Regarding Bg's And Their "better" Half.

[Heng]

The thing is, these girls (and most Thais, Asians, etc.) typically view themselves and their families as one and the same. It just so happens that there is one zero cost marketable product left in those families. If all the old folks and brothers in this group of people could transform themselves into young female forms, I'd wager they'd all be hookers. It's a common denominator of lack of work ethic, lack of basic common sense in regards to finances (the kind where you don't even neeed to calculate anything other than knowing how much you make and how much you spend), and little or no self esteem.

[Totster]

Undoubtedly.  However, I had in mind the types of choices that involve the purchase of capital goods such as motorcycles, trucks, homes, etc. or taking out high/low interest loans to be spent on non income producing activities (such as drinking, gambling, etc.).   

You can also CHOOSE to be content with your low income and modest home.  These people aren't even homeless or starving.  These families all typically start out with homes, land often given to them at one time or another in the past by the government or passed down by their own families as inheritance... yet they choose to flush it down the toilet.  Can any expat or historian even remember if there has ever been a food shortage here?  You can make very little here and have a completely full stomach everyday of the year.  Rice (50 Baht for a cheap 5 kg bag, 150 Baht for the "good stuff" and fish sauce (15 Baht).  Is there any job that makes less than 1000 Baht a month here?

I agree, at the end of the day, they aren't starving.

I think Thai Bargirls are spoilt brats compared to some other nations.

If the Ukraine was hot and sunny, they would be just as well off too. But its not, its cold and miserable mostly, and people are hungry.

They don't know how lucky they are to have daft arsed falangs ploughing money their way. Then they still mess them about.

I've just checked out www.ukrainevisa.com

They have 3 members including the mods.

I agree with Dave...

Heng... why don't you swap your life with that of a poor farmer... this farmer earns every month, but it is barely enough to keep his family fed let alone anything else !

If all you could eat is rice everyday wouldn't you get bored of this, wouldn't you yearn for the opportunity to make a bit more money to have some rare luxuries.

Sure.. they're not starving, but it's no bed of roses either.

If in their situation I would lay in bed dreaming about having enough money to build a nice house, one that doesn't leak when it rains, maybe buy a few rai more to plant some more crops, send the Son/Daughter to school... buy a nice water pump..!!

And your comments about drinking and gambling... I like to drink, I also gamble on occasion... why shouldn't a Thai person want to do this, have some pleasures in their life.... sure I can afford it and I work hard for my wage, but I'll bet the Thai farmer works just as hard if not harder

I think Thai Bargirls are spoilt brats compared to some other nations.

What are you talking about...?? Are you refering to BG's liking nice clothes and mobile phones etc.. well why not...? they sold their "goods" and are quite within their rights to enjoy the benefits of their new found prosperity...

Now you've made some generalisations in your post's... I'm sure there are some families that follow the line you've written about, but I'll bet it's a minority...

Heng... I wonder if you've ever been to a village and seen where these girls come from...??

totster

[Heng]

Heng... why don't you swap your life with that of a poor farmer... this farmer earns every month, but it is barely enough to keep his family fed let alone anything else !

If all you could eat is rice everyday wouldn't you get bored of this, wouldn't you yearn for the opportunity to make a bit more money to have some rare luxuries.

Sure.. they're not starving, but it's no bed of roses either.

If in their situation I would lay in bed dreaming about having enough money to build a nice house, one that doesn't leak when it rains, maybe buy a few rai more to plant some more crops, send the Son/Daughter to school... buy a nice water pump..!!

And your comments about drinking and gambling... I like to drink, I also gamble on occasion... why shouldn't a Thai person want to do this, have some pleasures in their life.... sure I can afford it and I work hard for my wage, but I'll bet the Thai farmer works just as hard if not harder

Heng... I wonder if you've ever been to a village and seen where these girls come from...??

At one point in time, everyone had a family that farmed, hunted/gathered, etc., whether it was 50 years ago or 500 years ago. What happened next, over time, is that some people worked their way out of that, others chose behaviour that did not produce prosperity. What you see in these families (I don't mean this in a condescending way) is the latter. And there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is when they want to move up BUT don't want to put in the hard work, saving, and reinvestment required.

Of course I've been to these villages. Who do you think has to go and collect the interest payments on their debt or to foreclose on these properties? Are you now going to congratulate me for giving these people their shot at their "dream" at 5% interest?

[davethailand]

Thats rubbish though, some countries don't have the resources or money for every person to improve there life, no government hand outs, dole handouts etc.

[Heng]

If people can land on these shores (or any country for that matter) with absolutely nothing and prosper (without gov't help), then surely those who are already here should be able to do so.

[davethailand]

show me an example of a non thai coming here with absolutly nothing and prospering.

the poor families and people do survive but whats wrong with them having a drink or gambling, or wanting something better every now and then? a motorbike, a phone, should they not have things like this?

Quote

Of course I've been to these villages. Who do you think has to go and collect the interest payments on their debt or to foreclose on these properties? Are you now going to congratulate me for giving these people their shot at their "dream" at 5% interest?

what are you a money lender?

