City Bus Explodes At NGV Gas Station

[BigSnake]

A warn to us all I guess, LPG/GNG?/NGV cheaper but is it Safer??

[VocalNeal]

One thing that erks me is that people lump NGV and LPG in the same sentence.

A warn to us all I guess, LPG/GNG?/NGV cheaper but is it Safer??

They are vastly different forms of fuel.

Yes NGV is cheaper but as we know it has to be stored at higher pressures and has limited range.

Natural-gas cars have some significant drawbacks. There aren't enough stations selling natural gas to make them practical for cross-country drives. They don't have as much driving range as gasoline-powered cars. And their fuel tanks take up more space in the trunk of the cars.

USA Today Natural-gas powered cars: Who even knows they exist?

LPG on the other hand is stored at lower pressure and gives greater range per unit of stored volume. So in my humble opinion is a better choice for private motor vehicles

Both fuels are used throughout the world but for different reasons.

LPG is a byproduct of oil refining. OK we have to import most of it as we don't have refining capacity but that goes for most fuels. Ok Tuk Tuk drivers get a subsidy but in the UK LPG is 49% the cost of petrol and 44% of diesel and thats with UK high rate of fuel tax. So all the stuff about LPG being heavily subsidized doesn't sound "the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

E10/20/85 is flawed at least here as we don't grow the plant matter to make it we IMPORT molasses. Also it gives at least 30% less mileage per stored/purchased unit or volume but is not sold for 30% less. The cynic in me says it's just a scheme to make money for different people, not a real solution. Is it a coincendence that the most wealthy person/family in Thailand manufactures alcohol and beer? Poor old Talksin only ranked 16th. Ok alcohol is renewable and that makes sense longterm until we start cutting down the rainforest converting rice fields to grown the plant matter. Alcohol makes sense in Brazil as they didn't have oil and they have lots of space to grow sugarcane. Now even cashasa (spelling) is cheaper. Does Thailand have enough space to grow all our own fuel?

But TIT and I love the place. Oh and meelousee, nothing personal but people who complain about Thailand for whatever reason all know where the airport is. I even rode my motocy on the sidewalk/pavement yesterday. Saved me about 2 minutes, minimum ,sat in traffic. Not a huge saving on emmisions but I try and do my bit.

Gee this is great therapy and saved me writing to the BKK post who spout all kinds of drivel about alternative fuels.

[fridgemagnet]

I have a gas ticket - it took 2 related courses of training before I was

allowed to take the gas fitter course.I cannot imagine that here they will

use all imported fittings AS WELL as imported valves, tanks etc.

Even in Ireland, getting the correct fittings was problematic. I would like to look at a conversion

done here (in Chiang Mai).

Once past the pressure regulator the danger is greatly reduced, tho a build up of leaking gas is still

deadly.

[hansnl]

Explosion at an NGV gas station injures a man in Samut Prakarn

SAMUT PRAKARN: -- A public bus was damaged from an explosion when it was refilling NGV gas at a gas station in Samut Prakarn province, injuring a gas station boy on Friday.

The explosion shattered window glasses of nearby vehicles lining up for their turns at the station.

Police said it was lucky that there was no passengers on the bus.

Initial investigation showed that the blast happened after the refilling of gas was nearly finished.

A station staff was about to remove the gas pipe from the vehicle when the explosion happened. The staff suffered from wounds at his legs.

Police said the bus operator has not yet obtained permission from the provincial authorities to operate the bus equipped with NGS gas tanks.

-- The Nation 2008-08-08

The Thai Government is promoting natural gas for use in vehicles.

That may be the wrong way to go.

Natural gas should be piped to homes for cooking, bottled gas in homes are so many Murpy's laws to happen.

Every gas bottle will be connected and uncoupled to and from the the cooking apparatus every time, with the inherent danger.

Besides, most of the time the tank is proudly standing very near to the open fire of the cooker.

The pressure in the ngv/cng tanks is very high, all appendages should be very strong indeed, and even so, things will go wrong.

