2 billion spread over the country.

[ujayujay]

3 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

 

Yes, true.

China lied to the world about the circumstances of COVID, which is still unforgivable.

 

And, there is too much cheap garbage being sent to the compulsive online shoppers in the US.

 

And, then Fentanyl, yes.

 

But, much more.

China is bent on ruling this entire area, and invading Taiwan.

Taiwan was never a part of China, anyway.

XI is delusional, and must be stopped.

 

 

History isn't your thing, am I right?

[GammaGlobulin]

12 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Trump likes to play cards but doesn't seem to realise he is playing against all the aces.

Just look at the damage Japan did to the bond market and China holds a great deal more.

At the end of the day the US needs China a great deal more than China needs the US.

 

No matter who needs whom, we will be at war soon, over Taiwan.

So, we must adjust now, and the sooner the better.