Retirement visa and living as retiree in Thailand

[jacquesparra]

I was really contemplating moving to Thailand for my retirement in 18 months time, but now I'm wondering if its going to be worth it

I have to have 800.000 bht in a bank which dont pay any interest

I can only buy a condo, asuming its a majority of Thais who own it

I will face a 2 teir system of pricing (Thai and Farang)

I have to contend with a Bht that is all over the place with exchange rates

I have to report every 90 days to immigration to prove I'm still capable of staying

I dont mind getting all the paperwork (like a retirement visa)

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

All I wanted to do is live out my time in relative comfort, with my ENGLISH wife, (not a Thai wife or any other import, unless you include Liverpool in that )

As much as I like and enjoy the Thai people, I dont like being laughed and spoken about in a language I know very little of (as I have read in the forums here

Are Farangs actually wanted here in Thailand ? (either as tourists or retirees ?)

Can anyone just give me a 'heads up' on this ?

Not a slagging off or a slating, just helpfull advice, please

IS IT worth it ?

[xylophone]

Just to add my10 bahts worth -- -- a lot of good information here, so won't repeat that, however a couple of things that were commented on, I may be able to assist with.

There was reference to setting up a Thai company in order to buy a property, and although that was easier in the past, it is now my belief that this has gotten harder because authorities now have the right to check on the Thai shareholders/directors to see if indeed they actually own (by way of a monetary input) shares, or if indeed it is a company just designed to buy the property -- -- somethiing to check up on, as I am sure there are others here who know more about this aspect. Nothing wrong with a good condominium/apartment and usually very easy to maintain.

There was also reference to Malaysia being boring, however from what I can ascertain from the original post, and subsequent ones, the OP is not after a raving nightlife. It must be remembered that many westerners come to Thailand for the nightlife and the girls, however this is not the case here.

I have visited the some places up north in the country, and found that Chiang Rai was extremely beautiful, more laid-back, and more friendly, with property prices being about half what they are in the popular tourist places. And the temperature was more suited to someone of European descent (discernible seasons, with some cooler evenings).

I am a New Zealand citizen, and still believe it to be one of the more beautiful places in which to live. Indeed if I could adapt to living in the countryside, then I would seriously contemmplate being back there.

Personally I am not sure about the other more exotic places mentioned on the posts, however surely Spain with its recent property crash will provide some very low-cost accommodation in some very beautiful places, and this has to be worth checking out. I know this is not for many people, however I do like France, especially the south, and village life (except for life the lack of nightlife again) with an acre or two of ground on which to grow vegetables has often been a dream of mine (especially as I do like red wine) and it need not be expensive if one is frugal with ones budget.

The last point which was mentioned in oone of the posts, with regard to the "rich Westerner" having to pay for many things is a fact, and one which annoyed me immensely when I first arrived here. I thought they were just sponging, especially as friends and family will often be invited to dine with you, and also expect you to pay the bill. However it should be seen as part of the cultural structure, inasmuch as if you are considered wealthy, then you do take the role of benefactor to a certain extent, and although you may never be repaid in monetary terms, you will have earned merit, and can/will be repaid in many other ways.

Good luck with your decision, and like many others, I would suggest a six-month sojourn here, travelling around and getting the feel of the place again.

[jacquesparra]

I was really contemplating moving to Thailand for my retirement in 18 months time, but now I'm wondering if its going to be worth it

I have to have 800.000 bht in a bank which dont pay any interest

I can only buy a condo, asuming its a majority of Thais who own it

I will face a 2 teir system of pricing (Thai and Farang)

I have to contend with a Bht that is all over the place with exchange rates

I have to report every 90 days to immigration to prove I'm still capable of staying

I dont mind getting all the paperwork (like a retirement visa)

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

All I wanted to do is live out my time in relative comfort, with my ENGLISH wife, (not a Thai wife or any other import, unless you include Liverpool in that )

As much as I like and enjoy the Thai people, I dont like being laughed and spoken about in a language I know very little of (as I have read in the forums here

Are Farangs actually wanted here in Thailand ? (either as tourists or retirees ?)

Can anyone just give me a 'heads up' on this ?

Not a slagging off or a slating, just helpfull advice, please

IS IT worth it ?

[raylo]

Looks like you're more the kinda Brit who should settle down in Benidorm, with your own soaps, beer, footballshirt and your English wife.

Never been to Benidorm, Hate football AND hate soaps, only have a beer when I fancy it, and dont get drunk any more, I like to stay in control of my senses

I try and stay away from Brits when I'm on holiday (they can be an embarassment) no matter what country I'm holidaying in

1 wife is enough, no matter what nationality she is

When I saw your opening post I thought here we go again and my answer would be: Don't bother we don't need another whinger anywhere. However your later posts identify an intelligent and reasonable person. Not your first one!

