Atm Fees Increased By 50%

[brahmburgers]

Just found out ATM fees went from 2% to 3% ....at least for ATM cards with the visa logo - from non-Thai banks.

So, a withdrawal of 20,000 baht has the equivalent of 600 baht taken off of your overseas bank account - and there's no mention on your receipt, and no mention anywhere on any ATM machines. In other words, it's a hidden fee.

[thaihome]

Not hidden since it shows on your bank statement and is included in their fee disclosure (which you probably have not bothered to read). What, you want a Thai bank ATM to tell you what YOUR bank is going to charge for the transaction?

Come on, grow up.

Note, they did indeed used to be hidden in the exchange rate. I'm waiting for my payoff from the class action suit for that.

TH

[brahmburgers]

Fees should be clearly indicated on receipt, regardless of where they stem from.

Techinically it's not my bank that takes the lion share of the fees for ATM transaction, it's Visa Corp.

Many farang think (as I did recently) that ATM money-withdrawal fees are free or nearly free. On some receipts from Thai banks, there's a mention of 'fee' - on others there's not.

Example: Siam Commercial Bank will mention 20 baht fee, though that doesn't include the Visa/farang bank fee.

Because of that, some farang think SCB is unfair, for charging that fee, whereas other Thai banks could well be charging much higher fees - yet not mentioning it on the ATM receipt. Example: Thai Military Bank had an added discrepency of 194 baht for a Bt.10,000 ATM withdrawal. Was that 194 baht a TMB fee? or was it ATM/VISA fee stemming from the user's overseas bank, ....or what? Either way, it was not mentioned on the receipt, and was only deduced from subtracting 2nd receipt from earlier receipt.

The message here is farang, in particular, might be interested in getting informed about added-on fees for accessing their money. Noone likes to lose money unecessarily, nor pay excessive fees, when there may be thriftier ways of tranferring funds. It's particularly galling when fees are hidden or unmentioned.

It's not much different from added-on obligatory service charges at restaurants (particularly in heavily touristed areas). At least on restaurant/hotel bills they're usually mentioned (in small print). Just as the average farang is not going to contest restaurant added-on fees (it looks bad, especially on a first date), so too a farang is not expected to contest hidden fees on an ATM withdrawal.

[thaihome]

Read your dam_n fee disclosure statement from your bank. It list every fee you pay, inlcuding the visa cash advance ones. These fees have nothing to do with Thai ATM.

Please explain how a Thai ATM is going to know how much YOUR bank is going to charge for the withdrawl. All they can tell you what they will charge, and SCB's new 20 baht fee is on the reciept.

Why are trying to turn this into a Farang vs Thai thing? Did you forget your paranoia medication?

TH

[Naam]

These fees have nothing to do with Thai ATM.

of course not, but it doesn't make sense to discuss the colours of a sundown with a blind person

[JimGant]

Please explain how a Thai ATM is going to know how much YOUR bank is going to charge for the withdrawl.

Interesting. On my Bangkok Bank receipt (all banks are probably the same) my new balance at my US bank is shown after I do the ATM transaction. But, a lot more than arriving at a new balance was going on.

If you think about it, the network doing my transaction (Cirrus) did several things almost instantly: verified my card, got a spot conversion rate of dollars to baht, and checked my balance to insure I had enough dollars at this rate to meet the baht amount requested. And, wouldn't they also have to know what fees my bank charges, plus what, if any, surcharge is charged by the dispensing bank? These extra costs would then be added to Cirrus' 1% fee -- all to see that I had the dollars to cover all elements of the transaction.

I suppose they could have just a buffer, say $20, that if the balance goes below the transaction doesn't go through. However, I think they have all the cost elements - it wouldn't be hard or expensive to maintain.

Bangkok Bank doesn't care a wit about all these elements -- they just want Cirrus to verify they won't be stiffed by this transaction. But they do like to pass along one element -- the new balance -- so the customer (most of which can't run to their computers) knows his limitation the next time he hits the ATM machine.

I bet they could pass along the other elements if they asked Cirrus nicely -- and they wanted to waste ink.

[JimGant]

Techinically it's not my bank that takes the lion share of the fees for ATM transaction, it's Visa Corp.

