Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[thaigene2]

Do you think he'll be offended? Does he read Thaivisa? In that case I apologise, come to think of it, he seems to get his opinions off Thaivisa anyway.

who's "he", Plus?

You said:

And quoting some Australian pandit: "What Thailand lacks is a culture of respect for the majority decision," - what a moron!

Thaksin or the Aussie Uni Professor? And more to the point, do you agree or disagree with the question?

DOES THAILAND LACK A CULTURE OF RESPECT FOR THE MAJORITY DECISION?

[Tony Clifton]

DOES THE PPP LACK A CULTURE OF RESPECT FOR THE COURTS DECISION?

[soundman]

DOES THAILAND LACK A CULTURE OF RESPECT FOR THE MAJORITY DECISION?

Herein lies the fundamental problem. The majority decision, if you can call it that in this election , is totally flawed through "money politics, promise them everything, get them into debt so they owe you, don't let them listen to anything but our rhetoric, the people voted for us, dissent will be quelled with brute force" type logic.

Not a good way for the country to go forward once, you have bought the people's mandate, to use the country like your own "billionaires boys club". Simply a game of chess to those guys pulling the strings.

Soundman.

[soundman]

Yes, well keep it up pro-coup, pro-elite types, the foreign media have now blasted this planet wide - and I reckon this Reuters report is spot on. You've lost the argument - but I doubt you've lost the war - sadly. Your friends with the long last names will win - I'm almost certain, since they are actually anti-international - except where it concerns their little brats' education of course...One can only hope the international biz elite vote with their feet and re-locate somewhere more 'friendly'.

Taxin is not "pro Elite type"?

[soundman]

DOES THE PPP LACK A CULTURE OF RESPECT FOR THE COURTS DECISION?

Remains to be seen Tony. If the court disbands PPP, they will morph into some other form, IMO. Sidestepping is an artform for some of these guys.

C- "Did you or did you not influence the house to raise tariffs on Japanese hot rolled steel products to benifit your recently aquired steel mill & subsequent contracts to the new airport?"

T- "No your honour. I can only state that my actions in closing petrol stations & department stores while extorting the maximum monetary penalty from late night club closures is the best way forward for this country."

C- "Get back to the subject at hand if you will."

T- We are on the subject at hand..... ummm ..... did I tell you how much money my relatives made out of major government construction projects last year?"

Nopadon - "Boss, shut up <deleted>, this is not the Thai Businessman of the year awards".

Soundman.

[HobbsTheFerociousTiger]

Taxin is not "pro Elite type" "

Indeed. Or perhaps equally valid: "the Elite are not pro Thaksin types".

Spelling it out more would perhaps start to traverse the boundaries of what we can discuss here, (not sure, but better safe than sorry) but trust me on this: when I and Thaigene and some other informed posters say 'elite', we mean elite.

We don't mean 'just any very wealthy individual or family' such as Thaksin or the Shinawatra family; we actually mean 'elite'.

Half the articles out there on Reuters, BBC, CNN and the like can't even be posted here because they break Forum rules. But then I guess most are happy with their quotes from The Nation.

Edited January 5, 2008 by HobbsTheFerociousTiger

[Plus]

Do you think he'll be offended? Does he read Thaivisa? In that case I apologise, come to think of it, he seems to get his opinions off Thaivisa anyway.

who's "he", Plus?

You said:

And quoting some Australian pandit: "What Thailand lacks is a culture of respect for the majority decision," - what a moron!

Thaksin or the Aussie Uni Professor? And more to the point, do you agree or disagree with the question?

DOES THAILAND LACK A CULTURE OF RESPECT FOR THE MAJORITY DECISION?

Obviously the Australian professor.

As for the question. Thailand is a big country with 65 million people. As a whole it weighs opinions of experts higher than the opinion of majority, just like any other society on Earth.

Having said that, I can give you lots of examples when "experts" still accepted clearly unpalatable election results - 1996, 2000, 2005 and 2007.

This "lack of respect for majority decision" is a figment of imagination, just as insinuations that unnamend generals exert pressure on EC to change the election outcome. It is theoretically possible but at the moment even Samak stresses EC's indedendence. Generals would do better job exerting pressure on would be coalition partners - they were supposed to stick with Democrats from the start, and they would still stick with Democrats if PPP deal falls through. Meddling with Supreme Court and EC is a roudnabout way of forming the government.

Another point is that majority decision is still not above the rule of law. If Thaksin was not fit to be PM, majority decision doesn't matter, if 90% approved of the drug war it didn't make killing thousands of people legitimate.

