An Evolutionary Analysis Of Thai-farang Relationships

[Etrigan]

"In the west it is estimated that blah blah blah"

Question: Estimated by who?

[Jimjim]

I don't understand why this is a separate topic from the other one. I wish nobody had responded here. Anyway, even if women have the urge to cheat, or men, the point is that we are not merely instinctual animals. Haven't we evolved to be thinking, rational beings? So, if anyone uses evolution and instinct as an excuse for cheating, they've lost the plot. We're capable of making a conscious decision to engage in monogamy with a married partner if we use our heads and see that if both partners are fully invested in the marriage, the joy, comfort, and security of monogamy is better than any sort of polygamy or use of multiple sexual partners.

[GuestHouse]

JimJim, you are right of course, but missing the sub-thesis.

The sub-thesis here is that if accept the premis that evolution drives or behaviour (and that is as yet not proven) - then we arrive at the argument that an idividual who is driven by evolutionary pre-programming of his/her behaviour has no morral responsibility for their behaviour - at worst their behaviour is 'Natural'.

The logical conclusion of that argument is the evolutionary pre-programmed urges to reproduce, eat/survice, defend one's survival (and the things needed to survive) would justify Rape, Theft, any level of violence including murder.

The alternative view that we are sentient beings in posession of free will is the central core of philisophical and theological debate on the behaviour of individuals and their personal responsibility for those actions.

The 'I'm only responding to nature' argument is attractive to some - But then we ought to ask to who and what is it about them that they find that argument so pursausive?

And here's a thing - These Thai women who evolution is driving old western guys to loose the plot over.

They come from a culture that is diametrically oposed to the idea of the 'individual acting as the individual with no responsibility to the group and group morals'.

Once again foreign guys who don't understand the social rules - so often conclude there are non.

The posts above are repleat with missunderstandings of what is going on in Thai society.

Edited August 30, 2007 by GuestHouse

[canadiangirl]

The logical conclusion of that argument is the evolutionary pre-programmed urges to reproduce, eat/survice, defend one's survival (and the things needed to survive) would justify Rape, Theft, any level of violence including murder.

Very good post, GH. I agree with you.

This is one of the big reasons evolutionary psych is such a controversial field -- there must be some good in there somewhere, but it's always getting trotted out by every jerk with some axe to grind (Op, I'm not accusing you of this) or some racist or sexist bull to back up.

I usually encounter it in some bogus argument about why men are better than women at mathematics.

[JohnnyThai]

I never tried to imply that people aren't responsible for their actions or can blame their actions on nature. Really, the thesis of my post was that

1. There is no difference between an 18 year old marrying a 60 year old for money then a 30 year old marrying a 40 year old for money

2. If someone is marrying for money, it'd make the most sense to choose the mate who required the least of them physically and had the most money.

3. It is impossible (or at least very unlikely) for an eight-teen year old to be sexually/physically attracted to a sixty year old man.

4. I find it very unlikely that either the male or female in these relationships are faithful.

The people responding that there are differences in Thai culture which allow for a sixty year old man to walk hand in hand with an eight-teen year old girl are only slightly correct. Thai people save face and will smile in front of you and then talk behind your back. Thai men might take mistresses and cheat on their wives, but I don't recall ever seeing any of them bouncing through a shopping mall with their arm around her waist and mouth on her cheek. So you might want to stop patting yourself on the back at how envious Thai people are of your wealth and trophy wife. Is this reason why Farang handle themselves so poorly in Thailand? Because Thais are so friendly, laid back and always smile at them? If anything, Thais provide much more leeway to Farang under the assumption that we are different from them.

True or False? If sixty year old Thai men do not walk around shopping malls with their twenty year old wife, then that means that is likely because it is deemed in appropriate in Thai Culture.

Edited August 30, 2007 by JohnnyThai

[sleepyjohn]

This is one of the big reasons evolutionary psych is such a controversial field -- there must be some good in there somewhere, but it's always getting trotted out by every jerk with some axe to grind (Op, I'm not accusing you of this) or some racist or sexist bull to back up.

You're obviously not the person to discuss determinism (free will or rather lack of it) with. Or perhaps you're exactly the person.

If I had a strong opinion as you seem to I wouldn't bother ameliorating it in the same sentence in which you give it. If there "must be some good in there somewhere" presumably you see a majority of bad in there. Evidence/train of thought/source of revelation as to why would be welcome.

Edited August 30, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[Maigo6]

So you might want to stop patting yourself on the back at how envious Thai people are of your wealth and trophy wife.

Is this reason why farang handle themselves so poorly in Thailand?

Nice troll Johnny, maybe this time you will get a few bites.

[JohnnyThai]

So you might want to stop patting yourself on the back at how envious Thai people are of your wealth and trophy wife.

Is this reason why farang handle themselves so poorly in Thailand?

Nice troll Johnny, maybe this time you will get a few bites.