No, it's Visa Corp, at least when you're paying 3%. The Visa network (and Cirrus) still only charge a 1% foreign transaction fee -- unless they just changed, which certainly would have been reported.

[brahmburgers]

Technically it's not my bank that takes the lion share of the fees for ATM transaction, it's Visa Corp.

No, it's Visa Corp, at least when you're paying 3%. The Visa network (and Cirrus) still only charge a 1% foreign transaction fee -- unless they just changed, which certainly would have been reported.

Jim, did you mean to say it's 'not' Visa corp. or are you agreeing with my statement that Visa corp and/or Cirrus takes 3% of each cash withdrawal as a hidden fee? If their fees changed, how would they notify tens of millions of customers? Granted, there could be a tiny statement in legalese burried somewhere in a monthly statement mailing - along with coupons for rental cars, etc. - the type of fine print that nearly no one reads.

It's not to Visa corp or Cirrus' advantage to make a big announcement when they're jacking up their rates by 50% overnight. It's the sort of thing that 99% of users don't know about. Their customers mostly go to an ATM machine, get their money, and are gone. Even if they scrutinize their receipt, they won't see any mention of the added 3% that's taken out of their home accounts.

Let's say there are 100,000 farang in Thailand who each week take out an average of 20,000 baht from ATM machines. That's 2,000,000,000 gross amount. Visa/Cirrua fees are 3% on top of that, or 60 million baht per week, or roughly a quarter billion baht per month, which are fees taken from foreign accounts without clear notice, .....just for farang petty cash withdrawals in one small country.

Edited August 12, 2008 by brahmburgers

[Naam]

Techinically it's not my bank that takes the lion share of the fees for ATM transaction, it's Visa Corp.

No, it's Visa Corp, at least when you're paying 3%. The Visa network (and Cirrus) still only charge a 1% foreign transaction fee -- unless they just changed, which certainly would have been reported.

correct! it is not an "ATM" fee but a "cash advance" fee. if you walk into a bank (or money changer), present your card and passport you still pay that fee and a foreign transaction fee (which differs depending on the card issuer). the advance fee can be avoided (i am doing that since ancient times) by maintaining a credit balance on my credit card account which yields interest.

[JimGant]

Jim, did you mean to say it's 'not' Visa corp. or are you agreeing with my statement that Visa corp and/or Cirrus takes 3% of each cash withdrawal as a hidden fee?

Yeah, sorry, I meant "not."

It's possible that Visa and MC have increased their 1% charge for ATM usage over their networks. But, with their credit cards, they are still 1% (at least for Cirrus, as my yesterday MC statement clearly shows those second line item "1% foreign transaction fee" entries.

Historically, it's been the banks that have jacked up rates over and above Visa and MC's 1% rate. This has mainly been with credit cards, but to a lesser extent, ATMs as well.

If Visa has raised it's foreign transaction fee for ATM transactions to 3%, as you imply, we'll know shortly -- as the travel forums will be going nuts.

But, I still think it's the banks..... IMO.

[JimGant]

the advance fee can be avoided (i am doing that since ancient times) by maintaining a credit balance on my credit card account which yields interest.

Naam, we're talking ATM, not credit cards......

But while we're on it, I'd heard that, yes, maintaining a credit balance on your credit card will prevent the instant interest charges from happening. But that you'd still have to pay the cash advance fee.....

Maybe different banks have different rules.... In any event, sticking a credit card in an ATM machine never has resonated with me -- except maybe in an emergency.

[Pakboong]

We are, according to many, in the beginning stages of a world wide banking crisis. Expect it all to get much worse.

[Gary A]

Citibank has been charging 3 percent for quite some time. Well over a year. Here are two transactions from last year. I no longer use my Citibank ATM card. Wire transfers once or twice a year are much cheaper.

11-20 FOREIGN FEE Nov 20 07:34 6809 $ 8.83

SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BANGKOK

11-20 NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL Nov 20 07:34 6809 $ 294.18

SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BANGKOK

07-12 FOREIGN FEE $ 17.98

SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BANGKOK

07-12 NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL $ 599.40

SIAM COMMERCIAL BANK BANGKOK

[Naam]

the advance fee can be avoided (i am doing that since ancient times) by maintaining a credit balance on my credit card account which yields interest.

