Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[ando]

Another point made was that if Thailand becomes a first-world democracy, maids will not work all day for 100b. This will also mean that girls (and boys) will not need to sell their bodies to eat and support the buffalo..and it also means that prices (of beer, food, sex, everything) will go up. The outcome for good-time farangs will be less honey more money. If you are a good ole farang down in Cowboy then you should ensure that the poor stay poor however you can. Buy some votes yourself, invest in your future. Pay those gals 500b to vote how YOU want.

Yep! That's correct. And that's exactly why the more educated ruling class elite don't want a democracy in Thailand.

Taxes on the wealthy will creep up to fund social programmes as the wages and standard of living will also creep up for the lower classes. Which means the class divide will narrow substantially compared to what it is today.

The way it is now, the wealthy are riding on the backs of the poor. The wealthy prosper and live a very comfortable life at the expense of lower life expectancy and a life of poverty for the peasants. To some extent we as tourists and expats enjoy the benefits of this discrepancy in distribution of the countries wealth and opportunity also. However, its not up to us to change it. So just enjoy it while its there. While I too enjoy the benefits of the current set up with the poor peasants being kept down, I cant morally justify supporting such a system. Would it help if I paid more for my goods and services in Thailand? Not at all. Change must come from within and on a broad scale. And I support that change, not that it counts for much in the broader scale of Thai politics. But I have Thai family who are in Issarn. They are not dirt poor, but I would like to see them have a better chance in life as I have had during the rise in wealth of my own country under democratic rule over the decades (Australia).

Countries develop and evolve socially as well as economically. Remember, even the USA only abolished slavery 142 years ago.

The current situation in Thailand is not so different from slavery, however as the country develops and embraces true democracy a lot of the peasant class will be able to better themselves and move up the socio-economic scale to become a growing middle class while at the same time reducing the relative wealth, power and political influence of the former ruling class elite.

And that's about it in a nutshell as to where Thailand is going at the moment if one wants to remove their focus from the microscopic issues and look at the broader picture.

But never fear, things are not going to change overnight for us tourists and expats. There wont be any revolutionary change as that wouldn't work anyway.

The change will be slow, generational in fact, as it has been in our own developed countries. A gradual process over decades as democracy brings change. But first there must be a genuine democracy to get the ball rolling. That's where Thailand is today, balancing on the verge of accepting a true democracy and a pseudo democracy where the elite ruling class cling to power. One or two more coups should do it I think. Either Thailand turns into another Burma or it moves along with the rest of the world.

[yorkman]

16:09 Troops to transfer out of Bangkok to bases - BANGKOK POST -

(BangkokPost.com) - First army region informed public the transfer of troops out of Bangkok and the neighbouring areas to Prachin Buri, Lop Buri and Kanchanaburi on Monday night.

The transfer, scheduled at 8pm, is informed to prevent any misunderstanding after unofficial voting results show People Power party (PPP) winning 228 seats from the total of 480. Its rival Democrat party has won 165 seats.

Tanks are expected to be seen on roads as the troops head back to their bases.

Strange logic. This could be it! Another coup? This unexpected move could be the pretense under which the military and the ruling elite tonight retain their power base.

Does anyone have any further info. about this? Seems a bit ominous to me.

Well if this was the prequel to a coup I don't see why they would be moving back to their bases in the provinces. The reverse in fact

Perhaps read as "The transfer, scheduled at 8pm, is being publicised to prevent any misunderstanding", just rather bad english? After all, tanks on the roads and all that

[KireB]

Another point made was that if Thailand becomes a first-world democracy, maids will not work all day for 100b. This will also mean that girls (and boys) will not need to sell their bodies to eat and support the buffalo..and it also means that prices (of beer, food, sex, everything) will go up. The outcome for good-time farangs will be less honey more money. If you are a good ole farang down in Cowboy then you should ensure that the poor stay poor however you can. Buy some votes yourself, invest in your future. Pay those gals 500b to vote how YOU want.

