No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[Xangsamhua]

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one.

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses under 50?

Edited September 2, 2007 by Xangsamhua

[Lite Beer]

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one.

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses uner 50?

Spouses, mothers , fathers, kids.

[otton]

quoting Greg from another recent thread:

Possible Amendments:They are re-considering the criteria for applicants supporting a Thai child and may allow a foreign parent UNDER 50 to apply. Not confirmed.

Not confirmed yet... but is this not another example of how immigration policy is being eased for those who are integrating into Thai society? (ie marrying, having children etc).

Just take a big step back and look at the visa/immigration policy changes over the past year. For me, the message is becoming clearer.

Simon, you are writing a lot of nonsense with this "Thaisanization" theory...

Reintroducing Supporting Thai children Extension Of Stay Permits (and we have yet to see IF and under which terms) would just mean taking a step back not a step forward since this is something which ALREADY existed and which THEY THEMSELVES SCRAPPED LAST YEAR (AND WITH NO GRANDFATHERING PROVISO)!

Moreover, if this theory of "Thaisanization" and integration in the Thai social fabric had any value they would FAVOR working folks and, above all, young foreign/Thai couples and do things like requiring Thai language knowledge and knowledge of Thai history/culture, ease PR and citizenship requirements for spouses and parents of Thai citizens and allow young foreign/Thai couples (especially the ones with children) to at least jointly own a small piece of land and their own home allowing the foreigner to remain in Thailand and raise there his half Thai children in case anything happens to his/her Thai spouse. NOTHING of this is happening and, as things stand now, older single retirees who are the ones with less demonstrable commitments to Thailand of them all still have the easiest time amongst all of the foreigners including the much committed and "Thaisanized" ones like the ones just mentioned.

Show 800k in the bank and here is your 1 year extension.

I bet married men, working folks, parents of Thai children, young retirees (who are the ones in all probability economically benefitting Thailand the most) etc ALL would love to have something like that as an option and forget all the crazy requirements and hoops they have now to jump through to get (if it's possible at all) their visas/extensions...

[jumnien]

otton,

are you young?

[JimGant]

Thailand's immi regs say that the 65k/month must be from govt pensions or other "embassy certifiable incomes" (which means investment and rental incomes don't qualify, ask your embassy).

Where did you find the "embassy certifiable incomes?" The Thai reg (Police Report 606/2549, para 7.21) says: "Govt Pensions, interest, dividends, etc." To me, that "etc" covers a large area, to include rental income (British Embassy even allows it to be gross rental income); and, obviously investment income is included under "interest, dividends."

And, the US affirmation statement says: "He affirms that he receives in amount of US$__ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

So, with "etc" and "other sources," I would think you could be very creative -- and legitimate -- in arriving at a cash flow that equates to 65,000 baht/mo. Have your sister, brother, friend, whatever gift you the required amount (with a notarized document as proof, should such be asked for). I believe gift amounts, for tax free purposes, are now $22,000 (24?) per person. Then, give the money back, with interest -- but no notarization required You could do this every year, if needed, right before Embassy letter day -- until your sister, brother, friend whatever no longer were amused.

However, I'm serious. The wording (in the Yank affirmation) says "every month," but this certainly is not meant to punish those who receive uneven cash flows; so dividing annual amounts by 12 seems kosher (and I doubt the subject would even come up). And if the rumor about not needing annual income certifications is true -- once MFA certifies the original -- selling investments (and using principal towards that 65,000) would also work (but, on an annual basis, could be troublesome).

Anyway, for those on the border line of new Immigration money requirements, there are ways to navigate.

[simon43]

Otton - I think many of the things you mention, (such as knowledge of Thai language/culture) will come, but Rome wasn't built in a day. I do not think that non-Thais will ever be allowed to own land, (except for the existing options).

The citizenship requirements were eased only this week, as reported on this forum.

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

Simon

[Xangsamhua]

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one.

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses uner 50?

Spouses, mothers , fathers, kids.

As long as they're under 50?

[Jingthing]

Otton - I think many of the things you mention, (such as knowledge of Thai language/culture) will come, but Rome wasn't built in a day. I do not think that non-Thais will ever be allowed to own land, (except for the existing options).

The citizenship requirements were eased only this week, as reported on this forum.

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

Simon

Frankly, I don't think you have made a very convincing argument about this so called Thai assimilation drive and I don't think there are many here who would agree with you. We shall see.

[JetsetBkk]

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses under 50?

Of course, Thai spouses - of any age - don't need a visa to stay in their own country.

