Monks?advice On Giving Money To Begging Monks?

[actiondell4]

I am looking for some advice on this.

Last week I travelled around the Issan areas,I went a few times by bus,from Udon Thani to Loei and back to Khon Kaen etc,so I made around 6 trips.

Anyway to cut to the chase,on my first bus ride I sat up the back of the bus and a monk who was sitting near me asked where i was going to and was friendly.

I noticed a Thai younger guy sitting near him look as if he was to pay the monks bus fare when the conductor came around,this monk didnt ask me for anything,money or anything else but i gave him a bottle of water.

He was clean,shaven etc.

Ok second trip,I sit up the back of the bus ,a young fit looking monk,very clean looking is also sitting up the back of the bus looking into his mobile phone.

Im thinking if he is as friendly as the monk i saw the previous day so i say hello to him and asked if he wanted a bottle of water,he turned his head and looked at me as if i was a piece of street garbage,and went back to his mobile phone,so i ignored him and drank the water myself,thinking what a arrogant monk.

Anyway a few miles up ahead the bus stops and a old unshaven monk with no teeth gets on,anyway he has a swagbackpack with him and walks up to the back of the bus towards me,well im a friendly bloke so i start helping him and he smiles and sits next to me,in between the young arrogant monk and myself.

He is about 70yo,no teeth,limited english,unshaven,his monk uniform is dirty.

Anyway the arrogant monk ignores him and doesnt speak to the old monk,so anyway after a bit of limited Thai,the old monk guy asks me to pay his bus fare which i do.

I then give him a bottle of water which hes grateful and very friendly old bloke.

All this is going on,and occasionaly i see those glances from the arrogant young twards the old monk ,with nasty sort of facial expressions.

Anyway the old monk doesnt talk to the arrogant young monk,or should i say the other way around.

Anyway the old monk starts blessing me,taking both my hands and humming to give me good luck,and then asks for 100 baht which i give him.

Whilst the old monk was blessing me the arrogant clean young monk starts giving him dirty looks and after i pay him the 100 baht the young arrogant monk says something to the old monk,the old monk then thanks me and gets off at the next stop.

I then say to the arrogant young monk what he said to the old monk but he looks at me and waves his hand as if to say "shut up".

As he was very fit looking i decideed not proceed with questioning him.

However i spoke to a friendly hire car driver who told me,"real monks do not ask for money".

He said he thinks the old monk guy could be a "copy" and more likely the young arrogant one was the "real" thing.

What do you think? Are there low class monks and high class?

[Khun Jean]

A begging monk is no monk. As the driver told you.

[sbk]

Moved to Buddhism forum

///MOVED///

[BigSnake]

A true Monk will not ask for CASH. The one that do are FAKE and if you give cash just follow him to the nearest place for drugs or booze.

[jdinasia]

if you felt like you did a good thing , does it matter?

I have been approached by a monk outside of HuaHin offering to sell me a house. So what? He wasn't an ideal monk. I don't think I have ever been asked directly for cash from a monk.

The 'arrogant' monk as you put it, has issues. again ... so what? Not my place to worry about it

My dealings with ordained monks in Thailand has been overwhelmingly positive, but they are still people underneath the monks robes, to expect them not to be is silly.

regarding 'class', monks come from all aspects of Thai society, what do you think the answer is?

[mellow1]

I'm not Buddhist, so no reason to even consider giving money, nor anything else. Are you Buddhist?

[Aries74]

I'm not Buddhist, so no reason to even consider giving money, nor anything else. Are you Buddhist?

Monks should not ask for money. Monks blessing does not change your situations. Better keep your money or give your money to who really need help.

[bankei]

ideally monks should not ask for money. But many legitimate monks do. There is no way of telling if a monk is properly ordained by whether they ask for money. Same goes for monks playing with mobile phones - looking at pictures etc. Good monks don't ask for money, but the average monk is not good.

[Ulysses G.]

However i spoke to a friendly hire car driver who told me,"real monks do not ask for money".

He said he thinks the old monk guy could be a "copy" and more likely the young arrogant one was the "real" thing.

What do you think? Are there low class monks and high class?

No there are real monks and fake monks. The 'freindly" one was an old con artist!