Yep! That's correct. And that's exactly why the more educated ruling class elite don't want a democracy in Thailand.

Taxes on the wealthy will creep up to fund social programmes as the wages and standard of living will also creep up for the lower classes. Which means the class divide will narrow substantially compared to what it is today.

The way it is now, the wealthy are riding on the backs of the poor. The wealthy prosper and live a very comfortable life at the expense of lower life expectancy and a life of poverty for the peasants. To some extent we as tourists and expats enjoy the benefits of this discrepancy in distribution of the countries wealth and opportunity also. However, its not up to us to change it. So just enjoy it while its there. While I too enjoy the benefits of the current set up with the poor peasants being kept down, I cant morally justify supporting such a system. Would it help if I paid more for my goods and services in Thailand? Not at all. Change must come from within and on a broad scale. And I support that change, not that it counts for much in the broader scale of Thai politics. But I have Thai family who are in Issarn. They are not dirt poor, but I would like to see them have a better chance in life as I have had during the rise in wealth of my own country under democratic rule over the decades (Australia).

Countries develop and evolve socially as well as economically. Remember, even the USA only abolished slavery 142 years ago.

The current situation in Thailand is not so different from slavery, however as the country develops and embraces true democracy a lot of the peasant class will be able to better themselves and move up the socio-economic scale to become a growing middle class while at the same time reducing the relative wealth, power and political influence of the former ruling class elite.

And that's about it in a nutshell as to where Thailand is going at the moment if one wants to remove their focus from the microscopic issues and look at the broader picture.

But never fear, things are not going to change overnight for us tourists and expats. There wont be any revolutionary change as that wouldn't work anyway.

The change will be slow, generational in fact, as it has been in our own developed countries. A gradual process over decades as democracy brings change. But first there must be a genuine democracy to get the ball rolling. That's where Thailand is today, balancing on the verge of accepting a true democracy and a pseudo democracy where the elite ruling class cling to power. One or two more coups should do it I think. Either Thailand turns into another Burma or it moves along with the rest of the world.

True as can be! Lend them money and they'll work in order to pay it back; a famous historical view point that comes to mind. Produce cheap, high profit. Education? Nah, rather not; people might see through this vicious cycle!

This is sad but true.

[Felt 35]

that's exactly why the more educated ruling class elite don't want a democracy in Thailand.

Taxes on the wealthy will creep up to fund social programmes as the wages and standard of living will also creep up for the lower classes. Which means the class divide will narrow substantially compared to what it is today.

The way it is now, the wealthy are riding on the backs of the poor. The wealthy prosper and live a very comfortable life at the expense of lower life expectancy and a life of poverty for the peasants. To some extent we as tourists and expats enjoy the benefits of this discrepancy in distribution of the countries wealth and opportunity also. However, its not up to us to change it. So just enjoy it while its there. While I too enjoy the benefits of the current set up with the poor peasants being kept down, I cant morally justify supporting such a system. Would it help if I paid more for my goods and services in Thailand? Not at all. Change must come from within and on a broad scale. And I support that change, not that it counts for much in the broader scale of Thai politics. But I have Thai family who are in Issarn. They are not dirt poor, but I would like to see them have a better chance in life as I have had during the rise in wealth of my own country under democratic rule over the decades (Australia).

Countries develop and evolve socially as well as economically. Remember, even the USA only abolished slavery 142 years ago.

The current situation in Thailand is not so different from slavery, however as the country develops and embraces true democracy a lot of the peasant class will be able to better themselves and move up the socio-economic scale to become a growing middle class while at the same time reducing the relative wealth, power and political influence of the former ruling class elite.

And that's about it in a nutshell as to where Thailand is going at the moment if one wants to remove their focus from the microscopic issues and look at the broader picture.

But never fear, things are not going to change overnight for us tourists and expats. There wont be any revolutionary change as that wouldn't work anyway.

