11 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

When 25 percent of women, in the USA, is taking psychotropic drugs,

That’s astonishing, had no idea so many are under the influence of psychotropic drugs. That must explain why the last time back in the US we seen some weird reactions by women such as out of the blue horn honking bird flipping uptight in the grocery line berserkies out and about.

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

People respond differently to medication. Some have genetic variants that affect how they metabolize or respond to certain drugs, which can increase side effects or reduce effectiveness. For some, SSRIs and other psychiatric medications can worsen symptoms or simply be the wrong treatment.

Personally, I have lost three friends to suicide after they started taking SSRIs. I am not saying the medication caused their deaths, only that individual responses to these drugs can differ dramatically.

Three friends?

This is due to the true insidiousness of these drugs, upon tapering off and withdrawl.

How is this different from the Total Scam in the USA of Oxycontin and Pill Mills?

It is all based on fudging the results, and restricting information, and skewing the data to increase profit for a very few.

It is criminal, yet nobody goes to jail.

3 minutes ago, novacova said:

That’s astonishing, had no idea so many are under the influence of psychotropic drugs. That must explain why the last time back in the US we seen some weird reactions by women such as out of the blue horn honking bird flipping uptight in the grocery line berserkies out and about.

Maybe they were the women who were attempting to taper off, or wean themselves from the drugs, which can have catastrophic consequences.

As for men, the rate is nearly at 22 percent of the populion.

WORSE YET, is that American Adults are now, and have been, drugging their children, based partially on false claims by drug companies.

It is far simpler to reach for a pill for your kid, rather than to investigate the causes of behavior.

I recall that, in the very early 60s and late 50s, in the elementary school classrooms of my school in Merion PA, there were no crazy kids, and there were no ADHD kids...but only kids.

We sat in class and then we had lunch, and then we went out for exercise, and then finished the school day, and then rode the bus home, where we had more outdoor exercise until dinner, and then homework.

A simple boring life WITHOUT DRUGS.

Since then, America has gradualy gone completely bonkers.

Look no further than the food Americans eat, and the drugs Americans take.

And, the advertising and other propaganda to which they expose themselves, fairly willingly.

But...I digress.....

16 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Shrinks like to say that any mental illness is never 'cured' only in 'remission'. I think that's a debilitating POV for the patient: "I'll never be cured, I'll always be this wa."

Some become symptom free after treatment and a one time crisis or a few fallbacks only. Others are born with a vulnerability they may carry for life. Whether it becomes illness can depend on childhood, later experiences, daily pressure, and how you manage to work around it, ease your situation and find a way forward. There is a recipe that can help or ease the daily struggles, but it takes initiative, consistent work and dedication, and also resources and support.

11 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Three friends?

This is due to the true insidiousness of these drugs, upon tapering off and withdrawl.

How is this different from the Total Scam in the USA of Oxycontin and Pill Mills?

It is all based on fudging the results, and restricting information, and skewing the data to increase profit for a very few.

It is criminal, yet nobody goes to jail.

Edit

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by Hummin

In general you're wrong concerning "psychiatric drugs"

There are times and medical episodes in life where those drugs could be life savers.

If you don't need them, a responsible psychiatrist wouldn't prescribe any.

To take those drugs without being supervised by a specialist is similar to playing "Russian Roulette"

18 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Three friends?

This is due to the true insidiousness of these drugs, upon tapering off and withdrawl.

How is this different from the Total Scam in the USA of Oxycontin and Pill Mills?

It is all based on fudging the results, and restricting information, and skewing the data to increase profit for a very few.

It is criminal, yet nobody goes to jail.

You cannot blame the treatment alone, but SSRIs and antipsychotics can still have fatal consequences when given to the wrong people at the wrong time. All three were very resourceful men who struggled internally with their mental health. They were high risk seeking men who had lived life on the edge and carried experiences that could leave many people with PTSD and long term effects.

