I take Creatine for the mental spark & glucose control, since I don't work out. If it helps with atrophy, then another plus. Also monitor my kidney function, as my GP is a nephrologist.

3 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

That matters for bodybuilders and it's 1 or 2% but lots of them use machines more. Ordinary people need exercises they enjoy that are kind to shoulders. A machine press is better for shoulders that aren't 100%. You can use a neutral grip on a machine and even swap grips every set. On a chest supported row machine you have 3 different grip choices which is great to target different areas. Supersetting a chest supported row machine with chest machine is a great superset.

All bodybuilders use dumbbells as they give better results . The reason a two arm bench with barbell is good is because you can use more weight, but concentration with dumbbells on any exercise works the muscles stricter, and you can use them at any age unless you have an injury to the deltoids. The worse thing you can do is pulldowns behind the neck if your shoulders aren't healthy.

I make sure to have sex twice a day everyday.

Sometimes with the wife.

15 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Dumbbells of the same weight as a barbell will give better results. This is why you can't lift the same amount with dumbbells than you can with a barbell. Balancing them makes your muscles work harder. The same with using a machine or barbell. A machine bench starts at a certain place, but a barbell you have to lift off the rack, bring to your chest (best results), then back up. You could take one hand off the machine and it won't fall, but balancing that barbell makes your muscles work harder, which is why free weights are the best for gains and symmetry.

I love free weights, but more balancing does not automatically mean better gains. It usually means less load, more coordination demand, and simply a different training stimulus. Free weights are great, but machines can build just as much muscle when used properly.

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I take Creatine for the mental spark & glucose control, since I don't work out. If it helps with atrophy, then another plus. Also monitor my kidney function, as my GP is a nephrologist.

My blood has loads of creatinine but not a concern for athletes. Athletes that train hard will produce tons of creatinine. The newer and more expensive cystatin C test is the only test that is of any use for me. Age, muscle mass, and high intensity exercise has no impact on the results. My EGFR is 58 using creatine and 111 using cystatin c. Young man Kidneys but my memory is not so good.

5 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Many things that aren't fun are good for you. I meditate because it improves my mental health and it isn't fun at all. Sometimes it can be relaxing and time goes by quickly but mostly it is something I force myself to do.

I think you have a greater ability to understand than the others, so I'll tell you how I used to train and train others in the gym.

I would note that in a gym, there was often a kind of competition with the amount of weights they would use. Kind of like an ego thing.

Some would be doing presses with their veins popping out of their heads and their blood pressure through the roof. Walking out with all kinds of damage and their heads spinning.

I would ask them to do it this way, take off most of the weights, take the weight off the stand and just hold it there. Don't lock your elbows, just relax and hold it. Nothing else, just breathe. Mainly would fail to do so for any amount of time. But that wasn't the end of the exercise. When the weight naturally reaches your chest after time, that is the time to begin your presses.

That was the difference in my training. Not just heavy weights and repetition, but using time. That is why I was able to do 120 pull ups without letting go of the bar. I trained my self to not let go of the bar over time, sometimes allowing people to hang on to my body. Minimal tension, just calm. So I had more time to complete the exercise without having to let go. Similarly with every exercise. I might hold the squat position for twenty minutes before even beginning the repetitions. Mind over matter.

These guys are just doing the same things over and over again. Running around in tiny circles.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I love free weights, but more balancing does not automatically mean better gains. It usually means less load, more coordination demand, and simply a different training stimulus. Free weights are great, but machines can build just as much muscle when used properly.

A combination of all types is best, but free weights do make the best muscle gains per the balancing and stabilizing part. I've been around pro bodybuilders and power lifters most of my life and they mostly used free weights, like I did, along with pulldowns and cable rows for the back. It's really about personal intensity anyway, as one can use machines and make gains if they're training intensely. There are more free weight exercises than machines that work the muscles harder and at different angles.