I will say this: You are very similar to me with your football, soaps and beer and attitude, plus stay away from countrymen overseas. I have lived in many countries and am retiring in Thailand. My Thai property is near Chiang Rai. I have no immediate next door neighbours. Everyone knows me in the immediate villages and local town. We mostly all tolerate each other. My wife is Thai, she puts up with me. I put up with her. All this equals marriage and the usual neighbourhood tolerance.

I have already had the boundary disputes with the woman who owns ( not lives) next door. She complains about me to everyone and I tell everyone what a bitch she is. Sound familiar??

If you don't like being different don't go anywhere else in the world. You will be stared at and spoken about. Everywhere you are different.

2 prices? Go to a rural village in most countries where the prices aren't displayed. Been there and been ripped off in Western countries.

It comes down to what most have posted in reply: It is all what you make of it. And don't go on about the currency. Look at it from a global perspective and you will see Western currencies have a very volatile float.

[samuibeachcomber]

I wouldn't say you're out of line with your questions....

have only now read this post and thought it was great,reminded me of things i had forgotten about when first arriving here,reading it now is like a refresher course,thanks very much.

[neverdie]

Great Post Jan, Hope the OP takes note.

I have often heard people say "You're dead along time". I don't know about this because I havent been 'deaded' yet, or if I have been I don't remember it. You should 'live' life to its fullest and take opportunities as they arise. Perhaps the OP should come to thailand and live for a while, check it out for yourself, everyone is different. You can come to thailand, rent somewhere to live, stick 800k in the bank & work out if you like it or not. If you do, then make your stay more permanent. If you don't like it, jump on a plane and check somewhere else out.....WHY NOT????

Interestingly Jan points out in her post that there isnt such thing as a perfect paradise!......i bet you could have alot of fun trying to prove her wrong. Alternatively, stay at home, watch tv, visit the same places on your outings and wait to die, afterall isnt that what you worked so hard for??

[themuse1969]

No, mate, I think it not worth it for you. No offense, but I detect an attitude in you similar to yanks (ugly american). If you had really connected and resonated with Thai culture, I expect you would not feel having been laughed at. Your circumstance is neither bad nor good. 'tis not be judged. 'tis just the fact, mate.

All the breast wherever you settle!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I was really contemplating moving to Thailand for my retirement in 18 months time, but now I'm wondering if its going to be worth it

I have to have 800.000 bht in a bank which dont pay any interest

I can only buy a condo, asuming its a majority of Thais who own it

I will face a 2 teir system of pricing (Thai and Farang)

I have to contend with a Bht that is all over the place with exchange rates

I have to report every 90 days to immigration to prove I'm still capable of staying

I dont mind getting all the paperwork (like a retirement visa)

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

All I wanted to do is live out my time in relative comfort, with my ENGLISH wife, (not a Thai wife or any other import, unless you include Liverpool in that )

As much as I like and enjoy the Thai people, I dont like being laughed and spoken about in a language I know very little of (as I have read in the forums here

Are Farangs actually wanted here in Thailand ? (either as tourists or retirees ?)

Can anyone just give me a 'heads up' on this ?

Not a slagging off or a slating, just helpfull advice, please

IS IT worth it ?

[JGregory]

One more note on this thread because I got a PM from someone perplexed over understanding this part of my earlier post today....

When I returned to ask him about why the money was not sent, he was in agony trying to explain, but I just didn't get it. Earlier visit, he had gone out of his way to fill out the necessary forms and everything. He was going the extra mile for me then. So today, I was confused and just wanted to get it resolved, but felt great compassion for this poor guy too. Suddenly the penny dropped.

It was my misunderstanding. He'd filled out all the forms for me, and I was supposed to take them downstairs to the teller 3 days earlier. Nothing had been sent

The reason that young man was in agony was this... he knew exactly what happened after I explained and showed him the forms, but he could not tell me directly I made the mistake. He was standing in front of his peers facing this well-dressed gentleman from America... and if he had simply explained what I did wrong to my face, he would have caused me to lose Face.

Someone of my status can't be told directly they are wrong. Therefore, he was trying very hard to give me hints... because his inability to work this out favorably would cause him to lose Face in front of his peers and superiors. So, my inspiration to apologize to him... shifted all that weight from his shoulders. This relieved the entire situation for both of us. His apologies to me balanced everything out and harmony returned.

