Penang To Impose Stricter Rules When Issuing Tourist Visas

[emmezeta]

Come, come, now. Don't be like that! You could always teach English for 28K per month. They are quite happy to let you do that! Or marry a "rich " Thai lady and use her 35K per month income as the basis of your visa application.

Aloha, Rex

All people from non english speaking countries should be excluded from the new rules, they have very very few possibilities to work illegally

[JIP]

Well like I said: I was spending 100% of the millions of baht I earned every year (including all the tax money I got back from the IRS) in Thailand. Now I'm not. If that is what makes the Thai government happy, more power to them.

Didn't read every comment, but there are a lot like this. Actually, I think the Thai government really doesn't want farangs spending their money here. Why? Too much foreign investment driving up the currency, which makes life difficult for all of the exporters (a major segment of the economy). Their stated goal is to drive down the value of the currency to make exports more competitive, as long as there is more money/foreigners wanting to come in than can be accommodated, no surprise they can tighten up the rules and not worry about those who end up not spending their money here.

I disagree, Husky. Changing visa requirements on long-term tourists has such a tiny impact on the Thai economy that it wouldn't even register on even the most sensitive economic indicator. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, this is just Thailand exerting a little control over their immigration policies in order to generate the appearance that Thailand isn't quite the "wild west country" that people believe it is... partially because of (what used to be) their laissez-faire visa requirements.

[JimmyTheMook]

Hate to inform you but if you are working in Thailand without a WP or paying taxes then claiming the overseas tax exemption to also avoid US taxes is criminal tax evasion. You do not have income derived from a job overseas. You have US income paid out to you overseas. You have to pay taxes somewhere.

When the IRS audits you, you are fuc_ked. Minimum of back taxes plus 20% and compounded interest with probable jail time.

I would get a good US tax attorney and tax accountant if I was you and clean this up while you can still claim a mistake based on ignorance.

Sounds a lot less comfortable than a visa run

[tropo]

Foreigners in Thailand, its time to unite and fight against these stupid immigration laws

Yes, it' time we all relocate to Cambo and Phils

Both have very little to offer compared to Thailand , why do you think this place is so much more popular ?

The law is the law and tourist visa's were not meant to be used for living in Thailand and the goverment has been very lax with the laws regarding this.

Want to live in Thailand , secure the correct visa to do so or go live in somewhere else.

You can't compare Cambodia with the Philippines. The Philippines has plenty to offer.

[koheesti]

For those planning on moving to The Philippines, be sure to check out Guam just a short flight east. It's an American territory with great diving and snorkling. The water is a helluva lot cleaner than down here around Samui and tropical fish are within two meters of the shore. The infrastructure is wonderful, everyone speaks English and the locals are genuinely friendly. Not a bad place for a weekend getaway to the poor man's Hawaii.

I haven't been there but some research revealed it is a total sheithole with a huge housing shortage, with little to do, all at high American prices.

Well, your research about being a sheithole is way off. Actually, Samui is a sheithole (I say that with love) but that doesn't keep people away. Little to do? Yeah, but not if you're just going for a vacation. Living there would drive me nuts I'm sure - especially being way out in the middle of nowhere. Prices are certainly higher than SE Asia but I went there when I was living in Europe and the prices were cheaper by comparison. It's also a big destination for the Japanese and a big part of that is how cheap it is for them.

http://www.visitguam.org/main/ if anyone is interested.

To make take this back on-topic...

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year? 6 months in Thailand, 6 months in Cambodia or Vietnam or Philippines, etc? I travel lightly so it's not like I would have to move/store furniture. Being a tourist, I had wanted to use Thailand as my base for seeing the region over a long period of time (1-2 years). Now maybe I'll just move back and forth between two countries - better for taxes anyway. Ideally, it would be great to know someone in a nearby country in the same situation and we could just house swap every 6 months and not have to worry about getting Internet hooked up, etc.

