No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[TAWP]

Well, 3 out 5 is done, the last one is gonna be a problem however...

[chinthee]

When Bogart said to Bergman in Casablanca: "The problems of a few expats in Thailand don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world,"

He was right. Don't expect any big help from any embassies, congressmen, MPs or whatever. As expats, you're on your own in the big world boys and girls. Once you leave mama's skirt, it's sink or swim.

[Jingthing]

When Bogart said to Bergman in Casablanca: "The problems of a few expats in Thailand don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world,"

He was right. Don't expect any big help from any embassies, congressmen, MPs or whatever. As expats, you're on your own in the big world boys and girls. Once you leave mama's skirt, it's sink or swim.

Yes, that is usually true as long as the numbers are small. On the other hand, looking at the huge number of retired American expats in Mexico and the issues of Mexican immigration into the US as well, there are cases where expats could be politically important.

[chinthee]

When Bogart said to Bergman in Casablanca: "The problems of a few expats in Thailand don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world,"

He was right. Don't expect any big help from any embassies, congressmen, MPs or whatever. As expats, you're on your own in the big world boys and girls. Once you leave mama's skirt, it's sink or swim.

Yes, that is usually true as long as the numbers are small. On the other hand, looking at the huge number of retired American expats in Mexico and the issues of Mexican immigration into the US as well, there are cases where expats could be politically important.

Yes, but that is also a border issue, national security and large numbers. Really folks, we're all just floating on a raft strung together with twine over here.

[Jingthing]

Yes, but that is also a border issue, national security and large numbers. Really folks, we're all just floating on a raft strung together with twine over here.

All I am implying is that Mexico could use the large American expat community as pawns if they get mad enough. Mexico needs many of their people to work in the US, if the US effectively stopped that, Mexico could retaliate against American expats by doing things like taking their houses away, changing the visa regs overnight, etc.

[chinthee]

Yes, but that is also a border issue, national security and large numbers. Really folks, we're all just floating on a raft strung together with twine over here.

All I am implying is that Mexico could use the large American expat community as pawns if they get mad enough. Mexico needs many of their people to work in the US, if the US effectively stopped that, Mexico could retaliate against American expats by doing things like taking their houses away, changing the visa regs overnight, etc.

The mutual stakes are too high in that game. It's not equivalent to what's happening here. Nobody has any stakes in helping expats. Nobody's paying attention, to be frank.

[Jingthing]

The mutual stakes are too high in that game. It's not equivalent to what's happening here. Nobody has any stakes in helping expats. Nobody's paying attention, to be frank.

Agreed 100%.

I will go even further. The US government has actively pressured some governments to actually greatly increase the requirements for American expats to fight drug money laundering. For example, Panama.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Sateev]

Just to avoid any confusion here - us retirees don't have a place of busisness.

If we did, we'd be in real trouble

Quite right, Mobi. I included the bit about maps to your office as an example of a sort of increased 'geographical awareness' required by Immiration. It applies, of course to Type 'O' or 'B' residents, with a work permit..

Sorry for the confusion.

Sateev

Edited September 2, 2007 by Sateev

[Sateev]

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a U.S. Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and, (iii) economic and status sanctions against Thailand.

Hi Tim,

You might want to examine the original post a little more closely, and slightly revise your letter.

The police order referred to is the OLD regulation, which spelled out the conditions under which wives of retirees were granted dependent status for purposes of extension of stay. The new police order, which we are all so concerned about, has NOT been published yet, and therefore has no number. It might do well to wait until something IS published to take the next step.

I believe this is why we haven't seen anything in the mainstream media yet: it is unofficial, and cannot be independently verified. Sunbelt apparently has some inside info, to which the media are not privy.

Sateev

[tijnebijn]

I think Sateev pointed it out correctly . Sunbelt makes us have a privilege to know this beforehand .

Its really a very good favor to us , so we can take precautions .

[greenway]

[When Bogart said to Bergman in Casablanca: "The problems of a few expats in Thailand don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world,"

He was right. Don't expect any big help from any embassies, congressmen, MPs or whatever. As expats, you're on your own in the big world boys and girls. Once you leave mama's skirt, it's sink or swim.

Yeah...

[PeaceBlondie]

At least for us Americans, our elected officials have literally hundreds of issues to consider, and the folks who answer the phones or open the emails and snail mails have a short list of less than 50 issues to enter and tally the concerns. Trust me, the travails of expatriate nationals having visa problems with a far-flung kingdom are not on their list. If you contribute over $50,000 to that politician's campaign fund, or employ several thousand people in his district, he'll hear you out. And then he'll say, "Excuse me? Thailand? Retirees? Can they even vote?"