The change will be slow, generational in fact, as it has been in our own developed countries. A gradual process over decades as democracy brings change. But first there must be a genuine democracy to get the ball rolling. That's where Thailand is today, balancing on the verge of accepting a true democracy and a pseudo democracy where the elite ruling class cling to power. One or two more coups should do it I think. Either Thailand turns into another Burma or it moves along with the rest of the world.

It will probably take a generation.. or two but it will eventually happen.

BTW, very well formulated Ando.

[Mosha]

On our rounds to invite friends to come to a party tomorrow. Concerns expressed to my wife were trouble to follow.

[chanman]

Just a passing thought but I wonder if Toxin does return will he be a little more favorable to us Brits for visas now as we were so nice to him during his stay?

[samsara]

From what I have been told (by people I trust) the major issue facing the people upcountry has been the large amount of personal debt which has created an anchor around their necks. This debt is viewed as Thaksin's debt and as such it is thought that only Thaksin could be trusted to get the debt erased.

It was Thaksin's debt. He introduced the village fund, and the villagers jumped for joy, borrowed as much as they could, largely wasted it on cards and the lottery, and now have even bigger debts than before. By all means let Thaksin erase their debts from his large piggy bank, but it is not the job of any government nor the taxpayers to bail out these incompetent people

most certainly not. BUT it IS the job of thai government to see that all people have access to adequate education. at this time, such is not even remotely the case. educated people have enough trouble avoiding the pitfalls of life (gambling, drinking, etc); the uneducated dont stand a chance.

[samsara]

that's exactly why the more educated ruling class elite don't want a democracy in Thailand.

Taxes on the wealthy will creep up to fund social programmes as the wages and standard of living will also creep up for the lower classes. Which means the class divide will narrow substantially compared to what it is today.

The way it is now, the wealthy are riding on the backs of the poor. The wealthy prosper and live a very comfortable life at the expense of lower life expectancy and a life of poverty for the peasants. To some extent we as tourists and expats enjoy the benefits of this discrepancy in distribution of the countries wealth and opportunity also. However, its not up to us to change it. So just enjoy it while its there. While I too enjoy the benefits of the current set up with the poor peasants being kept down, I cant morally justify supporting such a system. Would it help if I paid more for my goods and services in Thailand? Not at all. Change must come from within and on a broad scale. And I support that change, not that it counts for much in the broader scale of Thai politics. But I have Thai family who are in Issarn. They are not dirt poor, but I would like to see them have a better chance in life as I have had during the rise in wealth of my own country under democratic rule over the decades (Australia).

Countries develop and evolve socially as well as economically. Remember, even the USA only abolished slavery 142 years ago.

The current situation in Thailand is not so different from slavery, however as the country develops and embraces true democracy a lot of the peasant class will be able to better themselves and move up the socio-economic scale to become a growing middle class while at the same time reducing the relative wealth, power and political influence of the former ruling class elite.

And that's about it in a nutshell as to where Thailand is going at the moment if one wants to remove their focus from the microscopic issues and look at the broader picture.

But never fear, things are not going to change overnight for us tourists and expats. There wont be any revolutionary change as that wouldn't work anyway.

The change will be slow, generational in fact, as it has been in our own developed countries. A gradual process over decades as democracy brings change. But first there must be a genuine democracy to get the ball rolling. That's where Thailand is today, balancing on the verge of accepting a true democracy and a pseudo democracy where the elite ruling class cling to power. One or two more coups should do it I think. Either Thailand turns into another Burma or it moves along with the rest of the world.

It will probably take a generation.. or two but it will eventually happen.

BTW, very well formulated Ando.

i would like to agree but i dont. thailand is a different beast than the west. buddhism and its knack for creating complacency will lengthen the journey a good bit.

[Heng]

do you disagree with my statement that the rich have a bigger proportion of the pie and that if the pie gets bigger, the rich get richer...

No kidding, and thank goodness that that's the way the world works.

