Apologies to My Pen Rye for me trying to 'fix' the poll and maybe ruining it. I learned my lesson: no more poll changing!

According to the US Department of State, Thai Government and others, the tourist industry was worth about 320 billion Baht (US$ 7.5 billion) in tourism revenue last year representing about 6% of Thailand's GDP.

Of this, approximately 8% was believed to be directly related to sex tourism and 90% of that was inter-regional with tourists from Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan etc.

This gives a contribution of Non Asian sex tourists to Thailand's GDP of 0.048%, or about 160 Million Baht. A pretty insignificant figure in the grand scheme of things and a little bit less than tourist spend on golf!

Even if we assume the authorities have got their figures wrong by a factor of ten, as some of the doom-saying anti-prostitution activists claim, the figure is still low enough that the Thai government, concerned about image, could try to get rid of the sex-tourist market, at least as far as Western tourists are concerned and feel no fiscal difficulties in doing so.

Now. The topic of this thread is "C M Has A Lot To Offer, But Can It Offer More? What?, Can we make Chiang Mai even better?" Can we please return to the topic. Discussion of prostitution, Bar girls & boys etc has always been disallowed on Thaivisa. Note Forum Rule number 1.

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material .....SNIP..... sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), .....SNIP..... or otherwise in violation of any law.

Back on topic and away from the tourist sex industry please.

Apologies to My Pen Rye for me trying to 'fix' the poll and maybe ruining it. I learned my lesson: no more poll changing!

So, it was NOT the pollice after all!

Oh! Well! Sometimes S*** happens, hey! (Spoken like a true Canadian! )

Thanks for trying to update the poll, PB! I guess sometimes you win; sometimes ... I lose! :D Thanks for trying! Apologies accepted, PB! YOUR apologies and MY pen rye, I suppose!

However, if someone can go back in time and fix this, it would be appreciated! Otherwise, can someone put back the following topics: clean air. internet infrastructure, English bookstores, English DVD rental store, movies, intelligent movies, sewage/flood control, festivals? I can remember that there were a few topics that essentially dealt with public transportation (and, considering that this will probably warrant a new poll, it does not matter to include them back.)That's all I can remember. Oh! And, add the topic on sewage and flood control, which definitely merits to be there.

If impossible, then .... my pen ... dry!

I have edited and added the requested subjects. Board restrictions mean it is only possible to fit 20 questions in each poll. Hence part 2...

That's only a little sentence.

Read it again. ; Have you finished? ; Read it once more, just to be sure. ; Done that?

Now, who's making the assumptions? ; Yes, I do get around. Nice of you to ask.

O-kay.. It has a question mark in there. That makes it a question. Example: "You seem to assume that bananas are green?" At this point you get to say yes or no, or elaborate further. That's called 'a discussion'. But never mind, I don't want to play these kinds of games; if you have something to say, say it. If not, that's fine too.

P1p, hold on, it reads:

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

Taking this one in context, I always took this to mean that it's off limits to have posts about which bars or girls are 'recommended', or have posts of a sexually explicit nature. If it now means that in a discussion that drifted on to the Thai economy we have to pretend certain sectors don't exist, then that's new. Also the poll specifically has the options 'more nightclubs' and 'more pretty women'.

Thanks for posting those figures actually, it will come in very handy in future discussions on some travelers forums where the topic also comes up ad-vomitum.

the Thai government, concerned about image, could try to get rid of the sex-tourist market, at least as far as Western tourists are concerned and feel no fiscal difficulties in doing so.

Yup. Indeed I see a tendency at higher levels to be more concerned about 'image' than about the poor making a living in what they feel is the best way for them. If the market is 90% Asian/Regional or not I don't think is very relevant as you can't keep the Asian market and only ban the Western one. I'm not even sure you can ban the whole international market and keep the LOCAL one. (and then keep it local..)

Personally I'm of the opinion that if they had any vision at all they'd LEGALIZE, and turn it into an ASSET to the tourist industry in the same way it is for example for places like Amsterdam. Legalization allows focussing efforts on combating actual wrongs, while creating a safer and fairer environment for sex workers. (Along the lines suggested by www.empowerfoundation.org) I see a trend where Chiang Mai is more and more an alternative for BANGKOK as it offers all the general 'Thai life' city & culture kind of things that people do in Bangkok like visit markets and temples. But going to 'Patpong' still seems like a thing that (group) tourists find exciting and expect from a visit to Thailand, so I think Chiang Mai has to offer this also and no attempts need to be made to ban it or hide it.

