Registering Baby Born In Thailand

[frangipani]

Hi,

I am an English girl with Thai boyfriend. We are expecting our first baby in Feb and are planing to have the baby in Thailand where we are based full time. I have looked at some forums and its seems our baby will be entitled to both UK and Thai nationalities and passports. I assume he/she will be issued Thai birth certificate, will i then need to also register birth with uk embassy bangkok?

We are not married as yet, would i be entitled to any Thai healthcare if we were?

Appreciate any advise on these questions and related issues.

Thanks

[Boo]

Once you have thai birth certificate, contact British embassy & apply for baby to get a passport, it is not essential to pay the extra for a british bc but if it were me I would, to pre-empt any future issues the child may have when an adult. Dual nationality is not a problem for either Uk or thailand.

I did the opposite for my son born in the UK (got UK bc then applied for thai bc & passport at thai embassy London)

Congratulations

[Mario2008]

You are not married, so it is essential that the father legitimizes the child. Otherwise the child will not have a legal father and probably doesn't aquire Thai nationality. I believe it is sufficient that the father is named at the BC and also is the one who registers the child at the amphur.

[torrenova]

Baby can go on father's house book if he names himself as the father on the birth certificate.

No reason at all in UK law / paperwork to have the birth registered. No need for the paperwork as when you apply for the UK passport you give them the Thai birth certificate translated and notorised by the MFA and do you think they just look at it and chuck it away ? Of course not. It will get scanned onto the same system where they put the UK birth certificates or somewhere similar and then filed. You have the original, you can always get a copy and a birth certificate means nothing anymore in the UK due to forgery etc.

Also, if it were ever required (cannot think of a situation but nevermind), there is no cut off date to register the birth so if your finances are tight (it is about 10k I think) then don't worry about it.

[Mario2008]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

[frangipani]

Thanks alot that eases my mind. My partner will definatly be named on the BC and he will register the birth at the Umper office too. Hopefully wedding not too far away too

Thanks again

[torrenova]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

I do not question your knowledge here but just what purpose does this legitimisation have ? It certainly is not needed for either a Thai or UK passport.

I ask as we have not done anything though the baby is on the house book of her grandmother. What purpose would be served if we went through this (UK father, Thai mother) ?

[Mario2008]

Parenthood can be 3 things:

1. biological (the conciever)

2. social (the person raising the child)

3. legal (the person who is the child father by law)

Often they will be the same person, but it can be 3 different persons.

Since the parents are not married, there is no legal father. Only a mother who would have sole costudy under Thai law.

The ligitimisation would make the Thai boyfriend the legal father and because of the father being Thai, the child would then become a Thai national by way of birth. No legalisation means no Thai parent, means no Thai nationality, means no Thai passport. The child would only have the nationality of the mother.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Mario2008

[torrenova]

No Thai passport ? Our daughter (Thai mother) has a UK and Thai passport. Why would the situation be different in reverse ? We have registered nothing.

[Mario2008]

Read the original posting. "I am an English girl with Thai boyfriend".

The boyfriend is Thai, not the mother and that makes all the difference.

[torrenova]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

Read the original posting. "I am an English girl with Thai boyfriend".

The boyfriend is Thai, not the mother and that makes all the difference.

I understand your points but can I clarify something. Are you saying that whilst an unmarried Thai mother can pass on Thai nationality, an unmarried Thai father (with non Thai mother) cannot unless registered with the amphur ?

So in my case, UK father, Thai mother, unmarried, what woud be gained from this registration, if indeed a non Thai father can actually register the birth with the amphur ?

[Mario2008]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

Read the original posting. "I am an English girl with Thai boyfriend".

The boyfriend is Thai, not the mother and that makes all the difference.

I understand your points but can I clarify something. Are you saying that whilst an unmarried Thai mother can pass on Thai nationality, an unmarried Thai father (with non Thai mother) cannot unless registered with the amphur ?

So in my case, UK father, Thai mother, unmarried, what woud be gained from this registration, if indeed a non Thai father can actually register the birth with the amphur ?

