Tiger Temple - Kanchanaburi - Update

[wilko]

Wilko ,have you been to see for yourself ? Don't be passing on false accusations .The Tigers i saw looked very well looked after .People should go and make up their own mind .

ARAI-WA????

[wilko]

What amazes me about the apologists and the doubting Thomas’s on this subject is their total lack of any solid criticism whatsoever.

The only argument they have is completely spurious – that of pooh-poohing the level of proof...they have not actually criticised one single point made in the report by CWI or any of the other critics of the place - CWI are not the only people to criticise the place ....

PLEASE – if you are going to take a contrary point of view, GIVE a point of view....what exactly do you NOT believe and WHY......do you not believe the Tigers are being sold on? Do you not believe that this trade is illegally carried out......do you not believe that the animals are treated cruelly? Do you not believe tigers are “disappearing from the place? Do you not believe the building work has not been carried out? Do you not believe that keeping tigers in these conditions is bad for their physical and psychological health?.............What is your definition of cruelty and what authority are you basing this on?

I get the impression that most critics of this report wouldn’t recognise sound reporting under any circumstances and in reality, have either only looked at the pictures, not read the report, not understood the report or, quite simply, can’t read it.... CWI spent 3 years compiling their report and have done a pretty thorough – what precisely do you find flawed about it - -please say – no-one has as yet.........

[TheDon]

Well I have been there once, it looks ok to me, the tigers looked well fed and well looked after, but this was back in 2005. Alot can happen in 3 years I guess. The only think I saw was a monk was doing soft mauy Thai on the tiger, but that is just to toughen it up as they need abit of a wrestle around.

Now if I was doing mauy thai to it then that would be a different story all together.

[wilko]

Well I have been there once, it looks ok to me, the tigers looked well fed and well looked after, but this was back in 2005. Alot can happen in 3 years I guess. The only think I saw was a monk was doing soft mauy Thai on the tiger, but that is just to toughen it up as they need abit of a wrestle around.

Now if I was doing mauy thai to it then that would be a different story all together.

and how do YOU tell if a tiger is OK - please share your knowledge of big cats with us.......

BTW

you obviuosly haven't or can't read thereport.....

so what are your views on the trade in tiger body-parts for medicines? Is it OK forthetemple to be involved in this.........I guess you get more for a healthy tiger than a rotting corpse....

[TheDon]

Well I have been there once, it looks ok to me, the tigers looked well fed and well looked after, but this was back in 2005. Alot can happen in 3 years I guess. The only think I saw was a monk was doing soft mauy Thai on the tiger, but that is just to toughen it up as they need abit of a wrestle around.

Now if I was doing mauy thai to it then that would be a different story all together.

and how do YOU tell if a tiger is OK - please share your knowledge of big cats with us.......

BTW

you obviuosly haven't or can't read thereport.....

so what are your views on the trade in tiger body-parts for medicines? Is it OK forthetemple to be involved in this.........I guess you get more for a healthy tiger than a rotting corpse....

i watched a doco on tigers the otherday and they wrestle and bite eachother when they are growing up.

About the body parts bit. That probably isnt good as I think there endangered, but thats life. Life is not fair. We blow little kids up in Iraq, so im not that worried about some tiger getting his shlong chopped off. There are alot bigger problems on this earth

[dotcom]

All of this in a country where not one vet is willing to put down a sick dog or one who is mortally wounded after being hit by a car.

Don't know about this Tiger Temple but Sri Racha Tiger zoo is there for one reason - to make money. Their Tigers could never be returned to the wild & thus are useless for conservation.

[Nignoy]

Well I have been there once, it looks ok to me, the tigers looked well fed and well looked after, but this was back in 2005. Alot can happen in 3 years I guess. The only think I saw was a monk was doing soft mauy Thai on the tiger, but that is just to toughen it up as they need abit of a wrestle around.

Now if I was doing mauy thai to it then that would be a different story all together.

and how do YOU tell if a tiger is OK - please share your knowledge of big cats with us.......