[jdinasia]

ideally monks should not ask for money. But many legitimate monks do. There is no way of telling if a monk is properly ordained by whether they ask for money. Same goes for monks playing with mobile phones - looking at pictures etc. Good monks don't ask for money, but the average monk is not good.

You could ask to see their yellow book ... after asking them how long they have been ordained

[AnotherATM]

ideally monks should not ask for money. But many legitimate monks do. There is no way of telling if a monk is properly ordained by whether they ask for money. Same goes for monks playing with mobile phones - looking at pictures etc. Good monks don't ask for money, but the average monk is not good.

The Vinaya rules state that monks must not have contact with money (wouldn't that be a bitch for Big-C). Any monk that does is not legitimate as he is not recognising the rules to which he must comply to qualify for that position.

[jdinasia]

ideally monks should not ask for money. But many legitimate monks do. There is no way of telling if a monk is properly ordained by whether they ask for money. Same goes for monks playing with mobile phones - looking at pictures etc. Good monks don't ask for money, but the average monk is not good.

The Vinaya rules state that monks must not have contact with money (wouldn't that be a bitch for Big-C). Any monk that does is not legitimate as he is not recognising the rules to which he must comply to qualify for that position.

hence the square of silk cloth which you can certainly put the money into

[AnotherATM]

hence the square of silk cloth which you can certainly put the money into

Sure, you can, but my Ajahn, who practiced the rules stringently, would always pull the cloth away if somebody attempted to put money on it. When I asked him why he did that he quoted the above-mentioned rule to me.

[jdinasia]

hence the square of silk cloth which you can certainly put the money into

Sure, you can, but my Ajahn, who practiced the rules stringently, would always pull the cloth away if somebody attempted to put money on it. When I asked him why he did that he quoted the above-mentioned rule to me.

LOL .. well he certainly is allowed to interpret that rule as he see's fit. However, that would not be in keeping with anything approaching common practice in Thailand amongst Thai monks considered to be in keeping with the rules

[AnotherATM]

LOL .. well he certainly is allowed to interpret that rule as he see's fit. However, that would not be in keeping with anything approaching common practice in Thailand amongst Thai monks considered to be in keeping with the rules

But I thought rules were rules and applied to everyone. Or are they open for interpretation to suit the individual? I think he would disagree.

Edited March 23, 2008 by AnotherATM

[Aries74]

Monks are human just like us. Humans are greedy when it comes to money. Who don't like money.

We supposed to respect monks, we should respect who earned respect.

[jdinasia]

LOL .. well he certainly is allowed to interpret that rule as he see's fit. However, that would not be in keeping with anything approaching common practice in Thailand amongst Thai monks considered to be in keeping with the rules

But I thought rules were rules and applied to everyone. Or are they open for interpretation to suit the individual? I think he would disagree.

As it is common practice to make a cash donation to monks for many many reasons and that the practice is to give the monk the cash by placing it in a piece of cloth that the monk carries for that purpose. I would say that his interpretation of this is far stricter than common. Wouldn't you?

[clausewitz]

LOL .. well he certainly is allowed to interpret that rule as he see's fit. However, that would not be in keeping with anything approaching common practice in Thailand amongst Thai monks considered to be in keeping with the rules

But I thought rules were rules and applied to everyone. Or are they open for interpretation to suit the individual? I think he would disagree.

As it is common practice to make a cash donation to monks for many many reasons and that the practice is to give the monk the cash by placing it in a piece of cloth that the monk carries for that purpose. I would say that his interpretation of this is far stricter than common. Wouldn't you?

there is never any circumstance where a monk is permitted to accept money. Putting it on cloth does is making a pretense and is probably worse as preteding one is abiding by rules is adding to delusion.

[jdinasia]

sorry Clause ... that just isn't accurate at all

[clausewitz]

A Life Free from Money:

Information about the Money Rules for Buddhist Monks and Nuns

Bhikkhu Dhamminda

This manuscript may be reproduced without the permission of the author

-Contents

Information about the Money Rules

This article was written for the many bhikkhus who have asked me questions about the money rules found in the Vinaya. Since a newly ordained bhikkhu has little chance of being able to read the commentaries I have translated many sections from there. I hope that there is sufficient information in this article to help bhikkhus to understand how to keep these rules.

