Overseas & Oversexed

[kat]

Yes, most men are here for the women. Anyone who denies that is living in dreamland.

As far as Thai men's attractiveness goes, I am speaking of what most Westerners think. I have lived here a long time, and actually I don't agree.

Any one who also thinks that the bulk of these relationships would be "naturally occurring" outside one of the largest /dating/marriage-for-sale markets in the world is also dreaming.

That's true. Also, anyone who thinks that it's all above 'love' in the west is also dreaming. People get together for a variety of reasons, economic, status, security etc. Here the the exchange rate is different.

That's true, but in the West, the reasons for people getting together are much more distributed among a normal curve. In LOS, it is much more significantly skewed toward a similar pattern. There are widely known and widely documented reasons for this. That skewed pattern is what the article is talking about, and I am saying that it is very real, and not a sensationalist plot.

[trader1]

^ *(Ulysses) Well, you are certainly not speaking for women, I hope.

There are some Thai male/Western female relationships, just not as many as the reverse because of the sheer abundance and dominance of the Thai female dating/sex market, both here in LOS, online, and increasingly abroad. The gender roles and expectations are also generally much harder for Western women to accept than Western men. We are also much less inclined to accept looks as the primary benefit of a relationships.

*Therefore, the numbers of Western women/Thai men, are probably more reflective of a realistic number that would account for the difficulty of hooking up in the midst of complex cultural differences.

It could be also that western women are relatively unattractive, physically and emotionally, compared to Asian women?

I've been an expat for over 15 years and live with my Japanese GF(over 20 years younger than me, won a beauty contest 2 years ago, graduate good Tokyo uni., salary almost at my level) here in Bangkok. I would, I am sure, be just as happy with a beautiful farang GF who is equally demure and responsive, but they seem few and far between..

A thai guy comparing the market will also - I suspect - find that beautiful, young etc etc farang women are much rarer than their Thai counterparts.

[Boo]

Is this topic really going anywhere or is it just another excuse for people to get their jabs in?

[kat]

Well, it's no surprise that you are assuming that the Western men in question are some kind of prize. Your explanation still doesn't account for the availability of these relationships to just about any Western man. A similar arrangement with a much younger Western woman is much less frequently occurring with the same population than it is in LOS.

I think there are a lot more Thai men that would be interested in relationships with Western women if given the chance than you think.

[sonicdragon]

Rob Kissel was my boss !!! A very sad story

[Misty]

Rob Kissel was my boss !!! A very sad story

Hey sonicdragon, it does sound like a very sad story.

There appear to be at least two versions of it. For example the OP's link focuses on the perils of infidelity--in this case, all case--his.

But the following link has a different and perhaps more complicated take of what went wrong: http://www.mensvogue.com/magazine/articles...h?currentPage=1

If you care to comment, I'd be interested in learning which one rings truer to you?

[orchis]

given the chance [/color] than you think.

Isn't it up to western women to give that chance then?

Thai women and western men seem to do fine with the arrangements they find here,

to the exclusion of western women, unfortunate as this may be.

I think that stings you most.

Edited February 14, 2008 by orchis

[bendix]

I love the term feminazi; feminism has gone to far and did more wrong then good ... it's a sad fact and I'm deeply disappointed that Bendix defend those b!itches

I'm not a little man, I don't fear them; I say it out loud and not only on this forum, but also as much as I can in their faces; they're wrong and they have to stop insulting my mother and take a step back; they're causing a total unbalance in the Western world, just as the Nazi's did during WOII, that's why the term feminazi is spot on!

they're are a treat to society and should be stopped by all means !

I'm deeply disappointed i deeply disappointed you. I wasn't defending anyone; I was simply slamming the casual and intellectually sloppy labelling of people in this way. I no more condone militant feminism than I condone excessive male bigotism; both are morally reprehensible and, frankly, all a bit embarassing.

To label the author of that article (or even Gloria Steinem) as a feminazi because you disagree with her is nonsense.

The author of that article produced a story which pretty much tells us pretty much what we already know. For many expat guys (especially those who leave their wives behind) Asia postings are dangerous grounds for their marriage. Bugger me - it aint rocket science.