Tomorrow and this coming week may see that the new immigration policy is not even gazzetted, or is rescinded shortly after it is announced, or it's simply never implemented. Mai bpen rai. What matters to me is that it woke me up to read the date on my passport, and alerted me that I have no permanency here. I'm honest enough to say "Shit, I never should have moved here; it's not too late to go back, at least one country from home."

[tim77]

Below is a copy of my email and letter which I have sent to the U.S. Embassy. You may wish to send a similar or an alternative communication to your Embassy.

Non-Thais are being advised of yet another capricious action against them by the Thai government. I understand that Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 will significantly and adversely affect Americans who have entered Thailand under Thailand's long standing Retirement Visa program. Details of this Police Order are set out in the following web site: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140252.

May I add my voice to the cry for the following: (i) warnings to be posted on the U.S. Embassy website; (ii) a U.S. Embassy inquiry and protest, as appropriate; and, (iii) economic and status sanctions against Thailand.

Hi Tim,

You might want to examine the original post a little more closely, and slightly revise your letter.

The police order referred to is the OLD regulation, which spelled out the conditions under which wives of retirees were granted dependent status for purposes of extension of stay. The new police order, which we are all so concerned about, has NOT been published yet, and therefore has no number. It might do well to wait until something IS published to take the next step.

I believe this is why we haven't seen anything in the mainstream media yet: it is unofficial, and cannot be independently verified. Sunbelt apparently has some inside info, to which the media are not privy.

Sateev

Yes . . . you are correct. I refered to the 2006 order and not to the expected 1 Sep 07 order.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

At least for us Americans, our elected officials have literally hundreds of issues to consider, and the folks who answer the phones or open the emails and snail mails have a short list of less than 50 issues to enter and tally the concerns. Trust me, the travails of expatriate nationals having visa problems with a far-flung kingdom are not on their list. If you contribute over $50,000 to that politician's campaign fund, or employ several thousand people in his district, he'll hear you out. And then he'll say, "Excuse me? Thailand? Retirees? Can they even vote?"

Tomorrow and this coming week may see that the new immigration policy is not even gazzetted, or is rescinded shortly after it is announced, or it's simply never implemented. Mai bpen rai. What matters to me is that it woke me up to read the date on my passport, and alerted me that I have no permanency here. I'm honest enough to say "Shit, I never should have moved here; it's not too late to go back, at least one country from home."

I have had a different experience with politicians. In the US I have worked with politicians in the course of being elected as representative of a professional group. The group had never been politically active before my election. We made the rounds and eventually found those who would listen. Ulitmately a piece of national legislation changed. Our small group educated other like groups with better access and influence. They in turn carried the fight to it's conclusion. We were opposed by powerful big business interests yet we prevailed. In another instance many years later I was involved with a group of immigrants connected with a business in the US. This time these people could not vote. Again, I followed the same procedure. We made beaucoup faxes requesting an audience. In the end we traveled to Washington and met with several members of Congress who wanted to hear what we had to say. While is greatly helps to have $50,000 to dontate, there are members of congress who will want to hear what is said and will work to help. It takes effort to find them though. Unfortunately, most people won't make the effort or quit after only a few attempts. If I end up bailing here, I will be making the rounds in Washington with politicians and with like minded groups again, educating them about what is going on here. As it is, I will be snail mailing letters. Emails from people with addresses not in the congressman's district are automatically dumped by the system. Faxes and snail mail aren't. And believe it or not, a few are concerned with the plight of Americans living abroad. With the 2006 change in Congress that number likely mulitplied.

Edited September 2, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Mic]

So, if that is correct, why do they have a visa specifically for retirement purposes?? If that was the case, they could be like Singapore - does not have any retirement visa for foreigners. But Thailand does.

I think that is a matter of different opinions of the elements in power. Also the retirement regs might just be the remnant of a former gov. attitude.

Arrogance is an attribute which is thoroughly human.

[LA Don]

Seems like Thailand is extending their pursuit of "quality tourists" to include a preference for "quality retirees". I don't agree with it, but it is their country. I do know that 90% of Thai people would be denied even a tourist visa to visit the US for one day, let alone stay an entire year. And they would be charged 3500 baht plus other fees for the privelege of being denied. So who am I to complain?

Sorry, but here I go again: comparing Thailand to the US does not compute. Compare it instead to countries at similar economic levels that do indeed warmly welcome retired expats. We all know very well why it is so hard for Thais to travel to the US. It is because a huge percentage have been proven to overstay illegally and work illegally. Retired western expats mostly do not overstay illegally nor do they work illegally in great numbers.

