No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[pointofview]

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

My thai wife has had british citizenship for 10 years now, however she recently lost her job and has been told that she is to be deported back to thailand as she can no longer prove she has a monthly income

equivilent to the priminsters. She has also been informed that the house she bought 5 years ago was done so illegally - although she followed advice of british lawyers.

Sounds mad doesnt it - amazing!!

[naka]

What planet are you people from ?

All this rubbish about public protests !

You folks have spent far too many years living in overly politically correct

countries like the US and UK. Welcome to a country where no one gives a hoot about YOU.

Just get over it ... comply or go.

In my case I find it the perfect reason to send the wife back home where she belongs.

Naka.

[Prakanong]

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

My thai wife has had british citizenship for 10 years now, however she recently lost her job and has been told that she is to be deported back to thailand as she can no longer prove she has a monthly income

equivilent to the priminsters. She has also been informed that the house she bought 5 years ago was done so illegally - although she followed advice of british lawyers.

Sounds mad doesnt it - amazing!!

How can she be deported back to Thailand if she has British citizenship before which, if i am not mistaken, she would have had ILR (indefinate leave to remain)?

There is more to this than you are posting if she is to be deported!

[Artisi]

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

My thai wife has had british citizenship for 10 years now, however she recently lost her job and has been told that she is to be deported back to thailand as she can no longer prove she has a monthly income

equivilent to the priminsters. She has also been informed that the house she bought 5 years ago was done so illegally - although she followed advice of british lawyers.

Sounds mad doesnt it - amazing!!

What a load of "old cobblers".

[Richard W]

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

My thai wife has had british citizenship for 10 years now, however she recently lost her job and has been told that she is to be deported back to thailand as she can no longer prove she has a monthly income

equivilent to the priminsters. She has also been informed that the house she bought 5 years ago was done so illegally - although she followed advice of british lawyers.

Sounds mad doesnt it - amazing!!

How can she be deported back to Thailand if she has British citizenship before which, if i am not mistaken, she would have had ILR (indefinate leave to remain)?

There is more to this than you are posting if she is to be deported!

This is meant to be how it would be if the UK worked like Thailand. The 'British citizenship' bit is a bit strained, as that is one of the big differences between how the UK systems works and how the Thai system works.

[sonnyJ]

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

Go get your answer here: www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

That's an interesting thread but I don't quite get your point, answers?

Could you be more specific. I wrote in the content of tourist visas, not marriage visas, which are of course easily obtainable in most cases as logic dictates.

[wolfmanjack]

To be any where realistic far an average income you need to take out the top 10% and the bottom 10%. The bottom 10% won't have much of an impast but taking out the top 10% will really reduce the average.

Good idea about the protest. I think that would get the international medias attention. I agree it should wait until after the rule is published in the Royal Gazette.

I doubt that chinese refugees could come up with 800,000 baht to qualify for a retirement visa so I doubt that they are the target. They must be on a different type of visa.

[otton]

That's an interesting thread but I don't quite get your point, answers?

Could you be more specific. I wrote in the content of tourist visas, not marriage visas, which are of course easily obtainable in most cases as logic dictates.

Sorry? In the very first post of the thread (and in several others later in the thread) the banned OP writes about Tourist Visas not "marriage visas":

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: "how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that"?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

[samran]

Otton, you aren't related to BAF are you? You both seem to have an affinity for Italy, a tendency to attack other posters, and lead the discussion on an agenda that you both seem to share, spouting of information that and the ability to write long diatribes that would put wiki to shame.

Sugest you (and others) keep your comments on this thread so that they relate to the original post, and that is the changing of the rules as they pertain to married farang retirees with dependents.

[sonnyJ]

That's an interesting thread but I don't quite get your point, answers?

Could you be more specific. I wrote in the content of tourist visas, not marriage visas, which are of course easily obtainable in most cases as logic dictates.

Sorry? In the very first post of the thread (and in several others later in the thread) the banned OP writes about Tourist Visas not "marriage visas":

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: "how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that"?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

I still don't get you. What are you saying?