They finally reached out for help. Two died by suicide shortly after starting treatment. The third died last Christmas after years of struggle and trying many medications. Most people who only knew them casually would never have known they were struggling.

4 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

In general you're wrong concerning "psychiatric drugs"

There are times and medical episodes in life where those drugs could be life savers.

If you don't need them, a responsible psychiatrist wouldn't prescribe any.

To take those drugs without being supervised by a specialist is similar to playing "Russian Roulette"

There are times when medication can serve people well, especially after proper screening and with long term illness. But it should not be handed out after a 15 minute visit with a local doctor and no proper follow up.

2 hours ago, novacova said:

That doesn’t really mean anything, what a person has and how much they read about a subject and experience with subjects of the matter doesn’t particularly give them critical insight. Am not going to mention how much I have read over how many years and what I know of what experience, as it is here say on an internet discussion forum and an indictment on credibility as it is on yours, which seems to lack the understanding that psychotropic drugs, especially when used extensively worsen mental conditions. It’s astonishing that you seem to have missed this with all your in-depth experience and knowledge. These type of drugs are extremely toxic and are a mental health hazard and should be avoided at all costs, even to the pain and misery of self discipline of diet and meditation.

Yet they are handed out like jelly beans. While I acknowledge some people do benefit, my first choices would always be lifestyle interventions—exercise, diet, and talk therapy. I’d only consider meds as a last resort when all else fails and severe, dark depression sets in.

As for AI, I completely agree with your previous point—it’s an iterative process, not a single-prompt solution. For instance, if you ask an LLM point-blank why ADD drugs are a failure, it’ll initially push back with standard medical consensus. But if you refine the prompt and ask for long-term retention rates at 1, 2, or 5 years, it adjusts its assessment and exposes the massive drop-off rates that suggest broader systemic failure.

56 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

I would not be fool enough to try any of the psychiatric drugs you mention, even though most have overlapping effects.

Some people have serious issues and do need some of these medications.

16 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people have serious issues and do need some of these medications.

Giving serious psychotropic drugs and other class 1 medications without proper follow up, and without helping people change the things that keep them sick, can be like sending an alcoholic to rehab while keeping the bar open 24/7.

50 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

You are a braver man than I, Gunga Din...!!!

I would never test those drugs on my brain.

And of course, brain science is not yet advanced to the point where we can understand how these drugs work.

There is nothing "missing" in our brains, no deficit of some chemical, for which we must add other chemicals...And, I guess, this old theory has now been discredited by observation.

Scientists have lost the will to test on themselves, it's pussification.

I only took a single dose of each over a long period of time so perhaps my experience was really not that of my patients. However, these were the really bad ones, the early antipsychotics.

One I really did enjoy was the Brompton's Cocktail!

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Giving serious psychotropic drugs and other class 1 medications without proper follow up, and without helping people change the things that keep them sick, can be like sending an alcoholic to rehab while keeping the bar open 24/7.

Some people need counseling, psychological help.

But it's very expensive. They're probably charging 200$/hour these days and it goes on for months and months. But maybe those guys too keep people there longer than they should to milk as much money as possible.

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people need counseling, psychological help.

But it's very expensive. They're probably charging 200$/hour these days and it goes on for months and months. But maybe those guys too keep people there longer than they should to milk as much money as possible.

BUT, there is NO PROOF of efficacy for the Talking Cure.....is there???

This might be why it goes on, eternally, as you say.

AND, not only do we drug adults in America, we also drug our children, too.

And, we adjust arbitrary psychiatric classifications based on...NOT SCIENCE....but on intuition or other BS....

Here is one more great vid:

And so, we can easily see that we are STILL in the Dark Ages of mental health treatment.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by GammaGlobulin

34 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people have serious issues and do need some of these medications.

This is debatable.

Just show your evidence based on real science, please, before coming to any conclusions.

1 minute ago, GammaGlobulin said:

This is debatable.

Just show your evidence based on real science, please, before coming to any conclusions.

Some people have murderous tendencies.