When a baby is born, the mother is known. If the mother is Thai the child will also have Thai nationality. When the parents are married, the law will assume that the husband is the father of the baby and so if the father is Thai and the wife a foreigner the child gets Thai nationailty because of the father.

In the OP's case the mother is a foreigner and not married. The law can not make an assumtion about who the father is. The father can be named on te birth certificate, but that is not enough. The person registering makes a statement about who the father is, but that can be without the person being named father knowing that. That is why the father must claim he is the father. If the father is the one who registerred the birth he makes that claim and no problem. In the OP's case than the father is a Thai national and so is the child.

Understand that UK law will be different from Thai law and I don't know much regarding UK law on this. But it seems you already recognized the child as yours under British law and the child is a British national, because of the mother the child already has Thai nationality.

Living in Thailand if you only registered the child with your embassy it wouldn't hurt to have the child also recognized under Thai law, but your embassy can tell you if that is necesarry.

Hope this clarifies your questions, otherwise just ask.

[think_too_mut]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

We were not married when our daughter was born and have never had any issues, what courts and what other?

My name is in her bc, she is in mother's house papers, has Thai passport.

We married later on to sort out things for settling in Japan and make Australian citizenship and passport easier. Even then, Oz embassy officer said "if you are not officially married, then you need to do this and that...".

[torrenova]

Thanks Mario2008, you have clarified most of the issues. I do have one remaining thing I would like to know.

As a non Thai, are you saying that the Thai legal system does not recognise me as the father of my daughter ? This being despite an obvious history (checkable), my name on the birth certificate, her having a British and Thai passport (presuming my details are held somewhere for the Thai passport as well) etc. ?

In most countries I would find that as being absurd but in Thailand I believe almost every crazy rule or non rule they come up with.

If that is the case, then can you advise what the procedure is (paperwork etc.) to have this registered at the Amphur ? Also, can it be any Amphur or only the one where she was born ?

Many thanks for all your assistance and clarification.

[Mario2008]

You are not the father under Thai law if you are not the one who registered the baby yourself.

Not knowing about about UK law, but it seems you claimed to be the father under UK law, as of the UK passport. If the baby was born in the UK, it wouldn't be a problem. The Thai government would recognize that your claim under UK law. The child was however born in Thailand, I'm not sure if the Thai government would recognize your claim under UK law in that case as it would be logical to have complied with local (Thai) law.

I don't know what Thai law states in this case and how you can recognize the child as yours under Thai law if need be. I know it is possbible, but don't know if you could do it at the amphur or need to go to court. Most countries know 2 ways, ther first is the possibility of you recognizing the child. The second is a paternity suit, by the mother or child. The way you do things could have consequences.

(For example under Dutch law the recognizion works from the moment you recognize the child, where as the paternity suit where the court determines who the father is works from the moment of birth. That could matter in the case of entitlement to an inheritence or to determine the moment the child gets the fathers nationality. The last is already no problem in your case)

You could either ask your embassy or one of the forum sponsers, like Isaan Lawyers.

[think_too_mut]

You are not the father under Thai law if you are not the one who registered the baby yourself.

Not knowing about about UK law, but it seems you claimed to be the father under UK law, as of the UK passport. If the baby was born in the UK, it wouldn't be a problem. The Thai government would recognize that your claim under UK law. The child was however born in Thailand, I'm not sure if the Thai government would recognize your claim under UK law in that case as it would be logical to have complied with local (Thai) law.

I don't know what Thai law states in this case and how you can recognize the child as yours under Thai law if need be. I know it is possbible, but don't know if you could do it at the amphur or need to go to court. Most countries know 2 ways, ther first is the possibility of you recognizing the child. The second is a paternity suit, by the mother or child. The way you do things could have consequences.

(For example under Dutch law the recognizion works from the moment you recognize the child, where as the paternity suit where the court determines who the father is works from the moment of birth. That could matter in the case of entitlement to an inheritence or to determine the moment the child gets the fathers nationality. The last is already no problem in your case)

You could either ask your embassy or one of the forum sponsers, like Isaan Lawyers.