Another thing I've noticed... if you want someone close to you, to know your displeased... don't say so directly to that person, but find another person who knows that person to tell them. That avoids the whole "saving face" issue and still communicates the message. Thai people seem to do this all the time within their very large networks of extended family and friends.

Regards,

Jan Gregory

Edited December 7, 2008 by JGregory

[PeaceBlondie]

Lots of good advice here. I had never heard of Benidorm, although I speak Spanish and have been twice to Spain. Anything at 38 degrees from the Equator is way too cold for my blood. Costa Rica is a great idea, though I have never been there. Panama, maybe nearly as good. And Spanish is much much easier to learn.

Having lived in Hua Hin and Chiang Mai, I must admit there is far more to Thailand than those two places. Thai language not required there, though.

Good luck.

[astral]

With the latest immigration rules the 3 million investment is back on the book,

so what you spend on a condo justifies your visa.

Malaysia, like Thailand, keeps moving the investment goal posts so it becomes a lottery.

Prices are comparable to Thailand.

Unless you want to live in a village with no foreign neighbours,

then you may find your self living in an apartment complex looking like "Little Britain",

where the latest episode of the Archers is the highlight of conversation.

Malaysia has lovely beaches, but no facilities, deck chairs and the like.

It also lacks good cheap hotels when you want to "get away".

Horses for courses.

[Jingthing]

With the latest immigration rules the 3 million investment is back on the book,

so what you spend on a condo justifies your visa.

????

Are you certain about this? I recall other translations said this was not a reinstatement, rather a confirmation that GRANDFATHERING for previous investment visa users would be honored. Even if it is restored, there were strict rules for what constitutes a qualified condo (no resales).

[Mario2008]

With the latest immigration rules the 3 million investment is back on the book,

so what you spend on a condo justifies your visa.

????

Are you certain about this? I recall other translations said this was not a reinstatement, rather a confirmation that GRANDFATHERING for previous investment visa users would be honored. Even if it is restored, there were strict rules for what constitutes a qualified condo (no resales).

Agree with Jingthing, it is grandfathered not reintroduced.

What they did introduce was an investment of 10 million baht.

[pepsi666]

I wouldn't say you're out of line with your questions...

This is the best reply and of the most help I have received, others have posted replies that have either been helpful or just slagging me off, I'd like to say a big THANK YOU to you, Jan

I have read every reply, I may not have replied to them all, I know I will be the import (as will my wife) we are both white and know we will be classed and considered farangs

During our visits to Thailand, we have made and met various people out there, both Brit and Thai, some I stay in contact with

I have helped out in the kids place in Pattaya, I always help out the beggers with kids, (I may not give them money, I try and take them to a stall and get em some grub) we befriended 3 little girls while we wer there, fed them every day, got them in a care place before we left (and I'm no kiddy fiddler )

I have no intention of getting a Thai bride (or any other bride) I am happy with the one I have (and thats good after 34 years, marriage)

If I do decide to come to Thailand, I dont just intended to swan around 'lording it' I was hoping to help out in the community, and not contributing to a bar owner (I enjoy a drink, but not getting p***ed)

I maybe retired, but I think I could enjoy my stay out there

I will take the advice others have offered about renting and just staying for 6 months trial (I would have done that anyway, no point in burning bridges)

Thank you for the PM's (good and bad) it's a shame no one read my profile, before slagging me off, I'm not a bad bloke (I think) but I dont like fools and big mouthed people

[chickencurry]

To the OP,

Why on earth would you want to live/retire here in Thailand if you do not wish to learn the language? You will be a miserable person or need a translator 24/7.

Why not move to New Zealand instead - a much better place than Thailand, I believe.

Thailand will not be the right place for you. Tsk tsk...

New Zealand has a retirement visa for foreigners?? Please enlighten

[Jingthing]

Is there policy that allows an applicant to "retire" in New Zealand?

New Zealand does not have a "retirement" policy. If an applicant cannot meet any of the standard policies, then the will not be able to move on a permanent basis to New Zealand. At best, they could come as visitors, and spend 6 out of 12 months in New Zealand, or a maximum of 9 out of 18 months here.

You need to be a real moneybags to qualify for long stay in NZ if not working. Not realistic for most.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Jingthing

[jingjoke]

I wouldn't say you're out of line with your questions.

....One can fight, flow, or flee... in any given environment or situation....

Cheers

Jan Gregory

Excellent Advice Jan! I've been in Thailand for nearly two decades, and your sage advice remains valid. A beautiful country, people, customs, and way of life which you so poignantly portrayed. Thank you for taking the time to compose such a thoughtful treatise which, while of great benefit to a new-comer, is a welcome read to us retirees too.