On the other side, her article was ruined with some very sloppy generalising. One comment in particular was laughable: where she said that single guys in hotels get unsolicited calls and visits to their rooms regularly. Huh? That's pure fantasy. I stay alone in hotels in Manila, Jakarta, HK, Taipei, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, KL etc around 100 nights a year and have done for the last five years; I've never once had an unsolicited call or visit.

That sort of thing is just lazy sloppy journalism which detracts, sadly, from the over-riding thrust of the article.

Oh .. and I'm afraid I can't take any journalist who uses Warren Olsen's testimony as proof very seriously either.

[Boo]

unfortunately to the exclusion of western women. I think that stings you most.

I know no western women who care what western men or thai women do but these are in the 20-45 age range, own money, good looks & personalities to match so most of the men described in the thread & op (married expats, sex pats or even older long termers with thai wives or gf's) don't even hit their radar (why would married men or pervs?) They are busy living their lives wthout the need to care what you lot do.

You can "assume" people are bothered you but that is really personal paranoia. Really, maybe some are but don't presume that all give a crap cause they really don't

[GuestHouse]

The article was about expats, marital relationships, infidelity and postings abroad, particularly Asia and Hong Kong.

Indeed it is, and as an expat who works for a multinational and who has direct experience of being posted in Thailand with other expats for an multinional - I find the article to be pretty accurate.

[sonicdragon]

Rob Kissel was my boss !!! A very sad story

Hey sonicdragon, it does sound like a very sad story.

There appear to be at least two versions of it. For example the OP's link focuses on the perils of infidelity--in this case, all case--his.

But the following link has a different and perhaps more complicated take of what went wrong: http://www.mensvogue.com/magazine/articles...h?currentPage=1

If you care to comment, I'd be interested in learning which one rings truer to you?

The mensvogue excerpt is more believable to me than the infidelity story, but I think most people who knew Rob have a hard time believing his marriage was as troubled as is made out. But we all know that appearances can be deceptive. I met Nancy on several social occasions and there was not the slighest indication of trouble and it was never mentioned by Rob. I do remember him having is hand in plaster after fracturing a knuckle the night before - he said they had argued (I forget over what) and he punched the wall in frustration. I don't believe stories about coccaine at all, or womanising of any kind - I never saw any evidence of either.

[Samuian]

We are also much less inclined to accept looks as the primary benefit of a relationships.

Money, Real Estate, Aston Martin, social standing... is far more important, that is true!

*Therefore, the numbers of Western women/Thai men, are probably more reflective of a realistic number that would account for the difficulty of hooking up in the midst of complex cultural differences.

As you generalize, there are NO Caucasian hookers at all, there are NO "western women" who would "sell their soul" for a better life and loads of money, there are NO western women married to much younger partners... can help with some examples...come on - stop dreaming, it's the core of the dating game since our times!

What is wrong with it... one and the other does benefit from "the deal" anywhere on the planet, try and change it!

[Dupont]

unfortunately to the exclusion of western women. I think that stings you most.

I know no western women who care what western men or thai women do but these are in the 20-45 age range, own money, good looks & personalities to match so most of the men described in the thread & op (married expats, sex pats or even older long termers with thai wives or gf's) don't even hit their radar (why would married men or pervs?) They are busy living their lives wthout the need to care what you lot do.

You can "assume" people are bothered you but that is really personal paranoia. Really, maybe some are but don't presume that all give a crap cause they really don't

You all give enough of a crap to keep coming out with your sterotyping! Your groupings above do TV a massive diservice. You, whilst entitled to your opinions should be rising above this kind of thing.

One of the problems western women and western dwelling men have is that the prevaiiling Politically Correct, left wing insulting and labelling of men has gone unchallenge in the west. By lazyness, wimping out by the rump stock of males at home, or just the decent into laddish, rapstar/hoddie behaviour.

You/they will happy trot out all kinds of rubbish as fact. You all seem totally at ease labelling every male with a Thai wife as a sad looser, as if its a fact.... Well ladies, it isn;t.

This debate is being increasingly polarised and falling in with other sites which debate these issues in totally negative ways. ie all men are sad loosers, and all white women are barren lonely spinster, feminazi (this is by no means a new term) loud mouths.

Neither is true and when you try to slip these stereotypes into your supposed factual analysis of issues out here, you tar your self with the same brush as the very people you despise.