LPG containers, in cars or bottles are much more safer, because the pressure in the tanks is very much lower

Use piped natural gas foor cooking, and lpg for cars and in bottled form for less populated areas.

Tests in the Netherlands and the UK indicate, that LPG-tanks and systems in passenger cars are safer as petrol tanks.

In the Netherlands the control on bottled gas is going so far that the safety inspectors of the fire service will check all pipes, connections and flexible pipes every year.

Flexible pipes have to be renewed every two years, and found to be over time, are simply cut off and taken away by the inspectors.

The governments in both countries are not very fond of installing ngv in passenger cars, because of the inherent danger lurking in a high pressure tank in small vehicles.

Even installation in buses and trucks is frowned upon, although, because of the strict control on installation and the yearly testing of the complete buses every year, the dangers are brought back to acceptable levels.

Natural gas installations in trucks, there may be some, however, most long distance trucks in Europe make more kilometers as the trucks in Thailand, every available centimeter on the truck is used for freight, so installing ngv would eat away loading space.

Finding a suitable filling station and the time needed to fill up the tanks take too much time.

Loss of time, is loss of money.

There are however, trucks with a mixed diesel/LPG installation AND modified engine.

Tank installations for LPG in The Netherlands and the UK fill up your tank very fast, so LPG is in favour of CNG too.

CNG tanking will always be slower business, because the compression cycle.

Telling stories about a LPG tanker exploding and making this an example of the dangers of LPG in cars is quite stupid, because no car is driving around with 50 cubic meters or more of liquified gas, only tankers are.

Now suppose, that one day a tanker with CNG explodes, hopefully not, but I guess, no I am rather certain, the damage will be very much bigger.

Because CNG is in gaseous form, it is easier to explode as liquified gas, which first need to change into gaseous form to explode properly.

When both are in gas form, there is not much difference in "explodability".

For me, I will never drive a car on CNG, but will happily drive a car with LPG.

In the Netherlands when I was driving a car running on petrol, in came the LPG installation.

Why, it is much cleaner as petrol, indeed cheaper as petrol (even in the non subsidised market price), and if used properly, very much cleaner for the engine too.

Compare the colour of the engine oil after 10,000 km of a car on LPG and a car on petrol.

Edited August 8, 2008 by hansnl

[mikethevigoman]

I've seen in some science articles that Gas and Gasoline won't ignite from just a cigarette. I also have seen in some TV shows they thrown a cigarette into a beaker of Gasoline, it just killed the cigarette.

Just FYI, they can be right but I will not risk it anyway.

Gasoline (petrol, benzine) is flammable. Gasoline vapor, if in a closed space (i.e. a gasoline tank) will explode if ignited. The same applies to natural gas such a propane. I know this for a fact because when I lived in California, a house exploded not more than a quarter mile from where I lived. The blast was strong enough to damage windows in the building I lived in.

Lighting the cigarette will cause an explosion!

[mikethevigoman]

so many people reading this .. nothing better to do

or all retired ?

just wondering

This thread went out as Breaking News via email to anyone who subscribes to Thai Visa. That is why so many people get onto something like this so fast.

To Tiger Beer: I don't think mentioning the safety standards in this country is Thai bashing. This stuff is a reality of life here and if we choose to live here we pretty much have to accept the Thai way of life. It is good information for the tourists who are unaware of what actually goes on here all the time. It will give them a little insight as to the dangers and let them make informed choices regarding destinations and mode of travel.

I agree,we are in thailand and if critisising what happened here is considered thai bashing add me to the list,.it dosent mean im booking a one way ticket out,.buts lets face it safety standards are a joke,

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

Wasn't that Volvo a case of a LPG tank being filled with NGV, which of course has a WAY higher pressure for which the tank obviously wasn't made? I remember reading something about that (might have been a different case, but also involving a Volvo that went up during refueling).

Regards

Thanh

[dotcom]

Natural gas should be piped to homes for cooking, bottled gas in homes are so many Murpy's laws to happen.