I'm posting a picture of Frank Zane, Mr. Olympia three times, then and now. I met him while working at GNC in New Jersey. he was promoting a product. , Talked awhile and he told me I should compete, and soon. I told him it wasn't really a thing for me as I just liked to lift heavy weights. He said lower the weights and compete and we both laughed. I looked a lot like him for decades but we all lose it as you can see here with him ...........https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZgdushZ95YE/hq720.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEhCK4FEIIDSFryq4qpAxMIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJD&rs=AOn4CLAQv1-YD5XRqmsCyVDcAiDY230N1g.

4 minutes ago, IsmeUno said:

I think you have a greater ability to understand than the others, so I'll tell you how I used to train and train others in the gym.

I would note that in a gym, there was often a kind of competition with the amount of weights they would use. Kind of like an ego thing.

Some would be doing presses with their veins popping out of the heads and their blood pressure through the roof.

I would ask them to do it this way, take off most of the weights, take the weight of the stand and just hold it there. Don't lock your elbows, just relax and hold it. Nothing else, just breathe. Mainly would fail to do so for any amount of time. But that wasn't the end of the exercise. When the weight naturally reaches your chest after time, that is the time to begin your presses.

That was the difference in my training. Not just heavy weights and repetition, but using time. That is why I was able to do 120 pull ups without letting go of the bar. I trained my self to not let go of the bar over time, sometimes allowing people to hang on to my body. Minimal tension, just calm. So I had more time to complete the exercise without having to let go. Similarly with every exercise. I might hold the squat position for twenty minutes before even beginning the repetitions. Mind over matter.

These guys are just doing the same things over and over again. Running around in tiny circles.

Your approach is a solid approach it seems. I myself have never done something similar so I'll take your word for it, that it works.

I think those that consistently make it to the gym and lift wrong are in a much better place than 95% of the population if they also have a good diet. You have to start the journey and stick with it and with any luck improve on your implementation. I lifted ~25 minutes twice a week for 30 years. I never got stronger after 25 but I never lost strength which was my goal. I'm lucky to be naturally strong and like to be lean (not big) which makes the weight lifting a simple process.

10 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A combination of all types is best, but free weights do make the best muscle gains per the balancing and stabilizing part. I've been around pro bodybuilders and power lifters most of my life and they mostly used free weights, like I did, along with pulldowns and cable rows for the back. It's really about personal intensity anyway, as one can use machines and make gains if they're training intensely. There are more free weight exercises than machines that work the muscles harder and at different angles.

Dumbell press at 30 degrees is probably the best overall chest exercise but variety is good. Bodybuilders love cable crossovers for chest too. Pre exhaust the chest then do presses. You can also do cable presses at 30 degrees. I tried it in Prachuap but it wasnt quite as good as dumbells due to cable hitting my arms. I enjoy the pec deck more then do reverse for rear delts.

13 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

A combination of all types is best, but free weights do make the best muscle gains per the balancing and stabilizing part. I've been around pro bodybuilders and power lifters most of my life and they mostly used free weights, like I did, along with pulldowns and cable rows for the back. It's really about personal intensity anyway, as one can use machines and make gains if they're training intensely. There are more free weight exercises than machines that work the muscles harder and at different angles.

Free weights are absolutely a solid contributor, and I like them myself, but you sound more certain than the evidence supports. More balancing and stabilizing does not automatically mean better muscle gains. It often just means less load, more coordination demand, and a different training stimulus. Current reviews suggest that free weights and machines can produce similar muscle growth when used properly, while strength gains are often specific to the tool being trained with. So yes, free weights are excellent, but saying they are clearly best for muscle gains is too certain. A combination is probably the smarter view.

At our age, it is often more about maintaining and preserving than endlessly building, especially after many years of lifting. But there can still be gains, particularly if you stopped training for a while and are rebuilding muscle you once had. Muscle memory is real, and if you train consistently with enough effort, whether with free weights or machines, the body will respond as well as your recovery, diet, sleep, and overall condition allow.

19 minutes ago, IsmeUno said:

I think you have a greater ability to understand than the others, so I'll tell you how I used to train and train others in the gym.

I would note that in a gym, there was often a kind of competition with the amount of weights they would use. Kind of like an ego thing.

Some would be doing presses with their veins popping out of their heads and their blood pressure through the roof. Walking out with all kinds of damage and their heads spinning.