[tijnebijn]

Otton - I think many of the things you mention, (such as knowledge of Thai language/culture) will come, but Rome wasn't built in a day. I do not think that non-Thais will ever be allowed to own land, (except for the existing options).

The citizenship requirements were eased only this week, as reported on this forum.

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

Simon

Frankly, I don't think you have made a very convincing argument about this so called Thai assimilation drive and I don't think there are many here who would agree with you. We shall see.

I am not agreeing either .

Things are not allways how they seem to be . So do not walk that road .

[Lite Beer]

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one.

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses uner 50?

Spouses, mothers , fathers, kids.

As long as they're under 50?

Any age

[JetsetBkk]

Which leads to either: this age requirement being a mistake (to be rectified in the final publication);

Have Sunbelt given a link to the original Thai version of this change? If not, can they post the Thai version that they must have in their possession and let others interpret it?

[JetsetBkk]

Tomorrow and this coming week may see that the new immigration policy is not even gazzetted, or is rescinded shortly after it is announced, or it's simply never implemented.

lopburi3 said it already had been:

The Immigration website is almost a year out of date for most items. From reports here of people not being able to obtain dependent extension of stay from Bangkok last week it appears to have been implemented even earlier than September 1 by some officers.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1512147

[lopburi3]

It has not been published as law yet - that should happen in the next 10 days according to Sunbelt.

[otton]

Where did you find the "embassy certifiable incomes?" The Thai reg (Police Report 606/2549, para 7.21) says: "Govt Pensions, interest, dividends, etc." To me, that "etc" covers a large area, to include rental income (British Embassy even allows it to be gross rental income); and, obviously investment income is included under "interest, dividends."

And, the US affirmation statement says: "He affirms that he receives in amount of US$__ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

So, with "etc" and "other sources," I would think you could be very creative -- and legitimate -- in arriving at a cash flow that equates to 65,000 baht/mo. Have your sister, brother, friend, whatever gift you the required amount (with a notarized document as proof, should such be asked for). I believe gift amounts, for tax free purposes, are now $22,000 (24?) per person. Then, give the money back, with interest -- but no notarization required You could do this every year, if needed, right before Embassy letter day -- until your sister, brother, friend whatever no longer were amused.

However, I'm serious. The wording (in the Yank affirmation) says "every month," but this certainly is not meant to punish those who receive uneven cash flows; so dividing annual amounts by 12 seems kosher (and I doubt the subject would even come up). And if the rumor about not needing annual income certifications is true -- once MFA certifies the original -- selling investments (and using principal towards that 65,000) would also work (but, on an annual basis, could be troublesome).

Anyway, for those on the border line of new Immigration money requirements, there are ways to navigate.

You are just reporting the wording in the Nov 2004 notice, the Thai Immigration's actual requirements are for the income to be certified by your Embassy.

Ask anyone on a "retirement visa" or ask the OP.

And ask the OP if any of his clients have managed to get certification from their Embassies of rental or investment incomes, let alone gifts! Some Embassies won't certify even private pensions!

As I wrote, at the moment they (most of them...) seem to be accepting almost anything with an Embassy stamp on (i.e. affidavits where YOU state that you are getting a 65000 baht/month income) and this is just the perfect next "enforcement of existing laws"...

[Xangsamhua]

What is being said here is if your falang wife is under 50 then she has to go it alone with her visa arrangements so if she previously lived here with her retired over 50 husband then the likely route for her is to get a non im 1 year visa meaning that every year she has to go outside and get one.

I'm just catching up with all this and am not sure if I've missed something. Does the independent assessment only apply to non-Thai spouses uner 50?

Spouses, mothers , fathers, kids.

As long as they're under 50?

Any age

Thank you.

[IAMSOBAD]

lets all contact the people who worked on tsunami relief and get their help. they are rich and powerful people who must have some strong connections with the thai government. what about the red cross? or amnesty international? CNN? BBC? Star News? Trust me the press is powerful. I want to see the General who made this order explain himself on television like the BOT fool had to do after some of his mistakes.

i just talked on the phone to my friend at immigration and found out this new rule has been told to the staff in Bangkok.

they did tell me that they also find it to be very very crazy. they hinted next week will be very tough on both sides of the desks. they did tell me that dependent children could get education visas. so the main problem is for the wife. she needs to be over 50 with 800,000 in the bank or major problems will arise.

[otton]

N.B. These are the informations I got from law firms like Sunbelt regarding married folks under 50 and I understand it applies to retired folks as well.

Reading Sunbelt's website it seems so anyway.