Regards

[astral]

With the latest immigration rules the 3 million investment is back on the book,

so what you spend on a condo justifies your visa.

????

Are you certain about this? I recall other translations said this was not a reinstatement, rather a confirmation that GRANDFATHERING for previous investment visa users would be honored. Even if it is restored, there were strict rules for what constitutes a qualified condo (no resales).

Agree with Jingthing, it is grandfathered not reintroduced.

What they did introduce was an investment of 10 million baht.

Well caught guys.

My mistake.

I missed 2.5 (2) with the 1st October 2006 caveat.

[luangtom]

I was really contemplating moving to Thailand for my retirement in 18 months time, but now I'm wondering if its going to be worth it

I have to have 800.000 bht in a bank which dont pay any interest

I can only buy a condo, asuming its a majority of Thais who own it

I will face a 2 teir system of pricing (Thai and Farang)

I have to contend with a Bht that is all over the place with exchange rates

I have to report every 90 days to immigration to prove I'm still capable of staying

I dont mind getting all the paperwork (like a retirement visa)

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

All I wanted to do is live out my time in relative comfort, with my ENGLISH wife, (not a Thai wife or any other import, unless you include Liverpool in that )

As much as I like and enjoy the Thai people, I dont like being laughed and spoken about in a language I know very little of (as I have read in the forums here

Are Farangs actually wanted here in Thailand ? (either as tourists or retirees ?)

Can anyone just give me a 'heads up' on this ?

Not a slagging off or a slating, just helpfull advice, please

IS IT worth it ?

I had once thought that I, too, would "retire" to LOS. It is not to be. I will not jeopardize

my funds nor myself with the state of affairs that now exists in Thailand. I am in a bit of

a different circumstance than you are. I AM married to a Thai-national. We have been in

my home country for over thirty-years and thought that we would split our retirement in

both countries. My wife does not wish to return to her homeland to live. We already have

a home built there. We did that some five years ago. We try to return annually to visit and

to prepare matters for our return. All seems for naught. With PAD, UDD, PPP and whatever

alphabet groups there are, we deem it not the right time to gamble with our retirement

funds nor ourselves. Who knows, I might wear the wrong color shirt to the market.......

As far as language goes, you are correct in saying that they will talk about you in their

language, they will make fun of you in their language and they will take your money in

ways not even dreamed of in the West. I speak their language and it upsets them to no

end that once they talk about ripping me off in pricing, lack of service or whatever and

then I respond to them in their language, they are quick to anger. I have encountered

this mostly in the Western venues such as Bangkok, Pattya and the like. I seldom do

in the Isaan, as where we go my wife is related to most of the villagers. Even there, I

do not let down my guard. If you do decide to spend more than visit-time in LOS, be

careful and be aware. Without the language, you will be an easy mark.

[Lite Beer]

I had once thought that I, too, would "retire" to LOS. It is not to be. I will not jeopardize

my funds nor myself with the state of affairs that now exists in Thailand. I am in a bit of

a different circumstance than you are. I AM married to a Thai-national. We have been in

my home country for over thirty-years and thought that we would split our retirement in

both countries. My wife does not wish to return to her homeland to live. We already have

a home built there. We did that some five years ago. We try to return annually to visit and

to prepare matters for our return. All seems for naught. With PAD, UDD, PPP and whatever

alphabet groups there are, we deem it not the right time to gamble with our retirement

funds nor ourselves. Who knows, I might wear the wrong color shirt to the market.......

As far as language goes, you are correct in saying that they will talk about you in their

language, they will make fun of you in their language and they will take your money in

ways not even dreamed of in the West. I speak their language and it upsets them to no

end that once they talk about ripping me off in pricing, lack of service or whatever and

then I respond to them in their language, they are quick to anger. I have encountered

this mostly in the Western venues such as Bangkok, Pattya and the like. I seldom do

in the Isaan, as where we go my wife is related to most of the villagers. Even there, I

do not let down my guard. If you do decide to spend more than visit-time in LOS, be

careful and be aware. Without the language, you will be an easy mark.

If this really is your true honest opinion then I suggest that you stay where you are.

I love living here and I feel very welcome here.

[VegasVic]

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

Based on your post, I say you should consider other more welcoming retirement destinations. Some you can even become a permanent resident over time.

any recommendations ?