[Heng]

show me an example of a non thai coming here with absolutly nothing and prospering.

the poor families and people do survive but whats wrong with them having a drink or gambling, or wanting something better every now and then? a motorbike, a phone, should they not have things like this?

Quote

Of course I've been to these villages. Who do you think has to go and collect the interest payments on their debt or to foreclose on these properties? Are you now going to congratulate me for giving these people their shot at their "dream" at 5% interest?

what are you a money lender?

Any Chinese or Sikh family that came as immigrants and worked as laborers 40-150 years ago but now own swaths of the country as Thais.

[davethailand]

Whilst the other true thais are left to rot.

[Heng]

Whilst the other true thais are left to rot.

Such is natural selection the world over. There are prosperous indigenous Thais as well. The Chinese only control 80% of the wealth here. A good 20% is controlled by Thais and to a lesser extent other minorities, Indians and foreigners. Some people for some reason prefer to focus on the least prosperous group of Thais and feel that they somehow represent the majority.

[Totster]

The problem is when they want to move up BUT don't want to put in the hard work, saving, and reinvestment required.

Ok... these people do work very hard in the fields etc.... they have to in order to survive... saving and investment is fine as long as you've got excess capital to do this.... like I said before, when you can only just afford food and living costs how are you gonna be able to save and invest...???

totster

[Heng]

Ok... these people do work very hard in the fields etc.... they have to in order to survive... saving and investment is fine as long as you've got excess capital to do this.... like I said before, when you can only just afford food and living costs how are you gonna be able to save and invest...???

totster

Ever heard of resourcefulness? My point is that all people have been in this same situation at one time or another throughout the course of history. Surely there was some way out, yes?

[davethailand]

No, Not for everyone.

**** history we're talking about now and we're talking about Thailand,

Ok so say you live in the country in a tin shack, you have a couple of rice fields, your telling me you are going to be resourceful and make yourself into a successful businessman .

HOW????

[Totster]

Ok... these people do work very hard in the fields etc.... they have to in order to survive... saving and investment is fine as long as you've got excess capital to do this.... like I said before, when you can only just afford food and living costs how are you gonna be able to save and invest...??? 

totster 

Ever heard of resourcefulness? My point is that all people have been in this same situation at one time or another throughout the course of history. Surely there was some way out, yes?

Seems like they have been resourceful.... the BG's I mean...

totster

[meom]

Seems like they have been resourceful.... the BG's I mean...

totster

Agreed; and some of them do work hard and manage to send money home and give their family a bit better life.

[Heng]

No, Not for everyone.

**** history we're talking about now and we're talking about Thailand,

Ok so say you live in the country in a tin shack, you have a couple of rice fields, your telling me you are going to be resourceful and make yourself into a successful businessman .

HOW????

It's this kind of impatience and not being satisfied with what they have that contributes to people ending up as bargirls.

But really, instead of farming himself, he could delegate the field work to family members and focus instead on the sales side of farming. Farmers aren't all piss poor, you know. There are definitely classes of farmers, and the focus should be on working their way up those classes first... perhaps on to milling, distribution, transport, etc.... over the course of 5-10-50 years. The first generation crew over at CP Group focused on farming businesses for the entire generation.... they didn't dream of launching telecoms satellites because it wasn't time to do so. If it's not affordable yet to own a mobile phone or a Honda Dream, then it's not time yet.

[davethailand]

"It's this kind of impatience and not being satisfied with what they have that contributes to people ending up as bargirls"

Thats possibly the stupidist comment i've heard all day.

[Heng]

Now there's a well thought out contribution to this discussion.

[medicinebox]

I think Thai Bargirls are spoilt brats compared to some other nations.

What are you talking about...?? Are you refering to BG's liking nice clothes and mobile phones etc.. well why not...? they sold their "goods" and are quite within their rights to enjoy the benefits of their new found prosperity...

Yes Totty, but you took one line out of its context.

I was saying that at least they have plenty of 'customers' to sell their 'goods' to.

The Ukraine has not so many.

On both counts, I would imagine you have hookers for locals and hookers for 'visitors' from other countries. Two tier pricing maybe. True they can all sell it, but cleverer ones would sell it to the highest bidders, and they do.

[Family Values]

Thats rubbish though, some countries don't have the resources or money for every person to improve there life, no government hand outs, dole handouts etc.

Yeah and tight-arsed employers paying less than BT4000 a month

[Totster]

But really, instead of farming himself, he could delegate the field work to family members and focus instead on the sales side of farming. Farmers aren't all piss poor, you know. There are definitely classes of farmers, and the focus should be on working their way up those classes first... perhaps on to milling, distribution, transport, etc.... over the course of 5-10-50 years. The first generation crew over at CP Group focused on farming businesses for the entire generation.... they didn't dream of launching telecoms satellites because it wasn't time to do so. If it's not affordable yet to own a mobile phone or a Honda Dream, then it's not time yet.