... so why don't the Thai Chinese realize that if they give the rural poor a break and take their boot off of their neck for a few minutes maybe Thailand would go from a back water country to a first world country?

Well, for one, contrary to the popular belief of some apparently, we're not some kind of collective 'Borg' type entity... although it's understandable for those on the outside or for those with boots/sandals/penny loafers, etc. on their necks to feel that way. I do believe though that individuals and groups of individuals persuing their own personal economic interests creates more value and benefit for not only themselves, but for all those whose economic actions they touch/overlap with as well (their own employees of course, and of course all business owners and workers who are upstream and downstream from their particular industry), particularly when compared to breaking up and dividing the pie when its mass increases. But I'm sure you knew all that already, as do most folks who make such statements. I think your issue might be that the standard/average increase in quality of life is not quite up to your own personal standards (like say, 100+ workers of factory X going from living without simple utilities like water and electricity to living in factory dormitories with running water, electricity, televisions and electric rice cookers), nevermind that you are likely not doing anything of the like on the same scale. You might feel that, okay, that's nice, but they should be GIVEN more, yes... like say paid scholarships through 4 years of college? Feel free to correct me if my assumption is incorrect.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Heng

[h90]

16:09 Troops to transfer out of Bangkok to bases - BANGKOK POST -

(BangkokPost.com) - First army region informed public the transfer of troops out of Bangkok and the neighbouring areas to Prachin Buri, Lop Buri and Kanchanaburi on Monday night.

The transfer, scheduled at 8pm, is informed to prevent any misunderstanding after unofficial voting results show People Power party (PPP) winning 228 seats from the total of 480. Its rival Democrat party has won 165 seats.

Tanks are expected to be seen on roads as the troops head back to their bases.

Strange logic. This could be it! Another coup? This unexpected move could be the pretense under which the military and the ruling elite tonight retain their power base.

Does anyone have any further info. about this? Seems a bit ominous to me.

Well if this was the prequel to a coup I don't see why they would be moving back to their bases in the provinces. The reverse in fact

Perhaps read as "The transfer, scheduled at 8pm, is being publicised to prevent any misunderstanding", just rather bad english? After all, tanks on the roads and all that

They might concentrated some power in Bangkok just in case something happens. Nothing happens....they send it back.

[Yooyung]

So, where are all those tanks going?

[astor]

The PPP won. Beautiful name, it should be wonderful to belive that the power belongs to the people. Unfortunately this is not the case. The power always belongs to the capitalist lobbies ,and to the multinationals too. Wich are destroying this country and his culture by their invasiveness.

No matter who won the elections because they will always command.

The new world order

[Johpa]

...and yet another example of why democracy DOES NOT work, especially in a vastly uneducated society. it doesnt work in the US (citing last election) because people are too blind (uneducated) to actually vote about issues rather than sentiments (faith, nice guy status, etc.). the results in bkk are the PROPER results for this election. they are the common sense final cause of everything that has happened the past 2 years here. but your never question authority/short-term-gratification votes of Isaan have destroyed the mandate of the people. imo, this election shows the mandate of the thai people to be GIVE ME A BOTTLE OF MEKONG rather than GIVE ME A RULING PARTY THAT GIVES A SHIT. so sad.

I am surprised at how many people here equate being from a rural Thai background and of being ethnic Lao/Isaan with being uneducated; in reality, I am surprised at how many of you have assimilated the elite racism of the Bangkok (Sino) Thai elite.

Even the more remote areas of Thailand have a fairly high degree of literacy. I have spent my years in-country living amongst the rural populace and although they might be conservative and they might not be urbane, they, the Thai rural poor, are most certainly not uneducated. What they see, and what all you fellow Farangs with your fancy college degrees and you neo-sahib lifestyles aren't able to see is that none of the Thai political parties give a rat's derrière about the lives of the vast majority of the citizenry. So please tell me what is wrong with giving your vote to the political party that does toss you a bone as opposed to the party that does not toss you a bone? Is it not rational to give your vote to the party that even for a brief moment acknowledges your existence on the planet in hopes, almost a millenarian hope, that in the future other parties will follow suit in more substantial ways?