Just somewhere thats warm, friendly, currency thats not all over the place, and I dont have to be kept tabs on, just see my time out

Might I suggest Uraguay and Argentina (I would lean towards Uraguay), you would blend in a little better, spanish is much easier to learn than Thai, and if you like great quality reasonably priced wine and beef then you will be in hog heaven

[Jingthing]

The financial requirements for Argentina retirement visa are MUCH LESS than the requirements for settling in Uruguay, so in that sense, Argentina is much more welcoming. It is not a stable country though, economically or politically. Argentina also allows you to rather easily become a permanent resident after some time.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Jingthing

[VegasVic]

I found Panama City to be a bit dicey, but if the OP heads to Boquette then he just might find a niche he likes!

[VegasVic]

The financial requirements for Argentina retirement visa are MUCH LESS than the requirements for settling in Uruguay, so in that sense, Argentina is much more welcoming. It is not a stable country though, economically or politically. Argentina also allows you to rather easily become a permanent resident after some time.

"It is not a stable country" Hence my reco for Uraguay

[Guderian]

The financial requirements for Argentina retirement visa are MUCH LESS than the requirements for settling in Uruguay, so in that sense, Argentina is much more welcoming. It is not a stable country though, economically or politically. Argentina also allows you to rather easily become a permanent resident after some time.

I hear the Argentinian government take an active interest in your pension funds, too, and will look after them for you free of charge. They sound like really nice guys!

[OJAS]

I was really contemplating moving to Thailand for my retirement in 18 months time, but now I'm wondering if its going to be worth it

I have to have 800.000 bht in a bank which dont pay any interest

I can only buy a condo, asuming its a majority of Thais who own it

I will face a 2 teir system of pricing (Thai and Farang)

I have to contend with a Bht that is all over the place with exchange rates

I have to report every 90 days to immigration to prove I'm still capable of staying

I dont mind getting all the paperwork (like a retirement visa)

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

All I wanted to do is live out my time in relative comfort, with my ENGLISH wife, (not a Thai wife or any other import, unless you include Liverpool in that )

As much as I like and enjoy the Thai people, I dont like being laughed and spoken about in a language I know very little of (as I have read in the forums here

Are Farangs actually wanted here in Thailand ? (either as tourists or retirees ?)

Can anyone just give me a 'heads up' on this ?

Not a slagging off or a slating, just helpfull advice, please

IS IT worth it ?

If I were in your situation with no ties – personal or otherwise – to Thailand, I doubt whether Thailand would be a place I would choose to retire to. Conversely, like you, as a fellow Brit, I could rant on for ages and ages about everything I felt to be wrong about the UK. But this particular thread is, of course, not the place for that.

In the event, I am now living in Thailand on retirement because, in common with several other posters in this thread, I have fallen in love with a Thai woman. Sure the financial demands which she and her family place on me make me feel like a walking ATM at times. But, in return, I am looked after and taken care of in a way which would be completely unimaginable in today’s UK society.

As other posters have pointed out, Thais will never accept you 100% as 1 of their own. In other words, once a farang always a farang. However, a possible mitigating factor for us retirees of a certain age is that the older you are the greater the deference and respect shown to you by younger Thais. They would almost certainly not tell you to f*** off (or worse) as their UK counterparts would.

I accept that life in Thailand has its imperfections for us ex-pats. But I suspect that you and your wife may be looking to settle in some idyllic Utopian paradise which, quite frankly, does not exist anywhere in the world. You will almost certainly find that any country you choose to retire to will have some downside or other.

Having said that, in addition to the suggestions which other posters have made, may I throw in Cyprus or Malta for your consideration? As Commonwealth countries both have strong ties to the UK. Furthermore, since both are also members of the EU, there should not be for us Brits any of the bureaucracy associated with Thailand (or, for that matter, any non-EU country). You might, however, need to be on your guard against, in particular, resorts which are overrun by rampaging drunken yobbo Brits in the summer months.

[lazygourmet]

But I think I'm going to end up like a second class citizen

Based on your post, I say you should consider other more welcoming retirement destinations. Some you can even become a permanent resident over time.

any recommendations ?

Just somewhere thats warm, friendly, currency thats not all over the place, and I dont have to be kept tabs on, just see my time out

Might I suggest Uraguay and Argentina (I would lean towards Uraguay), you would blend in a little better, spanish is much easier to learn than Thai, and if you like great quality reasonably priced wine and beef then you will be in hog heaven

Agree for wine & beef!

But look at the properties prices around Punta del Este...

[pepsi666]

well, a few things changed over the past few days

Got told there maybe redundancy in the air, some 250 peple are for the chop at LHR, covers everyone, from security to drivers, not a good thing for Heathrow, but maybe for me, but not the missus, so now I'm not sure whats going to happen, either way

I may have to get another job, I may just sit tight till the missus calls it time and retires, dont really want to traipse round Thailand like some sad old blokes I have seen there

Another plan bites the dust

[cheshiremusicman]

I wouldn't say you're out of line with your questions.

