Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:06 PM, scorecard said:

He'll invent another subject to upset folks. 

 

I suppose you will say I invented Thailand taxing remitted funds to foreigners in Thailand as well. 

 

If I was to post a link about it, and you read it, you would then label the post as scaremongering, despite the media source in the link being credible.  No discussion from you on the issue.  No plan.  No strategy.  No tax minimization ideas.  No further information.  No, you just personally attack the messenger and hope the message goes away.  

Edited November 10, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 11/8/2023 at 2:09 PM, scorecard said:

Perhaps you could wait a bit (or a long time) until there's total clarity and understanding of this subject. 

 

Or, just wait until you go to transfer your pension one day and see there is 32.5% less money and then complain why you were not informed of the new changes. 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

15 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Put simply, the previous Liberal government proposed changes to 90 year old residency for taxation purposes laws.  The current Labor government are aware of the changes, with the assistant treasurer stating they are in the government's "in tray." Link already provided.

 

The changes go from "maintaining a domicile in Australia" and "intention to return to Australia" both of which are difficult for the government to prove, to laws based on "physical presence" and "time" in Australia.  The times being considered are 45 days and 183 days. 

 

Basically, if you are outside Australia for 183 days, and most Aussie expats in Thailand are, you will be deemed a non resident for tax purposes, and your pension, which is also deemed an income, MAY be taxed at the non resident tax rate of 32.5%.  In relation to pensions, rather than the payer then trying to collect, they may just withhold 32.5% of one's pension because immigration has informed Centerlink they have been outside of Australia for 183 days.  

 

No one is forcing pensioners to return to Australia, but pensioners have to consider if they can still remain in Thailand on 32.5% less income, or, return to Australia for 45 days and meet a couple of other simple criteria each year, or do the 183 days in Australia each year. 

 

As the proposed laws stand, there is no provision to add a tax free threshold to non resident tax brackets, and there's no mention of exemption, or asset / means testing. 

 

Plenty of links, quotes, youtube videos have been posted about it. 

 

I thought we dodged a bullet in the May budget for a start on the 1st July this year, but as other members have posted, it's looking like the 1st July 2024 may be the start day. 

 

Add to this, the Thai governments announcement that they will be taxing remitted funds into the accounts of foreigners, this may also put financial pressure on Aussie expats here as well. 

Thanks mate - much appreciated. Ever since that Covid disaster,  Govts all over the world are looking for more money - and to pay out less.

 

However, in order to make this happen, the Aust Govt would have to pass a Law that makes age pensions received by people who are residing overseas taxable. As it currently stands, the age pension is not taxable - even if it is over the tax free threshold. It is counted as income, but only for anyone receiving additional income beyond the pension. Therefore to make this happen, the rules/laws would have to be changed specifically for pensioners living overseas - that would IMO be discrimination and illegal.   

 

If this goes ahead, I can see a challenge being lodged to AAT, and then to the Federal Courts, and then to the UN under the International Social Security Agreement of which Australia is a signatory. Australia already reduces the amount of money paid to Pensioners living overseas, and further reduces that amount based upon the number of years that person lived in Australia, and only allows applications to be made by persons actually living in Australia at that time (most countries do not impose those limitations).  IMO this would be a step too far and is legally doubtful under both Australia's existing laws and its international obligations. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

I suppose you will say I invented Thailand taxing remitted funds to foreigners in Thailand as well. 

 

 

Yes mate - myself and several others were attacked as being just that back in September when this first surfaced - we were accused of being scaremongers and doomsayers.  Idiotic commenst like 'it will never happen' and 'what a load of khrapp' were numerous and that was fine - but they also attacked the messengers.  We all said things like 'well just ignore us and go away then' - but given they are just so negative and 'ugly' they just kept attacking (until blocked).  Now we are in November and mutliple media stories have been saying that this is real and it is going tpo hgappen and they should postpone this etc etc etc.  Unblocked the aholes and looked - but not one word saying anything like 'maybe you guys were right' or 'ooops I got that wrong'. The only way to deal with those people, who are the Expat nutters we avoid in public, is to ignore them (walk away).