[otton]

I still don't get you. What are you saying?

As you can see you and the others are allowed to ask here but I am not allowed to reply (that's why I have just been posting the link to the pertinent thread, so far).

So all I can say is: read the whole thread and post there, I will reply there (if I can).

[sonnyJ]

I still don't get you. What are you saying?

As you can see you and the others are allowed to ask here but I am not allowed to reply (that's why I have just been posting the link to the pertinent thread, so far).

So all I can say is: read the whole thread and post there, I will reply there (if I can).

Well originally I wasn't asking anything. Just stated the facts.

I'm not sure why you quoted me or what are you saying. Nobody's stopping you. So let me hear it, what are you talking about?

[Prakanong]

The gent, would you be posting these same kind of comments on Thai message boards if Western countries started to send the Thais residing in the West back to their smiling home?

My thai wife has had british citizenship for 10 years now, however she recently lost her job and has been told that she is to be deported back to thailand as she can no longer prove she has a monthly income

equivilent to the priminsters. She has also been informed that the house she bought 5 years ago was done so illegally - although she followed advice of british lawyers.

Sounds mad doesnt it - amazing!!

How can she be deported back to Thailand if she has British citizenship before which, if i am not mistaken, she would have had ILR (indefinate leave to remain)?

There is more to this than you are posting if she is to be deported!

This is meant to be how it would be if the UK worked like Thailand. The 'British citizenship' bit is a bit strained, as that is one of the big differences between how the UK systems works and how the Thai system works.

OK - got it now - the attempt at irony

As you say if he had missed out the British citizenship it might have made a better argument - or would it?

In that time a person working in Thailand could get PR or Citizenship - why anyone would is another question!

Having said this though I think Thailand is doing itself a great dis-service by not grandfathering in current residents - if they want to change the gola-posts now then that is fine as people arriving would know where they stand but to change them for people already here is a joke but TiT is a bit of a joke.

[Thailand]

Further to earlier post:

We took a chance and went straight up to immigration today.

One hour later left with our one year visa and multiple re-entry done and dusted and no mention of any changes - but we did not ask!

Our initial reaction was "knee jerk" but we are still going to sell our house - we don't need this sort of hassle now or in the future. We now have one more year to determine the best course of action.

[otton]

Well originally I wasn't asking anything. Just stated the facts.

I'm not sure why you quoted me or what are you saying. Nobody's stopping you. So let me hear it, what are you talking about?

Have you read and understood samran's (a mod) last post?

I don't particularly wish to get banned, like the OP of the linked thread, for "spouting off [uSEFUL, PERTINENT, UNREFUTABLE, NON-DISPROVED] informations which would put Wiki to shame" so that's the last from me on this thread.

[sonnyJ]

Well originally I wasn't asking anything. Just stated the facts.

I'm not sure why you quoted me or what are you saying. Nobody's stopping you. So let me hear it, what are you talking about?

Have you read and understood samran's (a mod) last post?

I don't particularly wish to get banned, like the OP of the linked thread, for "spouting off [uSEFUL, PERTINENT, UNREFUTABLE, NON-DISPROVED] informations which would put Wiki to shame" so that's the last from me on this thread.

If you refer to post #551?.. then I will conclude you had nothing sensible to say in the first place.

The coin has two sides, and it's absolutely crucial to have this imm-emm comparison in the conversation, don't you think..

[PeaceBlondie]

Relating back to the original post, and to related changes that have been made since last year,

IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE. THIS IS THAILAND!

Conspiracy theories are fun but futile. There is no organized conspiracy because 'they' don't do such things here to farang. The powers that be mumble, fumble, make arbitrary, senseless changes, pass laws they don't enforce, and enforce laws they never passed. Which is all the more reason to get the He11 out of Dodge.

Or you can interpret these proposed ungazzetted changes with a mai bpen rai attitude. Unless you can meet the requirements they give you the next time you go to immigration, it doesn't matter what the law ever said. Never mind.

