Will There Be Silence?

[ThaiPauly]

This is a hot topic at the moment as the derby is 4 days after the 50th anniverssary of the Munich air disaster.

As I read it City have asked United to have a minutes applause instead because they are fearful that a minority of their fans will ignore it and this could lead to serious problems at the game and for years to come.

So far United have not responded indicating that they wan tand expect silence.

So as there are plenty of City and United fans on this forum

Whats gonna happen?????????

[mrbojangles]

I hope there will be silence TP.

[PhilHarries]

Silence or applause I just hope there will be concensus and past and present rivalries put aside for just 60 seconds.

But silence is the right thing to do and it is a crying shame that the game is now being jerked around by a small bunch of meat heads.

[pattayarangers]

I agree ...for 60 seconds forget rivalry and respect the minutes silence.......

[ThaiPauly]

I REALLY hope this happens...maybee the future of Manchester depends on it.

It HAS to be silence..nothing else is acceptable IMHO

[kopite]

taken from a citeh forum

The derby match on Feb 10th, as we now know, will be used by Manchester United to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ****** air crash. This is because it is your nearest home game to the actual anniversary itself. There are some concerns that the proposed minute's silence will not be honoured by City fans and the overwhelming majority of us are horrified by that prospect. Most of us are decent people who love a bit of banter but know where to draw the line.

I know that the tragedy affected everyone in Manchester at the time and it was fairly common for fans to visit Old Trafford and Maine Road on consecutive weeks, regardless of their main allegiance. My grandfather was a red but often went to Maine Road. One of the fans who died was a great friend of my uncle's so it hit my family directly.

Those were different times and we all know that things have not changed wholly for the better in the world of football over the intervening 50 years.

However, even decent people like me (and the majority on here) are getting a bit fed up with the sanctimonious rubbish coming out of your club.

I sincerely hope we will respect the dead but how have your club done that over the years? Let me give you a few examples.

Many of the players who died had club houses and their families were apparently turfed out of those houses after a decent interval. Johnny Berry survived the crash but was so badly affected that he didn't play again and was also thrown out of his club-owned house a year later. Jackie Blanchflower's daughter (he survived) summed up the feeling of the families when she supposedly said "Were the ones that died the ones that got away with it?"

In 1997, the survivors got together to formulate a plan to ask the club for some compensation, via a benefit game. This went ahead in August 1998 and each family got £47,000. Eric Cantona came over for the game and is believed to have charged over £90,000 travel and accomodation expenses for his entourage. So Cantona, presumably not a poor man, got TWICE as much out of it as each of the families.

The club charges people to see an exhibition which made nearly £2m in 2006 and supposedly none of the money goes to the families. They have sold a vast quantity of merchandise over the years and apparently not a single penny has gone to the families.

Ray Wood, the goalkeeper at the time of the disaster said "They received massive international support following the disaster. But they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."

I hope to god that things go well on the day and it is remembered both for the football and the dignity of the event. But your club has been disrespecting those who died virtually every day for the last 50 years. That's more than 25 million minutes. Direct your anger at them.

[mrbojangles]

Some interesting facts there Kopite, that i for one wasn't aware of

[kopite]

heres another one

Munich

6 February 1958

The remarkable sequence of events that led to the crash-landing of a highly sophisticated British Airways’ Boeing 777 at London Heathrow on 17 January 2008 has been greeted with astonishment by aviation specialists. Some two miles out from its destination, 500 feet above the ground, Flight BA038 lost the power necessary to land normally. It happened without warning and the alarm system also failed. The pilot at the controls manually glided the plane down, dipping its nose to maximise length and lifting at the last minute to hurdle the 3 metre perimeter fence. All energy lost to the final manoeuvre the plane literally belly-flopped from 10 feet onto grass, severing the undercarriage and ploughing a 400 foot furrow to the edge of the runway. It was a highly skilful sequence of flying demanding calm concentration. The two pilots and 14 crew undoubtedly saved the lives of the 136 passengers. In the immediate aftermath ‘experts’ theorised the most likely cause to be a freak, localised weather glitch or pilot error. Unanimously they agreed that a system failure within the plane was highly unlikely. They were wrong.