My viewpoint comes from this angle:

Came one year ago for 1 month stay to get a feel for things. Loved the people, the food, the culture. Me? I dove right into a Thai experience, and made some close Thai friends right away.

Went back to the USA and spent 2 months weighing out the pros and cons for moving here, of which there are always gonna be my Friend, wherever you look... a perfect Retirement Paradise does not exist on this earth.

Came back last June. I've learned my way into a lifestyle with much help from local British and US expats who've been around for many years, and from Thai people. After 5 months, I still love the experience of living here... on balance.

And that is the key I'd say for each of us farang. On balance. I like the lower prices(50% less budget than the USA for me) I hate the traffic. I hate walking in peril of being run over everywhere I go... that seems true of any street or soi in the country:). But I love the Thai culture and people, I love the prices. I love the food. I love the climate.

Wherever you live... people are still people with the same desires, same issues, same problems, and there is always a mix of good and bad. One can fight, flow, or flee... in any given environment or situation. It's your choice.

What do you value most... nice climate, low prices, safety, total security, being respected(as you see that respect from your point of view). There are several places to retire with low prices, so look at all of them.

Double pricing system here - For sure, it exists. For the most part, in my experience I pay 10% to 40% more at flea market type shopping. Usually that adds little to my load and I feel like the people who are "over-charging" me use the money to feed their families. Observe who you pay when you pay your money. Thailand has 75% of the population living on the equivalent of 150 BP per month.

Big price items? I ask a close Thai friend to go in and negotiate the pricing while I stay outside. Get it written down. Later on, I return and get that price, or I don't buy. I don't speak Thai... I just Smile big and don't leave until the deal is done. Shoulder shrugging and pointing at the price on paper helps.

That by the way is the "Thai Way" that requires no language skill. Here's what I've found works for me... Smile always, stay 100% cool... no matter what is going on. Never be confrontational. Never raise your voice. Carry yourself with dignity befitting your status.

If you are over 50 with gray hair and decent clothing... you are going to be in the top 10% of status levels in this society on looks alone. Use it correctly. Respect that it is granted to you by strangers. Even though I am farang, the other side of my 'status' carries enormous weight for me... can for you, as long as you act correctly by the norms of this society. Which can be a bit odd in learning. I was trained by a Thai friend to stop giving the wai all the time to those of lower status, instead a small nod with direct eye contact is the better choice befitting my status. And the recipients are much more comfortable with that simple recognition. The Wai is used where appropriate, and I'm still learning about all that.

My feeling is this... Thai society is very rigid. It's their history. Patronage is everywhere. Bureaucracy everywhere in any society is usually a hassle, and it can seem a true nightmare here,,, but it is this way because that "Bureaucracy" provides jobs and status for half the population, in a country where there are not many good jobs.

So it takes 20 steps to get something done here with a bureaucrat, when 2 steps would do back home. But there are 20 Thai families eating from the salaries of those 20 officials necessary for the 20 step process. Call me a silly fool, but I actually feel good knowing this when I deal with the Bureaucrats. Maybe I'm just lucky... but my experience with officials so far has been all good.

I check in with Immigration every 90 days( I am one year O-A nonimmigrant visa). I dress is nice clothes, I get my ticket for the cue, I'm in and out in of immigration in 20 minutes. Checked out the hospital and had two hostesses give me a 20 minute tour and a cup of tea

The entire country seems to me an intricate network of relationships. Face is everything... which is tied to status. There is always a pecking order in any circumstance or situation. Think relationships... that is the Thai way as I've found it. Total strangers start out with a status and are accorded certain rights. I try to figure out where I fit in to any individual situation and go with the flow.

Everyone has a position that carries certain rights and behaviour. Including me, I find. I have rights accorded to me by ages-old tradition, so I respect everyone else's rights and position and let them respect mine. I don't assume. I just understand it as best I can and somehow that's enough. Give respect and you get respect.

Of course, I'm a newbie here too. So maybe I've got it all wrong. Maybe I'm just naive and lucky.

Close Thai friends have explained me to their marvelous system of Bun Khun. This is the Thai way... "I do for you, you do for me"... or maybe you do for my mum, dad, friend, a monk.

Thailand seems to me like the world's biggest "Favor Bank". Everyone wants to help someone... and the favor is expected to be returned. Understand it, participate by their rules... and I think anyone can get into Bun Khun, even Farangs. I found that giving first works best. My gramps used to say(I'm a hick from the backwoods of America).