Man, what are you talking about?

90% of Thai couples upcountry have NEVER been married, what happens to all those childen? Banned from schools, health system, "illegitimate"...?

I was not in Thailand when our child was born, what issues am I having without noticing them happening to me?

[richm7]

You are not the father under Thai law if you are not the one who registered the baby yourself.

Not knowing about about UK law, but it seems you claimed to be the father under UK law, as of the UK passport. If the baby was born in the UK, it wouldn't be a problem. The Thai government would recognize that your claim under UK law. The child was however born in Thailand, I'm not sure if the Thai government would recognize your claim under UK law in that case as it would be logical to have complied with local (Thai) law.

I don't know what Thai law states in this case and how you can recognize the child as yours under Thai law if need be. I know it is possbible, but don't know if you could do it at the amphur or need to go to court. Most countries know 2 ways, ther first is the possibility of you recognizing the child. The second is a paternity suit, by the mother or child. The way you do things could have consequences.

(For example under Dutch law the recognizion works from the moment you recognize the child, where as the paternity suit where the court determines who the father is works from the moment of birth. That could matter in the case of entitlement to an inheritence or to determine the moment the child gets the fathers nationality. The last is already no problem in your case)

You could either ask your embassy or one of the forum sponsers, like Isaan Lawyers.

Spot on regarding Thailand. You will BOTH have to sign the BC application form and I bow to the knowledge of Mario regarding legitimization.

As far as the U.K. is concerned, unless things have changed recently, it is much the same. If you are unmarried the father CANNOT register the birth alone, even if he does not want to be on the certificate. The mother CAN register the birth alone BUT cannot name the father on the BC unless he attends the registration (in front of the registrar) with her. Things have recently changed with the British Embassy regarding recognition of a child born outside the U.K. to a foreign mother and a British father who are unmarried (until about two years ago you had to jump through hoops to get the child recognized as a citizen so get a passport, but that has now all changed). As the British mother, however, you were always entitled to a British passport for the child. Quite logical actually.

One quick comment on obtaining a British BC. The posters are correct that you do not need one to get a British Passport, but you do need a translation of the Thai BC (certified by the Thai Consular service at Chaeng Wattana). I believe it IS worthwhile getting a British BC because it will certainly save some hassles in the future. I got the BC and passport at the same time but be prepared for sticker shock - as I recall it cost about 17,000 baht in all.

Finally, the British Citizenship the child has CANNOT be passed on, so if he/she grows up to marry a foreigner (or another luk kreung with the same status) their offspring WILL NOT get British Citizenship (unless, I think, they are born in the U.K., though I have to confess I'm not certain on that qualifier). If they marry a "full blown" Brit (no clever remarks, thank you!) then no problem with the offspring being British.

[Mario2008]

You are not the father under Thai law if you are not the one who registered the baby yourself.

Not knowing about about UK law, but it seems you claimed to be the father under UK law, as of the UK passport. If the baby was born in the UK, it wouldn't be a problem. The Thai government would recognize that your claim under UK law. The child was however born in Thailand, I'm not sure if the Thai government would recognize your claim under UK law in that case as it would be logical to have complied with local (Thai) law.

I don't know what Thai law states in this case and how you can recognize the child as yours under Thai law if need be. I know it is possbible, but don't know if you could do it at the amphur or need to go to court. Most countries know 2 ways, ther first is the possibility of you recognizing the child. The second is a paternity suit, by the mother or child. The way you do things could have consequences.

(For example under Dutch law the recognizion works from the moment you recognize the child, where as the paternity suit where the court determines who the father is works from the moment of birth. That could matter in the case of entitlement to an inheritence or to determine the moment the child gets the fathers nationality. The last is already no problem in your case)

You could either ask your embassy or one of the forum sponsers, like Isaan Lawyers.

Man, what are you talking about?

90% of Thai couples upcountry have NEVER been married, what happens to all those childen? Banned from schools, health system, "illegitimate"...?