[sriracha john]

SpacemanSpliff

Group: Banned

Joined: 2007-12-20

From: Khao San Road

I dare say 'congratulations' are in order.

I wholeheartedly agree....

[Farangderthal]

I too say congratulations are in order... And fortunately we live in the real world.

Suck it up, cupcake.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Farangderthal

[Farangderthal]

I am surprised at how many people here equate being from a rural Thai background and of being ethnic Lao/Isaan with being uneducated;

Me too.

And I'm even more surprised at why this bigoted slander is allowed to stand.

Similar to the level of abuse certain very valuable members have to endure, such as Heng or Emperor Tud.

Mystery, mystery..

[sriracha john]

Actually if you check it was very publicized that the judges had a few visits to the palace for guidance and the military along with the people accepted the ruling. Please be sure you get your facts straight and not end up in trouble for criticizing the court, that part was made very clear[/u]. Now it looks like the PPP plans to go beyond all that and just rip out the ruling by the roots. It is like giving people in jail the keys.

The rebuttal to that argument about HRH and his military advisers is a no go area here under forum rules. Are you trying to bait someone?

Re the "people" accepting the ruling as you claim, I would think the results of the most recent election clearly shows that the "people" did not accept the ruling. The people simply did not have any say in the matter at the time.

I also recall that under the protective umbrella of the military dictatorship, the judiciary threatening legal action against anyone who publicly challenged their integrity and impartiality. Now that's a real case of freedom of speech in a democratic society isn't it? The judiciary sets itself above scrutiny by the media and is backed up by a bunch of generals who have seized political power under force of arms. The outcome of being tried in the courts for the crime of criticizing the courts would be pretty much a foregone conclusion in most peoples minds I think. Its quite obvious to the "people" as demonstrated in Sundays vote, that the judiciary is not impartial, and in fact leans towards the old elite power base which includes the military. The fact that the "people" voted for a party campaigning on a platform of reviewing decisions in relation to Thaksin made by the courts which were previously unquestionable, indicates that the people do not have faith in the impartiality of the courts.

I think your statement about, --- ending up in trouble for criticising the court, adequately demonstrates the suppression of freedom of speech that was resented by the people under the military dictatorship.

Excuse me, but apparently you are under the mistaken belief that this is something new. It most certainly is not.

Judge warns critics

Constitution Court judge Preecha Chalermvanich yesterday threatened to take legal action against any politician unduly criticising his rationale for voting for the acquittal of Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on his graft indictment, warning that the politician’s party could be dissolved.

Preecha said in a statement that the court and the bench had constitutional immunity aimed at ensuring the independence of judicial review.

The Nation / Aug. 17, 2001

[Pattaya_Fox]

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thanks.

[bulmercke]

BREAKING NEWS

Seripisuth guarantees safety for Thaksin - BANGKOK POST - 21:06

National Police chief Seripisuth Temiyavej on Monday guaranteed safety for ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra if he is to return to Thailand on Valentine's Day.

Pol Gen Seripisuth said Mr Thaksin can even come back today, adding that police are ready to provide him protection.

He also vowed that police officers stay politically neutral and are not involved in the forming of a new government.

He added that he ordered police officers to prepare themselves well in case protests arise after official vote results are announced.

Official results are expected to be announced on Tuesday

'Strange' how an announcement like this - which is openly favourable to Thaksin - wasn't issued until PPP won.

Serious sxxt is going to hit the fan next year...that's for sure!

Edited December 24, 2007 by bulmercke

[Farangderthal]

'Strange' how an announcement like this - which is openly favourable to Thaksin - wasn't issued until PPP won.

Well, better late than never.

All's well that ends well.

[bulmercke]

'Strange' how an announcement like this - which is openly favourable to Thaksin - wasn't issued until PPP won.