Part 1. Information for Lay Supporters

Do you know that the Buddha did not allow monks and novices to accept money?

You will certainly have noticed that the vast majority of monks do accept and use money. This is one of the factors that will lead to the disappearance of the Buddha´s Teaching. You can help to keep the Buddha´s Teaching alive by learning how to offer allowable requisites.

In this section we will list the main points that a layperson should remember so that a monk (bhikkhu) may obtain requisites without breaking the rules of Vinaya.

1. Never offer money to bhikkhus, but only offer allowable requisites such as robes, medicine, books, or tickets for transport. If you are unsure as to what a bhikkhu needs then you can ask him, or invite him to ask you if he needs anything.

2. A fund for requisites can be left with a kappiya (someone who performs services for a bhikkhu) and he should be instructed to buy and offer requisites for a bhikkhu, a group of bhikkhus, or the sangha of a monastery. Do not ask the bhikkhu, `To whom should this be given to?´ If you ask in this way then it is not allowable for a bhikkhu to point out a kappiya. Simply say, `Venerable Sir, I want to offer requisites to you. Who is your kappiya?´

3. Having instructed the kappiya then inform the bhikkhu by saying, `I have left a fund for requisites worth `x´ dollars with your kappiya. When you need requisites ask him and he will offer them to you.´

4. If you already know who the bhikkhu´s kappiya is then you can simply leave the fund with the kappiya and inform the bhikkhu as above in no 3.

Please read the above carefully and take note of what to say. The above procedure was allowed by the Buddha in what is called the `Mendaka allowance´. It is found in the Bhesajja Khandhaka of Mahavagga in the Vinaya Pitaka and the translation of it reads:

Bhikkhus, there are people of faith and respect and if they should entrust money in the hands of a kappiya and instruct him saying, `With this money offer allowable requisites to this Venerable One,´ then bhikkhus I allow you to accept whatever allowable requisites are obtained with that money, but bhikkhus, in no way whatsoever do I allow money to be accepted or searched for.´

Also a rule called Raja-sikkhapada, the tenth rule of the Kathina Vagga in the Nissaggiya Pacittiya section of the Patimokkha gives relevant information. It is translated as follows:

QUOTE

If a king, a king´s officer, a brahmin, or a layperson should send a messenger with money in order to buy a robe for a bhikkhu saying, `Having bought a robe with this money offer it to such and such a bhikkhu,´ and if that messenger should approach that bhikkhu and say, `Venerable Sir, this money for buying a robe has been brought here for you. Venerable Sir, please accept this money for buying a robe.´ Then that bhikkhu should say to that messenger, `We do not accept money for buying a robe, we accept robes if they are offered at an appropriate time and if they are allowable.´

If then that messenger should ask, `Venerable Sir, is there anyone who performs services for you?´ Then if that bhikkhu wants a robe he should point out someone who performs services for him be he a monastery attendant or a layperson saying, `Such and such performs services for bhikkhus.´

If that messenger having instructed that person who performs services should then approach that bhikkhu and say, `That person who you pointed out has been instructed by me. Venerable Sir, approach him at an appropriate time and he will offer you a robe.´ Then a bhikkhu who wants a robe having approached that person who performs services can ask or remind him two or three times saying, `I need a robe.´

If having asked or reminded two or three times he obtains that robe then that is good. If he should not obtain it then he can stand silently for four, five, or six times in order to obtain that robe. If having stood silently for four, five, or six times he obtains that robe then that is good. If he should make any more effort than this and he obtains that robe then it is a nissaggiya pacittiya offense.

If he does not obtain that robe then he should go himself or he should send a messenger to that person who sent that money for buying a robe and say, `That money for buying a robe for a bhikkhu that you sent has produced nothing at all for that bhikkhu, try to get your money returned to you lest your money be lost.´ This is what should be done.