BTW

you obviuosly haven't or can't read thereport.....

so what are your views on the trade in tiger body-parts for medicines? Is it OK forthetemple to be involved in this.........I guess you get more for a healthy tiger than a rotting corpse....

A healthy male Zoo bred tiger on todays market is worth about 2500dollars, a female about 3500 more if the female is with cub, The last dead male tiger I witnessed being sold in Europe(over 20 years ago) was sold for 12,500 Deutsche Marks, A tiger is in bad nick if you can stick your finger in its ear without getting yourself shredded been there done that have hand raised enough tigers and other felines of all shapes and sizes, The only really hazardous thing that can happen is bumping into arm chair experts, who know everything better than people who have devoted their lives to the care and preservation of endangered Wildlife Nignoy

[jeffer]

Wilco,

• how many times have you visited the tiger temple?
  
• when was your last visit?
  
• did you take any photos or document the abuse you saw taking place?
  
• if you did, can you please post them in this topic.
  

cheers

[Thaifan2]

I dont care much for an animal who would gladly have me for dinner .Its good that the monks can make some money out of them .I believe the Chinese do great work with Tiger body parts in making various medecines ,so its a win win all round

[TheDon]

I wonder what they taste like?

My next trip to Chine I will buy kilo's of the stuff, anything I cant eat I will give to the homeless

[wilko]

I dont care much for an animal who would gladly have me for dinner .Its good that the monks can make some money out of them .I believe the Chinese do great work with Tiger body parts in making various medecines ,so its a win win all round

man eating tigers are actually quite rare.....but you wouldn't know that.

[wilko]

Wilco,

• how many times have you visited the tiger temple?
  
• when was your last visit?
  
• did you take any photos or document the abuse you saw taking place?
  
• if you did, can you please post them in this topic.
  

cheers

[/quote

Do you believe mre rather than the National geographic???

what has any of those questions got to do with the price of fish...it only shows that you haven't read the report or you just don't believe it....and have no idea what you are talking about...or can you please offer an explanation for your ridiculous requests....

[Nignoy]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

[tw25rw]

Don't know about this Tiger Temple but Sri Racha Tiger zoo is there for one reason - to make money. Their Tigers could never be returned to the wild & thus are useless for conservation.

Sri Racha zoo is an obscenity and not just for the tigers.

[Goshawk]

Don't know about this Tiger Temple but Sri Racha Tiger zoo is there for one reason - to make money.

exactly the same case here.. I think Edwin Wiek of the nonprofit rescue group 'Wildlife Friends of Thailand' summed it up perfectly with this..

"The making of pictures for 30 dollars with the tigers is a lucrative circus act, nothing more or less."

Their Tigers could never be returned to the wild & thus are useless for conservation.

ditto..

[Goshawk]

I believe the Chinese do great work with Tiger body parts in making various medecines ,so its a win win all round

Perhaps you should change your username as i'm pretty sure that any true fan of Thailand would view this...

...as quite the opposite of 'great work'.

"Butchered tigers, leopards seized on Thai-Lao border: navy

BANGKOK (AFP) — Six slaughtered tigers and five leopards have been seized along with 275 live pangolins as traffickers tried to smuggle them across the Mekong River into Laos, the Thai navy said Wednesday.

The animals were being loaded off trucks and onto a boat when a navy patrol discovered them late Tuesday, Lieutenant Commander Teeranan Dangpun told AFP.

At least six people escaped into the forest, while others on the boat fled into Laos carrying four sacks believed to contain more animal remains, said Teeranan, who led the operation.

The six Bengal tigers discovered on the riverbank had been sliced in half, while the leopards had had their organs removed, he said.

"This is the second time we have intercepted wildlife being smuggled across the river to Laos. We suspect that the smugglers are all part of the same ring," Teeranan said. In the operation last month, Teeranan said his team arrested seven smugglers and rescued 30 live pangolins.