Back firmly on topic "C M Has A Lot To Offer, But Can It Offer More? What?, Can we make Chiang Mai even better?" ; I think it needs to focus on existing strengths, which are mostly cultural and historical sights and activities. Forget about wasting resources on artificial Mickey Mouse type entertainment a la the Night Safari.

... I think it needs to focus on existing strengths, which are mostly cultural and historical sights and activities...

Yes, and what is needed NOT to loose that strength is more parking lots in the inner city!

One of things that makes Chiang Mai special - not the least to the 90% tourists that comes from Asia - is the huge number of temples pr km^2. Lots of Asian tourists shoot lots of photos of each other in front of Buddha, stupas, temple doors etc. in Chiang Mais temples.

Through the last couple of months I've made a photo "safari" to the temples in the square inside the moats - all 38 of them. More than 30 of these obviously served as parking lot for the neighborhood. One had to choose angles pretty well and confine oneself to take only closeups if one wanted outdoor photos from the temple grounds, without the photo being dominated by cars. Particularly at the smaller temples, the parked cars made the ancient, historical buildings look more like toilet buildings of the parking lots of some Western theme park. So - GET THE CARS OUT OF THE TEMPLE GROUNDS, is my suggestion. (Lots of empty spaces the owner don't know what to use for in the inner city).

Prostitution in Thailand

u decide.

edit: about making chiang mai better, some good public transportation would be wonderful. unless and until the mafias of songteaws allows the govt to do so. definitely not in the near future.

We definitely need a steam-hauled narrow-guage railway, for the tourists, and me to play with !

I would suggest centre-of-town or zoo-entrance to airport to Racha-pruek to Night-Safari, as the route.

I once visited a sugar-cane town (Port Douglas ?) in northern-Queensland, where the train ran up the centre of the main-street, and around the cane-fields. The tourists loved it - the locals all waved at the walking-ATMs. And then we went to a world-famous meat-pie shop (Muckers' ?) for lunch. Brilliant !

I think the Immigration Authorities had better lower the IQ cut-off level to 80 so as TV can retain a few local contributors.

if you asking about getting more tourists here and more people(farangs) to live here then get more red light districts. thats the only and surest way to get the $$$ into economy. and thats reality.

otherwise if you are asking about improving chiang mai for those of us who live here, its already good enough. let it be this way.

Enough said. Mai pen lie and capitalism/western ways only mesh so far.

According to the US Department of State, Thai Government and others, the tourist industry was worth about 320 billion Baht (US$ 7.5 billion) in tourism revenue last year representing about 6% of Thailand's GDP.

Of this, approximately 8% was believed to be directly related to sex tourism and 90% of that was inter-regional with tourists from Malaysia, Japan, Taiwan etc.

This gives a contribution of Non Asian sex tourists to Thailand's GDP of 0.048%, or about 160 Million Baht. A pretty insignificant figure in the grand scheme of things and a little bit less than tourist spend on golf!

Thanks for clarifying that. Too many old-timers in Chiang Mai vastly over-rate the importance of a few empty bars and their clients. Hence, any discussion about improving Chiang Mai comes down to lifting the restrictions on these places. To say that it is the Bread n Butter of the Thai economy is simply amazing. This suggests an exaggerated sense of importance. Maybe their egos are being massaged too much?

As it is Chiang Mai is a great place to live and visit, but of course there is still plenty of room for improvement. Tuktuk's are a novelty for most tourists , but they are far too noisy and too many of the drivers are reckless. Maybe an electric version with properly trained drivers would help.

As has already been pointed out, temples are quickly becoming huge car parks. The city needs to address this problem as well as provide the most basic of amenities - public toilets. Almost non-existent. How many have you come across? There used to be a filthy hole that was supposed to be a toilet on the Tapae Gate square but I imagine that has been demolished. Such a popular venue for many cultural events and no decent toilets? That is probably still the case after the recent improvements. By the way, I think the new surfaces around the moat are a big improvement. The old cobble-stones were unsightly and uneven.