Thai men might have a history of infedility, but they also have a strong history of following a first wife policy. What old men do with young women should be kept behind closed doors, not in the public. Therefore, if it is not acceptable for Thai men to behave in this manner, then why is it acceptable for Farang? The answer is simple, Farang get a free pass in Thailand because we aren't Thai.

[a2396]

Eight-teen year old women are not sexually attracted to sixty year old men and never will. This is not opinion, but science.

Luckily I chose a 19 year old.

Tsk,tsk. You bad old geezer you!! Let's see. I hope your age is no more than 25, or you are "off the map" according to some of our moral guideline setters. Actually, more power to you. Enjoy while you can, as long as it is a fair and equitable relationship.

[mellow1]

Women all over the world are brought up and told about Prince Charming.A handsome,rich young man,who will provide everything needed for infinite happiness.The majority find some guy with an average job,which sustains them at a basic survival level.Many get pissed off at the man of their choice,for not being able to meet their quite reasonable expectations.They are unwilling to wait,and work 10 or 20 years in order to accumulate the funds needed for a better life.These women then seek a divorce,take the children and live on child support and alimony.Along comes some guy who has been keeping his nose to the grindstone,a bit older,not as good looking,but very attractive,due to his income.He is all of a sudden showered with lots of attention,by a very sensitive,shy woman,who has obviously had a difficult past.He feels the need to protect her,to take care of her.He marries her.Now this womans life has dramatically improved.She has this well to do man's income,plus child support until the children turn 18 or finish college.Things are looking up.If she is in her early 20's,she can again get pregnant at 40 or 45.Not exactly Prince Charming,but things could be a lot worse.

Who can possibly criticize an older man going for young women under these circumstances?

[a2396]

This looks like a variation on the other topic posted re: Farangs & failed marriages, which now stands at 42 pages. A hot topic 4 sure. Let's face this big generalization, men want sex & plenty of it and women want money and plenty of it. So, wherever they will find the best quality and quanity, they will go.

[Jimjim]

JimJim, you are right of course, but missing the sub-thesis.

My post may have not used their words, but that's what was driving my words. You wrote exactly what was in my head. So, my post missed the sub-thesis in the explanation you gave, but I certainly didn't.

JohnnyThai, I know that is not the main point of what you were saying, but it seemed to be part of your theory, anyway.

[WaiWai]

JimJim, you are right of course, but missing the sub-thesis.

My post may have not used their words, but that's what was driving my words. You wrote exactly what was in my head. So, my post missed the sub-thesis in the explanation you gave, but I certainly didn't.

JohnnyThai, I know that is not the main point of what you were saying, but it seemed to be part of your theory, anyway.

Yes, it seems to be quite the new fad, this "biological" argument . It seems it would be very much against the "biological" interests of some to see more Thais get better opportunities in life than are currently available to them.

Enjoy while you can, as long as it is a fair and equitable relationship.

That's the sticking point, every time.

[Khun ?]

When I was in my twenties one of my best sexual experiences was with an overweight 57 year old argentinian woman in a swimming pool. I'm sure many girls have a ball with older men.

You need to get out more often

[mrbojangles]

Just curious, what's the little guy with the coffee cup reading?

The Lonely Hearts column

[dave111223]

From the evolutionary perspective, the most ideal scenario for a women is to have a rich, faithful husband who will raise and care for a son of another man with superior genes (attractive, young, strong) who is not her husband.

Yes young genes are great... too bad they wear out after awhile...

Edited August 30, 2007 by dave111223

[JohnnyThai]

People must take responsibility for their actions, it does not change the fact that human beings are naturally wired for infidelity. In any of these 30+ age gaps, I would expect the female infidelity rate to be at least 95%+.

[a2396]

From the evolutionary perspective, the most ideal scenario for a women is to have a rich, faithful husband who will raise and care for a son of another man with superior genes (attractive, young, strong) who is not her husband.

Yes young genes are great... too bad they wear out after awhile...

It's JEANS, as in Levis. Two mules couldn't pull them apart. So their ad claimed, but I'm not old enough to remember the origional. Missed the gold rush in '48.

[Maigo6]

People must take responsibility for their actions, it does not change the fact that human beings are naturally wired for infidelity. In any of these 30+ age gaps, I would expect the female infidelity rate to be at least 95%+.

C'mon JohhnyThai, tell us about what happened to you, how much she sting you for when she ran off with a 21 year old Thai guy?

[Carmine6]

Again, this a subconscious part of our nature left over from evolution

And if you are wrong on that point, then your whole thesis collapses - I say you are wrong.

Prove to me that you have evidence that the above statement is true or that your evolutionary model is correct.

(Bull sh1t does not always baffle brains)

Without any commentary on anything other than the sperm issue, I did see a show on National Geographic about sex that mentioned this. It was a UK produced show and I think a UK study.