Anti-psychotics have undoubtedly prevented a few murders.

Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up the science.

10 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

BUT, there is NO PROOF of efficacy for the Talking Cure.....is there???

This might be why it goes on, eternally, as you say.

Well, what you're doing on here is "talking therapy", isn't it?

If no one replied to your comments, you'd go barking mad.

Some kids can't talk to their parents, have no one to talk to. The therapist becomes a surrogate parent they never had that listens to their problems and shows some empathy, which hardly exists in the real world until you pay someone.

39 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people have serious issues and do need some of these medications.

Yes, some are in need of medications to control urges and help with some symptoms. All mental illnesses can't be lumped together as some are violent oriented, while those with depression are only a danger to themselves.

No amount of diet, exercise or talking is a quick fix for those suffering. If a person develops depression while living a healthy lifestyle there are other things that need addressing, and medicine can help them, at least until the whole picture is seen.

Medical issues, underlying trauma, high stress, environment, seasonal triggers, and genetics all come into play, which is why helping a person who has depression must mean all bases are touched, and it can take a lot of time if it's genetic to turn around, if it can be.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate.

Here we have UPSIDE-DOWN Science.

The Scientific Method, seemingly, does NOT apply to the Drug Industry NOR to the Psychiatric Profession.

ADHD, here, is merely a lens through which we can clearly see the FAILURE of the mental health industry, as a whole....

9 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Some people have murderous tendencies.

Anti-psychotics have undoubtedly prevented a few murders.

Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up the science.

It is highly possible that these drugs have caused more murderss and suicides than they have prevented.

There is nothing wrong with your being lazy, unless you try to cure your affliction with psychotropic drugs.

2 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

This is debatable.

Just show your evidence based on real science, please, before coming to any conclusions.

There are people who cycle on and off medication and become severely ill every time they stop, only to start again. For many of them, the medication keeps them stable, but once they feel better they believe they are no longer sick and stop taking it. That is the most common pattern I have personally seen. Most people, however, use medication for a shorter period and never need it again, either on its own or together with other forms of treatment.

Talking can be life changing if the person understands what needs to be done and manages to use the tools they gain through cognitive therapy, together with their own effort and self help. Another common mistake is to mask the symptoms with other “medications” and believe that keeps them in check, mostly because they want it to be true. But they often remain stuck in the same place.

Healing is often a total package. Discipline, diet, exercise and mind work all take effort and training. Even simple exercises can help change patterns of thought instead of constantly feeding negativity. Medication can be part of it when necessary, but the mind is like a garden. You cultivate what you sow and nurture, and I cannot stress that enough.

1 minute ago, save the frogs said:

Some people have murderous tendencies.

Anti-psychotics have undoubtedly prevented a few murders.

Sorry, I'm too lazy to look up the science.

I agree - time and place for most things. The issue is that they are handed out too easily and the drugs have huge marketing budgets. It isn't there efficacy but profits that are important. IMO, most people on the drugs shouldn't be. I would bet we all have known at least one person that is medicated that has killed themselves or screwed up the attempt. These drugs are dangerous and too many doctors ignore this fact. Even if they don't kill themselves many are miserable while on the drugs after a few months.

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

Well, what you're doing on here is "talking therapy", isn't it?

If no one replied to your comments, you'd go barking mad.

Some kids can't talk to their parents, have no one to talk to. The therapist becomes a surrogate parent they never had that listens to their problems and shows some empathy, which hardly exists in the real world until you pay someone.

Barking Mad?

I think not.

In a sense, what you say is correct.

It is possible to replace psychotherapy with community support, support from friends and family, in the Asian setting.

However, in the west, this might not work as well, since Americans are the ones most at risk for suffering from alienation.

I think I will never be BARKING mad, though....

Like it or not, these drugs are out there, they make money for the drug companies, and they're not going to disappear anytime soon.

For some people, in certain circumstances over short periods of time, they work wonders. On the other hand, I'm sure doctors sometimes prescribe medication because they don't know how to proceed or they just want to make the patient go away.