Naam, we're talking ATM, not credit cards......

But while we're on it, I'd heard that, yes, maintaining a credit balance on your credit card will prevent the instant interest charges from happening. But that you'd still have to pay the cash advance fee.....

Maybe different banks have different rules.... In any event, sticking a credit card in an ATM machine never has resonated with me -- except maybe in an emergency.

i am using my credit card in ATMs Jim and i do NOT pay any cash advance fee. if using a credit card in an ATM does not "resonate" with you then what card are you using to get some cash pray tell?

[Nowhereman60]

The charge is not from a Thai bank it's from your bank. Almost all ATM and credit card for international purchases or withdrawals have a 2 to 3 percent fee. Some banks don't you need to search and find one, but that doesn't mean tomorrow it won't have a fee. The dam_n banks are making a fortune off of us. And your Thai bank knwo what fee is being charged from your bank. So either accept it or don't use it.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Nowhereman60

[Naam]

The charge is not from a Thai bank it's from your bank. Almost all ATM and credit card for international purchases or withdrawals have a 2 to 3 percent fee. Some banks don't you need to search and find one, but that doesn't mean tomorrow it won't have a fee. The dam_n banks are making a fortune off of us. And your Thai bank knwo what fee is being charged from your bank. So either accept it or don't use it.

incorrect information! on purchases only a foreign currency fee (1-1.5%) is levied.

[jfchandler]

Some U.S. bank credit cards do have ZERO fees on foreign purchases...

When I knew I was going to be moving/living here, I specifically took out a U.S. card with that feature.... It's the only CC I use for purchases in Thailand.

All my other U.S. CCs have 2-3% foreign transaction fees... They sit unused.... until I travel back to the U.S. from time to time.

[Naam]

Some U.S. bank credit cards do have ZERO fees on foreign purchases...

When I knew I was going to be moving/living here, I specifically took out a U.S. card with that feature.... It's the only CC I use for purchases in Thailand.

All my other U.S. CCs have 2-3% foreign transaction fees... They sit unused.... until I travel back to the U.S. from time to time.

all transactions or cash only? one of the U.S. cards i use charges 1% and one of my european cards charges 1.5%. unfortunately none of my U.S. credit cards let's me run a balance in my favour. they like to charge a cash advance fee which amounts to usury interest per annum.

[thaihome]

I don’t agree that the Thai bank knows what fees your bank is going to charge, nor will they get “stuffed” if you have insufficient funds for the withdrawal. You will get the money, the Thai bank gets reimbursed, and you will carry a negative balance and get hit with an insufficient funds penalty, which can be a significant amount. The withdrawal fees are a separate internal charge to your account, done after the withdrawal, which the Thai bank does not see and is not included in the balance check done prior to the withdrawal. Due to a misunderstanding on one of my accounts, I had this happen a couple of years ago.

All this is still immaterial to the OP’s charge that because it is not shown on his Thai ATM receipt it is a hidden charge, which is clearly false.

TH

[Pakboong]

These are the writedown numbers in $billions thus far. If you have a card from one of these banks, I thing you can expect fee increases.