Pedestrianisation of maybe the Night bazaar in the evenings and the back sois of the old city could add a bit of tranquility that is missing in a 700yr old city. A lot of old tourist towns in Europe have this and it certainly adds to the charm.

The local government does a good job of beautifying the place with flower pots along the bridges, river and around the moat. Maybe this could be extended. The pollution in march/April needs to be urgently addressed. Most Thais see Chiang Mai as a Shangrila in the mountains , that should be the target.

.

Many good points, Kevin.

Pedestrianisation of maybe the Night bazaar in the evenings and the back sois of the old city could add a bit of tranquility that is missing in a 700yr old city. A lot of old tourist towns in Europe have this and it certainly adds to the charm.

Definitely !!! Several such zones could be reserved for pedestrians only; some a little out of the city, too - not necessarily every day/ 24 hrs. (Though of course requires planning for transport and parking).

I have edited and added the requested subjects. Board restrictions mean it is only possible to fit 20 questions in each poll. Hence part 2...

Thanks very much! It looks great!

Hi MyPenRye,

My vote for what CM most needs is development control. The old city, within the moat, should be a World Heritage site---it certainly has the historical/cultural/architectural interest to justify this. This would make CM more attractive to tourists, using its unique character and history as a selling point. However, the lack of control over what has been built and done there has damaged it substantially in the last three decades since I first saw it. It is not too late to try and reverse this by encouraging appropriate building styles, getting the cars out of the temples (as a previous poster suggested), reducing the impact of hoardings etc., encouraging inappropriate businesses like car showrooms to move to the Superhighway or ring roads etc. I am not suggesting closing down the restaurants, bars etc. (or used book stores), which give character, but instead trying to reduce (and eventually get rid of), large modern buildings, so that the old city is once again dominated by temples and historic landmarks.

Missed you at tennis!

Neil

That's only a little sentence.

Read it again. ; Have you finished? ; Read it once more, just to be sure. ; Done that?

Now, who's making the assumptions? ; Yes, I do get around. Nice of you to ask.

O-kay.. It has a question mark in there. That makes it a question. Example: "You seem to assume that bananas are green?" At this point you get to say yes or no, or elaborate further. That's called 'a discussion'. But never mind, I don't want to play these kinds of games; if you have something to say, say it. If not, that's fine too.

P1p, hold on, it reads:

1) You will not use thaivisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, referencing prostitution (including bargirls and barboys), referencing suicide, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

Taking this one in context, I always took this to mean that it's off limits to have posts about which bars or girls are 'recommended', or have posts of a sexually explicit nature. If it now means that in a discussion that drifted on to the Thai economy we have to pretend certain sectors don't exist, then that's new. Also the poll specifically has the options 'more nightclubs' and 'more pretty women'.

Thanks for posting those figures actually, it will come in very handy in future discussions on some travelers forums where the topic also comes up ad-vomitum.

the Thai government, concerned about image, could try to get rid of the sex-tourist market, at least as far as Western tourists are concerned and feel no fiscal difficulties in doing so.

Yup. Indeed I see a tendency at higher levels to be more concerned about 'image' than about the poor making a living in what they feel is the best way for them. If the market is 90% Asian/Regional or not I don't think is very relevant as you can't keep the Asian market and only ban the Western one. I'm not even sure you can ban the whole international market and keep the LOCAL one. (and then keep it local..)

Personally I'm of the opinion that if they had any vision at all they'd LEGALIZE, and turn it into an ASSET to the tourist industry in the same way it is for example for places like Amsterdam. Legalization allows focussing efforts on combating actual wrongs, while creating a safer and fairer environment for sex workers. (Along the lines suggested by www.empowerfoundation.org) I see a trend where Chiang Mai is more and more an alternative for BANGKOK as it offers all the general 'Thai life' city & culture kind of things that people do in Bangkok like visit markets and temples. But going to 'Patpong' still seems like a thing that (group) tourists find exciting and expect from a visit to Thailand, so I think Chiang Mai has to offer this also and no attempts need to be made to ban it or hide it.

Back firmly on topic "C M Has A Lot To Offer, But Can It Offer More? What?, Can we make Chiang Mai even better?" ; I think it needs to focus on existing strengths, which are mostly cultural and historical sights and activities. Forget about wasting resources on artificial Mickey Mouse type entertainment a la the Night Safari.