[samran]

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year? 6 months in Thailand, 6 months in Cambodia or Vietnam or Philippines, etc? I travel lightly so it's not like I would have to move/store furniture. Being a tourist, I had wanted to use Thailand as my base for seeing the region over a long period of time (1-2 years). Now maybe I'll just move back and forth between two countries - better for taxes anyway. Ideally, it would be great to know someone in a nearby country in the same situation and we could just house swap every 6 months and not have to worry about getting Internet hooked up, etc.

The converse problem is, if you flitter around so much, uncle sam and the IRS may actually decide that cause you are only on holiday, your true tax residence is the good ole US of A.

Oh say can you see, by the dawns early light (that massive bill for back taxes that you owe that Mr postman slipped into your mail box).

[banff]

Not suprised with the old government back in power. They are determined to rid the country of what they consider undisireable foreigners and will probably continue until they have achieved this goal

[CRUNCHER]

This is no surprise. Thai authorities can find out by reading ThaiVisa that people are living in Thailand full time using tourist visa from Penang.

Back in October 2006 a Thai Government Official said that foreingers were welcome to stay in Thailand as long as they had a visa approporiate to their stay. I think that this is perfectly reasonable. 30 day visa exempt entries are for short term tourists; tourist visas are for long term tourists. Anyone living here full time needs a non immigrant visa, elite card etc. Nothing wrong with this.

I know those under 50 or not married to a Thai have some difficulty, but every country's immigration laws adversly affect some people. Sad, but that's life. Quite frankly I think that the Thai Government could do more to accomodate these people. At the end of the day, however, it is their country and if foreigners want to live here they must respect the laws and customs of the land.

Anyone who cannot afford a return trip to their own country once a year to get the necessary visas cannot be in a position to contribute that much to the Thai ecconomy. Air fare are not that expensive these days.

Quite frankly some farang who cannot find some way to stay here legally have an inflated idea of their importance to the Thai ecconomy.

Edited January 31, 2008 by CRUNCHER

[ovenman]

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year?

We had a thread on this topic a while back. I went on record as saying that I would have no problem whatsoever splitting my time between Chiang Mai and Penang, two months here, two months there, and so on... I don't see the concept as being very different than the number of people who live in the New England region of the US heading south to Florida for the winter. The distance that would be involved is even similar.

[tropo]

thanks about the tip about the 16 months tourist visa...do i apply for it at home? best. frank.

No, you don't apply for it at home. You just go to any Philippine Immigration office with the same stamp that you got when you arrived at the airport, and ask for a 2-month extension. (Dress nicely.) The cost is, I believe, 3000 pesos (2700 baht) for a 2-month extension, and you can repeat this for up to 16 months.

(I haven't confirmed all the details yet, but I'm about 95% sure of what I just wrote. Anybody reading feel free to correct or clarify.)

Not quite right.

When you arrive you get a 21 day visa-exempt stamp. Before the end of the 21 days you go to any immigration office and extend this visa-exempt entry by 39 days to 60 in total. At no time are you applying for a tourist visa.

Tourist visas can be bought at a Philippine consulate BEFORE you arrive and when you arrive you'll get a 60 day stamp. This would be a good idea if you plan to travel around a bit and going to an immigration office would be invonvenient.

Every 60 days you can extend your stay a further 60 days up to a total of 16 months. The cost will be around 2000 pesos for each 'extension of stay' which amounts to just over 1,500 baht. The first one costs a little more...perhaps 2500 pesos).

Interestingly, if you are late with your extensions you won't get into any bother. You just pay a 1000 peso late penalty fee. I know this for a fact because one time I was 3 weeks late. You won't be locked up or treated like a criminal as you would be in Thailand.

If you arrived at the airport (on the way out) with an overstay, they would process your normal 'extension of stay' at the airport and you would pay the normal extension fee plus a late penalty fee of 1000 peso.

[jstumbo]

Hate to inform you but if you are working in Thailand without a WP or paying taxes then claiming the overseas tax exemption to also avoid US taxes is criminal tax evasion. You do not have income derived from a job overseas. You have US income paid out to you overseas. You have to pay taxes somewhere.

When the IRS audits you, you are fuc_ked. Minimum of back taxes plus 20% and compounded interest with probable jail time.