I was not in Thailand when our child was born, what issues am I having without noticing them happening to me?

In daily live it would not be a problem, certainly not in Thailand. But it will in legal matters, as the mother will have sole costudy over the child and there the father has no legal family ties with the child.

Illegitimate doesn't mean a child is illegal. It means that the child is born out of wedlock and has no legal father.

[benjamat]

You need to be carefull about documentation, I have known of situations where people have had significant hold ups at immigration points because of lack of clear documentation, linked to baby trafficking. Dont want to worry you but I would get full passports before travel.

[torrenova]

Are we getting confused here since my last post ?

The hospital organised the birth certificate. I cannot remember if I signed something but the birth certificate names me as the father. Are you saying that because we are not married, Thai law does not recognise me as the father, even though I am named on the birth certificate ?

If so, then that is potty ?

You cannot be serious saying we have to go to court to "legitimise" this ?

The UK embassy couldn't give a toss what the Thai government recognise and what they do not.

[Mario2008]

The naming on the birtcertificate is not enough. There was a Dutch national about 6 weeks ago who also had the birthcertificate arranged by the hospital. It didn't count as a legitimisation before Thai law and subsequently his children didn't get Dutch nationality. You have to be the one registering the child in order to legitimise the child. Maybe the UK-government doesn't require this and with British law you would have no problem, but you are living in Thailand. Right now the mother has sole custody over the children under Thai law.

[think_too_mut]

The naming on the birtcertificate is not enough. There was a Dutch national about 6 weeks ago who also had the birthcertificate arranged by the hospital. It didn't count as a legitimisation before Thai law and subsequently his children didn't get Dutch nationality.

Following that logic, Western countries would massivelly revoke their passports to dual natioinals as Thai law does not recognize dual citizenship. Do they give a flying <deleted>?

[Mario2008]

Thai nationality law does recognise dual nationality. But I think you misunderstood my statement. Dutch law recognises the legitimisation under local (Thai) law. But since the father didn't legitimised the child under Thai law, the child was not considered his legaly, and thus didn't receive Thai nationality.

[torrenova]

Please bear with me here Mario as I am getting confused.

Our daughter has a Thai birth certificate which names me as the father. This was used to get her a Thai passport and I had to be present (with her mother) and sign something so my being the father was legal enough for me to sign as her father for her Thai passport. So is that not recognition by the Thai government that I am the father ?

If not, then how come I could / had to sign to get her her passport ?

Lets not get confused about UK nationality as that has absolutely nothing to do with the mother and our daughter has her UK passport already.

You have raised the question about custody and related it to this "legitimisation" process for unmarried fathers. I am concerned over this but am at a loss that if the Thai government will attest to me being the father for passport issues then why would I not be the father in custodial issues ?

I'm sorry if I'm missing the point but it is getting as clear as mud here and no-one else is chipping in to help you out of the quagmire. Thanks.

[Mario2008]

I guess it would be possible to get a passport based on the birthcertificate as their it is stated that you are the father. They don't check if you have legitimised the child. I believe they only check if a parent makes the claim to have sole custody if that is indeed the case.

The certainty you want you can only get from checking your legal status regarding your child at the amphur. I hope I'm wrong, but I do know for a fact that the Dutch embassy consideres a baby not registered by the father himself but by a hospital as not being legitimised under Thai law. I'm interested in the outcome, so hope you will posted here.

[torrenova]

Thanks Mario for all your help. I've spoken to the missus about it and we'll have a talk tomorrow and see what has / can be done. I doubt the discussion between us or even at an amphur will go so deep as to encompass custodial rights but if there is something which can be done, then even without knowing exactly what benefits it gives, it can surely do no harm.

I will report back the outcome when we have been to wherever and done whatever.

Thanks again for contributing to what I think may well be a very useful thread for non Thai fathers.

[DeshawnJamila]

Hi All

Just have a quick question. I hold both British and Thai citizenship. Not married but I believe it's irrelevant in the mother's case of passing on citizenship. Just had my daughter this month, and I'm planning to go home (Germany) soon as possible.