"Son. don't every forget you got to give, to get." Same-same works here.

This amazing culture seems to me... a living example of Karma is action. (Karma = actions have consequences.) Karma requires no language skills either. All people are the same.

Another odd thing… I find understanding all the variations of "saving Face" is vital. We, in the West, expect to ask direct questions and get direct straightforward answers. Farang get easily frustrated when a Thai person tells us Yes, when they really mean No.

Why is this? Why won't they just say "No, I can't". It's because they would make You lose Face if they tell you No. And in the process they would lose Face. You lose valuable status if you don't follow that rule. It's not "fair" but Thai people naturally expect you to know this and not ask them tough questions they can't answer. This is a mono-culture with deep roots. Ask the wrong thing and and you lose Face because you have made the other person lose face in front of his peers. Not so odd when you view it that way.

So what's a poor farang to do. Don't ask direct questions, ask for help. This takes longer and often involves bringing in more people for even more conversation, but that is the way it is. Have you every experienced a group of Thais trying to sort out where to go for a Sunday outing. Thirty people will be dancing around for hours making suggestions on where to go, and yet no one is making a decision. My hunch is that if the outing turns out wrongly, some one might lose face.

I often find myself in the uncomfortable position with Thai friends asking me what we should all do. Everyone seems relieved if I finally make a decision. Not sure exactly what's going on here, but it's consistently the same. Of course I always pay for the outing if I am the senior status. That's usually the case, but it's all Bun Khun. I get tremendous favors returned by first extending some generosity. And I never forget those favors extended to me by a Thai person earning 6k Baht per month have a much dearer price for him or her, than the 1000 Bhat I spent for everyone on the beach outing. As I'm given to understand it, I should express 'naam jai' befitting my status. You have be in control, or you'll find yourself with an empty bank account, but it all seems to work out if you get into the spirit of it.

When first arriving in a short-term rental apartment, I got my broad-band wireless internet repaired and working in record time, because I asked the head person politely for help.

I did not ask her for a repair. I did not tell anyone what needed to be repaired or how to do it(even though I am a computer professional and knew exactly what was wrong) I just asked for her help. I also introduced the idea that Manoon, the building's repairman had some good ideas on this. With more polite conversation and smiling… I explained my needs, complimenting Khun Pom on her excellent management and her wise choices in hiring the staff, especially Manoon… I even apologized for bringing her this problem today… all smiles.

Within one day, Manoon and 2 repairmen arrived with new equipment to cure my problem. Later on, I took a nice bakery cake into the staff room and told everyone that Khun Pom(the boss) was the best building manager in all of Thailand. Manoon was also a talented computer man. And handed everyone my fancy business cards from the USA.

I recommend gifts as a gesture of appreciation over tipping someone with money. It truly is the thought that counts most here. My hunch… you might also be giving a tremendous boost to someone's status by making the display of appreciation with sincere compliments and a thoughtful gift. Perhaps… your higher status can bestow some status. Not sure.

Old hands here in the Magic Kingdom are likely smiling about now at my ramblings, if any of you old hands are reading this. I don't suppose for a minute that other farang retirees would want to do this sort of thing as I do, yet for me I enjoy the learning and participation in this culture. Very different, yet very much the same.

By the by, I find that apologizing is a magic balm in this society, Thais do it all the time yet we are not so aware of that. I actually start some conversations with a sincere apology for bothering the person with my problem. Seems strange, but my hunch is that this the correct way to invite the element of Bun Khun into the Thai-Farang conversation. And how often am I really the issue because of my own ignorance of the language or the way things work… a heck of a lot. So saying I'm sorry about not knowing, is the literal truth.

On arriving I had one significant learning experience worth telling about. Firstly, I am not rich. I have no big official position/status here or in the USA. I'm just a hard-working guy who lived an ordinary life. What happened on arriving last June was this… I was trying to send a payment through my newly opened Thai bank account in BKK to a business in Jomtien. I thought the young man at the Bangkok Bank I spoke with, got it done for me, only to find out 3 days later the payment had not arrived.

When I returned to ask him about why the money was not sent, he was in agony trying to explain, but I just didn't get it. Earlier visit, he had gone out of his way to fill out the necessary forms and everything. He was going the extra mile for me then. So today, I was confused and just wanted to get it resolved, but felt great compassion for this poor guy too. Suddenly the penny dropped.

