Second Class Citizens

[intumult]

2nd Class??

I spend at least 9 months a year here. Have been forcibly retired since 1996.

I go to a small shop, for the first time, to buy something and the shopkeeper positively beams at me and wants to shake my hand.

Next time I go - after a couple of weeks - he remembers exactly what I bought last time and offers me the same again.

There is a computer shop near me that I used for internet. The rate is 15 Baht for 1 hour. I am there for 20 minutes and am charged 5 Baht.

At the same computer shop I buy Iced coffee. They do not want any money for it. I insist - politely - and pay.

I need a copy of 'X' computer prog and I get it at normal rates and they are very helpful.

Where I live, the 'Grandfather' and all the staff treat me with respect.

I take the odd coffee down for the night security guard. We often sit and chat - with difficulty. Others come along, generally Thais, and I am offered beer, whiskey and even asked if I want to go to a pub/club with them.

Last night I go to a restaurant and one of the musicians makes a point of stopping by as he goes to his next job and all he wants to do is shake my hand.

When I recently took a Thai and her son fishing for the first time, people were only too willing to help and give advice.

The list of positive experiences could go on and on.

Am I rich? Do I drive a flash motor? H_ll NO!!

I drive a 10 year old Toyota pick up.

I buy ?Kow pat Gai? for 30 Baht.

Often enough I go the same places many Thais go for food, restaurants, music and more. I am always made to feel welcome.

So.....

I cannot buy land here. I cannot get this and that. I might never be allowed citizenship. I have to apply for visas to come and stay. Big deal!

This is Thailand. It is their land. Their country. They are poor - financially - by many standards. If they do not want us 'Farang' to have a greater role in their society, that is fine by me.

Overall I am content here. I do my best to learn some Thai. I smile at the people and they smile back. I get invited places by Thais. Also try my best not to be a 'flash git' - hard thing to do in the motor I drive LOL.

Yes, I have problems here at times. Sometimes I complain. Other times I get on with it and say nothing.

So, IMHO, I do NOT feel 2nd class. I had a rough understanding of what to expect when I came here - Thanks in many ways to Thaivisa.

As someone said earlier, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the dam_ kitchen.' No one is forcing you to be here.

So if you want to set up some quasi 'political' / 'activist' group to fight for a better life I feel you are missing out on the better side of life here. Maybe you ought to try and smile a little more and simply accept that Thailand belongs to the Thais, with all its faults that, to me, are outweighed many times over by the benefits of being here.

[Theyreallrubbish]

2nd Class??

I spend at least 9 months a year here. Have been forcibly retired since 1996.

I go to a small shop, for the first time, to buy something and the shopkeeper positively beams at me and wants to shake my hand.

Next time I go - after a couple of weeks - he remembers exactly what I bought last time and offers me the same again.

There is a computer shop near me that I used for internet. The rate is 15 Baht for 1 hour. I am there for 20 minutes and am charged 5 Baht.

At the same computer shop I buy Iced coffee. They do not want any money for it. I insist - politely - and pay.

I need a copy of 'X' computer prog and I get it at normal rates and they are very helpful.

Where I live, the 'Grandfather' and all the staff treat me with respect.

I take the odd coffee down for the night security guard. We often sit and chat - with difficulty. Others come along, generally Thais, and I am offered beer, whiskey and even asked if I want to go to a pub/club with them.

Last night I go to a restaurant and one of the musicians makes a point of stopping by as he goes to his next job and all he wants to do is shake my hand.

When I recently took a Thai and her son fishing for the first time, people were only too willing to help and give advice.

The list of positive experiences could go on and on.

Am I rich? Do I drive a flash motor? H_ll NO!!

I drive a 10 year old Toyota pick up.

I buy ?Kow pat Gai? for 30 Baht.

Often enough I go the same places many Thais go for food, restaurants, music and more. I am always made to feel welcome.

So.....

I cannot buy land here. I cannot get this and that. I might never be allowed citizenship. I have to apply for visas to come and stay. Big deal!

This is Thailand. It is their land. Their country. They are poor - financially - by many standards. If they do not want us 'Farang' to have a greater role in their society, that is fine by me.

Overall I am content here. I do my best to learn some Thai. I smile at the people and they smile back. I get invited places by Thais. Also try my best not to be a 'flash git' - hard thing to do in the motor I drive LOL.