[present]

I think the only thing we can do about it is hurting them in their pocketts.That is the only thing they care about. If foreign capital will leave the country,they will have a problem.Tourists and all kind of people staying in Thailand for certain periods bring lots of money in for the country. The whole visum business for example.How to do such concrete I don't know, because it is overly complicated, and what are the alternatives?

That this will hurt their economy doesn't care for them.It's only the normal people who will feel this,not the politicians of army-chefs. The militair junta installs a dictature and many other unpleasant steps will follow. I am afraid the forthcoming elections won't change much.They will be a vehicle to show the world they are changing to more democracy, but it will only be a show, I am afraid.It is a strange phenomene that in the global economy of today, right nationalistic politicians seems to be in panic to loose grip,power over the people.The people in power doesn't seem to be Buddists, because they act completely contrary from the Buddist philosphy.

Not going to affect me directly but definately a disaster for many, many retired couples.

Thailand has just stopped being a favourable retirement location. I wonder if the powers that be have thought this through as to exactly how many retired couples will now have to sell up and move, taking their (evidently too small) contribution to the local economy with them?

Another fine example of just how tenuous our position here is, I wonder what will be next?

True fact .

But the thing is what can we do about it ?

[dsfbrit]

Relating back to the original post, and to related changes that have been made since last year,

IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE. THIS IS THAILAND!

Conspiracy theories are fun but futile. There is no organized conspiracy because 'they' don't do such things here to farang. The powers that be mumble, fumble, make arbitrary, senseless changes, pass laws they don't enforce, and enforce laws they never passed. Which is all the more reason to get the He11 out of Dodge.

Or you can interpret these proposed ungazzetted changes with a mai bpen rai attitude. Unless you can meet the requirements they give you the next time you go to immigration, it doesn't matter what the law ever said. Never mind.

Spot On PB, once people grasp that fact and stop thinking like a 'farang' - everything falls into place and living in LOS becomes a pleasant, but sometimes chaotic, experience.

Edited September 3, 2007 by dsfbrit

[jumnien]

Ten years now, never had a problem that didn't ultimately resolve itself here in Thailand.

[IAMSOBAD]

Further to earlier post:

We took a chance and went straight up to immigration today.

One hour later left with our one year visa and multiple re-entry done and dusted and no mention of any changes - but we did not ask!

Our initial reaction was "knee jerk" but we are still going to sell our house - we don't need this sort of hassle now or in the future. We now have one more year to determine the best course of action.

I also went to BKK imm office today. in less than 10 minutes i got my remainder 11 months added to my one month retirement visa that i got last week. i showed them my new letter from the bank proving my funds originated in the usa...and they read it...found my paperwork...added it to that and i was on my way. all of this the same for my wife. i didnt even take a number. went to the front 2 desks and did it.NO MENTION OF A MAP...NO MENTION ABOUT NEW RULES....all very friendly and all smiles.

HOWEVER...anyone needing more bodies to join a peaceful gathering/protest...COUNT ME IN. I have not heard back from CNBC/OR BLOOMBERG.

ALSO...PLEASE TRY TO KEEP THIS THREAD ABOUT RETIREMENT VISAS. lets all share what are visits are like.

trust me....you do need a bank letter proving your funds are from out of country. your bank book is not enough.

[samran]

Ten years now, never had a problem that didn't ultimately resolve itself here in Thailand.

at the risk of being labled a rose coloured glasses thai apologist, I tend to agree.

having said that, if people genuinely feel that this is a big deal, they should try and do something about it....but so far, there has been a lot of noise, but very little proposed action. Done properly, carefully I think a bunch of wise retirees with a few resources up their sleeves could no doubt work to protect what is rightfully theirs.

[tangchaatsameu]

Well originally I wasn't asking anything. Just stated the facts.

I'm not sure why you quoted me or what are you saying. Nobody's stopping you. So let me hear it, what are you talking about?

Have you read and understood samran's (a mod) last post?

