1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

@unblocktheplanet What is your source for saying "Zionists have had the displacement if not the annihilation of Palestinians since 1897?" Neither displacement nor annihilation were goals of the Zionist movement.

The original manifesto of the Zionist movement, the Basel Program, was unanimously adopted at the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, on 30 August 1897. It made no mention of displacing Palestinians. You can read it here: https://azm.org/basel-program-1897/

After the founding of the State of Israel in 1948, the Basel Program was replaced in 1951 by the expanded Jerusalem Program as the ideological basis of political Zionism. It didn't mention displacing Arabs.

https://azm.org/wzo/jerusalem-program/

Theodor Herzl is credited as the father of modern political Zionism and he did not advocate displacement of Arabs, much less their annihilation. "In Herzl’s vision, Arab landowners would willingly sell their land in order to invest in modern agriculture and industry. The end result would be that they, and the peasants who worked their land, would be far better off as a consequence of the Jews’ arrival."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/zionist-attitudes-towards-arabs-1902-until-today/

Herzl's view was a bit naive, but has nothing to do with forced displacement or annihilation.

Thanks, Ev. Yes, I got my facts mixed. The Zionist programme of 'transfer' did not begin until the 1930s and was solidified in 1945.

Please see my longer reply to Jing.

Just now, Jingthing said:

About colonization.

Zionism flawed as it might be as is every other human ideology that ever existed, was basically a LIBERATION movement.

So what country were the early Zionist pioneers colonizing for?

The Jewish people had no country until 1948.

Nor do Jains or Sikhs or Zoroastrians today. Apparently, they don't want or need one.

This topic has trailed away from the issue: Settlers destroying schools and killing schoolchildren. No one can defend the indefensible.

I am reminded of the British colonists hunting Aboriginals for sport. They regarded them as subhuman. The Nazis called those sent to the camps, untermensch. That is precisely the way Israelis are treating Palestinians.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

This topic has trailed away from the issue: Settlers destroying schools and killing schoolchildren. No one can defend the indefensible.

I am reminded of the British colonists hunting Aboriginals for sport. They regarded them as subhuman. The Nazis called those sent to the camps, untermensch. That is precisely the way Israelis are treating Palestinians.

Like the German term "untermensch", and the British colonists calling Aboriginals "Abos" and "Boong", and US colonists calling native Americans "savages," many Israelis who support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians call the Arabs "Amalek¹." One commonality of all genocides is the dehumanization of the victims by the oppressor. Genocide in all of it's forms and rationales - is abhorrent.

1. "God commands the Israelites to remember what Amalek did and to blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." (Deuteronomy 25:17–19); “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” 1 Samuel 15:2–3

Edited May 4May 4 by connda

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Nor do Jains or Sikhs or Zoroastrians today. Apparently, they don't want or need one.

Jews were persecuted for thousands of years in the diaspora so.the liberation.movement of Zionism was about wanting one and arguing the need for one.

The Kurds want one and I would argue they need one.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Nobody's a saint. Israelis and Palestinians both have their share of evil bastards.

Yeah, since I became aware of this issue, you're right, I have become a hardline anti-Zionist and am even on the cusp of believing that Jews do not deserve a State of Israel.

I would not be demonising the Zionists had they not become racist demons.

Where were Palestinians in 1897? D'uh, living peacefully in Palestine, of course! Parts of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, even Egypt. There may have been a handful of Jews on the land but immigration didn't really pick up significantly until the 20s.

Your figures show a fivefold growth in the Palestinian population in Palestine. It is completely impossible to estimate the Jewish birthrate during that period because of massive immigration. However, ~8.7M babies were born in Israel 1948-2026.

To put things in a more realistic perspective, in 1948, there were 717,000 Jews in Israel and today, almost 8M. Not quite equal numbers but expelling the Palestinians to Somaliland would be a logistical fubar.

As for annihilation, Israelis keep trying, don't they.

Garbage accumulation.

If Israel actually wanted to murder all the Palestinians including 20 percent comprising their own citizens they could have done that decades ago.

That has never been the intention of Israeli governments and it is not the intention now.

Just now, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Pants on fire .... this is not the first time you have claimed this lie. I believe everything else you say and ignore this predictable and repetitive disclaimer

I see you

If there is one thing that is absolutely certain it is that you see infinitely less than you think you see. Your bizarre allegiances blind you to that fact.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

This topic has trailed away from the issue: Settlers destroying schools and killing schoolchildren. No one can defend the indefensible.