It was my misunderstanding. He'd filled out all the forms for me, and I was supposed to take them downstairs to the teller 3 days earlier. Nothing had been sent because I failed to understand. So I apologized. I gave him a formal wai and apologized to this young man in the large main accounts area at Bangkok Bank. This caused something you had to see to believe. Every Thai person within earshot stopped dead in their tracks and observed silently. The young man was wai-ing me back vigorously and apologizing to me. (that's the Face thing) So, I stepped it up and wai-ed back even more vigorously.

We must have look a real sight, nodding all over the place trying to get out the best apology. I was sincere in my effort. And I have no idea what all the Thai people really thought about all this, but I when I finally made my leave, I can say that everyone was still taken aback. And when I went downstairs to complete the transaction in the big bank lobby, everyone seemed to be expecting me. Two managers came over to thank me for my custom and opened the doors on leaving. I returned a few days later on another matter and felt like I was a visiting Sultan or something. I don't pretend to understand it all, but it makes for a marvelous story about Thailand to tell the folks back home.

I can certainly tell you that my life here is interesting. I also get some amazing invitations from local Thai people for events where I'm the only farang. Life is pretty smooth for me here. But maybe I'm just lucky.

Wishing you and your wife all the best wherever you settle for retirement. Malaysia, by the way, is reported to be an excellent choice for retirement. About 50k BP in the bank and easy immigration.

Cheers

Jan Gregory

Dear Jan,

Thanks for a wonderful 'piece' on living in Thailand, which to me sums up what we all should be doing - enjoying what is here, with all its problems and pleasures. There is NO WHERE IN THE WORLD THAT IS PERFECT and that is a fact!

I have lived in Thailand now for almost two years with my English wife and can honesly say that I throughly enjoy it here, albeit with it's attendant frustrations as you outlined in your most erudite summary.

Your insight into the 'Thai Face / culture / etc' was very enlightening and I beleive is a 'must read' for anybody contemplating moving to live over here.

I came from the UK, having worked and played there all my life with all its 'Nanny state, political correctness BS, thugish behaviour etc , crap weather' and have no desire to see, feel, or witness it again.

I am now 65+ and the weather out here has given me a new lease of life, seemingly releasing me from a world of rheumatic pain that I would not have wished on my worst enemy. We are lucky to have a beautiful villa, pool, garden that I could never have contemplated owning in the UK and now enjoy playing golf again, always walking the courses, much to my younger golfing friends amusement. Working in my garden gives me tremendous pleasure and exercise; trying to come to terms with a whole new world of plants etc.

I live in Hua-Hin and we have many places like Makro, Tesco-Lotus etc that sell at one price only, so no 'dual pricing' here, but whenever I can I like to support my local Thai shops over the big supermarkets and find that the few words of Thai that I manage to get correct stand me in good stead with the local shopkeepers, who always give me and my wife and great welcome.

My wife and I always try to treat people with respect and as you say it seems to be returned in one way or the other and we have always had a philosophy of trying to treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves.

We wish you a long and happy life in Thailand, or wherever you end up living. With your attitude on life I can't see you having much of a problem. Live long and be happy.

[rubik101]

As a farang about to move permanently to Thailand, I am greatly heartened by J Gregory and Cheshire man's posts. Very interesting posts.

I have a Thai wife so the choice of destination for retirement was made many years ago.

We have a nice house, a small swimming pool and a lovely garden which keeps me occupied for an hour or so every day. I am about to pick up my golf clubs and resume that as a pastime. We don't have a lot of money but manage on a budget of 35.000 a month, something we could never do in UK or the EU. I paid that much on the rent of my last apartment every month!

The few Thai friends I have are all very respectful and welcoming and if they laugh at me, I simply laugh with them, much to their further amusement.

I will begin school in March and attempt to learn enough to join in simple conversations. We take trips around the country when we are here and have already found paradise but I won't tell you where it is for fear of spoiling it! We intend to go there as often as we can afford, which at the prices we paid, will be several times a year! We might even buy some land there and build if we can raise some more money.

I defer to her who is in charge of all things in everything we do and contribute just enough to her family to do such things as repair the roof and pay for a new water pump. I have paid for meals for 10 people and still only spent 1100 baht! In return I am constantly bombarded with street food whenever anyone visits our home. I enjoy eating all these delicacies but have to watch my waistline!

All in all, I have made the right decision and can't think of another country that provides all that I have here; the wife, the home, the people, the beautiful remote spot we have found and of course, the price.

[davyboy]

Hi Rubik,

My Thai wife and I moved here 12years ago from the UK, and I made one condition about the family, and that was that I would take care of her daughter and her mother ( father passed on) and that is all, and it has worked out fine, not that it suited the (hangers on) family, but I didn't care and have never regretted our move, I love the place.

Good luck to you and yours when you move out here.