I would ask them to do it this way, take off most of the weights, take the weight off the stand and just hold it there. Don't lock your elbows, just relax and hold it. Nothing else, just breathe. Mainly would fail to do so for any amount of time. But that wasn't the end of the exercise. When the weight naturally reaches your chest after time, that is the time to begin your presses.

That was the difference in my training. Not just heavy weights and repetition, but using time. That is why I was able to do 120 pull ups without letting go of the bar. I trained my self to not let go of the bar over time, sometimes allowing people to hang on to my body. Minimal tension, just calm. So I had more time to complete the exercise without having to let go. Similarly with every exercise. I might hold the squat position for twenty minutes before even beginning the repetitions. Mind over matter.

These guys are just doing the same things over and over again. Running around in tiny circles.

Nice made up stories 555

5 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Your approach is a solid approach it seems. I myself have never done something similar so I'll take your word for it, that it works.

I think those that consistently make it to the gym and lift wrong are in a much better place than 95% of the population if they also have a good diet. You have to start the journey and stick with it and with any luck improve on your implementation. I lifted ~25 minutes twice a week for 30 years. I never got stronger after 25 but I never lost strength which was my goal. I'm lucky to be naturally strong and like to be lean (not big) which makes the weight lifting a simple process.

There's a difference between good health and vanity. Mental health. When you focus too much on one thing you can easily neglect something fundamental.

What do these gym bunnies all have in common? The all have a problem with their brains. Their thinking. I'll leave it at that.

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Free weights are absolutely a solid contributor, and I like them myself, but you sound more certain than the evidence supports. More balancing and stabilizing does not automatically mean better muscle gains. It often just means less load, more coordination demand, and a different training stimulus. Current reviews suggest that free weights and machines can produce similar muscle growth when used properly, while strength gains are often specific to the tool being trained with. So yes, free weights are excellent, but saying they are clearly best for muscle gains is too certain. A combination is probably the smarter view.

At our age, it is often more about maintaining and preserving than endlessly building, especially after many years of lifting. But there can still be gains, particularly if you stopped training for a while and are rebuilding muscle you once had. Muscle memory is real, and if you train consistently with enough effort, whether with free weights or machines, the body will respond as well as your recovery, diet, sleep, and overall condition allow.

Agree

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Free weights are absolutely a solid contributor, and I like them myself, but you sound more certain than the evidence supports. More balancing and stabilizing does not automatically mean better muscle gains. It often just means less load, more coordination demand, and a different training stimulus. Current reviews suggest that free weights and machines can produce similar muscle growth when used properly, while strength gains are often specific to the tool being trained with. So yes, free weights are excellent, but saying they are clearly best for muscle gains is too certain. A combination is probably the smarter view.

At our age, it is often more about maintaining and preserving than endlessly building, especially after many years of lifting. But there can still be gains, particularly if you stopped training for a while and are rebuilding muscle you once had. Muscle memory is real, and if you train consistently with enough effort, whether with free weights or machines, the body will respond as well as your recovery, diet, sleep, and overall condition allow.

It depends on the exercise and also body type. Some guys cant do a dumbell lat pullover due to body type. Many guys can't do barbell presses without pain. Machines also vary in quality. You are right. The results are mostly the same provided the machines are good quality and intensity is the same. Most growth comes from the negative anyway so it is how you lift what not you lift.

Zane chest day

Sample Day 3: Push (Chest, Shoulders, Triceps)

1. Barbell Bench Press: 3 sets (12, 10, 8 reps)

2. Incline Dumbbell Press: 3 sets (10, 8, 6 reps)

3. Dumbbell Flyes: 3 sets (10–12 reps)

4. Dumbbell Lateral Raises: 3 sets (12, 10, 8 reps)

5. Bent-Over Lateral Raises: 3 sets (10–12 reps)

6. Close-Grip Bench Press: 3 sets (10, 8, 6 reps)

7. Tricep Pushdowns: 3 sets (12 reps)

8. Dips: 3 sets to failure

38 minutes ago, atpeace said:

My blood has loads of creatinine but not a concern for athletes. Athletes that train hard will produce tons of creatinine. The newer and more expensive cystatin C test is the only test that is of any use for me. Age, muscle mass, and high intensity exercise has no impact on the results. My EGFR is 58 using creatine and 111 using cystatin c. Young man Kidneys but my memory is not so good.