Firm Writedown & Loss Capital Raised

Citigroup 55.1 49.1

Merrill Lynch 51.8 29.9

UBS 44.2 28.3

HSBC 27.4 3.9

Wachovia 22.5 11

Bank of America 21.2 20.7

IKB Deutsche 15.3 12.6

Royal Bank of Scotland 14.9 24.3

Washington Mutual 14.8 12.1

Morgan Stanley 14.4 5.6

JPMorgan Chase 14.3 7.9

Deutsche Bank 10.8 3.2

Credit Suisse 10.5 2.7

Wells Fargo 10 4.1

Barclays 9.1 18.6

Lehman Brothers 8.2 13.9

Credit Agricole 8 8.8

Fortis 7.4 7.2

HBOS 7.1 7.6

Societe Generale 6.8 9.8

Bayerische Landesbank 6.4 -

Canadian Imperial (CIBC) 6.3 2.8

Mizuho Financial Group 5.9 -

ING Groep 5.8 4.8

National City 5.4 8.9

Lloyds TSB 5 4.9

IndyMac 4.9 -

WestLB 4.7 7.5

Dresdner 4.1 -

BNP Paribas 4 -

LB Baden-Wuerttemberg 3.8 -

Goldman Sachs 3.8 0.6

E*Trade 3.6 2.4

Nomura Holdings 3.3 1.1

Natixis 3.3 6.7

Bear Stearns 3.2 -

HSH Nordbank 2.8 1.9

Landesbank Sachsen 2.6 -

UniCredit 2.6 -

Commerzbank 2.4 -

ABN Amro 2.3 -

DZ Bank 2 -

Bank of China 2 -

Fifth Third 1.9 2.6

Rabobank 1.7 -

Bank Hapoalim 1.7 2.4

Mitsubishi UFJ 1.6 1.5

Royal Bank of Canada 1.5 -

Marshall & Ilsley 1.4 -

Alliance & Leicester 1.4 -

U.S. Bancorp 1.3 -

Dexia 1.2 -

Caisse d'Epargne 1.2 -

Keycorp 1.2 1.7

Sovereign Bancorp 1 1.9

Hypo Real Estate 1 -

Gulf International 1 1

Sumitomo Mitsui 0.9 4.9

Sumitomo Trust 0.7 1

DBS Group 0.2 1.1

Other European banks* 7.2 2.3

Other Asian banks* 4.6 7.8

Other U.S. banks* 2.9 1.9

Other Canadian banks* 1.8 -

____ ____

TOTAL** 501.1 352.9

[Nowhereman60]

The charge is not from a Thai bank it's from your bank. Almost all ATM and credit card for international purchases or withdrawals have a 2 to 3 percent fee. Some banks don't you need to search and find one, but that doesn't mean tomorrow it won't have a fee. The dam_n banks are making a fortune off of us. And your Thai bank knwo what fee is being charged from your bank. So either accept it or don't use it.

incorrect information! on purchases only a foreign currency fee (1-1.5%) is levied.

sorry your wrong but my credit card and atm card both charge 3% fee not 1 to 1.5.

[Martian]

Just found out ATM fees went from 2% to 3% ....at least for ATM cards with the visa logo - from non-Thai banks.

So, a withdrawal of 20,000 baht has the equivalent of 600 baht taken off of your overseas bank account - and there's no mention on your receipt, and no mention anywhere on any ATM machines. In other words, it's a hidden fee.

Stop losing money with ATM fees everywhere in the world!

If you are in the USA, sign up for a Charles Schwab High Yield investor checking account and ALL ATM fees (even other banks') are refunded to your account at the end of each month. You will also have to have an investor brokerage account but neither have any minimums (maybe initial 50 dollar funding or something) or fees. Except the investor account has the usual brokerage fees if your going to use it for trading, which I don't. I am not a Schwab employee but have utilized this account for getting money (ATM withdrawals) in Thailand, around the country and in my hometown at no cost for several months now. Its also a good way for your family or significant other in Thailand to receive money. I have a joint account with my Thai wife so we are given 2 cards. One is in Thailand and one is with us. I always get a call from the VISA fraud department when a transaction in Thailand takes place but all I have to say is no problem. Since it is a joint account, I can close the account at anytime if my wife or her family break my rules of use. Keeping a low balance greatly reduces risk since it is a debit/ATM card and not a credit card.

Martian

[Naam]

The charge is not from a Thai bank it's from your bank. Almost all ATM and credit card for international purchases or withdrawals have a 2 to 3 percent fee. Some banks don't you need to search and find one, but that doesn't mean tomorrow it won't have a fee. The dam_n banks are making a fortune off of us. And your Thai bank knwo what fee is being charged from your bank. So either accept it or don't use it.

incorrect information! on purchases only a foreign currency fee (1-1.5%) is levied.

sorry your wrong but my credit card and atm card both charge 3% fee not 1 to 1.5.

for purchases too???

[vagabond48]

It's amazing with the number of threads discussing fee free ATM cards, some people still prefer to pay 1% to 2% beyond the 1% foreign currency exchange fee in addition to possible ATM bank fees. In Cambodia and Vietnam, I paid $2US fee per ATM withdrawal from NZ Bank which was refunded by my bank.