Over the last decade we have become so accustomed to flying, reassured by statistics proclaiming its impressive safety record, well ahead of road or rail travel. Planes are technologically so advanced, runways are kept in excellent condition, pilots are highly trained and the aviation revolution has opened access beyond all expectations. While the cost to the environment and to communities is hotly debated the advances in safety are uncontested. Fifty years ago, however, things were massively different with much of the technology experimental, knowledge limited and conditions arbitrary. Few people flew. As a young child I remember waving off my sister from Speke Airport, now a Marriott Hotel, as she left for Lourdes. She was the only person in our extended family to have boarded a plane. Most of the men had been to sea, docking in ports throughout the world, but none had flown. I have flown more air miles in the last 8 months than in the first 35 years of my life. Living in Belfast I fly far more than I use any other form of transport. Flying has become habitual and within advanced industrial societies it embraces all classes.

As a young child football was my passion and Billy Liddle my hero. We were in the Second Division and not doing so well. Most of my mates were Blues although those kids whose families were less committed supported Wolves or Spurs or whoever else was winning. When Dad took me he’d buy a seat in the main stand and lift me over the turnstile. I’d sit on his knee for the game. The Kop was unbelievable to watch from the stand and the Boys’ Pen up in the top right corner looked frightening but exciting. One day both would be my graduation although I’d sometimes slip into The Paddock, close to the halfway line. If Billy and Tommy Younger were special, I looked to Duncan Edwards as an inspiration. If he could play for England so young, so could I! We didn’t have a telly but I read the reports and out the back I imagined I had all the moves. How I wished he’d played for us.

It was a cold evening in February 1958 when the radio broke the news that a plane carrying Manchester United’s team had crashed at Munich airport. The manager, the likeable Matt Busby, and his renowned ‘Busby Babes’, were among the dead and injured. It was devastating news especially as playing in Europe was a recent development. We were stunned and I remember going to bed that night, looking at the pictures of the team in my Football Diary and praying that the great Duncan would be alright. Soon we knew. Seven players, three United staff, seven journalists and three others had died. Duncan Edwards and Matt Busby were critically ill. Among the journalists the legendary Frank Swift, former Manchester City goalie, had died. I’d heard stories about his incredible agility and massive hand span. Duncan passed away 15 days later and a co-pilot also died in hospital. Nine players, including the young Bobby Charlton, survived as did the Captain James Thain and eleven others. While I was oblivious to what was happening in Manchester – despite it being only the other end of the East Lancs I’d never been there – I recall being deeply upset for a long time afterwards.

The European Cup had been introduced only three years earlier and United were the first English team involved in the 1956-7 season. They made it to the semis and lost to the brilliant Real Madrid who went on to win the trophy. In the 1957-8 season, having won the First Division, the Busby Babes were favourites to win in Europe. They beat Dukla Prague, the Czech champions, 3-1 on aggregate and in the quarter finals returned to the Balkans to play Yugoslavia’s Crvena Zvezda, known to us as Red Star Belgrade. On 14 January they beat Red Star 2-1 at Old Trafford. The midwinter return was in Belgrade on 5 February. They chartered a British European Airways’ 47 seater plane for the players, staff and journalists and flew via Munich for refuelling. Both pilots were experienced full captains and knew each other well. They landed the plane in Belgrade in very demanding weather conditions. So serious was the situation that airport control was unaware of their arrival until the plane appeared out of the gloom at the arrival building. The match was played and despite being 3-0 up at half-time United were held to a 3-3 draw, winning the tie 5-4 on aggregate. Several people joined the return flight to Manchester bringing the passenger list to 38.

Landing at Munich the runway was laden with slush. It continued to snow. Before leaving for Manchester the crew checked the wings to ensure no ice had formed and the pilots agreed de-icing was unnecessary. As Captain Thain had flown the outbound flight his friend Captain Rayment was at the controls so they had changed seats. As the plane accelerated down the runway the pilots realised there were problems with the engines and the pressure gauges on the instrument panel. They abandoned take-off and braked heavily, skidding to a halt through the slush. Apparently the cause was ‘boost-surging’ within the engines, a problem previously experienced with this type of airplane. Clearance was given for a second attempt to take off but once again, as the plane picked up speed down, the pilots aborted. This time the plane returned to the parking bay for checks. Photographs show clearly that there had been a fresh fall of snow on the tarmac adding to the existing slush. The passengers disembarked and the pilots and the station engineer decided against retuning the engines. A third take-off attempt would be made. The wings were observed as ice free but the runway was holding more snow and slush. A quick inspection of the runway by airport staff gave the go-ahead despite there being an uneven distribution of slush.