Yes, I have problems here at times. Sometimes I complain. Other times I get on with it and say nothing.

So, IMHO, I do NOT feel 2nd class. I had a rough understanding of what to expect when I came here - Thanks in many ways to Thaivisa.

As someone said earlier, 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the dam_ kitchen.' No one is forcing you to be here.

So if you want to set up some quasi 'political' / 'activist' group to fight for a better life I feel you are missing out on the better side of life here. Maybe you ought to try and smile a little more and simply accept that Thailand belongs to the Thais, with all its faults that, to me, are outweighed many times over by the benefits of being here.

I have to say this mirrors my experiences. In general I have been given better than average service everywhere I go purely because of my white skin.

I understand the fear that some have over possibly not being able to get visas to stay, but its a matter of money as you can always fly home to get tourist visas, and getting a letter from a Thai business to get a non-imm B is still easy. If you can't afford to fly home once every six months or have never made any Thai friends who aren't poor, then you should maybe change that rather than insist that Thailand changes its laws to accomodate your situation

As for owning land, Thais are perfectly entitiled to worry that foreign money would lead to housing being as unaffordable for normal Thai workers as it is for normal workers in most western countries. I think many Brits for example have lousy lives as most of them are working all hours to pay the mortgage on a second rate home and have little disposable income for enjoying life.

If you want an advocacy group to work you need to stop thinking in terms of what's good for you and start thinking in what changes could benefit the Thais, that coincidentally would also benefit you. Telling them you want more rights is going to get you nowhere. Telling them that to compete for foreign money against the Chinese they could come up with cleverer investment rules or that to get an advantage over Vietnam they could make smarter work permit regulations for teachers is more likely to inspire an interest in looking at the issues.

[ade100]

2nd Class??

So if you want to set up some quasi 'political' / 'activist' group to fight for a better life I feel you are missing out on the better side of life here.

Nah not so much. But I will have a chat with the embassies and chambers of commerce - see if there is some way to give some input on this.

But fear not this will not cut into my time spent boogie boarding, building my swimming pool or hanging out in beach bars with my friends, drinking cocktails.

Chin chin :-)

[ade100]

If you want an advocacy group to work you need to stop thinking in terms of what's good for you and start thinking in what changes could benefit the Thais, that coincidentally would also benefit you. Telling them you want more rights is going to get you nowhere. Telling them that to compete for foreign money against the Chinese they could come up with cleverer investment rules or that to get an advantage over Vietnam they could make smarter work permit regulations for teachers is more likely to inspire an interest in looking at the issues.

Voila. Exactly what I said in post #83:

"For me this is not about complaining about Thailand it is more about trying to find a win-win solution. Singapore and HK have benefited from opening up to more foreign skills and investment without destroying their identity. I am sure Thailand could do the same."

[Jingthing]

I concur that a win-win with the Thai's winning more is the only way. But lets face it, continuing xenophobic policies over things like land ownership are such a big win for Thai politicians, we can't really compete with that.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[Prakanong]

I concur that a win-win with the Thai's winning more is the only way. But lets face it, continuing xenophobic policies over things like land ownership are such a big win for Thai politicians, we can't really compete with that.

But by having tariff's, barriers to entry and the like the Thai's will lose out in the long run.

Economy growing by less than 6% - a falure in a developing economy - never mind hark the apologist's - it will all be better after the elections like that is going to be some panacea for all Thailands ills - sometime I really think some of the more vociferous apologists for Thailand on here actually hope for the opposite for what they profess - they want Thailand to remain the same mired in the past and rapidly being caught up by regional minnows and never able to catch the regional big boys

Just look at the FDI going into the likes of Vietnam now - apologists hark at the expansion of FDI into Thailand - but look at the quality of the jobs the investment brings - people assembling parts often built overseas and certainly not with R&D in Thailand. Look at investment in Thailands rivals - Google, Intel, Microsoft, massive new Bio-Tech and Pharma plants.