Back in the early 70s I had a summer job working in a private psychiatric hospital. I was an attendant on a children's ward. Kids 18 and below. Think One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and that would pretty much be the place I worked at but with no nurse Ratched. People were paying big bucks to have their kids treated there. Anyway, that job was a real eye opener. I always thought that the doctors understood everything and if medications were prescribed, that was just what was needed. But that's not what I saw. For example, there was one kid who was always causing trouble, but none of the doctors or other staff could figure out what was wrong with him, exactly. What did they do instead of a treatment plan that might be on point? Throazine. Keep the kid doped up and maybe he won't cause so much trouble. And that's what happened. Every day, the kids lined up to get their pills.

5 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I used to take hallucinogens and psychedelic drugs, and while on them, I believed in EVERYTHING. But now, I don't take them, so my belief system is very limited to only what I physically experience.

Sounds like you literally "broke on through to the other side".

Pat yourself on the back.

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. -- William Blake

9 minutes ago, GammaGlobulin said:

It is highly possible that these drugs have caused more murderss and suicides than they have prevented.

There is nothing wrong with your being lazy, unless you try to cure your affliction with psychotropic drugs.

As far as suicides from depression. it's prevented thousands.Those with depression don't kill others but themselves. Those who are violent need something to keep them calmer, and there's nothing available now that will do that right now.Thousands of case studies where people were contemplating suicide and stopped because of medicines taken.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by fredwiggy

5 minutes ago, Hummin said:

There are people who cycle on and off medication and become severely ill every time they stop, only to start again. For many of them, the medication keeps them stable, but once they feel better they believe they are no longer sick and stop taking it. That is the most common pattern I have personally seen. Most people, however, use medication for a shorter period and never need it again, either on its own or together with other forms of treatment.

I do not agree.

When they cycle off these meds, then they suffer the affects of injury (changes in the brain caused by these drugs, or reactions to these drugs).

These symptoms are NOT the "disease" returning.

Instead, obviously, these are symptoms of withdrawl and injury.

As I mentioned, this is the most insidious aspect and result of these drugs.

Is there a cure?

Maybe, probably, YES....if enough time is allowed after cessation of consumption.

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

Healing is often a total package. Discipline, diet, exercise and mind work all take effort and training. Even simple exercises can help change patterns of thought instead of constantly feeding negativity. Medication can be part of it when necessary, but the mind is like a garden. You cultivate what you sow and nurture, and I cannot stress that enough.

Most would rather swallow a pill and not do the heavy lifting. Sure it rarely fixes the issue but it is easy :) We just went through 2-3 years of Covid and people are fatter and unhealthier than before the pandemic which was the reason so many died. People are addicted to easy fixes and meds and vaccines are what the masses want. I got vaccinated three time so not an anti-vax rant but just saying.....

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

As for men, the rate is nearly at 22 percent of the populion.

Quite astonishing, nearly half the population of the US is under the influence of psychotropic mind altering mood stabilizers, frik’n insane.

9 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I agree - time and place for most things. The issue is that they are handed out too easily and the drugs have huge marketing budgets. It isn't there efficacy but profits that are important. IMO, most people on the drugs shouldn't be. I would bet we all have known at least one person that is medicated that has killed themselves or screwed up the attempt. These drugs are dangerous and too many doctors ignore this fact. Even if they don't kill themselves many are miserable while on the drugs after a few months.

I know only one who killed himself, by jumping from the roof of a building.

He had been prescribed a ton of BENZOS.....

For many, once they consume benzos for months, on a daily basis, then they are up the creek without a paddle.

They have no good options left.

Reduction of intake, stopping consumption, is extremely difficult without great discomfort, and some might say torture.

But, at some point, then these drugs lose their effect, anyway, due to habituation.

There really is no way out, for some, so they think, besides taking a leap into the abyss.

I guess most people are familiar with the sad case of the uni prof Peterson...