[Plus]

Spelling it out more would perhaps start to traverse the boundaries of what we can discuss here, (not sure, but better safe than sorry) but trust me on this: when I and Thaigene and some other informed posters say 'elite', we mean elite.

Duh, and didn't Thaksin hire Samak to stress that he is as "elite" as they come. Samak is ready to fry anyone into Phad Thai if he suggests there's any rift between "elite" and Thaksin. They publicised their beef with Prem but they won't dare to elaborate on this because that would involve lots of other big toes they don't want to go to war with.

Prem, after all, is not a single person, it's a "position", there will always be someone there for Thaksin to vent his anger at, in private.

Do you think they would ever mention in any of their public rallies that they are fighting with "elite"? No, but some posters here take it as a self revealing truth. "Dirty invisible hand" and "stupid question" is all you can get out of them.

[sriracha john]

Is the PPP a nominee? Is Samak a proxy of Thaksin?

They were since their very beginning in August... and despite warnings and forecasts of trouble, they persisted in these proclamations....

Veteran takes helm of People Power; key TRT figures also get party posts

Political veteran Samak Sundaravej yesterday said he did not mind being considered a nominee of Thaksin Shinawatra and vowed to restore the standing of the deposed prime minister after being elected leader of the People Power Party yesterday.

"I recognise the word 'nominee' positively because nominees have brought economic progress and prosperity to this country," Samak said.

"[in this case] I will be a nominee of Thaksin. I will make this party strong to restore the democracy of the country," he said.

The People Power Party plans to move headquarters from Don Mueang to the IFCT building, where the Thai Rak Thai had its offices. It is also adopting a new logo that is similar to Thai Rak Thai's logo.

People Power executive Suthin Klangsaeng admitted that some of the party executives elected yesterday were chosen by Thaksin.[/b] Former top Thai Rak Thai members sent a list of executives to Thaksin before the party assembly, he said.

"Yongyuth and Noppadon were approved by the former prime minister," he said.

Democrat executive Sathit Wongnongtoei said of Samak, "It's clear that he is Thaksin's nominee."

- The Nation

People Power Party leader Samak Sundaravej commenting on an allegation that he was Thaksin's political nominee, he said he saw no negative connotation in the term, and that it had no legal implications in civil, criminal or electoral laws.

- The Nation

Samak: No worries being Thaksin nominee

People's Power party governor Samak Sundaravej said Friday he is not worried he will get in trouble for acting as a nominee for ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra. His remark came after Election Commission member Sodsri Satayathum said Samak's stance on the nominee issue could land him in legal trouble.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=121257

Samak urged to tone it down

Dissension in the ranks of People's Power

Samak also said shortly after taking the PPP's helm that he did not mind working as the nominee of ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/13Sep2007_news99.php

Samak's loose talk could sink PPP

The PM candidate could be dooming his party and democracy's recovery by proclaiming himself a TRT proxy

At recent election rallies in the Northeast, he [samak] has openly announced that the dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra had now transformed into the PPP. While that is undeniably true, it was not necessarily the right thing to say.

We want him to stop making the provocative proclamation that he is just a Thaksin nominee.

This claim could land the new party in legal trouble and thus prolong the country's political mess.

Samak's claims must have given his opponents formidable ammunition. While everyone in the PPP is innocent because nobody in the new party has been charged in connection with Thaksin's alleged corruption or Thai Rak Thai's electoral fraud, Samak has unwittingly courted major trouble for the party he's supposed to lead.

While Samak's political ideology is no secret to anyone - his past oppressive role and close association with right-wing military-backed rulers remain an outstanding part of modern political history.

- The Nation Editorial

Buy one, get one free!

This old familiar marketing slogan has been adopted as the Palang Prachachon party's [People Power Party] latest campaign slogan, with a minor adjustment. "Choose Samak [sundaravej, the party leader], Get Thaksin [free of course]." The PPP's new campaign slogan, "Choose Samak, Get Thaksin", reinforces Samak's earlier admission that he is merely a nominee of the former PM. It also contradicts the repeated statements by Thaksin that he has washed his hands of politics.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Oct2007_news15.php

And after all of that (and much, much more not included)... comes this...

Meanwhile, PPP secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee said the party was ready to rebut charges it acted as a nominee for the banned Thai Rak Thai. The Supreme Court will hear the charges on January 15.

He denied the party was a proxy for the former prime minister and his disbanded Thai Rak Thai Party.

He said speculation that the party faced dissolution was tarnishing the country's reputation.

PPP legal adviser Sukhumpong Ngonkham anticipated no difficulties in proving the party was not a nominee.

