The Police Mafia

[thaigene2]

I posted this in another forum on another issue but felt it was worth its own debate. The Question: Does the following reflect Thai society's tolerance or even admiration of positions of authority to extort from others?

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People need to drop this idea that the police in Thailand (or other nearby countries) are here to prevent or solve crimes or protect the public.

You want to think about how much a police captain or other officer makes in Bangkok (and ask why anyone would want to be a cop for 7 or 8,000 baht per month, and why an officer 'needs to pay a higher-up to be promoted - why would anyone do that?)

Now, think about Victory Monument and the cops on each entrance to the roundabout. If you drive a car through this area during the day you can't miss them - they are constantly pulling over motorists for real and perceived minor violations - from changing lanes and crossing a 'solid' line, to not indicating/signalling.

They even ask you if you want a receipt - if you decline you pay a bit less and of course the cash goes into his pocket for his boss (they work in pairs to watch each other - that's why they work in twos I reckon). Now if each of the four teams is taking 200 baht from someone every five minutes that's 9,600 baht per hour. They seem to be there around 10 hours per day, so that works out to around 96,000 Baht per day for the guys running that little scam. Put another way, it's nearly 3 million baht per month.

Now who's the mafia here? How high up does it go? And worse still, does no one really care???

[Seizhin]

I agree that Thailand police are full of corruptions, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.

A Demonstration against a police would means asking for a serious deathwish.

[Crushdepth]

The situation sucks, but if you pay your police force below the poverty line what do you expect? It goes right to the top of course - the poor chumps writing the tickets have to pay people too.

[samran]

the truth would be that these fellas see very little of it, it all goes up, way to the top.

But I think it says less about the police than about human nature. When presented with an easy way out, people usually always take it. This implies you have done something wrong though. My experience with these shakedowns is, if you've done nothing wrong, say so. They'll soon wave you on as you are taking up slowing down their take up rate. It is a game you know, and you can play it too.

[Tony Clifton]

I answer yes to your question but won't throw the majority of the population in the same pot.

One part thrives on fear and the other easily goes into submission.

Look at the drug war, who would have protested while it was going on?

l

[Spee]

No disrespect to the OP, but this thread smacks of western judgmentalism like so many other threads.

There is no police force on earth that exists to prevent crime. Respond to crime victims? Investigate crimes? Enforce laws as they see fit? Sure. But prevent crimes? No way.

Let's take what you call the "Thai police force" and modify it to the "Bangkok police force." I have yet to witness what takes place in Bangkok done out in the rural areas. So I'd accept the claim that this a large city phenomenon. But it is no different than anywhere else in the world. New York and Chicago in the 60's and 70's were no better. Having lived in Romania, I can assure you that the Bucharest police are no different than the Bkk police. Their traffic policing techniques are virtually identical.

All things considered, Thai society is a relatively peaceful and orderly society. It may not fit your vision of a peaceful and orderly society, but that doesn't change the fact. It may not be England or America or Japan, but it ain't Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia or the former East Germany either.

Crime prevention is up to the citizenry. If the police force is rampantly out of control, then it is up to the citizens to initiate change. If there is a local crime problem, then it is up to the local citizens to take charge and fix the problem. You are not a citizen of Thailand. Ergo, there is nothing you can do except deal with it or move on.

Just my own wrong opinion ...

[Bagwan]

Some time ago when a new pooyai was appointed to be Pattaya police chief he was quoted as saying that he intended to clean the city up and eliminate crime. Within days the word on the street was that he had paid 10 million baht to get the job.

I note that the Thai police employ the world's worst signwriters. Emblazoned on some police cars is the legend 'We serve and protect'. I assume that whoever is responsible for this didn't plan the job properly because he didn't leave room for the operative word 'ourselves'.

My experience is that the provincial police are as predatory as those in Bangkok.

[Briggsy]

All things considered, Thai society is a relatively peaceful and orderly society. It may not fit your vision of a peaceful and orderly society, but that doesn't change the fact. It may not be England or America or Japan, but it ain't Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia or the former East Germany either.

This myth is trotted out regularly and many people incorrectly believe this. It should be pointed out that Thailand has a very high murder rate, about 10 times that of the UK.