Well, better late than never.

All's well that ends well.

Not so sure about that!

Despite the very tempered assurances by Samak and other PPP executives that they will play by the rules and allow due process to continue with regard to the affairs of Thaksin - this is plainly just 'pie in the sky'.

If something doesn't happen soon to the contrary - then Thaksin will be back with a vengeance.

The 'night of the long knives' springs to mind.

The ruling elite can't allow this to happen.

[Farangderthal]

If something doesn't happen soon to the contrary - then Thaksin will be back with a vengeance. The 'night of the long knives' springs to mind. The ruling elite can't allow this to happen.

I once thought like you (yesterday ) but I have since changed my mind.

Because the power of the ruling elite really isn't under threat, and Thaksin has been thoroughly put in place by the coup. Thaksin has nothing to gain from revenge; he's a business man, he wants to move forward amicably. Also the ruling elite will have come to understand by now that the coup solved nothing.

So personally I think a deal will be made; it IS the Thai way after all; So Thaksin will have a somewhat more subdued, low key return and will enter politics again only in the next round of elections. The military on their side will allow things to run; they effectively have cemented their position of power through the new constitution, they can let go a little again now, until someone else ever thinks he can actually run the country after winning an absolute majority.. Friend and foe now know that the true power isn't going anywhere.

In one word: Back to some sort of stability. (or 'balance', if you will)

[bulmercke]

If something doesn't happen soon to the contrary - then Thaksin will be back with a vengeance. The 'night of the long knives' springs to mind. The ruling elite can't allow this to happen.

I once thought like you (yesterday ) but I have since changed my mind.

A lot of un-intended humour there

Because the power of the ruling elite really isn't under threat, and Thaksin has been thoroughly put in place by the coup. Thaksin has nothing to gain from revenge; he's a business man, he wants to move forward amicably. Also the ruling elite will have come to understand by now that the coup solved nothing.

So personally I think a deal will be made; it IS the Thai way after all; So Thaksin will have a somewhat more subdued, low key return and will enter politics again only in the next round of elections. The military on their side will allow things to run; they effectively have cemented their position of power through the new constitution, they can let go a little again now, until someone else ever thinks he can actually run the country after winning an absolute majority.. Friend and foe now know that the true power isn't going anywhere.

In one word: Back to some sort of stability. (or 'balance', if you will)

Some good points Farangderthal - but I think you misunderstand Thaksin and those 'personal qualities' that got him (and the country) into the situation it is presently now in.

His avarice - ruthlessness - authoritarianism - was without exception -

In short - he was a greedy and ruthless dictator.

Now Thaksin and the PPP are playing nice guys. Perhaps it will be a year or two before we get to really see what this ominous PPP victory really entails.

[samsara]

...and yet another example of why democracy DOES NOT work, especially in a vastly uneducated society. it doesnt work in the US (citing last election) because people are too blind (uneducated) to actually vote about issues rather than sentiments (faith, nice guy status, etc.). the results in bkk are the PROPER results for this election. they are the common sense final cause of everything that has happened the past 2 years here. but your never question authority/short-term-gratification votes of Isaan have destroyed the mandate of the people. imo, this election shows the mandate of the thai people to be GIVE ME A BOTTLE OF MEKONG rather than GIVE ME A RULING PARTY THAT GIVES A SHIT. so sad.

I am surprised at how many people here equate being from a rural Thai background and of being ethnic Lao/Isaan with being uneducated; in reality, I am surprised at how many of you have assimilated the elite racism of the Bangkok (Sino) Thai elite.