"People Power leader Samak Sundaravej has never said he was a Thaksin proxy, and the party can prove his remarks may have been misconstrued," he said.

- The Nation

[jumnien]

The truth, of course, is that PPP is a nominee for TRT and Samak is a nominee for Thaksin. Samak is not very popular and is not well-respected; Thaksin is very popular and very well-respected by many, many Thais. By and large, people voting for PPP were voting for Thaksin and against the military junta, not for Samak.

It's very unfortunate that the military junta and their cronies refuse to allow the Thai people to choose their leaders openly.

If the US military stepped in and refused to allow Bill Clinton to campaign with Hillary, or have Hillary mention that she is married to Bill Clinton, or made Bill Clinton leave the country until after the election, or disqualified Hillary because she used to be married to Bill Clinton or met up with him in Hong Kong during her campaign, the US elections would be as pathetic as the Thai elections. Well, the US elections are pathetic, but that has been addressed ad nauseum on USVisa.com!

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

No one said Thaksin had to leave the country. That is Thaksin's decision alone. Of course if he returns he will be arrested and must stand trial. The international community would be watching. If the evidence is tainted as he suggests there would be no end to the uproar. Bill Clinton had sex with an intern. Had Bill Clinton been acused of corruption he would have gone down like Nixon. The Whitewater accusations were investigated by a Republican special prosecutor. He couldn't make it work even with the Republicans in control of the US House of Representatives.

Edited January 6, 2008 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[jumnien]

No one said Thaksin had to leave the country. That is Thaksin's decision alone. Of course if he returns he will be arrested and must stand trial. The international community would be watching. If the evidence is tainted as he suggests there would be no end to the uproar.

That's true, but why would the military junta reveal that the evidence is tainted? What motivation do they have?

[HobbsTheFerociousTiger]

1. The coup was planned specifically at a time when Thaksin was out of the country. (He was at the UN at the time) If the coup makers really wanted him, they could have made the coupe a day or so earlier, or later.

2. The "Democrat" party are yet again trying to derail the democratic process.. They can't win with votes, so they dry to get PPP banned. Of course PPP came about BECAUSE TRT was banned in a military sponsored show-trial. But this apparenlty was not enough for the "Democrats" they now want to ban the party that millions of people want to vote for.

The "Democrats" are a disgrace to Thailand.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

As in the recent case of the tourism ministry official, there are trails of money outside Thailand. The international press is very good at following these. If there is a hint of impropriety even in Thailand someone will leak it to the press along with documentation. The only thing being said thus far by all including the Australian professor is that the rule of law doesn't count if people vote to elect a tainted candidate. When I was in University I studied philosophy for a time. There was a professor in the department who was an avowed Marxist. He could always justify breeching the rule of law if it servered his political views. You will always find people on both sides of the debate.

[jumnien]

As in the recent case of the tourism ministry official, there are trails of money outside Thailand. The international press is very good at following these. If there is a hint of impropriety even in Thailand someone will leak it to the press along with documentation. The only thing being said thus far by all including the Australian professor is that the rule of law doesn't count if people vote to elect a tainted candidate. When I was in University I studied philosophy for a time. There was a professor in the department who was an avowed Marxist. He could always justify breeching the rule of law if it servered his political views. You will always find people on both sides of the debate.

All candidates, everywhere, are tainted! They are just not all Generals...

[Ricardo]

Do ThaiVisa posters lack a culture of respect for Thaksin ?

Even the majority of posters supporting Samak/PPP , and I do still expect them to form a weak coalition government next, seem to include the occasional mention that they recognise his corrupting influence and nature, and don't personally like him much. Cue for a poll, perhaps ?

[jumnien]

Do ThaiVisa posters lack a culture of respect for Thaksin ?

Even the majority of posters supporting Samak/PPP , and I do still expect them to form a weak coalition government next, seem to include the occasional mention that they recognise his corrupting influence and nature, and don't personally like him much. Cue for a poll, perhaps ?

I would say that most of us support a culture of respect for people who respect Thaksin to respect him. I would say respect is too strong a word for most of us in Thaksin's case. To say we "prefer" Thaksin to the military junta and their evil machinations would be more accurate.

[sriracha john]

Do ThaiVisa posters lack a culture of respect for Thaksin ?

Even the majority of posters supporting Samak/PPP , and I do still expect them to form a weak coalition government next, seem to include the occasional mention that they recognise his corrupting influence and nature, and don't personally like him much. Cue for a poll, perhaps ?