Edited September 2, 2007 by otton

[otton]

Otton - I think many of the things you mention, (such as knowledge of Thai language/culture) will come

In other words, there is NOTHING in the current immigration laws and regulations really supporting your theory.

As things stand now, the least (apparent) "Thaisanized" and "Thaisanizable" foreigners, old single retirees, have the easiest time of them all.

The citizenship requirements were eased only this week, as reported on this forum.

Not really, they have shortened the wait and that's all. If they follow it through, there will be a short lived peak of applications and then they will revert back more or less to their previous pace.

PR requirements are the real show stopper and PR is still a prerequisite for citizenship and it's still as tough to get as ever.

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

And that's something we agree on...

[monkeyclub]

Wonder what would happen if the British, German, US imigratons would suddenly amend the rules for Thai's to match the rules here exactly including land ownership - what an outcry there would be in the Thai press about the hundreds of thousands of Thais who are being descriminated against, living in those countries - having lived with my Thai family in Europe, there was no problem obtaining a permanent residence for the wife - back here since some years I can't help but feeling any future here threatened by a gouvernment that seems to becoming more and more hostile towards foreigners, even those who live here honestly.

Isn't it about time our foreign ministries/embassies start interveening against all this?

One should always keep in mind, there are now more Thai's living in Europe and the US than foreigners living in Thailand and those Thai's enjoy all the freedom of our countries while we are being screwed here!

I agree with this and it also makes my cold blood boil. Double standards is the polite version.

[Jingthing]

For single retirees, I personally think that things will get tougher for them

And that's something we agree on...

Excuse me, but with this new act, they are now failing to recognize any special benefits for married retirees. So now everyone on a retirement visa is to be treated the same. As single individuals to sink or swim on their own applications. So if you believe that and I tend to agree, you would more accurately say tougher for ALL retirees.

They can do what they want. It all seems to me that it is still all about the money. They want to push up the "quality" of retirees and the only way they can think to do that is money standards. However, they are really pushing it already. For example, if they were to double or triple the money requirements, when you add in the complete lack of security offered (one year at a time) this would mean a huge exodus of retirees. Thailand is already not competing well with many similar countries offering retirement visas. I think they have a higher opinion of their "product" than is reasonable already. I think there is evidence they still want retired expats, they could care less if you speak Thai, but they want them to be richer. They also know if they push too hard too fast they will chase away too many and I still don't think there is evidence they want to do that either. So expect small tweaks to continue to move towards their goals. Expect this process to be clumsy, messy, and maybe resulting in your own departure.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[Sateev]

Simon, you are writing a lot of nonsense with this "Thaisanization" theory...

Agreed.

I do not think an MA in Thai Studies will be the next Jatukam amulet for protection against the vagaries of the Thai immigration authorities. All the rationalization and justification, after the fact, will just not make it so.

Strangely, though, I have a theory that supports 'Thai-a-nization' as a good idea.

The US, in the Ellis Island era, experienced massive immigration from eastern Europe, Ireland, Italy, etc. But those immigrants went to the US desiring to become American. They met with tremendous resistance by the forces of racism, and previous entitlement, but those who persevered went on to become a part of what was once the American Dream.

Now, immigrants to America want the right to retain their own culture, derive benefits from the American economy and infrastructure, but never really become Americans. This doesn't even speak for the ones, like many Thais, who go to the US for the sole purpose of accumulating enough wealth to return to their own country and live well.

Is this a good thing for the US?

I doubt it, and it is already quite plain that the US is no longer a melting pot. It is a mosaic, for better or for worse. If Americanized, self interest would be at least somewhat tempered by nationalism and love of country, as it was prior to the mid-20th century.

If I were Thai, and idealistic (hmmm..), I would welcome to my country, anybody who wanted to truly become Thai. So far, we are pretty close, eh?

The problem is that, in the end, Thailand is NOT being run by idealistic, patriotic men and women, who want to see the country become the Asian tiger it was so poised to become in 1997. It is being run by people who know where their bread is buttered, and don't want anything to threaten their positions. No EU election monitoring. No Western business ethics. No elimination of the corrupt system they can manipulate so well.

Add to the mix the deep and abiding hatred and mistrust of other ethnicities, and then tell me: do you really think they will welcome farangs as brother Thais if they can recite a bit about King Naresuan? Or read and actually get the tones right?

For any such Thai-a-nization to occur, there would have to be a lot more than cheap food, quaint villages, and available women to offer. Is there freedom to pursue wealth for the average, let alone a 'Thai-a-nized' farang Thai? Is their umpteenth constitution built on a comparable cornerstone to the US Bill of Rights?