[LooseCannon]

I posted this a short while ago (Thai Police: A Law Unto Themselves, From "The Economist" magazine)

"The first step in trying to eliminate corruption in the police force should be getting rid of the practice of paying 'tea money' to secure a position. The new recruits & their families have a massive outlay of money that needs to be recouped, & this can certainly not be done on the 'basic' salary of a low level policeman.

Entrance examinations for this years intake of recruits have just recently been held & those lucky enough be selected have had their 'interviews'. It is at these 'interviews' that a large amount of cash is handed over. It is a simple case of no money no job.

Two relatives of my wife have been accepted for this years intake & been to the 'interview' where B250000 for each was paid. This is for the lowest entry level (Year 12/High school graduate). The police also accept recruits with university degrees for entry to higher positions where the 'tea money' payable is higher.

This practice is widespread throughout Thailand & applies to the Government Civil/Public Service, Army etc for any position of consequence.

Another example is the son of a close friend of my wife has just taken up a position in the Army that involves engineering/technical related work & associated training/schooling, this cost B400,000. This costs more than a police position because of the very limited number available & the high prestige value associated with it.

To me these seem very high figures but i don't have any reason to doubt their validity. There's going to an awful lot of backhanders trying to recover these amounts."

I disagree that police corruption is less in the provinces & I can give you a classic example of how a policeman's greed got out of control....

Many years ago I had a chance meeting with a policeman who happened to be the second in charge of the Highway Police for province (my wife's home province which will remain nameless to protect the guilty). Over the years I got to be quite friendly with this bloke, visiting each other, going out to dinner, one of my nephews was going out with his daughter, he bought land off a sister-in-law, lived very close by, & all in all the families were quite close.

This guy was absolutely loaded & living way beyond his means with all the usual trappings of wealth - multiple houses, two mini marts, two petrol stations with attached shops, a small trucking business, a BMW & assorted other cars, travelled overseas etc. & of course a mia noi. A few years ago I had been back in Farangland & returned to Thailand after an absence of about 12 months only to find him gone. Asking my wife's family of his whereabouts, they told me he had been transferred to Bangkok & put into every policemans worst nightmare - the inactive post. It seems that his superiors had become so embarrassed by his level of corruption they felt that a couple of years in an inactive post was a suitable punishment.

Further conversation revealed the nature of his 'crime'. As you or may not know the Highway Police are responsible for setting up the semi-permanent 'roadblocks' on the main highways. These roadblocks are set up for the purpose of 'checking' the trucks passing, but are in reality for 'revenue' raising. The going rate, at this time, was B10 per truck, & with multiple roadblocks & hundreds of trucks passing through daily it generates a surprisingly large amount of income. This is all accepted by the trucking businesses as part of their running costs & the drivers are given cash for this specific purpose. It seems that my friend had taken it upon himself to set up a number of additional 'roadblocks' (I am not sure how many) to generate a little bit of extra income. This ran for a while till the trucking companies got sick of paying the extra baht & complained to the upper hierarchy who then put a stop to it.

Of course this little saga did not stop here. My friend eventually returned to his old position in the provinces & it seemed like he had learnt his lesson. A couple of years passed & then out of the blue he was leaving again - transferred to Bangkok, & back into an inactive post. His crime this time was ripping off the taxman for a very large amount of money, which centred around his two petrol stations & not paying the exise tax.

Current location - inactive post in Bangkok, no criminal charges pending.

I will let you draw your own conclusions as to whether there is any hope for the Thai police force.

[hanibal7]

Accept that the thai population is corrupt,not just the police.most thais will try to rip you off and gain from the farang and from their own.land of smirks for me but i wouldnt live anywhere else.

last time i got stopped,my crime was moving away from the slow lane due to a truck coming in the opposite direction(thai driver) and flashing me to get out the way.the police accuse me over using the middle lane instead of the slow due to no traffic.i started to laugh and used my driving glasses to gesticulate that am i mad as i am sure i just seen a truck driving in the wrong direction.i started to clean the glasses and rub my eyes but with a big grin on my face and told him i was lomlaly(cant spell),which means bancrupt.he laughed and told me i was cheeky and let me go.now this is the bib i love lol lol.my gf said i could have ben shot for that,i said mai pen rai as too be honest i dont give a flying fxxk.sometimes you have to stand up to them but always have a smile on your face.Been here for 5 years and never ever have had problems with thai people because i stand my ground and smile.