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks mate - much appreciated. Ever since that Covid disaster,  Govts all over the world are looking for more money - and to pay out less.

 

However, in order to make this happen, the Aust Govt would have to pass a Law that makes age pensions received by people who are residing overseas taxable. As it currently stands, the age pension is not taxable - even if it is over the tax free threshold. It is counted as income, but only for anyone receiving additional income beyond the pension. Therefore to make this happen, the rules/laws would have to be changed specifically for pensioners living overseas - that would IMO be discrimination and illegal.   

 

If this goes ahead, I can see a challenge being lodged to AAT, and then to the Federal Courts, and then to the UN under the International Social Security Agreement of which Australia is a signatory. Australia already reduces the amount of money paid to Pensioners living overseas, and further reduces that amount based upon the number of years that person lived in Australia, and only allows applications to be made by persons actually living in Australia at that time (most countries do not impose those limitations).  IMO this would be a step too far and is legally doubtful under both Australia's existing laws and its international obligations. 

IMO there is much more low-hanging fruit available by going after multinationals who have been rorting the tax system for decades. The changes to the superannuation system, which limits the tax concessions to wealthy retirees, are an indicator of the direction Labor wants to go.

 

Of course, if the Coalition gets re-elected, war on the poor will resume.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO there is much more low-hanging fruit available by going after multinationals who have been rorting the tax system for decades. The changes to the superannuation system, which limits the tax concessions to wealthy retirees, are an indicator of the direction Labor wants to go.

 

Of course, if the Coalition gets re-elected, war on the poor will resume.

Lets not get political - the 'real enemy' is not the politicians of either side.

I was hoping people would see that after Covid, but yet again 'they' have evaded accountability and blame.

'They' are the people who worldwide never lost their job, nor even a day's pay, during the Covid disaster.

And yet they are the ones that caused most of the problems.

 

The main problem is the huge amount of pensioners living overseas - most of whom started doing that in the 70s and 80s.

They did it before Aust realised what was going on, and before the rules were made about portability and qualification etc. 

Over 100,000 immigrants who came to Australia in the decade after WW2 (like myself as a kid) worked in Aust for 15-20+ years and then when they got the pension (at 60) they returned to their villages back home (why not) - and many are still getting the pension. 

The largest number of pensioners overseas are Italians, then Greeks, then Kiwis.  It became a thing to do - Kiwis are still doing it - they would come to Aust and work - then go back to the village when they get the pension - many still get it - the number of Aust pensioners living in SEAsia is small compared to those numbers.

Australia has been clamping down since 1990s - but it was too late - they now have to wait until they pass away because (unless they come back) they are entitled to receive what they got back when the rules were the way they were (cannot do a retrospective change).

And because of the large number of 'dead ones' still getting the pension money, they started introducing rules such as proof of life. 

Massive failure by ignorant politicians and 'those' is causing this potential disaster for us now.

 

[Olmate]

32 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Yes mate - myself and several others were attacked as being just that back in September when this first surfaced - we were accused of being scaremongers and doomsayers.  Idiotic commenst like 'it will never happen' and 'what a load of khrapp' were numerous and that was fine - but they also attacked the messengers.  We all said things like 'well just ignore us and go away then' - but given they are just so negative and 'ugly' they just kept attacking (until blocked).  Now we are in November and mutliple media stories have been saying that this is real and it is going tpo hgappen and they should postpone this etc etc etc.  Unblocked the aholes and looked - but not one word saying anything like 'maybe you guys were right' or 'ooops I got that wrong'. The only way to deal with those people, who are the Expat nutters we avoid in public, is to ignore them (walk away).

'Aholes and nutters'!, steady on. They held.a different view would be sufficient

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Lets not get political - the 'real enemy' is not the politicians of either side.