I am reminded of the British colonists hunting Aboriginals for sport. They regarded them as subhuman. The Nazis called those sent to the camps, untermensch. That is precisely the way Israelis are treating Palestinians.

There you you again with your Jew hating conflation of Israel with Nazi Germany.

You can't just criticize them in a normal way.

Now in Southern Lebanon.

Claim that Lebonese villages are "Hezbollah strongholds." Destroy virtually all of the homes in the village by packing them with explosives and detonating them.
Btw - this reprisal is called "Collective Punishment" and is a war crime. Claim that "Hezbollah fired missiles at the IDF" and then pack the homes of Lebanese villages with explosives and then level the entire village. This is despicable and inhumane. Those who condone this are equally despicable.

Just now, Jingthing said:

Jews were persecuted for thousands of years in the diaspora so.the liberation.movement of Zionism was about wanting one and arguing the need for one.

The Kurds want one and I would argue they need one.

Right, Jing. Let's carve the world up into theocracies. That will make everybody nicey-nicey with each other.

Absolutely, nobody wants the Kurds as no one wants the Palestinians. I had to look it up but, although the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims, other Kurds practice Alevism, Shia Islam, Yazidism, Yarsanism (Ahl-e Haqq), and Zoroastrianism.

However, there are 45 million Kurds, so where would be this homeland. The Sikhs, who have also been badly treated, are also too numerous. Perhaps a Canadian province.

Jains, Zoroastrians and Yazidi, all of whom have been historically and are currently oppressed would be more manageable.

But my bet is that these people would choose where they have always lived, where the traditions are held and the bones are buried.

Just like Jews returning to Russia. No matter how horrible, there's no place like home. (Ask Dorothy.)

Just now, Jingthing said:

Garbage accumulation.

If Israel actually wanted to murder all the Palestinians including 20 percent comprising their own citizens they could have done that decades ago.

That has never been the intention of Israeli governments and it is not the intention now.

Gaza annihilation. West Bank settlers.

Israel has a funny way of showing their neighbourly intentions.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Right, Jing. Let's carve the world up into theocracies. That will make everybody nicey-nicey with each other.

Absolutely, nobody wants the Kurds as no one wants the Palestinians. I had to look it up but, although the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims, other Kurds practice Alevism, Shia Islam, Yazidism, Yarsanism (Ahl-e Haqq), and Zoroastrianism.

However, there are 45 million Kurds, so where would be this homeland. The Sikhs, who have also been badly treated, are also too numerous. Perhaps a Canadian province.

Jains, Zoroastrians and Yazidi, all of whom have been historically and are currently oppressed would be more manageable.

But my bet is that these people would choose where they have always lived, where the traditions are held and the bones are buried.

Just like Jews returning to Russia. No matter how horrible, there's no place like home. (Ask Dorothy.)

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Right, Jing. Let's carve the world up into theocracies. That will make everybody nicey-nicey with each other.

Absolutely, nobody wants the Kurds as no one wants the Palestinians. I had to look it up but, although the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims, other Kurds practice Alevism, Shia Islam, Yazidism, Yarsanism (Ahl-e Haqq), and Zoroastrianism.

However, there are 45 million Kurds, so where would be this homeland. The Sikhs, who have also been badly treated, are also too numerous. Perhaps a Canadian province.

Jains, Zoroastrians and Yazidi, all of whom have been historically and are currently oppressed would be more manageable.

But my bet is that these people would choose where they have always lived, where the traditions are held and the bones are buried.

Just like Jews returning to Russia. No matter how horrible, there's no place like home. (Ask Dorothy.)

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Right, Jing. Let's carve the world up into theocracies. That will make everybody nicey-nicey with each other.

Absolutely, nobody wants the Kurds as no one wants the Palestinians. I had to look it up but, although the majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslims, other Kurds practice Alevism, Shia Islam, Yazidism, Yarsanism (Ahl-e Haqq), and Zoroastrianism.

However, there are 45 million Kurds, so where would be this homeland. The Sikhs, who have also been badly treated, are also too numerous. Perhaps a Canadian province.

Jains, Zoroastrians and Yazidi, all of whom have been historically and are currently oppressed would be more manageable.

But my bet is that these people would choose where they have always lived, where the traditions are held and the bones are buried.

Just like Jews returning to Russia. No matter how horrible, there's no place like home. (Ask Dorothy.)