I would get a good US tax attorney and tax accountant if I was you and clean this up while you can still claim a mistake based on ignorance.

Not true. There are two diferent way to qualify for the tax exemption. One is if you tax home is in another country, ie if you have a Thai work permit and are working in Thailand. The second is that you are not in the US for more than 35 days during a 12 month period. For this way, there is no requirement that you are paying tax anywhere and your income can come from anywhere, including the US as long as you do not spend more than 35 days in a 12 month period.

The 12 month period can also be two 12 month periods. if you are out of the US for 6 months, then in for one month, then back out for 5 months, back in for one month, then back out for 6 months, you would qualify and be tax free. So in reality you could come for a month every 6 months and pay no taxes in the US.

[koheesti]

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year? 6 months in Thailand, 6 months in Cambodia or Vietnam or Philippines, etc? I travel lightly so it's not like I would have to move/store furniture. Being a tourist, I had wanted to use Thailand as my base for seeing the region over a long period of time (1-2 years). Now maybe I'll just move back and forth between two countries - better for taxes anyway. Ideally, it would be great to know someone in a nearby country in the same situation and we could just house swap every 6 months and not have to worry about getting Internet hooked up, etc.

The converse problem is, if you flitter around so much, uncle sam and the IRS may actually decide that cause you are only on holiday, your true tax residence is the good ole US of A.

Oh say can you see, by the dawns early light (that massive bill for back taxes that you owe that Mr postman slipped into your mail box).

Well, I've spent about 23 days over the past 4.5 years in the USA. If they want to fly me home for an interview & put me up in a hotel I'll be happy to go. Sorry, don't want to get too far off topic and turn this into a taxes thread. I'll seriously look into paying here if I stay long enough but this thread makes it sound like I won't be staying too much longer so...?

[lopburi3]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=167053

The above post that a fax has been received by visa agents in Penang appears to confirm that as of tomorrow you will require a ticket "to home country" in order to receive a tourist visa issue in Penang.

[JIP]

Hate to inform you but if you are working in Thailand without a WP or paying taxes then claiming the overseas tax exemption to also avoid US taxes is criminal tax evasion. You do not have income derived from a job overseas. You have US income paid out to you overseas. You have to pay taxes somewhere.

When the IRS audits you, you are fuc_ked. Minimum of back taxes plus 20% and compounded interest with probable jail time.

I would get a good US tax attorney and tax accountant if I was you and clean this up while you can still claim a mistake based on ignorance.

I took a long time studying this, and... well... I won't bring out all the IRS forms and regulations here, but I'll just direct you at this link, with this part highlighted:

You will love the earned-income exclusion

The idea of double taxation doesn't wash in this country. So, states with income taxes let you may give you a credit on taxes you paid to another state. Congress has a similar attitude toward taxes you pay abroad. You shouldn't pay taxes twice. So, theres a special rule for earned income, if you qualify. For 2005, qualified taxpayers can exclude from gross income as much as $80,000 in income earned while living abroad.

...

This exclusion applies regardless of the amount of tax paid to the foreign country.

My company and I have been paying taxes to the IRS, and H&R Block has been filing my taxes, and the IRS has been giving me my Overseas Tax Credit for the last 4 years. If there was going to be a problem, I imagine (heh: I hope) my accountant or the IRS would have caught it by now.

(I will add though, CTM, that you did get me nervous there for a few minutes, and had me going back and double-checking all the research I had done before. Sheesh. )

Edited January 31, 2008 by JIP

[mitrapaap]

Not suprised with the old government back in power. They are determined to rid the country of what they consider undisireable foreigners and will probably continue until they have achieved this goal

Does somebody realize that white farangs who are on "permanent holiday" are not the only foreigners who live and sometimes work here illegally? Why does everybody seem to believe that the whole thing is targeted at farangs? Unfortunately there is no such thing like a first class tourist and second class tourist, so the rules are applicable to all - even those who are not a problem for the country.