I was hoping people would see that after Covid, but yet again 'they' have evaded accountability and blame.

'They' are the people who worldwide never lost their job, nor even a day's pay, during the Covid disaster.

And yet they are the ones that caused most of the problems.

 

The main problem is the huge amount of pensioners living overseas - most of whom started doing that in the 70s and 80s.

They did it before Aust realised what was going on, and before the rules were made about portability and qualification etc. 

Over 100,000 immigrants who came to Australia in the decade after WW2 (like myself as a kid) worked in Aust for 15-20+ years and then when they got the pension (at 60) they returned to their villages back home (why not) - and many are still getting the pension. 

The largest number of pensioners overseas are Italians, then Greeks, then Kiwis.  It became a thing to do - Kiwis are still doing it - they would come to Aust and work - then go back to the village when they get the pension - many still get it - the number of Aust pensioners living in SEAsia is small compared to those numbers.

Australia has been clamping down since 1990s - but it was too late - they now have to wait until they pass away because (unless they come back) they are entitled to receive what they got back when the rules were the way they were (cannot do a retrospective change).

And because of the large number of 'dead ones' still getting the pension money, they started introducing rules such as proof of life. 

Massive failure by ignorant politicians and 'those' is causing this potential disaster for us now.

 

What are the actual numbers of pensioners living overseas, vs those retired in Australia?

When I see a blanket statement like "huge amount of pensioners living overseas " my BS radar goes on full alert. Along with "large number of dead ones".

Factual data, please.

[The Cyclist]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

What are the actual numbers of pensioners living overseas, vs those retired in Australia?

When I see a blanket statement like "huge amount of pensioners living overseas " my BS radar goes on full alert. Along with "large number of dead ones".

Factual data, please.

 

This is probably the closest you will get

 

Quote

While the exact number is hard to pin down, industry estimates put the total number of Australian retirees living overseas at around 90,000 in 2016 and the figure is likely to have increased.

 

https://www.superguide.com.au/retirement-planning/retiring-overseas-implications-super-tax

 

Compared with 2.6 million pensioners in Australia

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by The Cyclist
wrong figures

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This is probably the closest you will get

 

 

https://www.superguide.com.au/retirement-planning/retiring-overseas-implications-super-tax

 

Compared with 2.6 million pensioners in Australia

 

 

Let's be generous and double that figure of 90,000 from 2016.

Equals 6.5% of the total number of OAP recipients.

Not quite a "huge amount", is it?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, Lacessit said:

Let's be generous and double that figure of 90,000 from 2016.

Equals 6.5% of the total number of OAP recipients.

Not quite a "huge amount", is it?

 

Mahoosive 

[LosLobo]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This is probably the closest you will get

 

 

https://www.superguide.com.au/retirement-planning/retiring-overseas-implications-super-tax

 

Compared with 2.6 million pensioners in Australia

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Let's be generous and double that figure of 90,000 from 2016.

Equals 6.5% of the total number of OAP recipients.

Not quite a "huge amount", is it?

The link doesn't take into account that 500k or half of all expats returned to Australia just in the first 12 months of COVID when the borders were being locked, I suggest that the number of retirees may not have increased if at all and may possibly be less.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

 

The link doesn't take into account that 500k or half of all expats returned to Australia just in the first 12 months of COVID when the borders were being locked, I suggest that the number of retirees may not have increased if at all and may possibly be less.

If we halve the 2016 figure, it becomes less than 2%. Which is a drop in the bucket.

[scorecard]

9 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

This is probably the closest you will get

 

 

https://www.superguide.com.au/retirement-planning/retiring-overseas-implications-super-tax

 

Compared with 2.6 million pensioners in Australia

 

 

 

So I'm lost, out of all this data what's the estimate of Aussies living abroad on (only) the old age pension?

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

So I'm lost, out of all this data what's the estimate of Aussies living abroad on (only) the old age pension?

Somewhere between 2% and 6.5% of pensioners.