Right now, I only use my USA ATM debit card to withdraw cash to pay for all my expenses.

I do have a CC with a USA credit union. If I needed to use it in the future to make a large purchase, I would only be charged the 1% foreign currency exchange fee which would be offset by a credit rebate of 1.25% that my credit union gives, netting me a .25% gain.

It's probably a good thing that few people here use these fee free cards. I wouldn't want the banks to withdraw this sweet offer.

Of course, I realize that fee free cards may disappear in the future, but for now, I am accepting the small golden eggs laid by the bank goose.

[brahmburgers]

sorry your wrong but my credit card and atm card both charge 3% fee not 1 to 1.5.

glad we're getting somewhere with nowhereman. ....or is it 'now here man' ? cool play on words.

I suggest ATM and/or credit card users try this simple test if they haven't already:

First check their exact balance at the machine. Then make a withdrawal for 1,000 baht (or any round number), and see exactly how much their bank account balance has decreased. I submit that, unless someone has a special account (like the Schwabb, or the credit union set-ups mentioned earlier in this thread), they're probably charged 3% - beyond whatever fee the local ATM's bank charges.

Any additional recommendations for banks with possible fee-free ATM cards (or lower cost), are appreciated.

[JimGant]

if using a credit card in an ATM does not "resonate" with you then what card are you using to get some cash pray tell? huh.gif

Uh, an ATM/Debit card, natch.

unfortunately none of my U.S. credit cards let's me run a balance in my favour. they like to charge a cash advance fee which amounts to usury interest per annum.

That's why I use an ATM/Debit card and not a credit card. Having to pay both a cash advance fee *plus* interest from the second that cash hits my hand is why it doesn't resonate.

[JimGant]

I don’t agree that the Thai bank knows what fees your bank is going to charge, nor will they get “stuffed” if you have insufficient funds for the withdrawal. You will get the money, the Thai bank gets reimbursed, and you will carry a negative balance and get hit with an insufficient funds penalty,

Well, you're probably right about the bank not getting stiffed. The Visa/Plus and Mastercard/Cirrus networks, as agents for the Thai bank, carry the burden. But for sure, these networks factor in their 1% foreign transaction fees before allowing the transaction to go through. And, adding to their data bases any fees charged by the issuing bank (like the extra 1-2% transaction fees now charged by many banks) certainly wouldn't be hard to do. And it would be prudent, considering how many folks cut it real close with their ATM withdrawals. Having so many overdrawns on the books -- if it's easy to avoid with modern data bases -- doesn't make any sense.

But, you said this happened to you due to a 'misunderstanding.' Could you elaborate....? Bouncing an ATM transaction just doesn't sound correct in this day and age.

And, yes, Thai banks probably don't know your issuing bank fees -- but I submit they could if they wanted to, which they don't, since the burden is Visa or MC's.

[thaihome]

...But, you said this happened to you due to a 'misunderstanding.' Could you elaborate....? Bouncing an ATM transaction just doesn't sound correct in this day and age.

And, yes, Thai banks probably don't know your issuing bank fees -- but I submit they could if they wanted to, which they don't, since the burden is Visa or MC's.

One of my accounts is a joint account with my son, he had paid some bills causing the balance to be lower then I expected. When I made a withdrawal the amount was less then the balance, but not enough to cover the fees, so the fees bounced. BofA charged me something like $75 for insufficient funds penalty, far more then the $7 fee (at that time) that bounced. In my case, the balance check did not include even the Cirrus fee, as that was part of the $7 charged at that time.

Considering the thousands of banks worldwide and huge variation in the fees charged by them, programming that in and keeping it current would be a nightmare. I just don’t see that happening.

TH

Edited August 14, 2008 by thaihome

[JimGant]

Considering the thousands of banks worldwide and huge variation in the fees charged by them, programming that in and keeping it current would be a nightmare. I just don’t see that happening.

Maybe you're right. Having to pay $35 to wire money internationally, in what seems like a Western Union era, says these financial giants aren't as real-time as one would want. So, real-time data bases may also be an illusion.

[JimGant]

Any additional recommendations for banks with possible fee-free ATM cards (or lower cost), are appreciated.

Click Herefor a comparison of bank/financial institution ATM fees (scroll to the end)