Reluctantly the team and other passengers returned to the aircraft. To overcome the problem with the engines the pilot opened the throttles more slowly as the plane went down the runway. It picked up speed towards take off and the pilots successfully dealt with some engine surging but the plane lost speed when it reached the undisturbed slush. Running out of tarmac it ploughed across snow-laden grass, smashed the perimeter fence and hit a house, a tree and a garage. The plane caught fire in small pockets but the main fuel tank remained secure. What followed were great moments of heroism as uninjured staff and players climbed back into the plane to rescue those trapped and injured, including Matt Busby. Already 20 people were dead. Once the rescue services arrived the fires were doused and Captain Rayment was cut free. He died later.

The Geman accident investigators arrived that evening. Examining the wreck without proper lighting they determined the wings were iced up beneath the subsequent fall of snow. That was their early determination as the sole cause of the disaster. BEA sent an investigation team to Munich. The team found no problems with the engines. All indications, including the opinion of the station engineer pointed to the cause of deceleration as slush on the runway. This was also Captain Thain’s opinion. Yet the West German Traffic and Transport Ministry announced that ‘the aircraft did not leave the ground’ probably ‘as the result of ice on the wings’. Captain Thain was criticised for not providing a satisfactory explanation as to why he did not ‘discontinue the final attempt to take off’. This determination laid the blame entirely at the door of the pilots. Alternatively, any finding of accumulation of snow and slush on the runway and inadequate inspection would place responsibility on the authorities.

In April 1958 a full German Inquiry was held behind closed doors. Witnesses were selected by the German senior investigator and, remarkably, the airport controllers were not called to give evidence. After much controversy and contradiction by ‘experts’ over ice on the wings it became clear that the Inquiry judge favoured icing as the principal cause of the disaster. ‘Other circumstances’ might have contributed but it was too late to determine their relevance. A year and a month after the disaster the Inquiry report was released. Ice on the wings was the ‘decisive cause’ and the pilots, Rayment (dead) and Thain (alive), were held responsible. The BEA Safety Committee refuted the report’s conclusions although it accepted that icing on the wings might have contributed. Slush on the runway was a significant factor, Captain Thain was criticised for not occupying the seat in the cockpit appropriate for the overall captain of the aircraft. Thain, his career in ruins and under suspension, sought to clear his name. Yet a further hearing in 1960 criticised his failure to ensure that the wings were clear of ice and his employers sacked him, adding that he had breached regulations by being in the wrong seat. United’s negligence case against BEA was settled out of court.

Further investigative trials were held and expert opinion was sought as scientific knowledge moved on. In November 1965 a second inquiry was convened in Germany to consider the new evidence ands opinions. Some consideration of slush on the runway was accepted but ice on the wings ‘was still to be regarded as the essential cause …’ The following April the British Ministry of Aviation retorted that the ‘strong likelihood’ was ‘there was no significant icing during take off’ and ‘the principal cause of the crash was the effect of slush on the runway’. A decade after the disaster a British inquiry was convened. A key witness, previously not called - an aeronautical engineer first on the scene, stated categorically that the wings were not iced. Not only had the German authorities failed to call him to their inquiries but his written statement had been altered to omit a crucial element of his testimony. Photographic evidence, it seemed, had also been altered. In 1969 the British inquiry report concluded that slush had impeded the nose wheel of the aircraft and the subsequent drag on all wheels was the ‘prime cause’. Once deceleration had happened there was insufficient runway to pick up speed and ‘blame for the accident is NOT to be imputed to Captain Thain’. The German authorities rejected the findings. Captain Thain died of a heart attack at the young age of 54.

Mike Kemble, from whose research much of the above summary is derived, states that ‘there is no doubt … that a cover up was engineered by the West German authorities, possibly even as high as the Federal Government in Bonn. There was never going to be any doubt about the outcome from the first inspection of the crash site to the publication of the report’. He raises 10 important unanswered questions regarding the disaster and the aftermath and his detailed research has drawn on many other sources including Captain Rayment’s son, Steve.

Mike Kemble’s excellent work, including photographic evidence and excerpts from the Captain’s log can be found at:

www.mikekemble.com/manutd/munich

[ThaiPauly]

Thaks Kopite, very interesting

[mr_hippo]

I was a lad of 9 when the disaster happened. I had had a 'kick-about' a few months previous with Billy Foulkes and a few more of the Babes - Billy's parents lived less than a mile from me.