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks mate - much appreciated. Ever since that Covid disaster,  Govts all over the world are looking for more money - and to pay out less.

The Australian economy had been in poor shape prior to covid.  Soon to hit $1 Trillion in debt, for a country with a population of only 28 million people.

 

23 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

However, in order to make this happen, the Aust Govt would have to pass a Law that makes age pensions received by people who are residing overseas taxable. As it currently stands, the age pension is not taxable - even if it is over the tax free threshold. It is counted as income, but only for anyone receiving additional income beyond the pension. Therefore to make this happen, the rules/laws would have to be changed specifically for pensioners living overseas - that would IMO be discrimination and illegal.   

 

No, you are wrong.  Pensioners should have always been paying non resident tax on their pensions. 

 

The proposed changes are not new laws, they just make it easier for the government to collect what should have already been paid for decades, but loopholes seen many slip through the net. 

 

This link comes from an ATO staff member.  Dated December 2021. 

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380

 

23 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If this goes ahead, I can see a challenge being lodged to AAT, and then to the Federal Courts, and then to the UN under the International Social Security Agreement of which Australia is a signatory. Australia already reduces the amount of money paid to Pensioners living overseas, and further reduces that amount based upon the number of years that person lived in Australia, and only allows applications to be made by persons actually living in Australia at that time (most countries do not impose those limitations).  IMO this would be a step too far and is legally doubtful under both Australia's existing laws and its international obligations. 

No.  If that was the case, it would have happened decades ago.

 

As mentioned, the proposed changes are not new laws, just a new way of enforcing the existing laws.  They close loopholes that thousands have been using for decades. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

22 hours ago, Lacessit said:

IMO there is much more low-hanging fruit available by going after multinationals who have been rorting the tax system for decades.

So, a multinational company with a whole floor of lawyers and accountants in their HQ are low hanging fruit. 

 

Then, you have their threat to government that if they tax them, they'll move their operation offshore and put plenty out of work, and what do workers pay, income tax. 

[Olmate]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The Australian economy had been in poor shape prior to covid.  Soon to hit $1 Trillion in debt, for a country with a population of only 28 million people.

 

No, you are wrong.  Pensioners should have always been paying non resident tax on their pensions. 

 

The proposed changes are not new laws, they just make it easier for the government to collect what should have already been paid for decades, but loopholes seen many slip through the net. 

 

This link comes from an ATO staff member.  Dated December 2021. 

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380

 

No.  If that was the case, it would have happened decades ago.

 

As mentioned, the proposed changes are not new laws, just a new way of enforcing the existing laws.  They close loopholes that thousands have been using for decades. 

 

 Groan... your out on weekend leave again!! 

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Yes mate - myself and several others were attacked as being just that back in September when this first surfaced - we were accused of being scaremongers and doomsayers.  Idiotic commenst like 'it will never happen' and 'what a load of khrapp' were numerous and that was fine - but they also attacked the messengers.  We all said things like 'well just ignore us and go away then' - but given they are just so negative and 'ugly' they just kept attacking (until blocked).  Now we are in November and mutliple media stories have been saying that this is real and it is going tpo hgappen and they should postpone this etc etc etc.  Unblocked the aholes and looked - but not one word saying anything like 'maybe you guys were right' or 'ooops I got that wrong'. The only way to deal with those people, who are the Expat nutters we avoid in public, is to ignore them (walk away).

There's a lot of psychology around it.

 

People don't like change, or anything that upsets their routine.  This is more pronounced as people get older. 

 

Add to that a change that can cost them money, particularly from the tax man, and they are looking only for the reasons why it can't / won't happen, even whilst it's actually happening. 

 

Put simply, people just don't want to hear it, even when they know it effects them. 

 

The Ostrich Syndrome. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, Olmate said:

 Groan... your out on weekend leave again!! 

Troll.  (not reported) 

[KhunHeineken]

12 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

So I'm lost, out of all this data what's the estimate of Aussies living abroad on (only) the old age pension?