I don't particularly wish to get banned, like the OP of the linked thread, for "spouting off [uSEFUL, PERTINENT, UNREFUTABLE, NON-DISPROVED] informations which would put Wiki to shame" so that's the last from me on this thread.

If you refer to post #551?.. then I will conclude you had nothing sensible to say in the first place.

The coin has two sides, and it's absolutely crucial to have this imm-emm comparison in the conversation, don't you think..

Please forgive me if I am interrupting this conversation. I apologize in advance for my ignorance of protocol in these forums. I just wanted to share my perspective that has been gleaned after years of headaches, red forehead days (from hitting my head against the wall repeatedly), and tears: Some Thais are ecstatic to have us and our money and others are disgusted by us and there is an ongoing tension between these two forces in Thailand, which results in swings of opinion and actions towards us foreigners. In general, they almost always will take the money but they really wish we could just deposit it and leave as soon as possible. Many Thais particularly enjoy it when we just wire it over without even stepping foot in the country. Still, the ideal foreigner is one who comes in, is awed by the food, mispronounces a couple of thai words over and over, makes the Thais laugh, overpays for all sorts of things here, and leaves thinking that Thailand is the best country in the world and Thais are the kindest people as they are SO friendly, especially after the "good hearted farang" overtips, overpays and continues to rave about how cheap everything is here. Many Thais are particularly annoyed when we learn their language and customs (only makes us more difficult to fleece) but do not show it because a high percentage of Thais believe that they lose a strategic advantage in negotiations and in relationships to the degree that they are straightforward, predictable and open. I find it hard to not take all this "personally" but the bottom line is that it is not, Thais are simply being themselves and they behave even worse towards each other, which is what they try to hide from foreigners for fear of disclosing their biggest secret and damaging the goose laying the golden eggs (that's us): that they are just as brutal, conniving, violent and self-serving as most other nationalities, but they are more skilled at hiding it from others. It is one of the most successful public relations schemes in history. Please understand that I am not saying that Thais are more self serving but simply better are managing the impressions of others. When Thais feel that life is good and they have money in their pocket they are more tolerant but when the economy takes a turn for the worse they start getting upset and they do not like what they see...rich foreigners coming in an boasting about all the baht and goodies and services that their pounds, dollars and euros can get for them. Moreover, they really don't like the "excessive" amounts of foreigners who come in to Thailand and act like they belong here. SO, they just want to make sure they keep us in our place every so often. Let's face it, there are already 60 over million thais in the country, why would they let us come and stay here if we could not be taken advantage of? Sure, there are some Thais who realize all the contributions that foreigners have made in this country but these are not the majority. The only reason they allowed some laws that help foreigners (owning condos up to 49% of a project, retirement visas, etc) is to be competitive with other countries that have started these practices but maybe it is working too well and bringing too many foreigners who come here and make this place TOO unthai so they yank our chain just to remind us not to get too comfortable. Just about the time a few of us start to make our exit, they change it again. It's a big game but the only way to play it without getting hurt is to understand rule number one of thai society: it's everyone out for him/herself but let's pretend we're all a big happy family. THAT's the difference, in many other countries there is no pretense but there are laws to try to keep us from taking too much advantage of each other. In thailand, it's ruthless "dog eat dog" but the rule says that all dogs must smile!!!

[terryp]

All the changes are for a reason…A Deterrent

Thailand has made it very clear since the onslaught of Thai Rak Thai, that Foreigners who wish to reside in Thailand are not wanted.

I have lived in Thailand for around 70% of my Life and it is very clear to Me that the time is drawing close to move on………..I am quite happy with that as they are sending the signal out subtly, giving Me some time to look at options and try them out at My leisure, not telling Me to get out in 24 hours.

All the speculation on this forum is crazy/…wake up realize the party is almost over and move on…let the Thais have their piece of paradise (LOL)……. I’ll soon find another

[Jingthing]

All the changes are for a reason…A Deterrent

Thailand has made it very clear since the onslaught of Thai Rak Thai, that Foreigners who wish to reside in Thailand are not wanted.