[Seizhin]

Or easily said, Money goes above society.

[Ubon9]

We talk about police corruption but when we need something, we offer tea monies. We ask them to be corrupted. Personally i'd like it this way

[Prakanong]

the truth would be that these fellas see very little of it, it all goes up, way to the top.

But I think it says less about the police than about human nature. When presented with an easy way out, people usually always take it. This implies you have done something wrong though. My experience with these shakedowns is, if you've done nothing wrong, say so. They'll soon wave you on as you are taking up slowing down their take up rate. It is a game you know, and you can play it too.

Do not make excuses about human nature - Thailand is a sick society where corruption is accepted - its like and extra tax - one reason why companies do not invest there outside of sales etc - we can debate about where it wil be in 10 or 20 years though - will it still have daughters to sell?

[Prakanong]

All things considered, Thai society is a relatively peaceful and orderly society. It may not fit your vision of a peaceful and orderly society, but that doesn't change the fact. It may not be England or America or Japan, but it ain't Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia or the former East Germany either.

This myth is trotted out regularly and many people incorrectly believe this. It should be pointed out that Thailand has a very high murder rate, about 10 times that of the UK.

Briggsy - I agree with you - this myth is trotted out - tossers -it loses Thai people a better standard of living

[KireB]

No disrespect to the OP, but this thread smacks of western judgmentalism like so many other threads.

All things considered, Thai society is a relatively peaceful and orderly society.

Western judgementalism versus Thai ignorism!

Thailand is one of the most violent societies on this planet, if you may believe the statistics that is.

[slapout]

Do not know of any part of the Thai system which is not corrupt to some degree. In my time in this country I have been able to observe firsthand, payments in a non-legal sense make to the immigration dept, police, highway patrol, land department, thai citizens for vote, schools for student admission, telephone authority, electric authority, inhabitants of a temple or two and probably a few more that I have forgotten. The statistics and other figures given out concering un-employement, inflation rate, price for farmers for product, asset declaration, university degree,government policy, criminal activities of government employees, appointees, electees, orgasmism achievement, student achievement, national I Q, etc are completely suspect at the vary least.

[ilyushin]

Moment please, I recall that US State Police have to meet a quota of at least 150 tickets per month. Similar to these Thai Officers, they have a daily quota they must meet from their superior officer or department. Wanna stay in Bangkok or be transfered? Do your job!

Shake down is not only limited to the LOS. Police have been doing it way before we came along and will continue long after we are gone.

Mafia is a kind of organized crime being active not only in several illegal fields, but also tending to exercise sovereignty functions – normally belonging to public authorities – over a specific territory...

Police are agents or agencies, usually of the executive, empowered to enforce or not enforce the law and to effect public and social order through the legitimatized use of force.

Happy motoring!

[kangeroo]

Idont know how many times i have walked behind the police station in Korat and handed over 200 bht just to get a form returned on the same day .

[MSingh]

the truth would be that these fellas see very little of it, it all goes up, way to the top.

But I think it says less about the police than about human nature. When presented with an easy way out, people usually always take it. This implies you have done something wrong though. My experience with these shakedowns is, if you've done nothing wrong, say so. They'll soon wave you on as you are taking up slowing down their take up rate. It is a game you know, and you can play it too.

Do not make excuses about human nature - Thailand is a sick society where corruption is accepted - its like and extra tax - one reason why companies do not invest there outside of sales etc - we can debate about where it wil be in 10 or 20 years though - will it still have daughters to sell?

Wow, a very " to the point " & harsh post, but bang on the money i think..

[Sakeopete]

All things considered, Thai society is a relatively peaceful and orderly society. It may not fit your vision of a peaceful and orderly society, but that doesn't change the fact. It may not be England or America or Japan, but it ain't Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia or the former East Germany either.