There's already one on Thaivisa...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...ic=6591&hl=

Thaksin Shinawatra, How Do You Feel About Him?, be honest, this is a serious poll

[marshbags]

1. The coup was planned specifically at a time when Thaksin was out of the country. (He was at the UN at the time) If the coup makers really wanted him, they could have made the coupe a day or so earlier, or later.

Yes sure.

This comment is typical of those that seemingly do not understand the reasons as to why and what was widely know in the upper circles regarding Thaksins ( imminant ) dishonest objectives and his counter planning of taking complete control of Thailand and it,s institutions that triggered the actions off in the first place.

Tyranny comes to mind and all that it implies.

2. The "Democrat" party are yet again trying to derail the democratic process.. They can't win with votes, so they dry to get PPP banned. Of course PPP came about BECAUSE TRT was banned in a military sponsored show-trial. But this apparenlty was not enough for the "Democrats" they now want to ban the party that millions of people want to vote for.

The "Democrats" are a disgrace to Thailand.

disgrace —n. 1 shame; ignominy. 2 shameful or very bad person or thing (bus service is a disgrace). —v. (-cing) 1 bring shame or discredit on. 2 dismiss from a position of honour or favour. in disgrace out of favour. [Latin: related to *dis-, *grace]

disgraceful adj. shameful; causing disgrace. disgracefully adv.

Seems to me you,ve got them mixed up with the PPP / TRT / Thaksin ect. ect. if you really mean " disgrace " in the true sense of the word

marshbags

Edited January 6, 2008 by marshbags

[Ricardo]

Do ThaiVisa posters lack a culture of respect for Thaksin ?

Even the majority of posters supporting Samak/PPP , and I do still expect them to form a weak coalition government next, seem to include the occasional mention that they recognise his corrupting influence and nature, and don't personally like him much. Cue for a poll, perhaps ?

I would say that most of us support a culture of respect for people who respect Thaksin to respect him. I would say respect is too strong a word for most of us in Thaksin's case. To say we "prefer" Thaksin to the military junta and their evil machinations would be more accurate.

I agree with & respect your right to prefer Thaksin, although I don't agree with your preference, myself. Have a good day !

[marshbags]

Do ThaiVisa posters lack a culture of respect for Thaksin ?

Even the majority of posters supporting Samak/PPP , and I do still expect them to form a weak coalition government next, seem to include the occasional mention that they recognise his corrupting influence and nature, and don't personally like him much. Cue for a poll, perhaps ?

I would say that most of us support a culture of respect for people who respect Thaksin to respect him. I would say respect is too strong a word for most of us in Thaksin's case. To say we "prefer" Thaksin to the military junta and their evil machinations would be more accurate.

I agree with & respect your right to prefer Thaksin, although I don't agree with your preference, myself. Have a good day !

Unfortunately selected members of the so called " political elite " and in particular Thaksins ilk take the meaning of the word into disrepute.

There are so many so called Puyai are out there, when in truth, they should either be incarcerated for crimes against both the state and it,s citizens or in certain well publicised cases, have already gone to serve their Karma in the hel_l they deserve and have rightly earned.

Pity the poor less fortunates who get / are serving years detention in multiples for what are in comparison " minor offences "

Not forgetting all those who have lost their lives for evil. indiscriminate objectives we are all familiar with.

marshbags

[Abrak]

Pity us....

Our options appear to be....

(1) A Samak/Thaksin led Government supported by the popular vote

(2) A continuation of the military junta either by default or newly imposed diktat

(3) No Government at all and continued prevarication....

I notice most Thais choose to ignore the whole thing and focus on angeline and brad's marital bliss....

[ando]

I believe the Democrat allegation is that the PPP is a nominee for the "TRT". Not, that Samak is a nominee for Thaksin. There is a profound difference when these things come before a court of law.

Unless the prosecution can show that the TRT still actually exists, (eg: minutes of meetings, bank accounts, membership lists, etc..), I cant see how they can prove a case. Maybe the whole thing is a political scam to scare the wavering smaller parties into the Democrats camp?

[Jingthing]

I believe the Democrat allegation is that the PPP is a nominee for the "TRT". Not, that Samak is a nominee for Thaksin. There is a profound difference when these things come before a court of law.

Unless the prosecution can show that the TRT still actually exists, (eg: minutes of meetings, bank accounts, membership lists, etc..), I cant see how they can prove a case. Maybe the whole thing is a political scam to scare the wavering smaller parties into the Democrats camp?

Good luck with that theory. Samak has said openly and publicly that he is a proxy for Thaksin.