Why not include those on part pensions also? 

Edited November 12, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, a multinational company with a whole floor of lawyers and accountants in their HQ are low hanging fruit. 

 

Then, you have their threat to government that if they tax them, they'll move their operation offshore and put plenty out of work, and what do workers pay, income tax. 

Nonsense. Australia is too rich a hunting ground for multinationals to give up the profits they make here. If their bluff was called, plenty of other organizations would be falling over themselves to fill the void.

 

Perhaps you have not noticed how PwC is being dismembered, and the other Big 4 auditors are running scared.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

22 hours ago, Olmate said:

'Aholes and nutters'!, steady on. They held.a different view would be sufficient

I am talking about posters who personally abused me and others who said it was 'real' - aholes and nutters.  It was not that they held a different view - many posters did that, but they were not blocked - these few I blocked were abusive trolls (aholes and nutters).  

[Olmate]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Troll.  (not reported) 

Happy to be of service😂

[Olmate]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I am talking about posters who personally abused me and others who said it was 'real' - aholes and nutters.  It was not that they held a different view - many posters did that, but they were not blocked - these few I blocked were abusive trolls (aholes and nutters).  

Forum rules not for you then? 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

There's a lot of psychology around it.

 

People don't like change, or anything that upsets their routine.  This is more pronounced as people get older. 

 

Add to that a change that can cost them money, particularly from the tax man, and they are looking only for the reasons why it can't / won't happen, even whilst it's actually happening. 

 

Put simply, people just don't want to hear it, even when they know it effects them. 

 

The Ostrich Syndrome. 

Yes Indeed - that definitely applies to many older blokes. 

[scorecard]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes Indeed - that definitely applies to many older blokes. 

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Posted 1 minute ago

  15 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

There's a lot of psychology around it.

 

People don't like change, or anything that upsets their routine.  This is more pronounced as people get older. 

 

Add to that a change that can cost them money, particularly from the tax man, and they are looking only for the reasons why it can't / won't happen, even whilst it's actually happening. 

 

Put simply, people just don't want to hear it, even when they know it effects them. 

 

The Ostrich Syndrome.  

Yes Indeed - that definitely applies to many older blokes. 

 

Now kh.heiniken is a psychologist as well as an economist and more...

 

But I still have him on ignore.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Australia is too rich a hunting ground for multinationals to give up the profits they make here.

With only 28 million people, yeah, right. 

 

17 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

If their bluff was called, plenty of other organizations would be falling over themselves to fill the void.

Have you forgotten about Australia's rapidly shrinking manufacturing industry?

 

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps you have not noticed how PwC is being dismembered, and the other Big 4 auditors are running scared.

You have no idea.

 

PwC got in the sh*t because they were "consulted" by the government on tax matters, and then gave their own clients inside information on what the government was planning in relation to tax, so their clients could either maximize profits, or minimize their tax position.    

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, scorecard said:

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Posted 1 minute ago

  15 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

There's a lot of psychology around it.

 

People don't like change, or anything that upsets their routine.  This is more pronounced as people get older. 

 

Add to that a change that can cost them money, particularly from the tax man, and they are looking only for the reasons why it can't / won't happen, even whilst it's actually happening. 

 

Put simply, people just don't want to hear it, even when they know it effects them. 

 

The Ostrich Syndrome.  

Yes Indeed - that definitely applies to many older blokes. 

 

Now kh.heiniken is a psychologist as well as an economist and more...

 

But I still have him on ignore.

 

 

Yet, you persist with personally attacking me, despite ignoring me.  Perhaps some dementia setting in.  You forgot that you ignored me. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes Indeed - that definitely applies to many older blokes. 

The Ostrich Syndrome is similar to the My girl is different syndrome. 

 

People need to believe that they are still an Australian resident for taxation purposes, despite living in Thailand for years.   

 

They really need to think they are "different" to Paul Hogan.