For me, I will never drive a car on CNG, but will happily drive a car with LPG.

Point A. Yeah that worked real good in Kobe Japan didn't it?

Point B. I agree with this statement.

Our hosts however are always looking for an angle - a shortcut. So a few get killed? no biggie.

99% sure the buses' tank failed due to high pressure & some fault with the tank itself.

Gas - not enclosed - can not explode.

Gas enclosed - can not explode in the absence of oxygen - no matter how much spark you put to it.

[Taijitu]

Gas should be no more volatile than petrol. Obviously there was a leak from the tank. This would be about poor installation standards, I imagine, not about the general safety of gas. Gas is widely used on many countries as a vehicle fuel with minimal problems as long as maintenance is OK.

Ah, but gas is more volatile than petrol, no it isn't obvious that there was a leak (but there probably was) and there has to be oxygen and a source of ignition.

As the explosion happened as the filling operation was nearly completed, the source of ignition could have been an accumulation of static. The right thing to do would have been to earth (ground) the chassis of the bus and earth the filling system prior to the start of the filling process.........but, I have never seen this happen here, other than in respectable petrochemical companies.

Any sort of closed container holding petrol or gas just does not explode. There has to be a sustained fire impinging on the closed container so as to weaken its structure or by over-pressure caused by heat.

[dubstar]

here we go again. another thailand bashing thread. TIT and what else. lets get them rolling guys. another "what am i doing in thailand?" thread

here here.

[NHJ]

<br />another myth about gas tanks. i don't know what happened with this bus, but car pressurized gas tanks don't just explode. usually they leak so the gas will come out and that all. even if they are of bad quality.<br />

maybe it's misslabelled, the pressure was too strong or the tank was too weak it breaked and all the gas went out at once thus creating a look like explosion.

[tomo22]

Just read what was said in the initial report.

Was it the tank or the refueling equipment?

You cannot make a proper Judgment until a properly investigated.

The police said.

When was the last time you spoke to one police officer here who knows anything about the cause of such explosions.

This is Thailand there could be so many different reasons for this.

Let’s see a proper investigation, and then we can all comment on this article with Knowledge.

And the can try to help stop this happening again.

Reminds me of Tony Blair, and his Thai friends!

Thanks for the thread kept me amused for a good Ten Minutes.

Edited August 8, 2008 by tomo22

[tolsti]

I think we should have a poll... we have had them on virtually everything else!!!

[Khun Ngo]

NGV bus explodes at gas station

Source: Bangkok Post - 08 August 2008

I WATCHED A MAN HAVE HIS HEAD BLOWN OF WHILE FILLING A TANK, A SPARK WAS ALL THAT IT TOOK, A BOMB WAITING TO HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING OR GET LAZY, THAT'S WHY MOST CONDOS AND HOTELS DON'T ALLOW, IT SCARES THE hel_l OUT OF ME WHEN I SEE THE TANKS BOUNCING DOWN THE ROAD NOT SECURED PROPERLY, SHOULD BE HANDLED LIKE A LOADED GUN AND ALL SHOULD BE TRAINED ON THE DO AND DO NOTS

The reason why some condos don't allow LPG cooking gas ist money.

They want you to use electricity to cook as they earn from it.

LPG gas bottles are VERY safe. Don't confuse them with NGV (CNG) NGV tanks hold a MUCH higher pressure, hence the danger.

[A_Traveller]

Wasn't the recent fire at a riverside condo in which the family perished, caused by a gas cylinder?

Regards

[davee58]

I WATCHED A MAN HAVE HIS HEAD BLOWN OF WHILE FILLING A TANK, A SPARK WAS ALL THAT IT TOOK, A BOMB WAITING TO HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING OR GET LAZY, THAT'S WHY MOST CONDOS AND HOTELS DON'T ALLOW, IT SCARES THE hel_l OUT OF ME WHEN I SEE THE TANKS BOUNCING DOWN THE ROAD NOT SECURED PROPERLY, SHOULD BE HANDLED LIKE A LOADED GUN AND ALL SHOULD BE TRAINED ON THE DO AND DO NOTS

Was he OK??