The more insular and inward looking an economy is the less well it will do in this modern new globalised world - I know its like comparing apples and pears to compare with Singapore but just look at the number of WP's issued in Thailand - what is it - 70,000 to Singapores 800,000

OK - we can take off the lowest end Singapore WP's but Singapore still beats the much larger Thailand with the higher end EP's etc too. Foreign idea's, know how, skills etc are needed in all economise now - countries should not close themselves off from this - they and their people can learn

Edited December 4, 2007 by Prakanong

[Jingthing]

Yes, I think the Thais have hurt themselves in pure GDP terms with their policies, but I also respect that there is more to life than GDP statistics.

[Prakanong]

Yes, I think the Thais have hurt themselves in pure GDP terms with their policies, but I also respect that there is more to life than GDP statistics.

Well after one speech by William Easterly Bill Gates turned to him and said, "You can not eat GDP"

Easterly waited and replied in print alluding to the fact that as a University dropout Mr Gates obvioulsy did not know GDP includied food ;-)

PS: I do like Bill myself though due to his philanthropic work in the case of HIV/TB/Malaria

PPS Gross national happiness is all well and fine for those that do not want or have worldly goods I suppose and now the sufficinecy economy means if you have money you should spend it - I am at a loss to what exactly all of this means!

[TonyLeung]

These statements about Americans being sad and lonely are just silly. Did you go around and interview all 300 million Americans?

There is always some sick desire by some farang to paint poor Thais as spiritual enlightened beings, when in reality it is the complete opposite. They are less spiritual and intelligent than richer Thais. They live a meager life style because they have no other choice.

"They are poor, but at least they are happier than Americans" -- I don't see any factual basis for this statement. The Thais, the ones working slave like jobs and standing in store isles, they look like zombies, not the enlightened happy beings that you describe.

[camerata]

If they are so happy than why do they send their teenage daughters to sell their bodies to old men in the hopes that he will marry her and take her out of that perfect, happy, blissful lifestlye?

Nothing to do with foreigners being 2nd class citizens. Get back on topic.

[Jingthing]

Bendix

Ask yourselves a simple question. Would you be prepared to give up your home citizenship if it was easier to get Thai citizenship? If the answer is no, then you really have nothing to complain about.

That is unfair question. Many countries have dual citizenship as an option; it is not a given that you have to give up your original citizenship to gain citizenship in another country. Personally, I don't seek Thai citizenship, but would love to have the opportunity to be a perm resident.

[jing jing]

There is always some sick desire by some farang to paint poor Thais as spiritual enlightened beings, when in reality it is the complete opposite. They are less spiritual and intelligent than richer Thais. They live a meager life style because they have no other choice.

"They are poor, but at least they are happier than Americans" -- I don't see any factual basis for this statement. The Thais, the ones working slave like jobs and standing in store isles, they look like zombies, not the enlightened happy beings that you describe.

Have you ever been to Issan? I doubt it. You have an open invite to my village. You will see most of the people earning 100-300 baht per day. what you will not see are zombies or unhappy people. I have travelled to every continent on the globe other than australasia and i have never seen people as happy.

Less intelligent? Maybe less educated but money does not buy intelligence.

As for them being less spiritual, that is the biggest pile of bovine dung i have read on this thread. Get out of the city and open your eyes.

If they are so happy than why do they send their teenage daughters to sell their bodies to old men in the hopes that he will marry her and take her out of that perfect, happy, blissful lifestlye? There are not ANY unhappy people in Isaan? Zero? Nata?

Please explain to me the difference between intelligence and education. Ever heard the phrase 'use it or lose it'?

A real one-trick pony, regardless of topic you always return to your favorite theme of the farmer's teenage daughter selling her body to repulsive old men in order to satisfy the family's craving for white whiskey, mobile phones, and a new motorbike. What you apparently fail to realize is that this scenario does not represent reality for the majority of families in Issan.

Why do some folks hammer this theme so relentlessly when they have no real knowledge of life upcountry?

Anyway, this discussion is so far off-topic it's not worth pursuing... let's just say it's obvious that Tony's awareness of the happiness and spirituality, or lack thereof, in the average Thai village is virtually nonexistent.

Back to the topic, put me in the group of folks who feels like they're getting a pretty fair shake over here. Although it would be nice to have more favorable visa and land ownership rules, this being Thailand there are always workarounds if you have even the slightest inclination to figure them out. Although admittedly I'm not moving in HiSo circles, I never get the feeling I'm considered inferior. If anything I'm usually given some deference or special treatment (hey, I'm rich and have white skin, right?), except in tourist areas.