I agree with all opinions expressed here including on AND off topic opinions.

I accept the criticism of the quoted forum rule, however my post stands and the topic is much broader than the discussion of numbers of watering holes and availability of willing, round-heeled demimondaines would lead readers to suspect.

We need to try to keep it on the broader topic of what more should Chiang Mai aspire to offer.

Who are we trying to improve Chiang Mai for?:

1. The Thais who live here?

2. Tourists from other parts of Thailand?

3. Other Asian tourists?

4. Western/Australian/NZ backpackers?

5. Upscale tourists?

6. Long-time expats?

7. New and future expats?

Each group has their own needs. The Thais who live here want more development. I bet most of the don't want pedestrianization and limited parking within the old city. Development such as the Night Safari and Ratchapruak was designed mostly for Thai tourists. Some of the projects are successful; some aren't. Most of the backpackers would like more culture and atmosphere, which is quickly disappearing. Sure, some of them would probably like to have a nightlife scene that lasted a little longer into the night. Long-time expats would like a return to the old days when the banned-from-discussion businesses flourished. Without the businesses, CM is attracting a different type of new and future expat. People who are looking for outdoor experiences and a friendly, inexpensive place to live. Some of them don't want to live in a city known for its banned-from-discussion businesses. There are more and more western couples moving here. How many western women were living here 5 or 10 years ago? I'm sure they have no interest in those businesses.

So first we should figure out who this poll is designed for. Then maybe we should set up a poll to find out why people are leaving CM. Isn't that equally important? My unscientific research, based solely on reading selected posts on TV, is that the vast majority of expats have left because of the poor air quality in Feb/March.

Who are we trying to improve Chiang Mai for?:

1. The Thais who live here?

2. Tourists from other parts of Thailand?

3. Other Asian tourists?

4. Western/Australian/NZ backpackers?

5. Upscale tourists?

6. Long-time expats?

7. New and future expats?

Each group has their own needs. The Thais who live here want more development. I bet most of the don't want pedestrianization and limited parking within the old city. Development such as the Night Safari and Ratchapruak was designed mostly for Thai tourists. Some of the projects are successful; some aren't. Most of the backpackers would like more culture and atmosphere, which is quickly disappearing. Sure, some of them would probably like to have a nightlife scene that lasted a little longer into the night. Long-time expats would like a return to the old days when the banned-from-discussion businesses flourished. Without the businesses, CM is attracting a different type of new and future expat. People who are looking for outdoor experiences and a friendly, inexpensive place to live. Some of them don't want to live in a city known for its banned-from-discussion businesses. There are more and more western couples moving here. How many western women were living here 5 or 10 years ago? I'm sure they have no interest in those businesses.

So first we should figure out who this poll is designed for. Then maybe we should set up a poll to find out why people are leaving CM. Isn't that equally important? My unscientific research, based solely on reading selected posts on TV, is that the vast majority of expats have left because of the poor air quality in Feb/March.

Yes! Your post makes a lot of sense, but ''we'' (Thais and maybe us) need to cater to all of those groups, keeping in mind the needs of each group. I also think that there is a change in demographics. There are more retirees (because those baby-boomers are not ... babies anymore --although some would claim otherwise). I also agree that the bag pollution is a concern as the poll suggests. The poll alos indicates a need/desire for public transportation (most B-B on motorcycles can be dangerous). However, as another poster has mentioned, tuk-tuk drivers and the likes as well as the farmers burning are going to be groups that are not likely to give up their old habits/job.

I agree with Neil's suggestions, as Chiang Mai's differences and exotism were vital in interesting me (and expats) and will in keeping a certain group of people look for an alternative to the "slease". Couples are certainly coming here more than in the past. But, I doubt we can remove the Loy Kroh road crowds. Maybe civilised co-existence might be the best solution. More progressive solution in the area of prostitution is needed, of course, but the rest of Thailand is very conservative and not likely to have us run the show. It is their country. That being said, my GF is seeing a lot of Korean coming this year, 99% of them seeking what they know Thailand offers, sleazy Karaoke activities included. But, I think you are right. There are changes.