Even the more remote areas of Thailand have a fairly high degree of literacy. I have spent my years in-country living amongst the rural populace and although they might be conservative and they might not be urbane, they, the Thai rural poor, are most certainly not uneducated. What they see, and what all you fellow Farangs with your fancy college degrees and you neo-sahib lifestyles aren't able to see is that none of the Thai political parties give a rat's derrière about the lives of the vast majority of the citizenry. So please tell me what is wrong with giving your vote to the political party that does toss you a bone as opposed to the party that does not toss you a bone? Is it not rational to give your vote to the party that even for a brief moment acknowledges your existence on the planet in hopes, almost a millenarian hope, that in the future other parties will follow suit in more substantial ways?

i dare say that one of the MAIN reasons why the political parties dont give a rats ass is because they dont have to. they KNOW they can just buy the votes or spout off some useless propaganda and the unsophisticated will believe.

being able to read is one thing; being able to scrutinize and read between the lines is an entirely different skill-set. america has the same problem. the uneducated there, too, are unable to see through the charade that is politics. im still in shock that people actually voted for bush in '04. just shocking, that was.

in the end, your main point may in fact render all this debate useless. for neither party will do anything to help the less fortunate unless its existence depends upon it. and that day is long in coming in thailand.

Edited December 24, 2007 by samsara

[Farangderthal]

A lot of un-intended humour there

Hey, what makes you think it was un-intended..! I am actually capable of some self-depreciating humour.

His avarice - ruthlessness - authoritarianism - was without exception -

Absolutely.

In short - he was a greedy and ruthless dictator.

I'm a bit hesitant to go into this because then it goes like this:

I say: "Dictator? How many dictators win successive landslide election victories? Authoritarian, absolutely, but just in the same vein as Berlusconi or Putin."

... Then someone else says: "But he just bought all his votes from the non-thinking monkeys in Isaan!"

... Then someone else again adds: "Yeah, well, Hitler also got elected!"

... Then I try to add "wait a minute, I'm not saying I *LIKE* Thaksin but I respect democracy more than all alternatives, especially those that involve tanks in the steets"

..but this is then somehow lost in the melee and the discussion goes round in a circle yet again.

(How's that for a summary..

Now Thaksin and the PPP are playing nice guys. Perhaps it will be a year or two before we get to really see what this ominous PPP victory really entails.

Sooner or later a lot of the factions in PPP will break off, and when that happens hopefully some political parties with an actual vision and agenda will be established. At that time the Democrats will also have a real shot at becomin a major player.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Farangderthal

[Jingthing]

then I try to add "wait a minute, I'm not saying I *LIKE* Thaksin but I respect democracy more than all alternatives, especially those that involve tanks in the steets"

Yeah, sure, but is what Thailand had under the Toxman and what it has now really democracy?

Edited December 24, 2007 by Jingthing

[Farangderthal]

Yeah, sure, but is what Thailand had under the Toxman and what it has now really democracy?

Let me answer that this way; bare with me because it's quoted a little too often:

<i>Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.</i>

I never liked Thaksin so much that I would consider advocating voting for him. But I also note that he gets a lot of unfair press, and people tend to disregard the good things he DID do, and that some of those things were an actual first for Thailand. Thaksin's make-up is that of a CEO. He runs the show, doesn't do criticism. That's fine when you run a company (or an internet forum ) you just tell people: "Hey, you don't like it, go work somewhere else!"

But, taking a step backward from that, I did see Thailand progress, as I've seen it progress greatly over the last 15 years, in typical '2 steps forward, 1 step back, a little to the side, turn around.. shuffle-shuffle.. But progress it did!

Then when all of that is thrown out the window (along with the VERY GOOD constitution of 1997 that was drafted with strong supervision and advocacy from the Democrat party) then I will ALWAYS come down on the side of people who got to power by gaining enough votes, not by people who got to power by gaining enough tanks and guns. It really is that simple. For me.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Farangderthal

[lukamar]

At that time the Democrats will also have a real shot at becomin a major player.