Don't you think the rest of the family don't help...??

If the famer has got money he is not really the typical farmer who manages to scrape an existance from a couple of rai..

This famer knows only how to farm his crop... how is he going to gain the expertise in another field of his industry... it cost money, money he hasn't got, he farms his crop because he has to to survive... not so he can make money to expand his business... it's just not an option.

totster

[Totster]

I think Thai Bargirls are spoilt brats compared to some other nations.

What are you talking about...?? Are you refering to BG's liking nice clothes and mobile phones etc.. well why not...? they sold their "goods" and are quite within their rights to enjoy the benefits of their new found prosperity...

Yes Totty, but you took one line out of its context.

I was saying that at least they have plenty of 'customers' to sell their 'goods' to.

The Ukraine has not so many.

On both counts, I would imagine you have hookers for locals and hookers for 'visitors' from other countries. Two tier pricing maybe. True they can all sell it, but cleverer ones would sell it to the highest bidders, and they do.

Sorry if I got it wrong.... did you mean they are spoiled for choice....??

Even if you meant this...I still don't think so, it's a very competitive market...but I admit they do have it "better" than some countries.

totster

[Heng]

Tot, you're applying stipulations to an already hypothetical situation. In families that do not work together, the going will be that much tougher, naturally.

I'm not saying life's a bed of roses for these folks. I'm saying these are not the first poor people in the history of the world. It IS possible to move up in the world, no matter how impossible it may seem. Those here in the LOS are even more fortunate that they have an agrarian society as their foundation. From the riches to the poorest here, people have easy access to food, water, shelter, and liveable temperature, etc.

It doesn't take money to buy common sense. I think some guys here apparently don't want to admit that many of these girls went into prostitution because some old Nokia or Toyota commercial excited someone enough to go out and buy a product that they couldn't afford.

[davethailand]

Thats rubbish though, some countries don't have the resources or money for every person to improve there life, no government hand outs, dole handouts etc.

Yeah and tight-arsed employers paying less than BT4000 a month

Not in my place.

crawled out from under your stone i see.

[kitty]

I did start a post on this but its gone

IMHO i really don't think many english men would be with a prostitute in england.

The men who marry thai bar girls,well.....maybe were the same men who said back in england "prostitutes are dirty *****"

However, why does the fact that these woman are selling themselves seem to be acceptable because their thai, in thailand?

Im sorry but its not acceptable in england and is regarded as a disrespectful way to treat yourself, why do men feel for thai prostitutes?they are doing the same thing....

We all have choices on our life, and if they want to be bar girls then fine but i dont care how poor i was, i would never degrade myself to sleeping with a stranger for money.(i dont even sleep with strangers for fun )

[jhj2000]

IMHO i really don't think many english men would be with a prostitute in england.

Have you not seen the adverts in telephone boxes or newspapers in the U.K. There are proberbly as many brothels in Brighton as there are Brighton Rock stalls.

Its just more open in Thailand.

[Heng]

why do men feel for thai prostitutes?

They need to rationalize/justify their choice of life partner (and foreigners are more likely to marry prostitutes here in Thailand than in their home countries). Nothing wrong with sticking up for the one you love/the mother of your children. Although as you can see, their arguments are often quite irrational.

[davethailand]

why do men feel for thai prostitutes?

They need to rationalize/justify their choice of life partner (and foreigners are more likely to marry prostitutes here in Thailand than in their home countries). Nothing wrong with sticking up for the one you love/the mother of your children. Although as you can see, their arguments are often quite irrational.

I do not class my wife as an ex-prostitute.

They need to rationalize/justify their choice of life partner

And i certainly don't need to justify anything I do to people on this forum.

I'm beginning to smell a troll here or just a very negative person, if you live in Thailand, Why are you here when all you do is criticize the thai people for not being as successful as others?

[jhj2000]

One of the unwritten rules in the Thai community in any country is that the past is forgotten and that is a good way to start a new life with your partner.

[davethailand]

Its a shame that alot of people in this forum can't live by that rule.

I for one, can

[Heng]

why do men feel for thai prostitutes?

They need to rationalize/justify their choice of life partner (and foreigners are more likely to marry prostitutes here in Thailand than in their home countries). Nothing wrong with sticking up for the one you love/the mother of your children. Although as you can see, their arguments are often quite irrational.

I do not class my wife as an ex-prostitute.

They need to rationalize/justify their choice of life partner

And i certainly don't need to justify anything I do to people on this forum.

I'm beginning to smell a troll here or just a very negative person, if you live in Thailand, Why are you here when all you do is criticize the thai people for not being as successful as others?

I certainly didn't call your wife an ex-prostitute. Mine was a general comment towards those who rationalize the legitimacy of prostitution as the defacto way out of a "difficult" situation in the LOS.

It's the same critique that people (both locals and 'langs) have here for the government and 'haves' (as opposed to have nots) of Thai society. I am merely adjusting the light and blame towards where I think it belongs. People being responsible for themselves, making their own choices.