Part 2. The Fault in Accepting Money

Before he passed away the Buddha said that after his death the sangha, if it wanted to, could revoke the lesser and minor rules of the Vinaya. Some bhikkhus quote this as a reason to support their acceptance of money, but the following quotes from the suttas show that the rules prohibiting money are not lesser or minor rules. The money rules are shown by these quotes to be fundamental and essential for the attainment of enlightenment. Maniculaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatana Samyutta, Gamani Vagga, sutta no. 10):

QUOTE

At one time, the Blessed One was living in Rajagaha in the place where squirrels and birds were fed called Veluvana. At that time in the king´s palace, the king´s retinue were assembled and whilst assembled this conversation arose amongst them:

`Gold, silver, and money are allowable for those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince (the Buddha). Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince consent to gold, silver, and money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince accept gold, silver, and money.´

Then at that time Maniculaka the village headman was sitting present in that assembly and he spoke to that assembly saying:

`Good sirs, do not say that. Gold, silver, and money are not allowable for those monks who are sons of the Sakyan prince. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not consent to gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not accept gold, silver, and money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince have renounced gold and gems and are without money.´

But Maniculaka the village headman was unable to convince that assembly.

Then Maniculaka the village headman went to the Blessed One, and having approached the Blessed One bowed to him and sat down at one side. While sitting at one side Maniculaka the village headman said to the Blessed One:

`Venerable Sir, in the king´s palace the king´s retinue were assembled... (He repeated all that had been said above.)... But Venerable Sir, I was not able to convince that assembly.

`Venerable Sir, by thus explaining am I one who speaks what is said by the Blessed One or have I falsely misrepresented the Blessed One? Have I answered in accordance with this Teaching or would someone speaking in accordance with this Teaching find reason to blame me?´

(The Blessed One:) `Truly you, headman, by thus explaining are one who speaks what is said by me and did not falsely misrepresent me. You have answered in accordance with this Teaching and someone speaking in accordance with this Teaching would not find reason to blame you.

`For, headman, gold, silver, and money are not allowable for those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not consent to gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince do not accept gold, silver, or money. Those monks who are the sons of the Sakyan prince have renounced gold and gems and are without money.

`Headman, for whoever gold, silver, or money are allowable then for him the five types of sense pleasure are allowable. For whoever the five types of sense pleasure are allowable you can be certain, "He does not possess the nature of a monk, he does not possess the nature of a son of the Sakyan prince."

`Headman, really I say this, "By a monk who needs grass, grass can be searched for. For a monk who needs timber, timber can be searched for. For a monk who needs a cart, a cart can be searched for." But, headman, I also say, "In no way whatsoever can gold, silver, or money be accepted or searched for."´

[orchis]

That's true. Monks shouldn t handle cash.

[jdinasia]

No , monks shouldn't handle cash ... if they come from a tradition etc where that is not allowed.

again that doesn't work out to monks in Thailand cannot be given cash.

I still can't find any biography on the guy that Clause was quoting.

[AnotherATM]

Common practice and preferred tradition are surely irrelevant. If a person has gone through ordination he has accepted the Vinaya rules, which include not handling money. If he can ignore that rule then what others will he also ignore?

If one chooses to ignore the rules then he is no more than a man in fancy dress; one of those who are in it for the free ride. We read of stories in the news about monks (or men in monk outfits) committing all kinds of offences (rape, murder, bestiality). There are those who change out of their robes at weekends and hit the night clubs, probably with the cash they’ve conned from the ignorant throughout the week. I’ve been in temples where I’ve seen monks eating in the afternoon, smoking and drinking whiskey. Still, people come and bow down to them.

They are all human and vulnerable to the same corruptions as the rest of us, but they are supposed to be practicing methods of overcoming such corruption which is why they take vows to abide by the Vinaya rules. No money, no MP3 player, no camera, no whiskey, no food after midday... Given up the worldly life, taking no more than food, clothing, shelter and medicine that are freely offered, thus earning the respect that so many Thai people seem so show them, simply because they are wearing robes.

Does the ordination ceremony include opt-out clauses for any rules the monk chooses not to abide by?

Saffron robes do not a monk make!

[ozzydom]

The back seat of a bus is generally reserved for Monks ,if you sit there and a Monk boards you are expected to give up the seat.

The same goes for the passenger seat in the front of a baht bus/truck.