[ando]

I believe the Democrat allegation is that the PPP is a nominee for the "TRT". Not, that Samak is a nominee for Thaksin. There is a profound difference when these things come before a court of law.

Unless the prosecution can show that the TRT still actually exists, (eg: minutes of meetings, bank accounts, membership lists, etc..), I cant see how they can prove a case. Maybe the whole thing is a political scam to scare the wavering smaller parties into the Democrats camp?

Good luck with that theory. Samak has said openly and publicly that he is a proxy for Thaksin.

I guessed you missed the point then.

[ando]

Who said the EC is above playing politics?

"Election commissioner Sodsri Satayatham yesterday threatened to delay the MP certification process and postpone the convening of parliament, if, as she suspected, the People Power party (PPP) organises a rally in Bangkok to put pressure on election officials. "

"She warned that if protesters rallied at the EC headquarters to pressure its officials, the commission would close its office.

With officials unable to carry out their tasks, parliament would not be able to convene, she said.

The law requires that a minimum of 95% of the total 480 House seats must be filled before parliament can convene."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/06Jan2008_news01.php

Note, there was no mention of any safety issue for the EC commissioners. Its quite obviously a tit for tat threat to silence public disapproval of the ECs actions. Very unprofessional to threaten to hold the country to ransom at this time when they should be getting on with their job in the public interest.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Supreme Court to rule whether PPP a nominee

The Supreme Court has scheduled next week to rule on whether three election related cases merit the judicial review.

In the first case, the high court will hand down the ruling on January 15 in the litigation raised by Democrat candidate Chaiwat Sinsuwong.

Chaiwat contends four legal issues - whether the People Power Party is qualified for the race as a nominee of the disbanded Thai Rak Thai party, whether People Power leader Samak Sundaravej is a proxy in the race, whether the advance voting is valid and whether the distribution of video CDs featuring former prime minister Thaksin Shinwatra is illegal.

Full article here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30061051

"I believe the Democrat allegation is that the PPP is a nominee for the "TRT". Not, that Samak is a nominee for Thaksin. There is a profound difference when these things come before a court of law.

Unless the prosecution can show that the TRT still actually exists, (eg: minutes of meetings, bank accounts, membership lists, etc..), I cant see how they can prove a case. Maybe the whole thing is a political scam to scare the wavering smaller parties into the Democrats camp?"

Samak was charged with acting as Thaksin's nominee.

Edited January 6, 2008 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Abrak]

What happens if 95% of the 480 seats are not filled...???

[hammered]

Looking right now whoever gets into power will be overseeing an utterly and maybe irreconcialably divided people and making sure their half (or 40% of 70%) gets what they want and the others lose out. A recipe for chaos in all likelihood. Any chance now for a voice of reason? When a country is as polarised as Thailand now is (and has been for a couple of years) there is a need for great stateman or two to put differences aside and try to bring harmony. If the respected representatives of the people on both sides continue to throw allegations and accusations against each other what chance is there of those that support them calming down. One wonders if maybe there is someone on each side who can just for one minute rise above the mud slinging and say hey we have to work this out together and bash their own side into line, not to mention actually set an example fo the ordinary parson. I have to say although not a fan of his I would personally have a lot of admiration for Mr. Thaksin if he were to actually call on the PPP to form a true government of national unity with a set agenda and not one full of the politcal whore parties and I would also think maybe old Chuan Leekpai should be thinking along these lines too. The alternatives do not look nice but in all reality that is what we will probably end up with.

[sriracha john]

Who said the EC is above playing politics?

"Election commissioner Sodsri Satayatham yesterday threatened to delay the MP certification process and postpone the convening of parliament, if, as she suspected, the People Power party (PPP) organises a rally in Bangkok to put pressure on election officials. "

"She warned that if protesters rallied at the EC headquarters to pressure its officials, the commission would close its office.

With officials unable to carry out their tasks, parliament would not be able to convene, she said.

The law requires that a minimum of 95% of the total 480 House seats must be filled before parliament can convene."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/06Jan2008_news01.php

Note, there was no mention of any safety issue for the EC commissioners.

That's not to say that situation can't change dramatically and quickly....

such as another time the TRT didn't like the EC... especially in light of PPP/TRT history of violence, closing the offices would be a prudent and safe course.

Around 2,000 people rallying outside the Election Commission's office Monday to protest vote counting instigated violence by setting ablaze a coffin with a banner attacking the commission for unfair treatment.

More than 300 anti-riot police were deployed to prevent possible chaos since some protesters appeared drunk and resisted the police's attempt to ease the tension.

- Xinhua / January 16, 2001

Edited January 6, 2008 by sriracha john