I would have thought the Democrats would have come up with a platform that would appeal to the people who hold the majority of the voting power, but... once again, they didn't. The came up with abstract ideas that the people in the North and Northeast just couldn't buy, grasp or understand. The PPP just took the ball from the last few games and ran with it, that's smart from a political view, you may agree or disagree with the approach and the message but the people understand it. We'll give you what we have given you in the past is much more appealing than the democrat's we'll give you all this stuff that we could have given you in the past when we were in power, but we didn't. By nature people will take something concrete that they can see like the 30 Bt health care and the village fund rather than a pipe drean like free education in 99 days. You don't have to be too bright to figure out they haven't managed to do that in 75 years let alone 99 days.

For the Democrats to win in the next election they should have started yesterday, but they constantly dig themselves into a hole and don't start wooing the voter until an election is called. They have had an opposition mentality for many years and until they can think like they are the government they will always be the also ran party.

And once again - ALL the parties buy votes not just the TRT/PPP.

[lukamar]

Yeah, sure, but is what Thailand had under the Toxman and what it has now really democracy?

Yes it was democracy under Thaksin. The people had the ability to vote him out of office at every election. They did not exercise this power, they did the opposite, they gave him more. The other parties also have to give the populous a reason to vote for them instead, something that never happened.

Time will tell if democracy had returned to the land, Martial law is still in place in 1/2 the country, the PPP half. I think the junta got caught with their pants around their ankles and did not expect the PPP to have nearly as much support as they had. Without the Military involvement, martial law and intimidation the PPP probably would have won a clear majority. The military also told the soldiers to vote other than PPP, my brother in law voted PPP anyway, He'll now probably never get to be a General.

[rychrde]

I disagree with part of what Plus road, especially his opinion that Thaksin is in the past and the people don't want him anymore.

Because that disregards the circumstances: PPP achieved victory IN SPITE OF having to campaign in the most difficult of circumstances; martial law in most of their support-base areas, severe intimidation and restrictions on campaigning, a military controlled smear campagin funded by public money.. And STILL they were victorious..

I dare say 'congratulations' are in order.

Thaksin certainly garnered a fair few million votes for the PPP. Sure Thaksin's popularity has gone down judging by the PPP and Dems both getting 14 million votes which wouldn't have happened a few years ago. To think Thaksin is a thing of the past is something people will do at their own risk. He is still the man of the moment in Thai politics and I wonder how many anti-thaksin people would actually prefer him to Samak as PM!

Interestingly I haven't seen a comment from Gen. Surayud or Gen. Sonthi yet.

Maybe the horse trading will lead to a 7 party Dem led coalition but that will be a very unstable and short lived government. Better that PPP get to lead for a while. Whatever kind of bizarre stuff went on in the election it is still the voice of the people at this time and they have clearly chosen the PPP. It is also good to see the Dems do better than expected and I agree with Bangkok Pundit on this one that they have something to be proud of especially after the low point of the Banyat led mess only 2 years ago. Maybe in a few more years Thailand will see a two party system evolve especially with all the alternative parties under-performing badly and all of them seeing big hitters lose out. If the warlord/family/interest group parties actually start to disintegrate that can only be a good thing for the country. Certainly this time most voters (28 million of them) chose one of 2 parties identified with a position rather than an opportunistic party just wanting to be in government. While I read of all the doom and gloom I personally think a number of good things have come out of this election that could auger well for Thai democracy in the future even if the short term future looks a bit dodgy.

Peace and here's to hoping no strange incidents occur

I think a 2-party system sucks - just look at the UK and USA. The proportional representation part of the election means other parties will usually get enough support for at least a handful of seats.

Also, if the Dems try to annul the election because of vote buying (apparently one statement like this was made on TV yesterday, possibly just sour grapes) it will blow up in their faces. Here in the boonies it was the Dems who were offering cash. Many took the money and voted PPP anyway. Others feared the election was not so anonymous so just avoided taking the money and voted PPP.

The other voting problem was that many people expected to see candidate names and parties on the ballot sheet, instead were faced with a page of numbers. Many hadn't a clue who to vote for!

Talking to some locals, they all seemed happy. They hadn't figured out that all the other parties could form a gov and leave PPP in the cold. Hope they won't be disappointed.

rych