Kopite says "Many of the players who died had club houses and their families were apparently turfed out of those houses after a decent interval. Of the eight who died, Geoff Bent was married, as were Roger Byrne and Mark Jones. These would possibly have lived in company houses. We also know that the two survivors who never played again also lived in company houses. Single players would have either lived in 'digs' or with parents.

I think the phrase 'turfed out' may have been too strong! After all, if you have a house that is 'tied' to your job, if you lose your job then you will lose your house - the same applies to farm labourers, military personnel. hospital workers and others.

"I am not a United supporter so it does not affect me!"

"I don't live in Manchester so it does not affect me!"

I'm sorry but if you are a football supporter than, yes, it does!

Let me take you back 50 years – few households had TV and if you had a TV and a car, you were considered super-rich. If you were not living within a few miles of the team you supported then your visits to that ground would be few and far between. I lived about 10 miles from Anfield/Goodison and it meant taking two buses to Green Lane tram depot, Liverpool and the ‘Football Special’ bus to the match and if you were fortunate you would see a few of the players on the same bus! I must say here that Dad & I have always been United fans; we only got to see United when they played at Goodison! Most of the time, people went to watch their local amateur teams play; attendances of 6-8000 at non-league matches were quite common.

Dad & I used to see Prescot Cables home games when we had Harry Grisedale playing for us. Who’s he? He was possibly the best inside forward who never turned pro. United, Arsenal and other top teams wanted to sign him but he always refused. His dad had been disabled in the Great War and Harry looked after him and would not leave him.

WWII ended barely a decade earlier, sweet rationing had just stopped and we were all part of Macmillan’s ‘You’ve never had it so good’ society and a new European football competition had just started with all those exotic places that kids of my day dreamt of – two weeks holiday in Spain? No chance, you had a few days in Blackpool or Rhyl, if you were very lucky! United were not the first Div 1 champions to qualify but were the first to play; Chelsea qualified the year before but the FA refused them permission to play.

Most football supporters wanted an English team to do well – no matter what their affiliations were. We could beat Johnny Foreigner at the game that we invented!

Some of the best players of their generation died at Munich and also the hopes of English football fans. The whole country was in mourning. I can vividly remember walking to school the day after we heard about the disaster and there seemed to be more people than normal at the school gates. Most mums had brought their kids to school and a few of the dads were there; it was definitely a very bleak, gloomy atmosphere.

Football is and has always been a game. If you call yourself a ‘fan’ enjoy the game. If your rivals beat your team do not blame the ref. – maybe your team was beaten by a better side on the day. There’s always the next game! There is always room for friendly banter between rivals. I, for one, long for the return to the days when rival fans can have a friendly drink in the pub together at the end of the match but will it ever happen?

Edited January 26, 2008 by mr_hippo

[redrus]

taken from a citeh forum

The derby match on Feb 10th, as we now know, will be used by Manchester United to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ****** air crash. This is because it is your nearest home game to the actual anniversary itself. There are some concerns that the proposed minute's silence will not be honoured by City fans and the overwhelming majority of us are horrified by that prospect. Most of us are decent people who love a bit of banter but know where to draw the line.

I know that the tragedy affected everyone in Manchester at the time and it was fairly common for fans to visit Old Trafford and Maine Road on consecutive weeks, regardless of their main allegiance. My grandfather was a red but often went to Maine Road. One of the fans who died was a great friend of my uncle's so it hit my family directly.

Those were different times and we all know that things have not changed wholly for the better in the world of football over the intervening 50 years.

However, even decent people like me (and the majority on here) are getting a bit fed up with the sanctimonious rubbish coming out of your club.

I sincerely hope we will respect the dead but how have your club done that over the years? Let me give you a few examples.

Many of the players who died had club houses and their families were apparently turfed out of those houses after a decent interval. Johnny Berry survived the crash but was so badly affected that he didn't play again and was also thrown out of his club-owned house a year later. Jackie Blanchflower's daughter (he survived) summed up the feeling of the families when she supposedly said "Were the ones that died the ones that got away with it?"

In 1997, the survivors got together to formulate a plan to ask the club for some compensation, via a benefit game. This went ahead in August 1998 and each family got £47,000. Eric Cantona came over for the game and is believed to have charged over £90,000 travel and accomodation expenses for his entourage. So Cantona, presumably not a poor man, got TWICE as much out of it as each of the families.