If I might add to the comments - there are over 250,000 Thai living in Los Angeles, CA. Maybe they are part of the the other 10%.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Seems like Thailand is extending their pursuit of "quality tourists" to include a preference for "quality retirees". I don't agree with it, but it is their country. I do know that 90% of Thai people would be denied even a tourist visa to visit the US for one day, let alone stay an entire year. And they would be charged 3500 baht plus other fees for the privelege of being denied. So who am I to complain?

Sorry, but here I go again: comparing Thailand to the US does not compute. Compare it instead to countries at similar economic levels that do indeed warmly welcome retired expats. We all know very well why it is so hard for Thais to travel to the US. It is because a huge percentage have been proven to overstay illegally and work illegally. Retired western expats mostly do not overstay illegally nor do they work illegally in great numbers.

If I might add to the comments - there are over 250,000 Thai living in Los Angeles, CA. Maybe they are part of the the other 10%.

Don't forget Chicago and New York, two other places I am aware of with large Thai populations. Then of course there are the multiple Thai owned businsses particularly restaurants in every major city in the US. I dare say there are more Thais living and working in the US than there are Americans living and working in Thailand. And unlike the American small businesses owner in Thailand, Thais are more likely to send large sums of money home.

Edited September 2, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[tim77]

At least for us Americans, our elected officials have literally hundreds of issues to consider, and the folks who answer the phones or open the emails and snail mails have a short list of less than 50 issues to enter and tally the concerns. Trust me, the travails of expatriate nationals having visa problems with a far-flung kingdom are not on their list. If you contribute over $50,000 to that politician's campaign fund, or employ several thousand people in his district, he'll hear you out. And then he'll say, "Excuse me? Thailand? Retirees? Can they even vote?"

Tomorrow and this coming week may see that the new immigration policy is not even gazzetted, or is rescinded shortly after it is announced, or it's simply never implemented. Mai bpen rai. What matters to me is that it woke me up to read the date on my passport, and alerted me that I have no permanency here. I'm honest enough to say "Shit, I never should have moved here; it's not too late to go back, at least one country from home."

I have had a different experience with politicians. In the US I have worked with politicians in the course of being elected as representative of a professional group. The group had never been politically active before my election. We made the rounds and eventually found those who would listen. Ulitmately a piece of national legislation changed. Our small group educated other like groups with better access and influence. They in turn carried the fight to it's conclusion. We were opposed by powerful big business interests yet we prevailed. In another instance many years later I was involved with a group of immigrants connected with a business in the US. This time these people could not vote. Again, I followed the same procedure. We made beaucoup faxes requesting an audience. In the end we traveled to Washington and met with several members of Congress who wanted to hear what we had to say. While is greatly helps to have $50,000 to dontate, there are members of congress who will want to hear what is said and will work to help. It takes effort to find them though. Unfortunately, most people won't make the effort or quit after only a few attempts. If I end up bailing here, I will be making the rounds in Washington with politicians and with like minded groups again, educating them about what is going on here. As it is, I will be snail mailing letters. Emails from people with addresses not in the congressman's district are automatically dumped by the system. Faxes and snail mail aren't. And believe it or not, a few are concerned with the plight of Americans living abroad. With the 2006 change in Congress that number likely mulitplied.

I wonder if groups like AARP might be able to supply some contact details of persons who might be interested. I will be following up with them. It has been my understanding for some time that they are a superb lobbying organization.

[JimGant]

Quite right, Mobi. I included the bit about maps to your office as an example of a sort of increased 'geographical awareness' required by Immiration. It applies, of course to Type 'O' or 'B' residents, with a work permit..

The requirement for a map to your place of business is not a new requirement. See para 7.1 of Police Order 606/2549, found pinned at the top of this forum.

And while fumbling around in this Police Order, look at para. 7.10. Here's an example of dependents of a sponsor who holds a one-year extension of stay (in this case, a student sponsor, parent dependents) being required to have "500,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 3 months." So, the idea of having dependents showing fanancial means is not a new one.

Why the rush now to tackle retiree dependents? Someone must have detected an inflood of dirt poor dependents -- and I suspect the sponsor of these dependents was Asian, not Western (but look who's getting snagged). So, to stop this lowering of per capita income in the foreign retiree/dependent communities, the rush to change the law -- with no safeguards for all the unwashed who got through.

but i still can't believe that a wife who does not qualify age wise for the retiree status will have to do visa runs. for once it turns out that i am lucky that my old lady is older than 50.