The BBC has this article from 18 March 2000.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/681172.stm

Absence 'boosts sperm levels'

Sperm counts can vary dramatically

Men's fertility levels almost double when they spend the majority of their time away from their partners, scientists have discovered.

A report in the scientific journal Personality and Individual Differences says a man's sperm count varies significantly depending on how much he sees his partner...

[WaiWai]

Thats one of the things I like about Thailand; There isn't this whole guilt-trip thing about sex and younger women, keeping mistresses etc. Here theres an easy going vibe that says 'Be discreet, but have fun. Be cool and act responsible.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Europe, if he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone says 'What a dirty old man.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Thailand and he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone (apart from a few puritan farangs who may see them) couldn't give a flying fck.

Sorry, but this is close to being the opposite of the truth.

Thais hate seeing this situation; it brings a whole bundle of unpleasant social & economic realities into the open (not least of which is some families encouraging their youth to sell themselves to/enter into relationships with foreigners). They smile and "don't see" precisely because it is a hugely shameful situation for the young Thai and for Thais & Thai society in general.

Think about attitudes towards American soldiers on shore leave in countries such as Australia if you are having trouble grasping how most Thais might feel about this.

As another poster says, you will not see many older Thais walking about with their young teerak (and certainly not publicly groping or otherwise humiliating them, as is so often seen in foreign-Thai couples.)

Edited August 30, 2007 by WaiWai

[WaiWai]

In pure Buddhism, and please correct me if I am wrong, women are not supposed to have possesion of the 5 deadly sins, one being lust. Therefore, sexual attraction in Buddhist ideas is very low in the list of priorities for a woman when selecting a partner.

Hence, being with an older man be it farang or Thai is less of an issue in Thailand than it is in the West.

Oh my goodness, we've even got a Buddhist justification going now !

Edited August 30, 2007 by WaiWai

[Jimjim]

People must take responsibility for their actions, it does not change the fact that human beings are naturally wired for infidelity. In any of these 30+ age gaps, I would expect the female infidelity rate to be at least 95%+.

Thanks for your completely unscientific and unfounded guess.

However, I did read a study recently from the U.S. which found that a higher percentage of women had been unfaithful in marriage than men. Surprising? Certainly was. The study also found that the men who cheated, though, had cheated with more people than women. The women who cheated usually kept their indiscretions to a lower number.

[JohnnyThai]

"Surprising? Certainly was."

It is not surprising at all.

[wadsy]

When I was in my twenties one of my best sexual experiences was with an overweight 57 year old argentinian woman in a swimming pool. I'm sure many girls have a ball with older men.

Or two............................

[ratchabuild]

From a statistical point of view what are the chances of an ardent poster and troll on the subject of evolution like bangkoksingapore, who contributed many controversial times to the thread about lucky falangs and collapsing marriages, failing to put in an appearence on this thread? And what are the chances of Johnnythai................a poster without a post to his name appearing to spark this thread just as bangkoksingapore disappears. Could they perchance be related? twins perhaps seperated at birth? The one forced to don the iron mask growing up all bitter and twisted like bangkoksingapore and the other, mild mannered and unassuming johnnythai, a force for goodness in the world?

[Maigo6]

From a statistical point of view what are the chances of an ardent poster and troll on the subject of evolution like bangkoksingapore, who contributed many controversial times to the thread about lucky falangs and collapsing marriages, failing to put in an appearence on this thread? And what are the chances of Johnnythai................a poster without a post to his name appearing to spark this thread just as bangkoksingapore disappears. Could they perchance be related? twins perhaps seperated at birth? The one forced to don the iron mask growing up all bitter and twisted like bangkoksingapore and the other, mild mannered and unassuming johnnythai, a force for goodness in the world?

Haha.............you may be right, could be the same person.

[GuestHouse]

I see the OP's argument has moved forward from a half baked 'theory' to the presentation of unsupported percentages (95% nontheless).

[qwertz]

If we're still on the subject of a bit on the side, allow me a brief comment here please.

In my younger, wilder, richer days I often philandered with married women.

They were in fact my main target and preference because they always go home after the act and don't kiss and tell.

On the occasions I asked them why they strayed the answers were remarkably similar.

They'd married young, borne and reared children, nursed hubby through an embryonic career while staying home like a good girl and keeping house.

The kids are now growing up, hubby is well entrenched in his job and often travels or comes home late, full of boring stories about office politics.

So why take the risk of rocking the boat?

Simple, they were bored and neglected and I often had the feeling that putting out was a minor favour in return for a little adventure.

So all you guys out there with tasty wives, pay them lots of attention because if you don't, there's bound to be young replacements

for guys like me out there.

Edited August 30, 2007 by qwertz

[ColPyat]

So all you guys out there with tasty wives, pay them lots of attention because if you don't, there's bound to be young replacements

for guys like me out there.

Wasn't that somewhat similar to my position in the other thread?

'Ya know, married women here looking for someone that they can relate to, who they have a shared language with, common humor, and having bits on the side, etc?