This myth is trotted out regularly and many people incorrectly believe this. It should be pointed out that Thailand has a very high murder rate, about 10 times that of the UK.

You got that right Briggsy anyone who has lived in rural villages knows about the violent crime (rape, assault, murder) that happens. They also know it is seldom reported because the police couldn't care less that is unless you pay them to investigate. If those stats were actually counted the the violent crime and murder rate could be a lot higher than 10 times the UK.

[hgvneil]

On our last trip to visit in-laws we met the local copper who seemed a friendly cheerful chap,took my son for a little spin on his motorbike round the village.(had to shout at son who was sat behind the copper and kept trying to grab his gun from the holster !).

Anyway couple of days later overheard my brother in law talking to the wife and apparently the copper is also the local drug dealer and likes to sell yaba and weed to kids.

[thaigene2]

Wow = some great responses. As I suspected the police corruption is up and down the country. Also as I suspected most of us agree that the problem is riddled through Thai society. To me that's why it's so laughable to point the finger of blame at Thaksin or his silly sidekick Samak. It's ENDEMIC through Thai society, and it's a goofy exercise to try to pretend this is all TRT when it clearly dates back many generations.

THE WORST PART OF THIS CONCLUSION IS THAT THERE IS NO WAY OUT!

Don't you agree? It's exist strategy time - you can't keep pretending people will put up with a patronage society when that means "you're poor, you lose"

Find your parachute!

[madjbs]

Now if each of the four teams is taking 200 baht from someone every five minutes that's 9,600 baht per hour. They seem to be there around 10 hours per day, so that works out to around 96,000 Baht per day for the guys running that little scam. Put another way, it's nearly 3 million baht per month.

3 million a month isn't much to run a district police station is it? Even if you include the pennies the government provide them.

[Tony Clifton]

Wow = some great responses. As I suspected the police corruption is up and down the country. Also as I suspected most of us agree that the problem is riddled through Thai society. To me that's why it's so laughable to point the finger of blame at Thaksin or his silly sidekick Samak. It's ENDEMIC through Thai society, and it's a goofy exercise to try to pretend this is all TRT when it clearly dates back many generations.

THE WORST PART OF THIS CONCLUSION IS THAT THERE IS NO WAY OUT!

Don't you agree? It's exist strategy time - you can't keep pretending people will put up with a patronage society when that means "you're poor, you lose"

Find your parachute!

Even I wouldn`t go as far as blaming TRT alone (Thaksin was a cop ), rather a succession of incompetent and complacent governments doing nothing about police corruption or not even trying to establish an independent body watching them and conducting their own investigations. The latest police reform was instantly rejected and I`m sure seen as an insult to most top brass. They truly feel they have a Buddha given right to commit murder, extort money from honest working citizens, plant drugs and make false accusations and on and on, it would be like taking away grandfathered right from them, that`s how badly it`s ingrained. Then there`s all of the repercussions on society caused by this criminal syndicate in uniform, record number of deaths on the mess that are Thai roads and on and on. What I still can`t figure out is why these shameless criminals are still called the R***l Thai Police. Some will say they`re not all crooked, maybe not but I say they`re all guilty by association.

[kmart]

To try and maintain a level of perspective, it always amazes me that Thailand has attained a (relatively) high high level of development and progress, despite the endemic corruption and associated waste of time; money; human and natural resources squandered...

A fair illustration of the amazing potential of the country if only someone had the political will to tackle the corruption issue squarely and not just pay lip service whilst perpetuating the cycle.

Although the issue of corruption here is well known by the local population, unlike say in a lot of Western countries where the issue never really surfaces due the mass media being totally complicit with the government, and fed a smokescreen daily diet of crap about flaky celebrities and sexual innuendo. Whilst being shafted with taxes and increasing restrictions on personal freedoms. Know where I'd rather be...

[Pepe']

the truth would be that these fellas see very little of it, it all goes up, way to the top.

But I think it says less about the police than about human nature. When presented with an easy way out, people usually always take it. This implies you have done something wrong though. My experience with these shakedowns is, if you've done nothing wrong, say so. They'll soon wave you on as you are taking up slowing down their take up rate. It is a game you know, and you can play it too.