If I truly felt persecuted or hard done by here, since I have the choice, I'd probably find someplace else to live.

[Jingthing]

I don't feel persecuted, just on a short leash. It's only normal to desire more stable status in a country you have moved to and live in full time. And again the obvious, you can't be a second class citizen if you aren't even a citizen.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[jing jing]

I don't feel persecuted, just on a short leash. It's only normal to desire more stable status in a country you have moved to and live in full time. And again the obvious, you can't be a second class citizen if you aren't even a citizen.

Interesting how 2 people can perceive the same situation 2 different ways. Here I feel no leash at all, free to do more or less what I please, whereas back in the States they jerk my leash the minute I hit Immigration.

[Jingthing]

I don't feel persecuted, just on a short leash. It's only normal to desire more stable status in a country you have moved to and live in full time. And again the obvious, you can't be a second class citizen if you aren't even a citizen.

Interesting how 2 people can perceive the same situation 2 different ways. Here I feel no leash at all, free to do more or less what I please, whereas back in the States they jerk my leash the minute I hit Immigration.

I am only talking about length of permission to stay. That is the short leash. I don't run a biz here but the rules for that sound very restrictive, another leash. I also prefer living here to the states; that is why I want more perm status.

Perhaps your personal situation offers better options here. You say there is always a work around, I doubt that is really true in terms of immigration rules.

BTW, hello jing jing, great name!

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[jing jing]

I don't feel persecuted, just on a short leash. It's only normal to desire more stable status in a country you have moved to and live in full time. And again the obvious, you can't be a second class citizen if you aren't even a citizen.

Interesting how 2 people can perceive the same situation 2 different ways. Here I feel no leash at all, free to do more or less what I please, whereas back in the States they jerk my leash the minute I hit Immigration.

I am only talking about length of permission to stay. That is the short leash. I don't run a biz here but the rules for that sound very restrictive around that, another leash. I also prefer living here to the states; that is why I want more perm status.

Comprendo. As I said, there are workarounds, but as of now we are permanently impermanent. Can we stay as long as we like? The answer to that is a definite "maybe."

[asiaworld]

Well to sum up the results , we have 4 persons, scattered all over asia (welcome GuestHouse) who would like to improve the situation of foreign residents of Thailand . Most of others don't give a toss, which is especially weird for the type, that gets married here & produce mixed race children ..

Kudos to TV mods for reopening this thread for constructive discussion !

From what i can see , no pressure group of any sort would fly here in Thailand, because any form of critisism, from whoever , WilL be dealt with harshly ! But mild eyeopening 'education' of sorts may surely work . Observing TV & comparing it to other worldwide expat forums, is also a great eye opener .. Happy expat , is DEFENITELY more beneficial to any host country, than an unhappy one.

My primary target group thou would be , the mixed families here.. Since wifes are thai, children are thais, by default..

What good does it make to make their father do running in circles. That could be a start.

Now take 3 million baht visa, which was swiftly introduced shortly after 1997 ..! .. Thais got brains, & they use'em well

@ their own convenience . Enforce permanence in their decisions , is another hard step .

Chambers of Commerce is a sound idea they know , whom to talk to ,& most importantly how to ..

[Jingthing]

2nd Class citizens? Give me break, If the concept of this is worrying some people that much they need to look in the mirror and tell themselves to get thicker skin and quit worrying about it.

Any chance we can put this Go Look in the Mirror cliche a rest?

A really good reason NOT to look in the mirror:

Edited December 4, 2007 by Jingthing

[asiaworld]

Stop bickering guys, before this gets closed again... 2nd class citizens we ARE NOT !! We aren't citizens to start with..

I am "second class citizen" , in my country .. Malaysia consists of 30% of "second class citizens" . Those who make kids here WILL get "second class citizens" !! Ade100 might have misnamed this topic , but he DID bring up the important question , and this is the only thread we can discuss it in

Edited December 4, 2007 by asiaworld

[Khun ?]

reciprocal

Get what one gives. Thais in foreign countries should get the same as their country gives!

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Khun ?

[PeaceBlondie]

35 more off topic posts and counter-insults deleted. Stay on topic or it will be closed again.