All trade in Asian pangolins has been illegal since 2000. Their meat is regarded as a delicacy in China and their scales are believed to cure a wide range of ailments. "Information from those smugglers led us to this case. Otherwise, we would never have caught any of them," he said. The remains were sent to the conservation department for analysis to determine where they were taken from, he said. The pangolins probably originated in Malaysia or Indonesia and were being trafficked through Thailand, he said.

According to Teeranan, a wild cat can be sold for 100,000 to 200,000 baht (3,000 to 6,000 dollars), while live pangolins are worth around 2,200 baht (66 dollars) per kilogram.

Each pangolin weighs about four kilograms (nine pounds).

A Thai wildlife activist, said the butchered felines were likely raised in captivity, because catching so many big cats in the wild was difficult. Tiger hunting is illegal worldwide.

Note By Edwin Wiek: "I was by coincidence about 3 kilometers from the place of confiscation when the navy arrested the traffickers. Had the chance to congratulate the Thai military on a job well done, and did talk to the chief for a while. Although they did a great job two boats with more wild animals did escape into Laos territory and there was no one on the Laos side to help out. The arrest came after an anonymous tip-off a few hours earlier and had nothing to do with any ASEAN-WEN investigation as mentioned in a few news reports a few days later. Unfortunately this trade continues as we speak..."

This story broke a few months ago and can be seen in it's original form here in the News section.

[sriracha john]

I dont care much for an animal who would gladly have me for dinner .Its good that the monks can make some money out of them .I believe the Chinese do great work with Tiger body parts in making various medecines ,so its a win win all round

Unabashed trolling, part I

I wonder what they taste like?

My next trip to Chine I will buy kilo's of the stuff, anything I cant eat I will give to the homeless

Unabashed trolling, part II

[wilko]

"If you or anyone else has the results of a survey or any evidence to the contrary from another source please let us know where we can read/see it. A reputable organisation like the NatGeo would not publish or refer to any survey unless it had confidence in its authenticity."

seems a good question....anyone?

[pichai]

I visited the temple with some friends last year and we have some questions among us. The numbers of visitors are big, but why the main temple is only half done, where is all the entrance fees and donation collected gone to.

[Tod Daniels]

Real data concerning the number of tourists is hard to come by. The temple doesn't publish nor is required to divulge that information. There is no doubt after the Discovery Channel / Animal Planet special on the temple that tourist numbers went up dramatically as this has also been corroborated by the foreign volunteers there.

Surprisingly little in the way of actual work has gone on in regards to the "Tigers' Island", or any real improvements in the tigers housing or care. I visited the temple twice recently, once early this year and once again about a month ago. I saw no significant difference in the state of construction other than weeds growing up on dirt piles which were there the previous visit. As cheap as labor is here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais", with Kanchanaburi being listed "officially" as 155 baht PER DAY (Yes that is PER DAY) as of January 2007, there is no reason why there shouldn't be more work done.

To the posters who flame this thread, with their ignorance, and 'we-b-thai' sock puppet mentality, alluding to the illicit trade of tiger parts in China as a good thing, or the taste of tiger meat. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity.

Oh and contrary to anyone's belief; the tigers haven't "embraced buddhism", nor have they forsaken their carnivore ways, they are after all tigers.

[Doza]

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

So why is this allowed to go on? Are all the visitors informed of this? I doubt as many tourists would be flocking there if they knew this and its this sort of information these threads are trying to get out there. And why not inform people...?

I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!

This has no relevance to this thread at all. Let me sumarise:

This is a Thailand web forum

People participating in the subject live in Thailand or travel to Thailand

The subject exists in Thailand

This is about exposing lies perpetuated by the Tiger Temple for monetary gain and the exploitation of endangered animals here at this specific place near Kanchanaburi THAILAND.

So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country,

No, its up to people to do what they want. If they have an interest as an expat in Thailand or tourist to the Tiger Temple they can jolly well focus on it all they want.

If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!!

Who is "we". Do you work there? What will you sort and how and when?

might take us a few years but we will succeed,

Succeed in what. Who is "we"???

[Doza]

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thre...3

[wilko]

Heres someone else for you to slag off....