The club charges people to see an exhibition which made nearly £2m in 2006 and supposedly none of the money goes to the families. They have sold a vast quantity of merchandise over the years and apparently not a single penny has gone to the families.

Ray Wood, the goalkeeper at the time of the disaster said "They received massive international support following the disaster. But they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."

I hope to god that things go well on the day and it is remembered both for the football and the dignity of the event. But your club has been disrespecting those who died virtually every day for the last 50 years. That's more than 25 million minutes. Direct your anger at them.

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

[mrtoad]

taken from a citeh forum

The derby match on Feb 10th, as we now know, will be used by Manchester United to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the ****** air crash. This is because it is your nearest home game to the actual anniversary itself. There are some concerns that the proposed minute's silence will not be honoured by City fans and the overwhelming majority of us are horrified by that prospect. Most of us are decent people who love a bit of banter but know where to draw the line.

I know that the tragedy affected everyone in Manchester at the time and it was fairly common for fans to visit Old Trafford and Maine Road on consecutive weeks, regardless of their main allegiance. My grandfather was a red but often went to Maine Road. One of the fans who died was a great friend of my uncle's so it hit my family directly.

Those were different times and we all know that things have not changed wholly for the better in the world of football over the intervening 50 years.

However, even decent people like me (and the majority on here) are getting a bit fed up with the sanctimonious rubbish coming out of your club.

I sincerely hope we will respect the dead but how have your club done that over the years? Let me give you a few examples.

Many of the players who died had club houses and their families were apparently turfed out of those houses after a decent interval. Johnny Berry survived the crash but was so badly affected that he didn't play again and was also thrown out of his club-owned house a year later. Jackie Blanchflower's daughter (he survived) summed up the feeling of the families when she supposedly said "Were the ones that died the ones that got away with it?"

In 1997, the survivors got together to formulate a plan to ask the club for some compensation, via a benefit game. This went ahead in August 1998 and each family got £47,000. Eric Cantona came over for the game and is believed to have charged over £90,000 travel and accomodation expenses for his entourage. So Cantona, presumably not a poor man, got TWICE as much out of it as each of the families.

The club charges people to see an exhibition which made nearly £2m in 2006 and supposedly none of the money goes to the families. They have sold a vast quantity of merchandise over the years and apparently not a single penny has gone to the families.

Ray Wood, the goalkeeper at the time of the disaster said "They received massive international support following the disaster. But they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."

I hope to god that things go well on the day and it is remembered both for the football and the dignity of the event. But your club has been disrespecting those who died virtually every day for the last 50 years. That's more than 25 million minutes. Direct your anger at them.

Whilst there are some interesting points regarding the treatment of survivors and famalies of the deceased by the club, I hardly feel that this is appropriate to use as a reason for booing or disturbing a silence for all of those that died so unesscarily young. Any true fan of football should understand that the game is much bigger than just a club, and when such an incisent happens then all those feelings of rivalry should be forgotten, and the players honoured for their contributions to the beautiful game.In the end, these were Manchester United players, but they were also individuals with famalies, friends and fans. There have been many tragedies involving other clubs around the world, and Kopite as a scouser you should be acutely aware of the need for respect and sensitivity required at such a time of remembrence.

None of those wrongs, give the remostest excuse for misbehaviour during the requested silence, and anyone who tries to justify it, regardless of rights or wrongs, has no place in the football family.

Silence for one minute is not a lot to ask, but means so much.

[kopite]

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

er....posted by a city supporter?

oh dear

Edited January 27, 2008 by kopite

[kopite]

Whilst there are some interesting points regarding the treatment of survivors and famalies of the deceased by the club, I hardly feel that this is appropriate to use as a reason for booing or disturbing a silence for all of those that died so unesscarily young. Any true fan of football should understand that the game is much bigger than just a club, and when such an incisent happens then all those feelings of rivalry should be forgotten, and the players honoured for their contributions to the beautiful game.In the end, these were Manchester United players, but they were also individuals with famalies, friends and fans. There have been many tragedies involving other clubs around the world, and Kopite as a scouser you should be acutely aware of the need for respect and sensitivity required at such a time of remembrence.

None of those wrongs, give the remostest excuse for misbehaviour during the requested silence, and anyone who tries to justify it, regardless of rights or wrongs, has no place in the football family.