Now behave!!!!!!!!! All of you

[Boo]

where am i steroetyping in the part you have highlighted. The article was about married expats being posted to asia, the topic then moved along to married long term residents & mention was made of sexpats. Where is the problem?? As I stated, none of the women I know would go after a married man, regardless of who he was married to & neither would they be interested in someone who came for a sex holiday so these men do not register.

So sorry, unless you have completely misread what I wrote or have just decided to take umbrage at something that isn't there then I don't know what your going on about, so please clarify where I have made a stereotype or said men with thai wives are losers (your words not mine). What I gave was an opinion based on the expat women I know asa reply to the assumption made that we are somehow bothered by your relationships. So, just for clarification, they aren't & dont' care

[Smithson]

That's true, but in the West, the reasons for people getting together are much more distributed among a normal curve. In LOS, it is much more significantly skewed toward a similar pattern. There are widely known and widely documented reasons for this. That skewed pattern is what the article is talking about, and I am saying that it is very real, and not a sensationalist plot.

While I agree the article is fairly accurate, I didn't see any reference to 'skewed patterns'. I'd be very interested to see this pattern and also the 'normal curve'. Is it a graph?

[steveromagnino]

kat said.....

given the chance [/color] than you think.

Isn't it up to western women to give that chance then?

Thai women and western men seem to do fine with the arrangements they find here,

to the exclusion of western women, unfortunate as this may be.

I think that stings you most.

Point is that there are not screeds of single women coming here to date the locals; that is almost exclusively male territory. The western women I know that live here, not already in relationships, they seem happy enough to date whoever; some date Thai some don't. You simply don't have the obsessive 'must date an Asian and be all mystical' desires that some men seem to have. I suspect women have a bit more sense than men in matters such as these. For sure a number of my Thai male friends (a couple of actors and models in particular) had a major dose of farang fever, and I cannot recall of any single women turning them down here or elsewhere. As with western men for the most part having rather odd ideas of what makes a Thai person attractive compared to how the locals think, the local Thai men and women have sometimes rather odd ideas of what makes a western person attractive. Which many western men probably greatly appreciate (the big stomach, it shows jai dee etc).

Suffice to say that most western women wouldn't struggle too much to get a date except for a western guy, as just IMHO there are few decent western guys here who aren't already in a relationship (with a local or an import).

The ironic thing is having been bailed up in a couple of other threads in just the last few days, it is abundantly clear that there are many Thai women and western men where the western men have anything BUT a fine time with the arrangements as is...search sin sot, Thai wife is a filthy lying whore, all Thai people are liars, etc type threads and you will discover that many aren't doing so good. By comparison I'd say the western woman Thai man relationships I know of (and i know of maybe 20+ as of right now, and have met countless examples over the years) are running probably in the 30-50% success range, with fewer ending in massive fights like we see here on line from time to time. In part that's because of skewed sample, most of the THai men with western wives come from affluent backgrounds, studied abroad, met at work etc - I don't know the equivalent of the working class Thai man relationship with an affluent woman e.g. boat boy as much because sadly i don't get to mix with too many of that group; the boat guys in Phuket would be one of the only group that I've spent any time talking to in racing my yacht, and the amount of cross cultural sperm distribution some of those guys do would put a fair few sexpat track records to shaaaaaaaaaaaame.

So...I doubt there is much 'sting' here from the women.

Ulysses

>>As far as me speaking for women goes, I do think that it is very difficult for most Western women to have a lover who is shorter than they are. I think this is as silly as women think we men are for being obsessed with large breasts, but, right or wrong, this is how many, many people feel.

Possibly; although large numbers of the Thais studying abroad don't have the upcountry nutrition problems and are thus generally reasonably tall anyhow. It cannot be any more rediculous than the stereotypical midget woman with the husband towering over her. And I say that with a mum 149cm tall, and a dad 184cm ;-) The fact is, the pool of potential white women for a Thai guy to date here is relatively small compared to the masses of english teachers, expat postings (who tend to be male anyway) and tourists... plus the sexpats. Almost all the Thais I know who have been single living abroad while studying or whatever all dated locals over there at least at some point. never heard of height being an issue; some were well hooked up in NZ where their relative wealth and good dress sense (NZ white guys really used to look lame a few years back) plus fancy cars enabled them to hook into some hot totty.

Even as a youngster, while gettin bashed up for not being white on the bus and whatever, there were always a few hot farang chicks with a dose of yellow fever back when I was a kid to ensure someone to 'dance with' at socials and the like.