Sorry. I do not mean to denigrate, and there IS much to love here, but the world is not dazzled. A few farangs, from small, but diverse demographics find it a nice place to play and/or retire. It ain't Ancient Greece.

I will say this: speaking Thai, and knowing a little about history will amuse many Thais. Some may approve, and some may snicker, but none will call you brother and mean it. You are performing tricks. Still, it IS a good thing to know something about the culture in which you live. If you know enough, you may get beyond the superficial, and grow to love it, as some already do. Parenthetically, I doubt they will soon restrict the non-O religious visa, so you can always 'buat', and REALLY be able to say that you walk-the-walk...

We are, at present, guests who are in danger of wearing out their welcome. Whole classes of people have been thrown into turmoil, without notice, and without so much as a 'sorry'. Don't think you can expect much better, even if you do know about Lanna, or 17th century Thai foreign affairs. Remember what happened to Phaulkon.

Thailand is for Thais. Indeed.

Sateev

[otton]

Excuse me, but with this new act, they are now failing to recognize any special benefits for married retirees. So now everyone on a retirement visa is to be treated the same. As single individuals to sink or swim on their own applications. So if you believe that, you would more accurately say tougher for ALL retirees.

What they have really just done is to equate retiress married to foreigners to single retirees.

Since they have effectively canceled ANY real long term visa for under 50 single guys (they are now just left with tricks and loopholes like ED visas, back-t-back TVs etc) there is the real possibility that the next step will be toughening the requirements for retirees not married to Thais...

After all, if they were just after the money they wouldn't be trying so "desperately" to keep out the biggest spenders of them all, wealthy single under 50 foreigners nor would they be trying to keep out under 50 foreigners supporting Thai spouses and Thai children and wealthy enough to not need to work...

[JetsetBkk]

It has not been published as law yet - that should happen in the next 10 days according to Sunbelt.

Thanks LB3. It would be nice if Sunbelt gave more details though - like where/who they got this info from, written or verbal, in Thai or whatever language, etc.

[simon43]

Remember what happened to Phaulkon

[\quote]

Indeed I do. But Phaulkon was greedy for his own power, and suffered the consequences. I'm talking about understanding Thai culture and trying to integrate into Thai society, not take it over!

Anyway, it seems that I am standing alone in my views. Let's see what happens in the future.

Simon

[otton]

P.S. Just to clarify, they have been toughening the requirements (or outright cancelling the long stay possibility) for ALL across the board, what I meant to say is that folks not related to Thai citizens are much easier targets and have suffered (and are going to suffer) the most.

Edited September 2, 2007 by otton

[Sunbelt Asia]

It has not been published as law yet - that should happen in the next 10 days according to Sunbelt.

Thanks LB3. It would be nice if Sunbelt gave more details though - like where/who they got this info from, written or verbal, in Thai or whatever language, etc.

Has not been published yet in the Royal Thai Government Gazette but the order was signed and dated on Sept 1st. Many of our legal staff are at Immigration everyday and was told of this new order on Friday.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sateev]

Remember what happened to Phaulkon

Indeed I do. But Phaulkon was greedy for his own power, and suffered the consequences. I'm talking about understanding Thai culture and trying to integrate into Thai society, not take it over!

Anyway, it seems that I am standing alone in my views. Let's see what happens in the future.

Simon

By the way, congrats on undertaking the MA at Chula. If I had the time/money I would do the same - although NOT for the same apparent reason

Good luck.

Best,

Sateev

[Jingthing]

After all, if they were just after the money they wouldn't be trying so "desperately" to keep out the biggest spenders of them all, wealthy single under 50 foreigners .

That is very doubtful. I assume the reason for that is the fear that younger "retirees" would work illegally. Most countries in the world that have retirement visas also have age requirements. Thats logical too, because most require pensions, and most people with pensions don't get them until an older age. Thailand isn't actually very different than many other countries in this program, excepting not offering long term security, and offering the option to those without pension (more common for countries to offer an investment income option if they offer it at all).

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[JetsetBkk]

It has not been published as law yet - that should happen in the next 10 days according to Sunbelt.

Thanks LB3. It would be nice if Sunbelt gave more details though - like where/who they got this info from, written or verbal, in Thai or whatever language, etc.

Has not been published yet in the Royal Thai Government Gazette but the order was signed and dated on Sept 1st. Many of our legal staff are at Immigration everyday and was told of this new order on Friday.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thank you - much appreciated.