Silence for one minute is not a lot to ask, but means so much.

i totally agree mr toad. the thread title is called "will there be silence?". all i did was post an account from a citeh fan about how he/many city fans feel about the tragedy and therefore what one can expect from the day itself.

im kinda gutted that someone would think that my post was trying to have a dig at united etc...

the second post was actually found on a liverpool website.

heres how he finished his post,

Reading Mike’s work and a range of other material for this overview has answered many of the questions and concerns I remember thinking about in the late 1960s. I have always been uneasy that Munich was considered an ‘accident’ due mainly to pilot error. My analyses of disasters over the last 20 years have shown a clear and unambiguous reluctance of authorities to accept responsibility for their culpable acts or omissions, for their institutionalised negligent custom and practice. It suits those in power, whether public bodies or private corporations, to lay blame with individuals at the coal face rather than look to their institutionalised failings. What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

Players

Geoff Bent

Roger Byrne (Capt)

Eddie Coleman

Duncan Edwards

Mark Jones

David Pegg

Tommy Taylor

Liam Whelan

Non Players

Tom Cable (Club Steward)

Walter Crickmer (Club Secretary)

Tom Curry (Club Trainer)

Alf Clarke (Manchester Evening Chronicle)

Don Davies (Manchester Guardian)

George Follows (Daily Herald)

Tom Jackson (Manchester Evening News)

Archie Ledbrooke (Daily Mirror)

Bela Miklos (Travel Agent)

Capt Ken Rayment (Pilot)

Henry Rose (Daily Express)

Willie Satinoff (Fan)

Eric Thompson (Daily Mail)

Frank Swift( News of the World)

Bert Whalley (Club Coach)

mad that im having to defend myself

Edited January 27, 2008 by kopite

[mrtoad]

Whilst there are some interesting points regarding the treatment of survivors and famalies of the deceased by the club, I hardly feel that this is appropriate to use as a reason for booing or disturbing a silence for all of those that died so unesscarily young. Any true fan of football should understand that the game is much bigger than just a club, and when such an incisent happens then all those feelings of rivalry should be forgotten, and the players honoured for their contributions to the beautiful game.In the end, these were Manchester United players, but they were also individuals with famalies, friends and fans. There have been many tragedies involving other clubs around the world, and Kopite as a scouser you should be acutely aware of the need for respect and sensitivity required at such a time of remembrence.

None of those wrongs, give the remostest excuse for misbehaviour during the requested silence, and anyone who tries to justify it, regardless of rights or wrongs, has no place in the football family.

Silence for one minute is not a lot to ask, but means so much.

i totally agree mr toad. the thread title is called "will there be silence?". all i did was post an account from a citeh fan about how he/many city fans feel about the tragedy and therefore what one can expect from the day itself.

im kinda gutted that someone would think that my post was trying to have a dig at united etc...

the second post was actually found on a liverpool website.

heres how he finished his post,

Reading Mike’s work and a range of other material for this overview has answered many of the questions and concerns I remember thinking about in the late 1960s. I have always been uneasy that Munich was considered an ‘accident’ due mainly to pilot error. My analyses of disasters over the last 20 years have shown a clear and unambiguous reluctance of authorities to accept responsibility for their culpable acts or omissions, for their institutionalised negligent custom and practice. It suits those in power, whether public bodies or private corporations, to lay blame with individuals at the coal face rather than look to their institutionalised failings. What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

Players

Geoff Bent

Roger Byrne (Capt)

Eddie Coleman

Duncan Edwards

Mark Jones

David Pegg

Tommy Taylor

Liam Whelan

Non Players

Tom Cable (Club Steward)

Walter Crickmer (Club Secretary)

Tom Curry (Club Trainer)

Alf Clarke (Manchester Evening Chronicle)

Don Davies (Manchester Guardian)

George Follows (Daily Herald)

Tom Jackson (Manchester Evening News)

Archie Ledbrooke (Daily Mirror)

Bela Miklos (Travel Agent)

Capt Ken Rayment (Pilot)

Henry Rose (Daily Express)

Willie Satinoff (Fan)

Eric Thompson (Daily Mail)

Frank Swift( News of the World)

Bert Whalley (Club Coach)

mad that im having to defend myself

Wasn't having a go at you Kopite, as I sort of head an idea what you were trying to get across, and why some idiots might ruin the day, by using the arguments that you had quoted from a Cit fan site.

[redrus]

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

er....posted by a city supporter?

oh dear

Nobhead....!!!!!