[Sigi]

I've seen in some science articles that Gas and Gasoline won't ignite from just a cigarette. I also have seen in some TV shows they thrown a cigarette into a beaker of Gasoline, it just killed the cigarette.

Just FYI, they can be right but I will not risk it anyway.

Gasoline (petrol, benzine) is flammable. Gasoline vapor, if in a closed space (i.e. a gasoline tank) will explode if ignited. The same applies to natural gas such a propane. I know this for a fact because when I lived in California, a house exploded not more than a quarter mile from where I lived. The blast was strong enough to damage windows in the building I lived in.

Lighting the cigarette will cause an explosion!

Recently I looked for a new small car.

So far I saw a Nissan Tiida Latio and the Toyota Vios. Both can be driven with E 20 Gasohol.

None of the cars were equipped with an ashtray. When I asked the sales girls about the reason they had to make a phone call and then simply answered "No have".

Has the lack of ashtrays in those cars something to do with the danger of this fuel?

[dustydaisy]

here we go again. another thailand bashing thread. TIT and what else. lets get them rolling guys. another "what am i doing in thailand?" thread

That sounds terrible, but such things happen even in the UK . . a plastic pig exploded between Greatford and Uffington and the mark is still on the road where it happened!!! No one was hurt.

[Soutpeel]

NGV bus explodes at gas station

Source: Bangkok Post - 08 August 2008

I WATCHED A MAN HAVE HIS HEAD BLOWN OF WHILE FILLING A TANK, A SPARK WAS ALL THAT IT TOOK, A BOMB WAITING TO HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING OR GET LAZY, THAT'S WHY MOST CONDOS AND HOTELS DON'T ALLOW, IT SCARES THE hel_l OUT OF ME WHEN I SEE THE TANKS BOUNCING DOWN THE ROAD NOT SECURED PROPERLY, SHOULD BE HANDLED LIKE A LOADED GUN AND ALL SHOULD BE TRAINED ON THE DO AND DO NOTS

The reason why some condos don't allow LPG cooking gas ist money.

They want you to use electricity to cook as they earn from it.

LPG gas bottles are VERY safe. Don't confuse them with NGV (CNG) NGV tanks hold a MUCH higher pressure, hence the danger.

The pressure a vessel/tank is at is only part of the problem, this is a very simplistic way of looking at it, you also have to consider the volume of the container, pressure and contents, when trying to decide how "dangerous" something is.....generally the failure will be more catastrophic from a large vessel at "low" pressure than a small vessel at "high" pressure....LPG bottles can be just as dangerous in specific circumstances as NGV,CNG tanks.....you shouldnt generalise by saying LPG bottles are VERY safe...

[jayjayjayjay]

These explosions, death and injuries will perpetuate the myth that life is cheap here.

i dont think its a myth at all

I don't think he was smoking too

and to DustyDaisy... first. turn off the red, second, change the font back to normal, third......... what the hel_l are you talking about! A plastic pig exploded! Ain't this terrorism! Where's GW Bush when you need him? Unforuntately he is holidaying (in China now), but do not dispair, he will have commandos in Greatford and Uffington before you can say "fork the marines"! I still feel sorry for the pig, even if he was plastic!! 555

Edited August 8, 2008 by jayjayjayjay

[Gravelrash]

Hope the poor kid who got blown up is OK, burns are really nasty.

[JetsetBkk]

If someone would produce a map of Bangkok that shows where NGV gas stations are located, I'm sure it would help people in deciding where to live.

Of course, with the current "zoning laws", it would be sod's law that as soon as the ink was dry on any rental/lease agreement a new NGV ststion would be built right next door to your condo.

[monty]

I think there are some serious misconceptions on what happened.

In the case of the bus, and a few weeks ago a truck, a tank holding NGV exploded.