Sorry about the quotes...stuffed it again.

Edited February 14, 2008 by steveromagnino

[AmericanGuy1066]

unfortunately to the exclusion of western women. I think that stings you most.

I know no western women who care what western men or thai women do but these are in the 20-45 age range, own money, good looks & personalities to match so most of the men described in the thread & op (married expats, sex pats or even older long termers with thai wives or gf's) don't even hit their radar (why would married men or pervs?) They are busy living their lives wthout the need to care what you lot do.

You can "assume" people are bothered you but that is really personal paranoia. Really, maybe some are but don't presume that all give a crap cause they really don't

You all give enough of a crap to keep coming out with your sterotyping! Your groupings above do TV a massive diservice. You, whilst entitled to your opinions should be rising above this kind of thing.

One of the problems western women and western dwelling men have is that the prevaiiling Politically Correct, left wing insulting and labelling of men has gone unchallenge in the west. By lazyness, wimping out by the rump stock of males at home, or just the decent into laddish, rapstar/hoddie behaviour.

You/they will happy trot out all kinds of rubbish as fact. You all seem totally at ease labelling every male with a Thai wife as a sad looser, as if its a fact.... Well ladies, it isn;t.

This debate is being increasingly polarised and falling in with other sites which debate these issues in totally negative ways. ie all men are sad loosers, and all white women are barren lonely spinster, feminazi (this is by no means a new term) loud mouths.

Neither is true and when you try to slip these stereotypes into your supposed factual analysis of issues out here, you tar your self with the same brush as the very people you despise.

Now behave!!!!!!!!! All of you

Sorry Boo you are factually incorrect. You do have such friends. Kat is listed as your friend in profiles. A quick browse thru her threads shows how she struggled to make female Thai friends here and continually attacks western males. No wonder she is now back in the US.

She has gone on record as saying:

- The overwhelming majority of expat males in Thailand are past their prime and have reationships with girls 20 years younger than them

- Many Thai women think a large proportion of western men smell

- Western men drive Thai women to prostitution.

- The majority of western male Thai female relationships are abnormal

There are 3 ladies on here who should know better. You are one of them. People like Kat should be suspended. Nor is Donna's comment that it is because she has a "diferent opinion" acceptable. She has insulted a large number of males on here, by simply trying to mix a few facts with her own twisted views and let's be honest, outright insults. You and Donna seem to condone it. Seonai laughs it off and apparently finds nothing wrong either.

I raised a thread the other day about lack of equality on Thai visa rules. You closed it. It's quite obvious why. Three ladies on here who should know better seem to find nothing wrong with posts like Kats, and they don't consider they breach the rules.

Please take this as a formal complaint, and have the guts to let it stand, instead of deleting it.

Edited February 14, 2008 by AmericanGuy1066

[Boo]

If you have a formal complaint then you were given, in the thread you are talking about, the right place to raise it.

As for your other comments about my friends, you are well off mark there & clutching at straws but it seems you have formed your opinion & you have your soap box & axe to grind. Your thread in support was closed with a valid explanation, shame you can't admit that. So again I will tell you, raise it the right way but don't hijack other threads with your issues over it.

[AmericanGuy1066]

If you have a formal complaint then you were given, in the thread you are talking about, the right place to raise it.

As for your other comments about my friends, you are well off mark there but it seems you have made you opinion & you have your soap box & axe to grind. Your thread in support was closed with a valid explanaition, shame you can't admit that. So again, raise it the right way but don't hijack other threads with your issues over it..

Actually this was one of the threads that prompted my other post. My issue is I find this woman's posts insulting, and that you do nothing about it. Donna positively encourages her. I think that highly relevant to this thread.

As for being "way off mark". Anyone looking at your profile or Kat's sees you listed as "friends".

Edited February 14, 2008 by AmericanGuy1066

[Boo]

yes & there are a few other people listed as friends who I have also never met in person . This is thaivisa internet forum friends, I have no energy to explain the concept to you but it should be obvious.

But again, you have been given the right place (& now by pm as well in case you didn't see it printed in the other thread) where to, correctly raise your concerns & just a reminder, you were also told in the other thread to use the report button too if there was something you didn't agree with.

[kat]

Isn't it up to western women to give that chance then?