[bankei]

The rule regarding handling of money is only a minor rule. Minor rules are broken all the time - eg standing while drinking, standing while urinating, digging the earth, etc.

This rule actually refers to gold, not money, so many believe they are not breaking the rule by touching money. But i guess this is not keeping the spirit of the rule which is renouncing wealth, and all the problems that go with it.

Some monks think of themselves as being strict by not physically touching money, but still accept it in envelopes etc. Temple boys them keep it for them or put it into their bank accounts. This is keeping the rule too, but not keeping the spirit of the rule.

In Thailand there is only a very small minority of monks that do not handle or have money.

[Brucenkhamen]

The rule regarding handling of money is only a minor rule. Minor rules are broken all the time - eg standing while drinking, standing while urinating, digging the earth, etc.

This rule actually refers to gold, not money, so many believe they are not breaking the rule by touching money. But i guess this is not keeping the spirit of the rule which is renouncing wealth, and all the problems that go with it.

Some monks think of themselves as being strict by not physically touching money, but still accept it in envelopes etc. Temple boys them keep it for them or put it into their bank accounts. This is keeping the rule too, but not keeping the spirit of the rule.

In Thailand there is only a very small minority of monks that do not handle or have money.

The rule about handling money is certainly not a minor rule, it is one of the Nissaggiya Pacittiya and requires confession and forfeiture, as opposed to standing while drinking, standing while urinating etc which are Sekhiyatiavatta and are just "trainings".

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...o/layguide.html for more information.

I haven't heard of anyone genuinely believing that as money (or credit cards etc) is not gold so doesn't count.

I have seen monks accepting envelopes with money in it and was disappointed as this is clearly against the rules, see the above reference. However it is perfectly acceptable for temple boys to handle it on their behalf to use to purchase their requisites (ie not to play the stockmarket for example).

I don't believe that only a small minority of monks in Thailand observe this rule, it's one of the easier ones to keep in Thailand, and breaking it is very "public" and people see them doing it.

I've found most observe it, but then I've mostly been in contact with Forest monks.

[CuriousGeorge77]

How does one go searching for timber these days?

My wife has spent some time in a temple on several occaisions, although not ordained (of course!), and she says one of the best things about it is that you don't have to worry about anything - money doesn't come into the picture. This leads me to believe that Brucenkhaman is right about most people do observe the rule - at least so far as the spirit goes.

[bankei]

The rule regarding handling of money is only a minor rule. Minor rules are broken all the time - eg standing while drinking, standing while urinating, digging the earth, etc.

This rule actually refers to gold, not money, so many believe they are not breaking the rule by touching money. But i guess this is not keeping the spirit of the rule which is renouncing wealth, and all the problems that go with it.

Some monks think of themselves as being strict by not physically touching money, but still accept it in envelopes etc. Temple boys them keep it for them or put it into their bank accounts. This is keeping the rule too, but not keeping the spirit of the rule.

In Thailand there is only a very small minority of monks that do not handle or have money.

The rule about handling money is certainly not a minor rule, it is one of the Nissaggiya Pacittiya and requires confession and forfeiture, as opposed to standing while drinking, standing while urinating etc which are Sekhiyatiavatta and are just "trainings".

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...o/layguide.html for more information.

I haven't heard of anyone genuinely believing that as money (or credit cards etc) is not gold so doesn't count.

I have seen monks accepting envelopes with money in it and was disappointed as this is clearly against the rules, see the above reference. However it is perfectly acceptable for temple boys to handle it on their behalf to use to purchase their requisites (ie not to play the stockmarket for example).

I don't believe that only a small minority of monks in Thailand observe this rule, it's one of the easier ones to keep in Thailand, and breaking it is very "public" and people see them doing it.

I've found most observe it, but then I've mostly been in contact with Forest monks.

Hi Bruce

The only monks that I have seen that observe the rule were the forest monks of Acharn Cha's lineage.

In Bangkok I constantly see monks at the ATM getting out some of their hard earned cash and even seen a few in MBK buying expensive mobile phones etc. Once I even bumped into one in the supermarket Careful. He was buying some cleaning products.

[hhw58]

On this issue also see Bhikkhu Pesala's comments:

http://www.nibbana.com/authorso.htm

Cheers, H