[jstumbo]

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year? 6 months in Thailand, 6 months in Cambodia or Vietnam or Philippines, etc? I travel lightly so it's not like I would have to move/store furniture. Being a tourist, I had wanted to use Thailand as my base for seeing the region over a long period of time (1-2 years). Now maybe I'll just move back and forth between two countries - better for taxes anyway. Ideally, it would be great to know someone in a nearby country in the same situation and we could just house swap every 6 months and not have to worry about getting Internet hooked up, etc.

The converse problem is, if you flitter around so much, uncle sam and the IRS may actually decide that cause you are only on holiday, your true tax residence is the good ole US of A.

Oh say can you see, by the dawns early light (that massive bill for back taxes that you owe that Mr postman slipped into your mail box).

There are two ways to claim the tax exemption. One is that your tax home is not in the US and the other is the Physical Presence test. For the Physical Presence test, the only requirement is that you are not physically in the US for more than 35 days in a 12 month period.

[husky]

I disagree, Husky. Changing visa requirements on long-term tourists has such a tiny impact on the Thai economy that it wouldn't even register on even the most sensitive economic indicator. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, this is just Thailand exerting a little control over their immigration policies in order to generate the appearance that Thailand isn't quite the "wild west country" that people believe it is... partially because of (what used to be) their laissez-faire visa requirements.

I don't claim to know the actual motivation, but it is rather uncomfortable for all of us long stayers to see one reg. tightened after another. It has been going on for a while. Then I always read some comments to the effect of 'Thailand is shooting themselves in the foot', 'If they don't want my money, I'll just take my money and go spend it elsewhere', etc., etc., etc. Just my opinion, but I think they really don't want the money, if it was a different set of economics I think the policy decisions would be different.

[koheesti]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=167053

The above post that a fax has been received by visa agents in Penang appears to confirm that as of tomorrow you will require a ticket "to home country" in order to receive a tourist visa issue in Penang.

What if your "home country" is not the country of your passport? I have more connections (outside siblings) in a tiny European country where I lived most of the past 12 years than I do back in the US. I guess Penang won't be getting my tourist money. I was looking forward to going there sometime in the future for a visa vacation but I guess not now. As it is right now, I've planned to go to Hong Kong for a week for my next tourist visa. It'll really suck if hear about them doing the same thing too soon.

[emmezeta]

Has anyone thought about getting around this by living in two countries in the region over the course of the year?

We had a thread on this topic a while back. I went on record as saying that I would have no problem whatsoever splitting my time between Chiang Mai and Penang, two months here, two months there, and so on... I don't see the concept as being very different than the number of people who live in the New England region of the US heading south to Florida for the winter. The distance that would be involved is even similar.

Samui is rainy even on december, i doubt a "tourist" will stay here sep-oct...

I was thinking Bali, probably the best place around SEA according to lot's of my friends, that nobody mentioned.

[hotgeekus]

Basic fact is that no matter what, it would help if they fix the feudal system of immigration here in Thailand and their consulates....

I am a legal Farang in Thailand creating significant taxes for the country along with my home country (USA) to which I pay also.... now my significant other is not, and can not get a longterm visa, as going to consulate is like buying a used car, as they themselves are never sure. I have gotten 4 single and 1 double visas since the law changed and I was told not to even try for a Non-immigrant B. So, I just have to use the system.

Just make a law, and make sure all consulates follow it, post it somewhere where the link won't crash and I am happy. No matter what I can afford to fly anywhere to renue the visa, as I have been doing.....

When in Rome, eat the pizza....

[baanthale]

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

[phutoie2]

This is no surprise. Thai authorities can find out by reading ThaiVisa that people are living in Thailand full time using tourist visa from Penang.

Back in October 2006 a Thai Government Official said that foreingers were welcome to stay in Thailand as long as they had a visa approporiate to their stay. I think that this is perfectly reasonable. 30 day visa exempt entries are for short term tourists; tourist visas are for long term tourists. Anyone living here full time needs a non immigrant visa, elite card etc. Nothing wrong with this.

I know those under 50 or not married to a Thai have some difficulty, but every country's immigration laws adversly affect some people. Sad, but that's life. Quite frankly I think that the Thai Government could do more to accomodate these people. At the end of the day, however, it is their country and if foreigners want to live here they must respect the laws and customs of the land.