"am coming out with my full name to make sure that people know who I am and to make sure that they know how much (you decide) credibility to give to my remarks or ideas about this issue. Let me start to say that Dr. West and Somchai Rakchat are not one person, I know Somchai very well, but have no idea who Dr West is. Somchai is working in conservation within Thailand. If he wants to come out again that will be his decision.

I have read the CWI report twice now and can only say that I feel it is a good report with lots of information that is absolutely true. As a matter of fact there is more to it than that is written in the report, however I believe that CWI wanted only to publish what is proven with sufficient evidence. From our own investigation 6 years ago we found similar info and even more disturbing news. We felt that we were not the right people to go ahead at that time and an organization too small to push, I was at that time under lots of pressure for going after the illegal orangutan trade within Thailand which at that time seemed a very urgent case. We succeeded there and repatriated almost 60 orangutans back to Borneo but it took 4 years of a struggle. This TT issue might be just as tough.

Now I want everyone on this thread to understand that the authorities are aware of what is going on at the TT, they are aware of the origin of the tigers, the torture and they know about the ongoing trade. I can guarantee you that NOTHING will happen with the TT unless the media writes about it and the report is widely distributed. Sending in a complaint to the authorities will just not do it alone, send them the info but don't forget that public/media pressure is the best way to go here.

The person that claims to have a report (thesis?) with much more evidence on the matter should publish it immediately on the web so it can be used by all parties to stop the suffering of the tigers and the illegal trade, if it really exists it might be a handy tool. It is only a matter of time before the next tigers are send to Laos to end up in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine), because that is what will happen in the end, once the tigers get older and cannot be handled any longer it is too expensive to keep them going as they bring in no more (photo) money.

I am myself a foreigner in Thailand and feel that this whole "torture circus" is financed by ignorant foreigners who only want to see something weird (it is extremely weird to expect a tiger to be tame i.m.h.o.) and don't use their stupid brains before visiting a place like this. We see it all around Thailand on beaches with gibbons, snakes and even crocs, I am not saying it is o.k. for locals to exploit the animals, but it seems that too many tourists are just too eager to have their picture taken with a gibbon, snake, croc or in this case tiger. It is BIG BIG business and for some enough reason to hang on to it with all means...

Edwin Wiek

WFFT

...Extinction is Irreversible...

Extinction is irreversible "

[wilko]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

[dotcom]

I remember your work with the orangutans. BRAVO Sir & Thank you.

[wilko]

Nignoy - you don't seem to understand.....this is a THAI orientated web site for people who want to visit or are visiting Thailand. So issues such as the Temple are of great significance, especially as so many foreigners who inadvertently/unknowingly support the place.

However it is not a problem that concerns only Thailand.....THailand has signed international agreements regarding the welfare and conservation of animals...this place is in breach of those agreements which makes Thailand look bad, very bad.

It is important then that the world knows about this place and some effective processes are started to sort the situation out.

Viled threats will not work...this is a matter on international concern and will not go away.

[Nignoy]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

[Samuian]

.... my only concern was that maybe the Tigers were drugged to make them more passive. Nor do I see any evidence in these links to show the tigers are systematically abused....

concerned, but as long there is no "evidence"... don't you think that it is against the nature of Tigers in the first place and that this is abuse already?

Samui features some "Wildlife-Show" - Aquarium sort of thing - disgusting!

The Tigers, at least some of them are very distressed, walking very neurotic around in their cages and Yes- some seem to be drugged....

[Nignoy]

Nignoy - you don't seem to understand.....this is a THAI orientated web site for people who want to visit or are visiting Thailand. So issues such as the Temple are of great significance, especially as so many foreigners who inadvertently/unknowingly support the place.

However it is not a problem that concerns only Thailand.....THailand has signed international agreements regarding the welfare and conservation of animals...this place is in breach of those agreements which makes Thailand look bad, very bad.

It is important then that the world knows about this place and some effective processes are started to sort the situation out.

Viled threats will not work...this is a matter on international concern and will not go away.