Are Thais monitoring and aware of the situation? How many? What to do?

Ok I'm impressed with recent replies; some excellent comments, also from Kevin, Neil and then lastly from El Jefe.. Some very good points.

On the pavements around the moat though, I agree it's more even, but there are so many obstacles that it's still very hard to walk there. (And people in wheelchairs especially need not apply to negotiate the pavements around the moat..)

On making the Night Bazar pedestrian-only: They actually have done that the past high seasons: It generates huge traffic pressure on Kamphaeng Din and the Thapae Gate area, because traffic can't get out along Chang Klan.. I am of course in favour of more pedestrian areas, but then especially inside the Old Town I guess.

1. There's a chance for the "foreign community" to voice some of their thoughts at the Informal Northern Thai Group meeting on Tuesday, April 8th 2008 : Dr. Deuntemduang Na Chiengmai, the Mayor of Chiang Mai, will talk about future plans for Chiang Mai. (Title of talk to be confirmed.)

2. For details of a recent talk by Nikom Putta, subscribe to the INTG newsletter or check their website (this talk not posted there yet, check in a few weeks ).

Just to give you an idea :

Background Information on Nikom Putta

Originally from a local farming village of the Upper Mae Ping Watershed,

Nikom first got involved in environmental work after a field trip to Khao

Yai National Park while he was working in Bangkok. He went on to become a

ranger at Khai Yai, where he was moved to protest against the violence used

by the rangers to keep locals out of the park. It was in this job where

that he came to the conclusion that it was necessary to work with and not

against local populations.

Next, Nikom found a job with World Wildlife Fund International of Thailand,

where he worked for over ten years. Shortly after starting his new job, he

returned to the national park, this time through a Wildlife Fund of

Thailand community forestry program for local people. This time, he had a

chance to develop his own projects and learn a great deal about the

relationship between deforestation and poverty, and the need to work with

local people to address resource issues. In 1997 he returned to his home

and launched the Upper Mae Ping River Management project.

Short Summary

"Our main objective as conservationists should be to save Thailand's

remaining natural habitats and ecosystems. Intricately woven into this

objective are the realization and understanding that people are an integral

part of natural ecosystems and they cannot be left out of any of the

projects to protect and conserve these areas"

Excerpts from talk :

Nikom Putta's main achievement has been the creation of a successful

conservation movement by involving all concerned parties - the local

communities, the media, government officials and policy makers - in the

management and protection of the natural resources in the Upper Mae Ping

River Watershed in Northern Thailand.

...

Results

The implementation of the Upper Mae Ping River Basin Management Project

resulted in the establishment of community organization networks such as

the Mae Ping River Community Forest Network comprising of members in 54

villages (covering most of Chiang Dao district), the Mae Ping River

Resuscitation and Conservation Network with members from 28 villages living

along the Mae Ping River bank, and the Water Resource Network with 72

villages who manage water resource in the form of small dam. The networks'

activities help prevent illegal logging, boost local unity, peacefully

solve people's fights for local resources, and allow the people and state

agencies to communicate.

In January 2003, the Parliament in Thailand passed a resolution identifying

the Upper Ping Watershed as an ecologically fragile area in need of urgent

resuscitation through community participation. This area became the pilot

project for the Ministry of Natural Resources and Environment to adopt the

model of public participation with emphasis on collaboration among all

constituents. Following this ruling Nikom launched the Forest Resuscitation

project.

Nikom is most recognized for pioneering the revival of this heavily

deforested and damaged area while creating mechanisms for alternative

sources of livelihood and natural resource management in agreement with

local lifestyles and the ecosystem.

Along with enabling communities to better manage their natural environment,

he has also been a key voice in representing these communities in the wake

of damaging development projects. Nikom was successful in making the

communities' concerns heard when they were not consulted in the case of the

cable car project in Chiang Dao, which was ultimately cancelled.

At present, he continues to critique the Night Safari by exposing the

treatment of animals in the tourist attraction and was successful in

temporarily preventing the import of wild animals from Kenya. Another

policy change crucial to better management of natural resources is the

Community Forest Bill which will enable locals to legally manage the land

and resources they inhabit. Without this bill they are not ensured support

from the governing bodies and are therefore more prone to conflict.