Mine was a bit low, hence the supplement ...

27 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

It depends on the exercise and also body type. Some guys cant do a dumbell lat pullover due to body type. Many guys can't do barbell presses without pain. Machines also vary in quality. You are right. The results are mostly the same provided the machines are good quality and intensity is the same. Most growth comes from the negative anyway so it is how you lift what not you lift.

I think you would have a hard time proving that most muscle growth comes from negative reps, still there will also be some value in prioritising negative reps once and awhile especially after years of monoton form of exercises.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I think you would have a hard time proving that most muscle growth comes from negative reps, still there will also be some value in prioritising negative reps once and awhile especially after years of monoton form of exercises.

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I think you would have a hard time proving that most muscle growth comes from negative reps, still there will also be some value in prioritising negative reps once and awhile especially after years of monoton form of exercises.

AI tells you. Mike Mentzer knew this in the 70s

What the Research Says

A landmark meta-analysis published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine and follow-up studies by researchers like Brad Schoenfeld have reached several key conclusions:

• Higher Force Production: You are roughly 20–40% stronger during the negative phase. This allows you to subject the muscle fibers to higher levels of mechanical tension—the #1 driver of hypertrophy.

• Greater Muscle Damage: Eccentric actions cause more micro-tears in the sarcomeres (muscle units). While "soreness" doesn't always equal growth, the specific structural remodeling triggered by eccentric damage is a potent signal for adding muscle mass.

A good example is the cheat bicep curl. Cheat it the way up then lower it slowly. The top bodybuilders worked this out in the 70s

Wow! 6 pages of comments.

Way too much to read.

Most of the comments must be joke comments?

Yes?

Oh!

Surely not?🙃🙃

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

For me they aren't even remotely the same high. It is almost like doing shrooms - well that is a little exaggeration but you get the drift

You should try nano emulsion edibles. Bypass that liver first pass digestion and go straight to the blood stream. 😆

The thc delta 9 remains mostly intact and doesnt degrade from being processed ........resulting in higher bioavailability.

So you're not far off at all when you say it's like shrooms.

17 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

AI tells you. Mike Mentzer knew this in the 70s

What the Research Says

A landmark meta-analysis published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine and follow-up studies by researchers like Brad Schoenfeld have reached several key conclusions:

• Higher Force Production: You are roughly 20–40% stronger during the negative phase. This allows you to subject the muscle fibers to higher levels of mechanical tension—the #1 driver of hypertrophy.

• Greater Muscle Damage: Eccentric actions cause more micro-tears in the sarcomeres (muscle units). While "soreness" doesn't always equal growth, the specific structural remodeling triggered by eccentric damage is a potent signal for adding muscle mass.

A good example is the cheat bicep curl. Cheat it the way up then lower it slowly. The top bodybuilders worked this out in the 70s

You are mixing “can be useful” with “proven to be the main driver.” Those are not the same thing. Negative reps may help, but that is still a long way from proving that most muscle growth comes from them.

This research does not prove that negative reps are the main driver of muscle growth. It found a small trend in favor of eccentric work, but not a statistically clear advantage. The practical takeaway is that both the lifting and lowering phases matter, and both should be included in hypertrophy training.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28486337/

We are talking about normal lifters, not people using steroids or growth hormone, because that puts recovery, adaptation, and metabolism on a completely different level. And what is true, and what we have seen many times, is that muscle tears happen more often when people overload tension beyond what the tissue can handle.

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You are mixing “can be useful” with “proven to be the main driver.” Those are not the same thing. Negative reps may help, but that is still a long way from proving that most muscle growth comes from them.

This research does not prove that negative reps are the main driver of muscle growth. It found a small trend in favor of eccentric work, but not a statistically clear advantage. The practical takeaway is that both the lifting and lowering phases matter, and both should be included in hypertrophy training.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28486337/

We are talking about normal lifters, not people using steroids or growth hormone, because that puts recovery, adaptation, and metabolism on a completely different level. And what is true, and what we have seen many times, is that muscle tears happen more often when people overload tension beyond what the tissue can handle.