Do not make excuses about human nature - Thailand is a sick society where corruption is accepted - its like and extra tax - one reason why companies do not invest there outside of sales etc - we can debate about where it wil be in 10 or 20 years though - will it still have daughters to sell?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So could your statement be interperted as, "Life is Cheap in Thailand?"

[samran]

the truth would be that these fellas see very little of it, it all goes up, way to the top.

But I think it says less about the police than about human nature. When presented with an easy way out, people usually always take it. This implies you have done something wrong though. My experience with these shakedowns is, if you've done nothing wrong, say so. They'll soon wave you on as you are taking up slowing down their take up rate. It is a game you know, and you can play it too.

Do not make excuses about human nature - Thailand is a sick society where corruption is accepted - its like and extra tax - one reason why companies do not invest there outside of sales etc - we can debate about where it wil be in 10 or 20 years though - will it still have daughters to sell?

That I disagree with corruption is one thing, but I make no excuses for it.

BUT societies let people get away with certain things - it is just a simple statement of fact. Given an inch, and people will take a mile. We've seen multiple threads here about people - farangs from what I assume are 'healthy' societies (if we are going to rate the health of societies) - happily stating that they'll slip a copper 200 baht and be off, or happily acknowldging that they'll hurtle down the highway at 180km/h (see the speed camera thread) endangering other peoples lives.

We see farangs here trotting down the street here in full view of of everyone with their 'lady of the hour' that they have - illegally- bought, and be content to let every man and his dog know about it -even though they wouldn't dare, or they'd be arrested for doing so back home.

None of this is right, but I beleive it is Human nature to take the path of least resistance, getting away with what you can. I've lived here long enough, moved my family here, had a child, dealt with officialdom on more than one occasion, and I've always found that there are ways of getting things done that dont resort to being immoral.

I'm not stupid though, and I understand that Thailand suffers from these problems economically for it, and that things could be better off certain things didn't happen.

[LooseCannon]

We talk about police corruption but when we need something, we offer tea monies. We ask them to be corrupted. Personally i'd like it this way

We use it when it suits us.

Whenever my wife has dealings with any government offices such as the town hall, land office etc. she takes small gifts (not cash) to give to the appropriate people.

These gifts range from things like bags of fresh fruit, cakes & suchlike that gets shared around the office, to more valuable gifts such as a bottle of Scotch, that go to a specific person.

Things that can take multiple visits over weeks can often be resolved within hours.

This approach works well in the provinces where local government offices are small, probably in Bangkok they would want hard cash.

This form of 'petty corruption' is so widespread throughout Thai society that it is probably why the average Thai may comment about large scale corruption but does not get overly worked-up over it. You can't have the little bit's of corruption without getting the 'over the top' Thaksin mega project corruption (& everything in between).

[mark lamai]

IMHO the really serious consequence of the corruption is that people with a legitimate grievance or problem have no recourse to law if someone above them has more power.

e.g. once i was robbed in a bar, then assaulted by a bar employee then the bar owner and the police conspired to return only 5K of the 10K stolen, when they realised my accusation was true.

so, i could not lay assault charges nor attempt to recover the full amount.

what does one do, accept it of course with anger and disgust.

or if you are a vengeful person perhaps you will plot some retaliation.

thus the cycle of lawless action by police and the people becomes the only way to do things.

i have had a motorbike, cameras, computers etc stolen in thai over many years,

you kiss it goodbye coz you know nothing can be done via the law.

been locked in a police cell with the only way out (no phone calls to embassy allowed) being to pay the police an exorbitant amount.

this is where it really stinks, when you find yourself in a situation where you are utterly powerless being under the control of corrupt people with guns and having no way via law to resolve the situation.

sure it seems harmless when you hand over 100 baht to a traffic cop,

but because of that, that same cop can kill someone with impunity.

i like thailand but, mostly because of this stuff, i nowadays have no respect at all for thailand as a society.

[JetsetBkk]

...ask why anyone would want to be a cop for 7 or 8,000 baht per month...

...Two relatives of my wife have been accepted for this years intake & been to the 'interview' where B250000 for each was paid...

250,000 baht for a job that pays 8,000 / month?