This is the real quirk. The original para 7.19 says nothing about the age of the retiree's wife. Ok, it's probably fair (and precedented, as pointed out) to now require dependents of retirees to demonstrate financial means (it would be better for the sponsor's ante to be upped for each dependent, which would accomodate children easier; doubling this ante to cover a wife is a little over the top, however.) But to now require your spouse to be over 50?! Are they really trying to ban 20-year old blond trophy wives -- when they know the beer-bellied sponsor has got to be rolling in dough to win the trophy? And the 49 year old missus -- why force her to do border runs. Besides, she's no longer hatching dependents.....

Which leads to either: this age requirement being a mistake (to be rectified in the final publication); or to Grandpa Kim, with his 4 fertile wives and 25 children, nieces, nephews, godchildren, whatever. Requiring an age 50 cut-off certainly would affect the fertility problem.

And banning children (or parents) from dependent extensions totally (as Sunbelt's report is currently worded) seems overly drastic. Just require the sponsor to meet higher financial goals for each dependent (as I beleve Dr Naam reported is Brazil's policy).

Anyway, currently a lot of smoke..........

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

You may well find some at AARP interested in what you have to say. In my experience keep looking until you find some.

[roego]

Hi, I find all of this difficult to understand. I have been thinking about buying a modest unit 2,000,000B. I am over 60 but I am now and have been a bit unsettled for a while at the , well I think entitled to say racist attitude, the New government seems to be adopting.

Whilst in the overall economy it may not show up for a while I would think many of the smaller businesses would notice a drop off. And surely as the word spreads amongst unit dwellers sales must drop surely?

I do not understand, Malaysia just about bending over backwards to get foreigners to live there and Thailand?

gednuinely for now they have lost me.

[tim77]

LA may not have 250,000 Thais . . . From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thai Town is a neighborhood of Los Angeles centered along Hollywood Boulevard between Normandie Avenue and Western Avenue in Hollywood. The neighborhood was designated by the City Council in 2000. It is currently about 1 mile long and growing. The area contains many Thai restaurants and shops. There are also many Armenians living in the area, which is accordingly also referred to as Little Armenia. The boundaries between Thai Town and Little Armenia are ambiguous and fluid. The area is served by the Metro Red Line at the Hollywood/Western station.

Los Angeles has the largest Thai population outside of Thailand. Roughly 80,000 of California's estimated 120,000 Thai Americans live in Los Angeles.[1] It is also home to the world's first and only Thai Town. In 2002 there was an estimated 80,000 Thai immigrants living in Los Angeles. Thai Chinese are also included in the population. Because of this, Los Angeles is sometimes referred to as Thailand's 77th province. Both Bangkok (Thailand's capital) and Los Angeles are known as the City of Angels.

In mid-April, Thai Town celebrates Songkran, the Thai New Year, by closing off Hollywood Boulevard within its boundaries, and setting up food stands and entertainment in the street.

[Jingthing]

Hi, I find all of this difficult to understand. I have been thinking about buying a modest unit 2,000,000B. I am over 60 but I am now and have been a bit unsettled for a while at the , well I think entitled to say racist attitude, the New government seems to be adopting.

Whilst in the overall economy it may not show up for a while I would think many of the smaller businesses would notice a drop off. And surely as the word spreads amongst unit dwellers sales must drop surely?

I do not understand, Malaysia just about bending over backwards to get foreigners to live there and Thailand?

gednuinely for now they have lost me.

Quite right, I am afraid.

The market for condos for prospective retirees is in danger for sure. Why buy when your are so uncertain of the ability to stay long term?

[PIKE]

My parents are in their early 70s and would like to retire in thailand to be with myself and my family,they have a combined pension of around 80,000baht plus savings,with these changes do they now have to open seperate bank accounts and deposit the sum of 800,000 in each and the 2 pension funds deposited into those accounts aswell,or can they continue to use there joint account they opened a few years ago.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[otton]

The gent, I am very disappointed by this post of yours.

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails.

You and the others replying along these lines seem to have lost touch with the reality that this is a country where the average wage is still Baht 7700 (as per the latest BOI figures realeased for Q1 2007)...

Third world countries with 3rd world infrastructures, 3rd world police force, 3rd world judicial system, 3rd world rule of law and 3rd world safety and protection of civil and human rights aren't bound to attract the richest of the rich but mostly people looking to get more bang for their bucks. The kind of folks affected by these latest changes weren't undecided between Thailand and Florida but most likely between Thailand and some other "poor" SEA or LAT-AM country. They are here to enjoy a better lifestyle than the one they can afford in their homecountry thanks to the lower cost of life Thailand and other developing countries offer (and, in the process, are contributing a great deal to their host country, as the retirement visas offered by many developing countries and not offered by most developed ones I guess kind of prove...).