I have lived in Thailand for around 70% of my Life and it is very clear to Me that the time is drawing close to move on………..I am quite happy with that as they are sending the signal out subtly, giving Me some time to look at options and try them out at My leisure, not telling Me to get out in 24 hours.

All the speculation on this forum is crazy/…wake up realize the party is almost over and move on…let the Thais have their piece of paradise (LOL)……. I’ll soon find another

You could be right but it could also be a cyclical thing that swings back in the other direction. I agree with you about a clear trend. But trends can change.

[samran]

All the changes are for a reason…A Deterrent

let me challenge this in a devils advocate type of way. How about maybe assuming that the changes were made in the interests in fairness and equity?

While I disagree with the lack of grandfathering in the rules, why should two retired foreigners get in on a two for the price of one deal which essentially the 'old' rules allowed? Under the old rules as I understand it, two married foreigners could on a combined income of 800K (ie 400K each essentially) while an individual applying had to stump up the entire amount himself....IS this fair?

Anyway, while I don't agree with what has happened, maybe it is more productive to explore the possible motives of why things happened...that don't involve people ending up accusing people of xenaphobia etc etc. Understanding the motives allows a higher chance of redress...if that is what you are looking for.

[dkstoney]

Why do you think people are leaving England in mad rushes? Do you think Thailand wants a growing population of people who won't assimilate and choose bread over rice?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news

Deep down inside all you peace-loving, hug-your-black-friend, egalitarian, Cartesian common sense immigrants are just as racist as any of them. It's an ongoing war for cultural sovereignty and preservation. The only difference between us and them is that they're not running away because of political correctness based on a bunch of idealistic jargon. Does anyone out there really believe that "All men are created equal"? Come on. This group of visa riders are just casualties; collateral damage. No one back home reads the papers. Whatever hardship anyone endures here will be swept away in no time at all and the tourism trade will continue and the Thais will be happy that they can exist in their own land whilst controlling their domestic resources and all with no genetic or cultural pollution.

The good news is they may all develop hip dysplasia as was discussed in the Isaan forum concerning German Shepards.

[TakingAVacation]

The message is becoming loud and clear:

F A L A N G

G O

H O M E !

(time to put that condo up for sale...)

[IAMSOBAD]

ONE QUESTION? Sunbelt really dropped the ball after making their OP.

Why didnt Sunbelt send a lawyer to the Immigration office today and get a complete explanation of the NEW RULES? Since they reprted this was in effect as of Sept. 1,2007...wouldnt the officer in charge have all the details...even if the law hasnt been published in the Gazette? Just my opinion...I hope I dont get booted off the TV forum for being honest. ???

Edited September 3, 2007 by IAMSOBAD

[qualtrough]

One reader says correctly that Farang/Thai married couple are deemed to need only 40,000 baht income a month BETWEEN them.

I know loads of Thai/Thai families managing to survive on 5,000 (or less) - 10,000 baht a month

I am curious as to how my wife (Thai) and I (farang) would be expected to spend 40K baht per month upon retirement? I can certainly see the need the first year or so of retirement needing the funds, but only if I could find a company that would sell me a vehicle on credit with monthly payments. But soon enough the vehicle would be paid for. Then what am I spending money upon? We have a home that we built using cash, so no need for rent money. We prefer living in a rural area so the cost of living is for the most part food, drink, and transportation costs (gas). Perhaps I will have to get a home loan from the bank, invest the money elsewhere, and in effect repurchase my home. As it currently stands I will be forced to come up with some sort of scheme to scam the authorities into thinking I am spending 40k per month. But then on the other hand, retirement is still several years away and who knows what the laws will be in the future given the transitory nature of Thai governments and Thai laws. But as I noted in an earlier post, the trend of the thinking of the Bangkok elite does not bode well for us Farangs.

Johpa, PM Mobi. He can certainly advise you on ways to spend 40,000 Baht here.