Anyone who cannot afford a return trip to their own country once a year to get the necessary visas cannot be in a position to contribute that much to the Thai ecconomy. Air fare are not that expensive these days.

Quite frankly some farang who cannot find some way to stay here legally have an inflated idea of their importance to the Thai ecconomy.

Well said that man!

[anon467367354]

Well! just how easy isit to get a long term turist visa in EU for a thai citizen? Or in US? I'm sure of that it can't be done by going in and out of the border. The visa rules in Thailand are indeed very generously compared with EU and US.

no poor slob would come to Thailand as they would the EU or US because Thailand pretty much has zero social services. Go to the states, you get medical, school, food stamps, education, welfare etc. Thailand is not "free-loader" moocher friendly. Thus the difficult visa situation to get there.

[JIP]

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

Interesting: One Thai consulate out of dozens makes one minor change in visa requirements, and you believe that the entire illegal workforce in Thailand is going to just up and disappear? No adjusting? No new plans? Just give up and go home? Boy: That's optimistic.

[hansnl]

Well! just how easy isit to get a long term turist visa in EU for a thai citizen? Or in US? I'm sure of that it can't be done by going in and out of the border. The visa rules in Thailand are indeed very generously compared with EU and US.

Irrelevant. Totally different stages of economic development.

Irrelevant?

Really?

Think again, please?

[baanthale]

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

Interesting: One Thai consulate out of dozens makes one minor change in visa requirements, and you believe that the entire illegal workforce in Thailand is going to just up and disappear? No adjusting? No new plans? Just give up and go home? Boy: That's optimistic.

Have to start somewere Been here long enough to know that this is just a start!

[tiger50]

will it also in time be a problem obtaining a one year multi visa, i fly to uk once a year to renew stay between two weeks and one month, and come back to thailand, so i am also a long stay tourist year by year...what's the difference?

[Mac1]

This we all should do, instead of complaining here :

Send a written complaint to your Embassy (country of origin), explain the difficulties you meet with the never ending visa changes. When your embassy get enough complaints, I bet the embassy will make a formal "request" to the Thai Goverment, about their strict (failed) visa policy, and ask them to consider more "foreign friendly" changes.

You might say "they'll never change" but I bet more happend, than if we all just sit here and "weening" like a bunch of old women :-)

I've done it already (sent a written complaint, that is) lol.

LOS is dead = LOFF (Land Off Frustrated Foreigners)

But this is a long way before anything happend (if ever). In the meantime, all of us end up without a visa - so - we all move to neighbour more visa friendly country. And Thailand will loose 500-600 Billion Baht every year .....

Talk about Failed Visa Policy !

[fongvin]

This change doesn't really affect me, but it proably will affect some that I know.

I find it a bit sad that so many posters seem to be welcoming the news with glee.

Enjoying the misfortunes of others isn't a particularly endearing quality in people.

Slightly off-topic !!!!!

Yes, this change does not effect me to but may upset less people if we formed seperate forums in Thailand for expatriates, tourists, and others. Their are a lot of critics posting here who don't actually live here, sat at home reaping the social benefit system in order to pay for their next trip to ThighLand .......

And that sir is fact

[tijnebijn]

What a long thread and what a panic !

That Penang is making this change in policy does not mean its all over the globe in the region.

Its very well known that every consulate make/have /create their own rules .

Like in Singapore with the 400k in the bank rule for a multiple non O .

Many panic at the time , but until now its an only in Sing requirement .

Mostly that Penang does it will probably over the huge workload there ,

Penang is famous of changing the rules regularly (also change it back ).

When there are no more penang Thailand goers anymore , Penang residents

will probably complain of lack of tourists and will make Penang consulate

change the rule back again . So long it is a Penang only thing of course .

If it is not , most of us should be aware and prepare to meet the requirements asked ,

so start saving ( I am doing that seriously since Sept 2006) .

If not wanting I am sure many expats can find a nice place else in SE- Asia .( love Bali ).