[samran]

reciprocal

Get what one gives. Thais in foreign countries should get the same as their country gives!

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

ahh, recipriocity...

love it. I can see it now. Farang tourists lining up outside the royal Thai embassy in London, Washington, or Canberra. Freezing cold an pissing down rain. All the old codgers who have been there since 2am, manila folder of application forms and evidence all bound together so they can submit their tourist visa applications before 10am. Pay the $200 to apply.

They finally get an interview and go into a closed room with bullet proof glass between the interviewee and the embassy staff.

- What is the purpose of your visit to Thailand?

- How much money do you have in the bank?

- What guarantee can you give that you won't undertake illegal actitvities while you are in Thailand?

.

.

.

.

then the embassy staff member goes "hold on, you haven't submitted your 4th grade school report. I notice that you haven't finished high school either". You are from a poor background, and you don't have evidence of travel anywhere else which would suggest you aren't a safe travel risk.

Application

REJECTED.

NEXT!

[PhilHarries]

I think the vested interests in Thailand think they have too much to lose if they give any leeway in the status of foreigners in the country. They way I see their mindset goes along these lines:-

If we allow this farang advocacy group to exist and have the ear of the government they will want more.

They will want to be able to take over Thai businesses.

They will want service from public bodies such as the police demanding equal treatment.

They will want representation on local councils and a say in where the money is spent.

They will eventually demand the right to vote in elections.

They will want to join Thai political parties.

They will want the right to form their own political party and stand for election.

and probably more. I know this goes a way beyond the intention of the OP but this "thin end of the wedge" mindset exists in many Thais, and of course in other nationalities, and for this reason they will block the idea. Call it xenophobia, nationalism, protectionism or whatever you like the fact is it exists and pointing to other S.E. Asian countries that have benefitted from liberal policies with respect to foreigners is a wasted effort. Thailand is different, never colonised (except by Japan but that was an occupation rather than colonisation), free and independant and the vested interests can always call on these sentiments to defend the status quo.

IMHO.

But, what the hel_l it's probably worth sounding out certain parties connected with the embassies to see if they think there is any mileage in the idea.

[tracer5050]

I spend 1/2 year in LOS ans 1/2 in the US . my thai wife stays here most of the time. I know they could tell me to go anytime . But I try to do my Visa right and not give them a reason.

But I keep most of my money off shore . If it was more stable for me here I would invest more in Thailand. So I guess i will just have to wait to see if down the road things change.

But most Thai people I know seems to like having a white friend.And treat me very well .

[Prakanong]

reciprocal

Get what one gives. Thais in foreign countries should get the same as their country gives!

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

ahh, recipriocity...

love it. I can see it now. Farang tourists lining up outside the royal Thai embassy in London, Washington, or Canberra. Freezing cold an pissing down rain. All the old codgers who have been there since 2am, manila folder of application forms and evidence all bound together so they can submit their tourist visa applications before 10am. Pay the $200 to apply.

They finally get an interview and go into a closed room with bullet proof glass between the interviewee and the embassy staff.

- What is the purpose of your visit to Thailand?

- How much money do you have in the bank?

- What guarantee can you give that you won't undertake illegal actitvities while you are in Thailand?

.

.

.

.

then the embassy staff member goes "hold on, you haven't submitted your 4th grade school report. I notice that you haven't finished high school either". You are from a poor background, and you don't have evidence of travel anywhere else which would suggest you aren't a safe travel risk.

Application

REJECTED.

NEXT!

Problem with that though is Thailand needs (well wants) the "visitors" - I think this is key ie visitors!

As for permanent or semi-permanent people it seems to want only a limited number and that is up to them. The likes of Singapore, USA, UK has quota's too (illegal immigration in UK and USA is curently making a mockery of this though and my cab driver in Singapore this morning was moaning about them sleeping on the streets in Little India and Geylang but I doubt he has much to moan about)

Would Thailand improve its economy or society by raising the quota's or relaxing the rules for dertain classes of "Visitor"?