The explosion was of a non combustible type, no fire was involved!

The pressure in those NGV tanks is very high at 3000 PSI (over 200 kg/sq cm), when the tank fails there is a huge expansion of volume when the pressurized gas escapes creation a huge movement of the air and gas, literally ripping vehicles apart and mostly injuring people by flying debris.

Indeed it is the dramatic speed at which the gas disperses which makes it almost impossible to ignite. It literally wold blow out itself much like you blow out a candle with a fast moving air flow.

If this amount of gas would ignite, I can assure you there won't be much left of the fuel station and surroundings.

Very unlike LPG accidents, which are mostly a result of leaking gas ignited! LPG is stored at between 100 and 130 PSI (7 and 9 kg/sq cm), so massive tank failures are unlikely to happen.

Look at the pictures of the Volvo and especially it's surrounding (skip the deceased though if you have a weak stomach), you'll see no burn damage. Most of us have seen burnt out cars and they do look quit a bit different (not as white as the Volvo)...

[george]

Update:

Another NGV tank explodes

SAMUT PRAKAN: -- An NGV tank exploded at a service station yesterday morning, injuring an attendant's legs and damaging a total of eight vehicles.

Police suspect the NGV tank installed on a privately owned bus was substandard.

"The Land Transport Department had not yet issued a permit for this bus to switch to natural gas," Samut Prakan police chief MajGeneral Wittaya Prayongpha said yesterday.

The accident has shaken people using NGVfuelled vehicles and those living near service stations.

"We are looking into this case and will determine the cause of the explosion," Wittaya said. "Anyone found responsible for the accident will face legal action."

Nattachart Charuchinda, executive vice president for NGV at PTT, insisted that there was nothing wrong on the part of PTT service station.

"The problem lies with the NGV tank on that bus. It couldn't cope with the normal pressure from gaspumping system," he said.

The bus belongs to Santimit Transport Company Limited, which is licensed to operate buses on the Pak Nam - Wat Sri Iam - Bang Pakong route.

Yesterday's explosion damaged four buses belonging to the company that were all at the service station for refills. Two taxis, a pickup and a car also sustained damages.

"Just five minutes after my colleague started filling the NGV tank of a bus, it exploded," attendant Sanya Wanjapoh said. His colleague, Lha Maprate, was seriously injured and being treated at Samrong Hospital as of press time.

PTT promises to provide best care to Lha.

According to Deputy Samut Prakan Governor Kamthorn Thavornsathit, a defective NGV tank had caused a similar accident on March 31. "It exploded on a truck, injuring many people and damaging many vehicles," he said.

Dr Atikhom Bangwiwat - a lecturer at the King Mongkut's University of Technology Thon Buri - said no mechanical device was completely safe.

"The best scenario is to minimise damages in cases things go wrong," he said.

The university lecturer expressed deep concern about the lack of tankquality check.

"Each tank should be able to accommodate up to 45,000 times of gas filling for safety reason," he said. Each year, a vehicle owner will fill their tanks no more than 1,000 times.

-- The Nation 2008-08-08

[monty]

FYI, the ignition temperature of both LPG and CNG is much higher then petrol.

You can blow an LPG/air or NGV air mixture over a hot engine part or exhaust, it will not ignite!

Poor petrol over an exhaust manifold and you stand a big chance of having an engine fire.

Ignition points for both diesel and petrol are around 230 degrees C while both LPG and CNG need 450 or more degrees...

[dougieboy]

Explosion at an NGV gas station injures a man in Samut Prakarn

SAMUT PRAKARN: -- A public bus was damaged from an explosion when it was refilling NGV gas at a gas station in Samut Prakarn province, injuring a gas station boy on Friday.

The explosion shattered window glasses of nearby vehicles lining up for their turns at the station.

Police said it was lucky that there was no passengers on the bus.

Initial investigation showed that the blast happened after the refilling of gas was nearly finished.