Furthermore, the Senate's suggestion to exclude establishment of community

forests in reserves has threatened the current support community networks

get from governing bodies.

INTG CONTACTS:

1) Convenor: Brian Hubbard. Email: <brihubb AT loxinfo.co.th

2) Secretary: Louis Gabaude: e-mail: <gabaudel AT loxinfo.co.th

INTG Website: intgcm.thehostserver.com

if you asking about getting more tourists here and more people(farangs) to live here then get more red light districts. thats the only and surest way to get the $$$ into economy. and thats reality.

otherwise if you are asking about improving chiang mai for those of us who live here, its already good enough. let it be this way.

Enough said. Mai pen lie and capitalism/western ways only mesh so far.

Could you please elaborate further on your thoughts? Are you saying that nothing should be done about some problems raised by expats and highlighted in the poll? Thanks. I would like to know more.

1. There's a chance for the "foreign community" to voice some of their thoughts at the Informal Northern Thai Group meeting on Tuesday, April 8th 2008 : Dr. Deuntemduang Na Chiengmai, the Mayor of Chiang Mai, will talk about future plans for Chiang Mai. (Title of talk to be confirmed.)

2. For details of a recent talk by Nikom Putta, subscribe to the INTG newsletter or check their website (this talk not posted there yet, check in a few weeks ).

Just to give you an idea :

Background Information on Nikom Putta

Originally from a local farming village of the Upper Mae Ping Watershed,

[...]

INTG CONTACTS:

1) Convenor: Brian Hubbard. Email: <brihubb AT loxinfo.co.th

2) Secretary: Louis Gabaude: e-mail: <gabaudel AT loxinfo.co.th

INTG Website: intgcm.thehostserver.com

Thanks for the comprehensive post. It looks like a great initiative.

Am I right in assuming that these meetings are conducted exclusively in English? Is there some mechanism for sharing these with local authorities ... in Thai?

if you asking about getting more tourists here and more people(farangs) to live here then get more red light districts. thats the only and surest way to get the $ into economy. and thats reality.

Great minds think alike tigerbeer.

Everyone is asking why tourism has gone steadily down ever since the morality campaigns a few years ago.

Because they chased away the Golden Goose: The sextourists and "regular" tourists who enjoy the whole atmosphere of being around something that is not easy to observe safely in other countries because it is only alowed to exist in dangerous redlight districts where normal people fear to tread. Adult sex tourism is this countries' bread and butter.

You must be joking right? If not, then please print this and stick it in front of all your book shops as a reminder to others what you think of this country. Do you think the sex industry is a larger money earner then say the auto industry in Thailand? Larger then rice exports? Larger then chicken produce exports? Larger then the rubber product industry?

Tired of this slur and slander from foreigners about Thailand ……………………..

I agree about the slur - not acceptable

But businesses that rely on tourism for their own cash flow are looking for reasons why tourist numbers and profits are down. A less liberal attitude to sex tourists therefore appears as a valid reason to them

if you asking about getting more tourists here and more people(farangs) to live here then get more red light districts. thats the only and surest way to get the $ into economy. and thats reality.

Great minds think alike tigerbeer.

Everyone is asking why tourism has gone steadily down ever since the morality campaigns a few years ago.

Because they chased away the Golden Goose: The sextourists and "regular" tourists who enjoy the whole atmosphere of being around something that is not easy to observe safely in other countries because it is only alowed to exist in dangerous redlight districts where normal people fear to tread. Adult sex tourism is this countries' bread and butter.

You must be joking right? If not, then please print this and stick it in front of all your book shops as a reminder to others what you think of this country. Do you think the sex industry is a larger money earner then say the auto industry in Thailand? Larger then rice exports? Larger then chicken produce exports? Larger then the rubber product industry?

Tired of this slur and slander from foreigners about Thailand ……………………..

I agree about the slur - not acceptable

But businesses that rely on tourism for their own cash flow are looking for reasons why tourist numbers and profits are down. A less liberal attitude to sex tourists therefore appears as a valid reason to them

Where did you dig this one up from Caf?

This thread is three and a half years old, the meeting referred to in the post 2 before the last took place almost 3 years ago

I see no benefit in keeping it open when most of the dtails are now out of date

Caf , if you want to continue this please feel free to start over

///CLOSED///