The origins of POLITICAL Zionism which created the state of Israel was about a national homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE. Not about a theocracy. But nations are free to choose theocracies. I don't see you or other extremist obsessive Israel demonizers complaining about the 50ish Islamic nations in the world with imperfect governments, Only Israel. Only the one tiny Jewish one. Oh, the utter moral HYPOCRISY.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Gaza annihilation. West Bank settlers.

Israel has a funny way of showing their neighbourly intentions.

I'm not defending the overkill in Gaza but your use of the world annihilation isn't accurate.

10 percent of the Gaza population killed.

That is way too many people no doubt but that is NOT annihilation.

Again -- you are completely incapable of criticizing Israel in a normal and HONEST way.

Instead, always inflaming Jew hatred.

Just now, Jingthing said:

I'm not defending the overkill in Gaza but your use of the world annihilation isn't accurate.

10 percent of the Gaza population killed.

That is way too many people no doubt but that is NOT annihilation.

Again -- you are completely incapable of criticizing Israel in a normal and HONEST way.

Instead, always inflaming Jew hatred.

"I'm not defending the overkill in Gaza but your use of the world annihilation isn't accurate.

10 percent of the Gaza population killed."

Ok - then let's used the correct word: Decimated. There ya go - much more accurate!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(punishment)

This is all because of Trump. Had Trump not sided with Israel and attacked Iran. the world would not be siding with Hamas and Iran against Israel and the United States.

It's time Trump cut Israel off and ends the madness in Iran such that Iran is able to develop nuclear weapons. With Israel out of the picture, a nuclearized Iran will become the foremost power in middle east, and Obama's vision of peace in the region can finally come to fruition.

Just now, connda said:

"I'm not defending the overkill in Gaza but your use of the world annihilation isn't accurate.

10 percent of the Gaza population killed."

Ok - then let's used the correct word: Decimated. There ya go - much more accurate!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(punishment)

Read your link and that's talking about a very specific military strategy.

The coincidence of the 10 percent number in no way proves that has been Israel's specific strategy in Gaza.

In the more general sense of collective punishment, yes I do think Israel has done that.

Keep in mind that I've called Netanyahu a corrupt war criminal monster multiple times.

I support Israel's right to exist, defend itself, and certainly respond aggressively to the the Oct. 7 massacre, but that's not even close to supporting what Israel actually did in Gaza. I realize there are still many people defending that. Not me. I find it indefensible.

Edited May 4May 4 by Jingthing

Just now, Jingthing said:

Read your link and that's talking about a very specific military strategy.

The coincidence of the 10 percent number in no way proves that has been Israel's specific strategy in Gaza.

In the more general sense of collective punishment, yes I do think Israel has done that.

Keep in mind that I've called Netanyahu a corrupt war criminal monster multiple times.

I support Israel's right to exist, defend itself, and certainly respond aggressively to the the Oct. 7 massacre, but that's not even close to supporting what Israel actually did in Gaza. I realize there are still many people defending that. Not me. I find it indefensible.

Sure, but for Netanyahu and his puppet Trump, both war criminals per the left, everything would be great.

Just now, Jingthing said:

I'm not defending the overkill in Gaza but your use of the world annihilation isn't accurate.

10 percent of the Gaza population killed.

That is way too many people no doubt but that is NOT annihilation.

Again -- you are completely incapable of criticizing Israel in a normal and HONEST way.

Instead, always inflaming Jew hatred.

Okay. 10% of Gazans is not genocide? The standard has to be the one-third of world Jewry Hitler annihiliated?

I grew up among sensitive Jewish intellectuals, writers, musicians, philosophers, teachers. This makes me so disappointed in Israel. They have what they wanted and it still isn't enough.

They flattened Gaza! People are living in tents. The roads are gone so transport is by donkey-cart. If that is not a pogrom, you don't understand the word.

Edited May 4May 4 by unblocktheplanet
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Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Okay. 10% of Gazans is not genocide? The standard has to be the on-third of world Jewry Hitler annihiliated?

I grew up among sensitive Jewish intellectuals, writers, musicians, philosophers, teachers. This makes me so disappointed in Israel. They have what they wanted and it still isn't enough.

They flattened Gaza! People are living in tents. The roads are gone so transport is by donkey-cart. If that is not a pogrom, you don't understand the word.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Okay. 10% of Gazans is not genocide? The standard has to be the on-third of world Jewry Hitler annihiliated?

I grew up among sensitive Jewish intellectuals, writers, musicians, philosophers, teachers. This makes me so disappointed in Israel. They have what they wanted and it still isn't enough.

They flattened Gaza! People are living in tents. The roads are gone so transport is by donkey-cart. If that is not a pogrom, you don't understand the word.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Okay. 10% of Gazans is not genocide? The standard has to be the on-third of world Jewry Hitler annihiliated?