Thai women and western men seem to do fine with the arrangements they find here,

to the exclusion of western women, unfortunate as this may be.

I think that stings you most.

No, not at all because the swath of expats from the demographic we are discussing were never my type, neither at home or abroad. There were plenty of other men to meet in other demographics though, like the men traveling through or who were in Thailand for pursuits other than women.

On the other side, her article was ruined with some very sloppy generalising. One comment in particular was laughable: where she said that single guys in hotels get unsolicited calls and visits to their rooms regularly. Huh? That's pure fantasy. I stay alone in hotels in Manila, Jakarta, HK, Taipei, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, KL etc around 100 nights a year and have done for the last five years; I've never once had an unsolicited call or visit.

Sorry Bendix, but I am going to have to disagree with you here. I think you are correct that a better article could have gone more in-depth with her comparisons, but her job was to report on a trend and a phenomenon, which she did. It is also not pure fantasy that men of all sorts are approached everywhere and constantly in Thailand, especially in hotels. I am sure you know this, and I would be very surprised if you denied it. It is also not pure fantasy that they are treated or pursued at times like a sort of celebrity just because they are foreign males, and I have seen this myself. Many men have commented on this, and in fact if this was not the case it would not be as easy as it is for every specimen of the male species to find a girlfriend in Thailand as easily as they do.

We are also much less inclined to accept looks as the primary benefit of a relationships.

Money, Real Estate, Aston Martin, social standing... is far more important, that is true!

*Therefore, the numbers of Western women/Thai men, are probably more reflective of a realistic number that would account for the difficulty of hooking up in the midst of complex cultural differences.

As you generalize, there are NO Caucasian hookers at all, there are NO "western women" who would "sell their soul" for a better life and loads of money, there are NO western women married to much younger partners... can help with some examples...come on - stop dreaming, it's the core of the dating game since our times!

What is wrong with it... one and the other does benefit from "the deal" anywhere on the planet, try and change it!

Yes, it is true that there are women everywhere who are more interested in the financial assets of a man before marriage, but in the West there is more of a distribution of women who are not as interested, as a larger sample of couples would bear out. If you have only encountered the financial sort, then that may have more to do with your self-selection.

That's true, but in the West, the reasons for people getting together are much more distributed among a normal curve. In LOS, it is much more significantly skewed toward a similar pattern. There are widely known and widely documented reasons for this. That skewed pattern is what the article is talking about, and I am saying that it is very real, and not a sensationalist plot.

While I agree the article is fairly accurate, I didn't see any reference to 'skewed patterns'. I'd be very interested to see this pattern and also the 'normal curve'. Is it a graph?

No, not in the article, but in the defense of her premise, if we could imagine the population in a graph, it would not be a normal curve in LOS, but very skewed toward a predominant set of demographics.

So...I doubt there is much 'sting' here from the women.

Even as a youngster, while gettin bashed up for not being white on the bus and whatever, there were always a few hot farang chicks with a dose of yellow fever back when I was a kid to ensure someone to 'dance with' at socials and the like.

"Steve", I doubt it was "yellow fever" or the car, or the boat ... you are just hot, piss poor or not. Deal with it!

[kat]

If you have a formal complaint then you were given, in the thread you are talking about, the right place to raise it.

As for your other comments about my friends, you are well off mark there but it seems you have made you opinion & you have your soap box & axe to grind. Your thread in support was closed with a valid explanaition, shame you can't admit that. So again, raise it the right way but don't hijack other threads with your issues over it..

Actually this was one of the threads that prompted my other post. My issue is I find this woman's posts insulting, and that you do nothing about it. Donna positively encourages her. I think that highly relevant to this thread.

As for being "way off mark". Anyone looking at your profile or Kat's sees you listed as "friends".

So, what, Bendix an array of others are also listed as my "friends" but I've never actually met him. That is just a list of people I have both met and who are actually friends, and those who I like on the forum and may not actually be friends in the real world, or may not even think the same way. The friend's list is just simply a casual application on the forum.

However, I am friends with "Steve", and can fully attest to his "hotness" in real life; that part is definitely as true in real life as it is in the virtual world.

[sbk]

Well, having read the thread, I personally think some posters have completely overreacted and have decided that it is easier to point fingers and make it personal than to have a real debate. It is late, and these threads always degenerate into nastiness so I really see no need to continue this.

///CLOSED//