Besides, if the dependant is under 50yo even doubling the bank deposit to 1,6 million Baht isn't going to help much...

Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

You have forgot to address the 3 real key issues which this piece of news raises here:

1. the "urgency" they feel in starting to enforce these new immigration regs which haven't even been published yet

2. the no warning

3. the no grandfathering

BTW, regarding the latter one, I would like to bring everyone's attention on the fact that this is not the first time which that is happened.

Has everyone already forgot that the "supporting Thai children" extension of stay permit was scrapped last year with no grandfathering?

And what about the rumours of the abolition of the grandfathering for those getting Marriage extension od stay permits based on 400k in the bank?!? Some have reported of being ALREADY denied being grandfathered!

The gent, may I ask you which visa are you on? It would be fun to speculate when your turn will come

N.B. this new rules don't affect me, it's the underlying motives behind all these changes which do...

[Jingthing]

Regarding the requirement that a spouse needs to be 50. I predict if the change does stand, the age requirement will stand as well. That is because the retirement extension itself requires you to be age 50. It seems to me they would have to lower the age for all retirement extenders to lower it for this subset of them, and they probably won't.

Even though this ruling doesn't impact me, I continue to be disgusted at the short notice of it and the lack of grandfathering. The very least they could do is offer a grace period for those in the middle of this to comply (as in the 3 month seasoning rule, for those using this, impossible to comply).

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

My parents are in their early 70s and would like to retire in thailand to be with myself and my family,they have a combined pension of around 80,000baht plus savings,with these changes do they now have to open seperate bank accounts and deposit the sum of 800,000 in each and the 2 pension funds deposited into those accounts aswell,or can they continue to use there joint account they opened a few years ago.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Separate accounts! Sunbelt has addressed this already.

[Jingthing]

BTW, regarding the latter one, I would like to bring everyone's attention on the fact that this is not the first time which that is happened.

Has everyone already forgot that the "supporting Thai children" extension of stay permit was scrapped last year with no grandfathering?

And what about the rumours of the abolition of the grandfathering for those getting Marriage extension od stay permits based on 400k in the bank?!? Some have reported of being ALREADY denied being grandfathered!

I agree. Not the first time. The precedent and trend is there for all to see.

Also remember the sudden ruling on the 3 month money seasoning rule. This caught some people right in the middle of preparing for their applications, making it impossible to comply.

It really shows a lack of compassion, and I don't think it is stupidity. I think they are smart enough to fully realize the problems they are causing people.

BTW, I totally agree with the poster who said most people retire to Thailand for the bang for the buck, and also to be able to retire earlier or retire at all. Yes, there will be some very wealthy people who retire here, but most of those people will pick a higher class country, one with a stable government, one which offers them investment stability, and one which offers a clean environment and safe roads, etc.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

LA may not have 250,000 Thais . . . From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thai Town is a neighborhood of Los Angeles centered along Hollywood Boulevard between Normandie Avenue and Western Avenue in Hollywood. The neighborhood was designated by the City Council in 2000. It is currently about 1 mile long and growing. The area contains many Thai restaurants and shops. There are also many Armenians living in the area, which is accordingly also referred to as Little Armenia. The boundaries between Thai Town and Little Armenia are ambiguous and fluid. The area is served by the Metro Red Line at the Hollywood/Western station.

Los Angeles has the largest Thai population outside of Thailand. Roughly 80,000 of California's estimated 120,000 Thai Americans live in Los Angeles.[1] It is also home to the world's first and only Thai Town. In 2002 there was an estimated 80,000 Thai immigrants living in Los Angeles. Thai Chinese are also included in the population. Because of this, Los Angeles is sometimes referred to as Thailand's 77th province. Both Bangkok (Thailand's capital) and Los Angeles are known as the City of Angels.

In mid-April, Thai Town celebrates Songkran, the Thai New Year, by closing off Hollywood Boulevard within its boundaries, and setting up food stands and entertainment in the street.

The information in the article is dated 2002. Those immigrants have likely sponsored other immigrants which has been the experience with other immigrant groups. Then there are the illegal aliens that don't appear in any survey. Under Thaksin, Thais were being encouraged to immigrate and open businesses abroad so the numbers have likely changed significantly.

[PeaceBlondie]

My partner is almost telepathic. He just asked, "So, are you going to have to move back to Mexico?" I explained how our 80 year old friend is likely to infuriate his local immigration officer any year now, and find himself on the next flight to New York City. I explained that immigration policy is now decided arbitrarily by four star generals in ivory towers who change policy on a whim or a fortune teller, and that policy is enforced by local officers whose decision is final. My partner can almost smell the tacos.