Its obvious Thailand has lot of "Illegal" immigration too - not in the exact letter of the law but certainly in the spirit - people do live there on 3 month Visa's and Tourist visa's when they are patently not "Visitors"

For the type of people wants its not hard to geta WP - I am pretty certain all the MNC's ot other established companies do not have a problem getting suitably qualified and experienced people a year visa and WP just like I get in Singapore (I get longer actually but thats by the by).

Do all the single American or english guys think Thai's should be able to head off there and live permanently on 3 month visda's and be entitled to PR quickly?

[ade100]

Indeed, we who are here on tourist or non-immigrant visas are guests of the Kingdom. Even permanent residents are. No matter how much we spend, how many luk kreung we spawn, no matter how much Thai food we eat or Thai students we teach. Guests, and barely even 'invited guests.' Nobody begged me to come here; I just came in by their grace, and by their grace I remain. Guests in my home are not given free rein to tell me what to do, how to do it, etc. Guests don't have many rights. I am treated with at least as much courtesy and respect here as in my native country.

To those who want a cause to support, maybe this is worthy of your best efforts. I don't recall Mother Theresa working for such rights. I doubt we have the support of our national presidents or prime ministers. My prez may be telling me, "Yankee stay away from home!"

I agree with all this but have a comment on one point:

"Nobody begged me to come here; I just came in by their grace"

I am sure nobody begged you personally but let's get this into perspective. Phuket which is my second home, relies on tourism. In fact 80% of the revenue of the region is generated by tourism (and that includes not just short term visitors but people retiring and buying places to live there).

So let us not paint a picture of an indifferent Thailand with the Expats begging to stay. Thailand needs its guest, relies on them and could not survive without them. I am arguing for mutual repect and collaboration between guest and host.

[mr_hippo]

Over 100 posts of, in the most part, drivel! Re-read PBs highlighted quote below - no, better than that, read, learn and inwardly digest!

Indeed, we who are here on tourist or non-immigrant visas are guests of the Kingdom. Even permanent residents are. No matter how much we spend, how many luk kreung we spawn, no matter how much Thai food we eat or Thai students we teach. Guests, and barely even 'invited guests.' Nobody begged me to come here; I just came in by their grace, and by their grace I remain. Guests in my home are not given free rein to tell me what to do, how to do it, etc. Guests don't have many rights. I am treated with at least as much courtesy and respect here as in my native country.

To those who want a cause to support, maybe this is worthy of your best efforts. I don't recall Mother Theresa working for such rights. I doubt we have the support of our national presidents or prime ministers. My prez may be telling me, "Yankee stay away from home!"

PB and I have never met, the only thing we know about each other is by what we say on this forum. I will, for illustration purposes, assume that PB is a non-smoker. If I were to visit him in his home, would I automatically light up a cigarette? Of course not! If he were to visit me. would he say to me 'Do not smoke in here? Of course not!

Now what have you learned about PBs home and mine? "Our homes, our rules.", Now let's replace the words 'PB & Hippo' and 'homes' with 'Thai government' & 'country' and what do you get - 'Our country, our rules!'

[ade100]

Love all the exclamation points!!!! :-)

It’s an amusing analogy so let us continue for a while. In my home I treat my guests like kings and queens. I provide the best food, the most comfortable beds, I try to provide for their every need. I don’t expect them to lift a finger in cooking, cleaning or washing. I am their servant and, as many have commented, an excellent host.

But we digress. Let us turn back to the matter in hand. Would a better collaboration between Thailand and foreign investment and skills increase GDP and if so, would this have a positive or negative impact on the daily lives of ordinary Thai people?

[Jingthing]

Do all the single American or english guys think Thai's should be able to head off there and live permanently on 3 month visda's and be entitled to PR quickly?

Where did you get that idea? Nor the other way for farangs to Thailand.

Here is but one example:

For those on retirement extensions, there is no path towards perm residence, they have exactly the same TEMP status the first year, or the 30th year. That is OBJECTIVELY unreasonable, and it is common for other countries to offer a path towards more perm status after a significant period of time living in the new country, for example, five years.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[camerata]

For those on retirement extensions, there is no path towards perm residence, they have exactly the

That makes sense to me. Permanent Residence status in Thailand is "pre-Naturalization" status. Typically, when a country gives someone a shot at citizenship they are looking for a person who will make a significant contribution to the economy, usually by means of much-needed skills or labour. Most retirees from overseas don't fall into that category.