All the top bodybuilders incl naturals do slow negatives. I believe them. They know.

Recent study said for strength do 70 to 85% of 1rm 3-4 reps shy of failure. For size do 70-85% of 1rm only 1-2 reps shy of failure. 70% is about 12 reps and 85% is about 5 reps.

11 minutes ago, Rockyroad said:

All the top bodybuilders incl naturals do slow negatives. I believe them. They know.

A slower negative is quite normal, but I would not overload with negative weight I cannot lift for one proper rep myself. Getting a bit of help on the last 2–3 reps once in a while is normal enough too.

What matters most is enough muscular stress, enough rest, and of course diet. And it is worth remembering why we train at our age and stage of life. For most of us, the goal is to maintain strength, muscle, function, and health, not to become world champions

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

A slower negative is quite normal, but I would not overload with negative weight I cannot lift for one proper rep myself. Getting a bit of help on the last 2–3 reps once in a while is normal enough too.

What matters most is enough muscular stress, enough rest, and of course diet. And it is worth remembering why we train at our age and stage of life. For most of us, the goal is to maintain strength, muscle, function, and health, not to become world champions

I agree but it is nice to know which methods work best. I want to get stronger each year not maintain.

Both the positive and negative are needed for growth, but the negative, done slowly, has the micro tears which cause the most growth. Entire range of motion is what I learned 50 years ago and is still how the grow the most muscle fast. It also increases strength doing the negatives, and strength means growth.

When I first started, I read everything i could, along with listening to the large bodybuilders and power lifters talking in the gyms, and it all was much the same. Causing the most "damage" to the muscles has them grow the most.An arm workout would be, Starting with standing heavy curls, 3 sets, or preachers with extra rep help, then 3 of dumbbell concentration curls, then hammers for three, ending with wrist curls with high reps. When done you couldn't grab a plate without dropping it.

Even forced negatives were used by others and I in the first 30 years of training, a group of us all helping each other.

Some sets were pure negatives, where one man would lift most of the weight off you and all you did was negatives.

All different ways of training. Machines, dumbbells, barbell, extra reps from spotting, all help hit the muscles in different ways, as they have a memory and need to be shocked every now and then to force more growth.

When I power lifted squats, I worked out with other strong gym members, all helping the others get an extra rep or two , where you couldn't safely if you were alone. This link explains what we did..https://www.menshealth.com/uk/building-muscle/train-smarter/a61748848/forced-negatives-for-muscle-growth/

I'm 74. Parents lived to 95 and 101. Doubt I'll make it that far but hope to last into my 80s. Fairly good shape, not overweight, don't smoke, rarely drink. Likely will need a heart stent sooner or later due to a clogged artery. Like to keep active, swim aerobics and light exercise about every day. Try to treasure and enjoy every day.

Which is Better?

It depends on your specific goal for the session:

• For Pure Hypertrophy: LLPs are currently considered "king." Many athletes now use "integrated partials," where they perform full ROM reps until failure, then finish the set with LLPs in the stretched position to completely exhaust the muscle.

• For Strength & Tendon Health: Slow negatives are superior. They teach the nervous system to handle heavier loads and are vital for injury prevention in high-impact movements.

• For Variety: You might try a Slow Negative Long Length Partial—lowering the weight very slowly into the stretch and then pulsing in that bottom range. It is an extremely intense way to finish a muscle group.

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

weight I cannot lift for one proper rep myself.

Time under tension may be under-estimated .... using light weights but for more prolonged periods. This will greatly minimize injury risk. People over 50 need to watch out being cowboys in the gym with these heavy loads.

Maybe 10 lb dumbbells is all you need to stay fit and strong enough. You won't get big, but who cares? Women don't even care if you look like The Hulk.

Although I haven't tried it yet, but I think I'm done with the gym. I hated it and my nervous system was a wreck. I slept all day once after a workout. You can't walk for 3 days after leg workouts. It's HELL.