I grew up among sensitive Jewish intellectuals, writers, musicians, philosophers, teachers. This makes me so disappointed in Israel. They have what they wanted and it still isn't enough.

They flattened Gaza! People are living in tents. The roads are gone so transport is by donkey-cart. If that is not a pogrom, you don't understand the word.

I think you're very confused surprising for an Israel demonizer obsessed with conflating Nazi Germany with Israel.

Hitler exterminated the vast majority of Jews in Europe.

His goal was every Jew in the world.

Israel in comparison doesn't intend to murder every Arab in their general region but certainly not every Arab int the world.

After October 7, the vast majority of Israelis did NOT feel in any way that they had what they wanted. They had no choice but to respond. Yes, as said, they went too far and I would agree that is very bad.

Just now, connda said:

Inflammatory" because - you personally disagree with me, so call it "inflammatory" in an attempt to get it censored.

I would personally stop addressing and debating with this person.

He is under-handed.

Even if you post facts which you believe are accurate, he will accuse you of being a Jew hater.

Best to put on ignore.

Just now, Jingthing said:

The origins of POLITICAL Zionism which created the state of Israel was about a national homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE.

Yes, and people were living there. It wasn't barren land.

They knew they had to push them out to achieve this goal.

Just now, Jingthing said:

The origins of POLITICAL Zionism which created the state of Israel was about a national homeland for the Jewish PEOPLE. Not about a theocracy. But nations are free to choose theocracies. I don't see you or other extremist obsessive Israel demonizers complaining about the 50ish Islamic nations in the world with imperfect governments, Only Israel. Only the one tiny Jewish one. Oh, the utter moral HYPOCRISY.

Ya know, if any of those other nations were warring on their neighbours--for nearly 80 years, I'd be saying the same thing. Those other countries may have beautiful cultures. I know that about Iran because I've been there but not about the others.

Every govt is imperfect. But not all of them are in fulltime war with more than one country.

My Israeli friends tell me Israel is not a theocracy and then they get to...maybe.

Am I a demoniser? Yes, I am. But not of Israel. Of war in any shape or form including WWII. I think all wars can be won by negotiation or attrition.

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Ya know, if any of those other nations were warring on their neighbours--for nearly 80 years, I'd be saying the same thing. Those other countries may have beautiful cultures. I know that about Iran because I've been there but not about the others.

Every govt is imperfect. But not all of them are in fulltime war with more than one country.

My Israeli friends tell me Israel is not a theocracy and then they get to...maybe.

Am I a demoniser? Yes, I am. But not of Israel. Of war in any shape or form including WWII. I think all wars can be won by negotiation or attrition.

Garbage! Israel had no choice but to become a military power in order to continue to EXIST. But I get it -- you don't want them to exist. You exist is some kind of naive fantasy world that Israel is living in a friendly neighborhood. From the very beginning of their existence, they were viciously attacked.

Edited May 4May 4 by Jingthing

Okay, back on track here. Is there anyone who thinks shooting schoolchildren & olive farmers is not terrorism?

Don't belabour me with settlers, colonisers, reservists, IDF, police, secret police nonsense. Take a high colonic for all that.

Isn't anyone shooting schoolchildren including US school shootings not, by definition, a terrorist?

Just now, save the frogs said:

I would personally stop addressing and debating with this person.

He is under-handed.

Even if you post facts which you believe are accurate, he will accuse you of being a Jew hater.

Best to put on ignore.

I wonder why you all argue non stop about the ME.

There are terrorist actions and also terrorist government policies.

For example, Putin's regime has an explicit policy of terrorism against Ukraine.

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Just now, Rockyroad said:

I wonder why you all argue non stop about the ME.

its just the way it is, man

Just now, unblocktheplanet said:

Okay. 10% of Gazans is not genocide? The standard has to be the one-third of world Jewry Hitler annihiliated?

I grew up among sensitive Jewish intellectuals, writers, musicians, philosophers, teachers. This makes me so disappointed in Israel. They have what they wanted and it still isn't enough.

They flattened Gaza! People are living in tents. The roads are gone so transport is by donkey-cart. If that is not a pogrom, you don't understand the word.

Germany collaborated with Palestine (and others) to eradicate all Jews, the only reason they didn't, was because they were stopped before they finished.

Israel could have flattened Gaza, and eradicated Gazans the weeks following 10/7, Israel chose not to.

Do you see the difference? Of course you don't.