A station staff was about to remove the gas pipe from the vehicle when the explosion happened. The staff suffered from wounds at his legs.

Police said the bus operator has not yet obtained permission from the provincial authorities to operate the bus equipped with NGS gas tanks.

-- The Nation 2008-08-08

Sounds like a tragic accident, hope the boy recovers fast, must have been terrifying for all who witnessed it.

[dotcom]

Well so far we have 2 different versions. One witness said the tank had been filling for 5 mins. Another says it was nearly full. TIT.

Defective cylinder on the face of it.

Poor little pump jockeys should ask for more money.

[dustydaisy]

These explosions, death and injuries will perpetuate the myth that life is cheap here.

i dont think its a myth at all

I don't think he was smoking too

and to DustyDaisy... first. turn off the red, second, change the font back to normal, third......... what the hel_l are you talking about! A plastic pig exploded! Ain't this terrorism! Where's GW Bush when you need him? Unforuntately he is holidaying (in China now), but do not dispair, he will have commandos in Greatford and Uffington before you can say "fork the marines"! I still feel sorry for the pig, even if he was plastic!! 555

ha ha, sorry - could not resist it, something came over me !!! Did you not know a "plastic pig" is a three wheeler car . . only needs a motor bike licence . . . I know it was'nt funny, but there seem so many negative things said on this site, I thought I would make a little joke

[warmwater7]

Before this turns into another Thai bashing thread & amongst all the put down on safety in Thailand , can I remind you of another Gas explosion (June 2008)that put 30% of ALL Business & Households out of commision & almost bought a State to its' knees , & it was a fluke that a few dozen workers weren't killed.

Western Australia , where there is suspicion that the so-called world class inspections on the pipes have been either not done or glossed over. Amazingly only ONE pipe frm the supplier to supply a whole State one third of the size of the whole USA.

Lack of safety or should I say, unsafe practises abound everywhere , wasn't it Indonesia where the Service Station Operator used a naked light to check the fuel level in a Tanker on the forecourt of the service Station?? he was the only one on fire luckily.

Wont even go into some of the Fuel & Gas tragedies in the USA,Australia,Europe that have happened over the years without even going anywhere near the Fuel Tankers crashed by unsafe driving.

Murphys Law is everywhere , you have just got to be cautious about your own actions wherever you are

as thailand comes up to speed with new technologies, there will be a learning curve.

the safety protocols for compressed gas,are more abstract. the concequences volitile, fatal. it takes conciderably more precautions with more COST in TIME & MONEY. education.

this will be the problem for now.

[willnv]

I've seen in some science articles that Gas and Gasoline won't ignite from just a cigarette. I also have seen in some TV shows they thrown a cigarette into a beaker of Gasoline, it just killed the cigarette.

Just FYI, they can be right but I will not risk it anyway.

Gasoline (petrol, benzine) is flammable. Gasoline vapor, if in a closed space (i.e. a gasoline tank) will explode if ignited. The same applies to natural gas such a propane. I know this for a fact because when I lived in California, a house exploded not more than a quarter mile from where I lived. The blast was strong enough to damage windows in the building I lived in.

Lighting the cigarette will cause an explosion!

Wrong! To create an ignition you need 3 things - Fuel, oxygen, and a spark or something hot enough to set it off. Throwing a lit cigeratte into a barel of gasoline will most likely just put out the ciggeratte because the gasoline is not in a gasseous state mixed with air. However an open container of gasoline on a hot day would have a lot of vapour comming off of it (evaporating) its possible the cigeratte could ignite the vapour which will in turn ignite the container of gasoline. It will only burn though and not explode. There is an ideal mixture of oxygen / fuel for every type of fuel, for an explosion to occur the gasoline would have to be near its ideal mixture with oxygen. BTW I am a welder working in a refinery in Canada. It is possible to weld onto live hydrocarbon lines because there is no air inside the pipe lines.

This doesnt really have anything to do with anything but alot of the pipe fittings we use at work say "made in Thailand"

Edited August 8, 2008 by willnv