You keep lighting the flames son, you keep the others believing....! Bin dipping troll.....

redrus

[kopite]

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

er....posted by a city supporter?

oh dear

Nobhead....!!!!!

You keep lighting the flames son, you keep the others believing....! Bin dipping troll.....

redrus

lighting the flames? on thai visa

oh get a grip soft lad. why are you so paranoid this is a thread about city lads not respecting the minutes silence. as other united lads have pointed out its big news back home. i pulled a post from a city fan in the uk to show how some city fans feel.

also read how many other libpool fans feel.

but your hatred to anything scouse is evident. if a newcastle or arsenal fan had posted what i did then you wouldnt have even replied.

this is all because i proved you wrong about our argument regarding athens.

oh dear god

Edited January 27, 2008 by kopite

[kopite]

Whilst there are some interesting points regarding the treatment of survivors and famalies of the deceased by the club, I hardly feel that this is appropriate to use as a reason for booing or disturbing a silence for all of those that died so unesscarily young. Any true fan of football should understand that the game is much bigger than just a club, and when such an incisent happens then all those feelings of rivalry should be forgotten, and the players honoured for their contributions to the beautiful game.In the end, these were Manchester United players, but they were also individuals with famalies, friends and fans. There have been many tragedies involving other clubs around the world, and Kopite as a scouser you should be acutely aware of the need for respect and sensitivity required at such a time of remembrence.

None of those wrongs, give the remostest excuse for misbehaviour during the requested silence, and anyone who tries to justify it, regardless of rights or wrongs, has no place in the football family.

Silence for one minute is not a lot to ask, but means so much.

i totally agree mr toad. the thread title is called "will there be silence?". all i did was post an account from a citeh fan about how he/many city fans feel about the tragedy and therefore what one can expect from the day itself.

im kinda gutted that someone would think that my post was trying to have a dig at united etc...

the second post was actually found on a liverpool website.

heres how he finished his post,

Reading Mike's work and a range of other material for this overview has answered many of the questions and concerns I remember thinking about in the late 1960s. I have always been uneasy that Munich was considered an 'accident' due mainly to pilot error. My analyses of disasters over the last 20 years have shown a clear and unambiguous reluctance of authorities to accept responsibility for their culpable acts or omissions, for their institutionalised negligent custom and practice. It suits those in power, whether public bodies or private corporations, to lay blame with individuals at the coal face rather than look to their institutionalised failings. What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

Players

Geoff Bent

Roger Byrne (Capt)

Eddie Coleman

Duncan Edwards

Mark Jones

David Pegg

Tommy Taylor

Liam Whelan

Non Players

Tom Cable (Club Steward)

Walter Crickmer (Club Secretary)

Tom Curry (Club Trainer)

Alf Clarke (Manchester Evening Chronicle)

Don Davies (Manchester Guardian)

George Follows (Daily Herald)

Tom Jackson (Manchester Evening News)

Archie Ledbrooke (Daily Mirror)

Bela Miklos (Travel Agent)

Capt Ken Rayment (Pilot)

Henry Rose (Daily Express)

Willie Satinoff (Fan)

Eric Thompson (Daily Mail)

Frank Swift( News of the World)

Bert Whalley (Club Coach)

mad that im having to defend myself

Wasn't having a go at you Kopite, as I sort of head an idea what you were trying to get across, and why some idiots might ruin the day, by using the arguments that you had quoted from a Cit fan site.

i know that mr toad. all i did was add an opinion of a city lad back home. a very respected one as well.

awful that threads like this even exist

i hope they get the respect they deserve. matt busby was our captain. some of us never forget that fact, some never acknowledge it. sad times really

[redrus]

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

er....posted by a city supporter?

oh dear

Nobhead....!!!!!

You keep lighting the flames son, you keep the others believing....! Bin dipping troll.....

redrus

lighting the flames? on thai visa

oh get a grip soft lad. why are you so paranoid this is a thread about city lads not respecting the minutes silence. as other united lads have pointed out its big news back home. i pulled a post from a city fan in the uk to show how some city fans feel.

also read how many other libpool fans feel.

but your hatred to anything scouse is evident. if a newcastle or arsenal fan had posted what i did then you wouldnt have even replied.

this is all because i proved you wrong about our argument regarding athens.

oh dear god

Get a grip....?