I need to apply for her British Passport soon as. I have read here that the Thai Birth Certificate need to be certified by the Thai Consular service at Chaeng Wattana? I am currently in Pattaya, do I really need to go to this place to have the document translated..is it in Bangkok? Is there anyway I can get it translated at Pattaya? I'm worried about sending a copy which the Embassy wouldn't accept and wasting time.

Thanks!!!!

[torrenova]

My daughter was born in Pattaya and we had her birth certificate translated by some place on Soi Post Office for a couple of hundred baht. They have some official stamp they put on it. Licensed translators I think - check the spelling of names. They will ask you first but they do make mistakes - they did on ours !

After that we took it to some place near Don Muang and got it certified (paid extra for same day service - took a few hours). We then used that to go to the British Embassy and apply for her British passport. No issues at all, very straightforward, just time consuming.

British passport takes 10 days.

[mpdkorat]

You are not the father under Thai law if you are not the one who registered the baby yourself.

Not knowing about about UK law, but it seems you claimed to be the father under UK law, as of the UK passport. If the baby was born in the UK, it wouldn't be a problem. The Thai government would recognize that your claim under UK law. The child was however born in Thailand, I'm not sure if the Thai government would recognize your claim under UK law in that case as it would be logical to have complied with local (Thai) law.

I don't know what Thai law states in this case and how you can recognize the child as yours under Thai law if need be. I know it is possbible, but don't know if you could do it at the amphur or need to go to court. Most countries know 2 ways, ther first is the possibility of you recognizing the child. The second is a paternity suit, by the mother or child. The way you do things could have consequences.

(For example under Dutch law the recognizion works from the moment you recognize the child, where as the paternity suit where the court determines who the father is works from the moment of birth. That could matter in the case of entitlement to an inheritence or to determine the moment the child gets the fathers nationality. The last is already no problem in your case)

You could either ask your embassy or one of the forum sponsers, like Isaan Lawyers.

Spot on regarding Thailand. You will BOTH have to sign the BC application form and I bow to the knowledge of Mario regarding legitimization.

As far as the U.K. is concerned, unless things have changed recently, it is much the same. If you are unmarried the father CANNOT register the birth alone, even if he does not want to be on the certificate. The mother CAN register the birth alone BUT cannot name the father on the BC unless he attends the registration (in front of the registrar) with her. Things have recently changed with the British Embassy regarding recognition of a child born outside the U.K. to a foreign mother and a British father who are unmarried (until about two years ago you had to jump through hoops to get the child recognized as a citizen so get a passport, but that has now all changed). As the British mother, however, you were always entitled to a British passport for the child. Quite logical actually.

One quick comment on obtaining a British BC. The posters are correct that you do not need one to get a British Passport, but you do need a translation of the Thai BC (certified by the Thai Consular service at Chaeng Wattana). I believe it IS worthwhile getting a British BC because it will certainly save some hassles in the future. I got the BC and passport at the same time but be prepared for sticker shock - as I recall it cost about 17,000 baht in all.

Finally, the British Citizenship the child has CANNOT be passed on, so if he/she grows up to marry a foreigner (or another luk kreung with the same status) their offspring WILL NOT get British Citizenship (unless, I think, they are born in the U.K., though I have to confess I'm not certain on that qualifier). If they marry a "full blown" Brit (no clever remarks, thank you!) then no problem with the offspring being British.

I think a child can pass on his citizenship to his child, but he will have to jump through the same hoops as prior to June 2006. His children could also pass on citizenship but would have to jump through even smaller hoops. After that the chain is broke. If your child or grandchild had their children born in the UK they go back to the top of the list. Thats my understanding

[jochen]

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

Being named on the BC is not enough.

I'm mentioned as the father on the BC, but as i read this is not enough, i just went to the amphur here in Hat Yai to register myself as the father of the child. I was told they could not do that, and that I had to find a lawyer, and that the whole procedure would take 2 months.

Anybody got any experiences with this ?