We do not make veiled threats, we investigate the trade and illegal possesion of Protected species!!where possible we purchase the animals or birds concerned I know this is a thai forum, my history with thailand goes back to 1963 , where I bought baby sea eagles and gibbons from the market that is now called Chatuchak!!, The sea eagles were successfully hacked back on an island off the coast of Rayong in 1964, one of the baby gibbons died the same day but the other 3 were successfully released on a malay owned property near Hat yai.Many Branches of International protection agencies are only Interested in the shock ,Horror stories that tug at the purse strings of viewers and readers, it is up to the people in country, fighting at grassroots level to do what they can!!not a great deal of funding comes down the chain, to many burocrats with their fingers in the pots so we finance our selves we dont hunt publicity or the limelight we do what we believe in!!As always I will continue travelling to thailand 4 times a year doing the best I can to solve whatever wildlife problems I come across,why do you think you are not allowed to photograph or film animals in Chatuchak?? Nignoy

[wilko]

Are the conditions at the tiger temple Ideal, of course not!!!

Are they dealing and trading illegaly in tigers? most Probably,

Are the tigers in a reasonable state of health, Yes

Are the tigers being starved, claws torn out, beaten into submission, NO

The tigers are in no worse a situation or condition as tigers in many zoo,s in the world,the tiger temple has become to popular too soon , so it is now being seen worldwide warts and all!!At least in the tiger temple there is very little hidden from the eyes of an observer, no secret off limit areas where illegal animals are hidden and butchered,as I have witnessed in zoo,s in Europe,I dont agree with the way most things are run at theTiger Temple. but I think that the situation is being blown out of all proportions. I suggest everyone looks a bit nearer home for the way animals are treated!!for example in a 2007 survey on the performance enhancement of Competition Show Horses(Jumper and CrossCountry)71% of horses examined had traces of extensive Barring, Barring for uninisiated is to beat a horse on its front shins usually with a thin metal rod, this makes the shins so sensitive,the horse will do anything to avoid its lower legs coming into contact with anything and so try and jump any obstacle!! So folks the tiger temple has not got such a big support base as big zoo,s or sport associations,So its up to you to folks sort your problems in your own country, If you dont approve of the Abbots Antics, Well Stay Away, we will sort it!! it might take us a few years but we will succeed, where as in other so called First world civilised countries the ABUSE GOES ON Nignoy

sadly a fallacious content and spurious argument

With my spurious Argument I was just trying to make a point that what happens at the Tiger temple as bad and as cruel as it may seem, and I do not condone it, it does not just happen in Thailand.we visit the abbot regularly when we are in thailand and try and discuss his problems and methods, the impression that I get is that the abbot is not the head honcho and that maybe he is just doing what he is told,the question was asked by another member who the We are that I mention so often , We are a group of retired zoological Vets, Retired Zoo Directors and Curators even a couple of Master zoo keepers, Who together try and do our best to help stamp out the abuse and illegal trade in protected Species, which is still Big Business!! and very dangerous for the few that actually clandestinely try to bring the Culprits to justice,as a friend found out a few years ago when he was murdered while investigate animal smuggling in Togo Nignoy

That really sums it up...the standards of zoo-keeping in this country have been lamentable in everyway for decades...this is a web site about Thailand, so saying that others are just as bad is SO weak that it really is totally risible.......you have spent your life doing NOTHING but allowing the wildlife welfare in this country continue in a disgraceful state and then have the temerity to come on this site as an apologist when you are clearly one of the originators of this ghastly situation....you should all be thoroughly ashamed of what you have been instrumental on condoning and allowing to happen........

asking people to stay "well away" after you have failed in your duty a an animal "expert" is quite appalling, and to suggest that because someone has been murdered we should all turn our backs is even worse......what kind of person are you?????

If you are what you say you are should should be well aware of international standards for animal husbandry and the treaties and agreements signed by youyr country....yet you have stood by and let (or encouraged?) this kind of trade to flourish right under your own nose...this din't jusrt happen after you retired...you know who it is and you are in a position to have let the world know yet you have kept it quiet......I'm totally disgusted