Have a word you Muppet, I don't have any hatred. Just pity....!!!!

redrus

[kopite]

Utter fookin bobbins, you trying to ignite the flames.........!

Your recount of that sad day is fine but the above, well, lets just forget it yeah. Anger needs to not be directed at all....!

redrus

er....posted by a city supporter?

oh dear

Nobhead....!!!!!

You keep lighting the flames son, you keep the others believing....! Bin dipping troll.....

redrus

lighting the flames? on thai visa

oh get a grip soft lad. why are you so paranoid this is a thread about city lads not respecting the minutes silence. as other united lads have pointed out its big news back home. i pulled a post from a city fan in the uk to show how some city fans feel.

also read how many other libpool fans feel.

but your hatred to anything scouse is evident. if a newcastle or arsenal fan had posted what i did then you wouldnt have even replied.

this is all because i proved you wrong about our argument regarding athens.

oh dear god

Get a grip....?

Have a word you Muppet, I don't have any hatred. Just pity....!!!!

redrus

put your love of united before your hatred of others

[mrtoad]

C'mon Red, I think that Kopite is being pretty reasonable, and has highlighted some of the shit that is being spouted by idiots who want to justify interuppting the silence. They are certainly not his views.

Think that between Liverpool and Manchester United the tragedies that have occured, should at least enable us to understand a little more about the need to get hatred out of the game.

Of course, I do absolutley hate losing to Liverpool though.

I think in the end that we all agree, that anyone eho interuppts the silence is a complete <deleted>, and as I have stated earleir in this thread, should be banned for life from entering any football grounds.

[mr_hippo]

With all due respect, you cannot compare Munich with Hillsborough/Ibrox/Heysel/Bradford. The world had moved on in the 31 years between Munich & Hillsborough and, in some respects, not for the better!

In 1958, 13 years after the end of WWII, there was a lot of animosity still between the Brits & the Germans. Could have the findings of the first German inquiry reflected these feelings? The inquiry findings were biased against the aircrew.

Air crash investigation was in its infancy and there were no 'black boxes' on board so any investigation would be considered 'primitive by today's standards.

There was no hooliganism in football at the time of Munich but there was a lot at the time of Hillsborough; I am not implying that there was any hooliganism at Hillsborough.

We also have to take into account the 'mood' of the country at the time.

1958 - "United/Liverpool not playing at home? - no problem. let's go to watch City/Everton".

1989 - "Liverpool not playing at home - let's go to the pub and watch it on Sky."

1960s - "Spurs playing in Europe - I hope they win."

Today - "Chelsea playing in Europe - I hope they get hammered"

taken from a citeh forum

In 1997, the survivors got together to formulate a plan to ask the club for some compensation, via a benefit game. This went ahead in August 1998 and each family got £47,000. Eric Cantona came over for the game and is believed to have charged over £90,000 travel and accomodation expenses for his entourage. So Cantona, presumably not a poor man, got TWICE as much out of it as each of the families.

So the £90.000 fee is just rumour and supposition. Would any present day player play in a benefit match just for expenses? If Cantona did not play would the gate receipts have been lower therefore lowering the monies that the families got?

taken from a citeh forum

Ray Wood, the goalkeeper at the time of the disaster said "They received massive international support following the disaster. But they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."

As every club then would have done. Prior to 1961, the maximum wage for players was £20/week. Contract terms were very, very different to today's contracts. If you were living in 'tied' housing, could you expect to stay when you no longer played for the club?

[Jockstar]

Right lads. Calm down. Anymore flaming and i gotta give out warnings.

[ThaiPauly]

Good news

Edited February 10, 2008 by ThaiPauly

[MSingh]

So what were all the bangs that were going off that G Neville & Solskjaer looked shocked to hear ??

[oldgit]

So what were all the bangs that were going off that G Neville & Solskjaer looked shocked to hear ??

I heard that as well.Sounded like a 21 gun salute!

[nev]

respect to city for the minutes silence hope that it is not just a one off.

manchester a city united!! well just for one minute

[mrbojangles]

respect to city for the minutes silence hope that it is not just a one off.

manchester a city united!! well just for one minute

Yep, i suppose this thread can just wither away and die now

Respect to all.

[redrus]

So what were all the bangs that were going off that G Neville & Solskjaer looked shocked to hear ??

They were rockets let off, outside the ground. Not clear as yet whether it was United or City but, it is believed that it was a salute not a disruption.

redrus