Our Builder/us Accused Of Poisoning Pond Fish With Paint/thinner Dumping Across Road

[gdhm]

Hi,

We have a problem at our new home and unsubstantiated accusations are being sent in our direction.

We live in Khon Kaen City.

Fact:

1) people on other side of our small soi have land much lower than our side of the road. During the rainy season the tiny pond they have fills up and turn into a large natural lake (physically sectioned).

2) they raise fish during this time

3) Since mid December they say some fish (not all) in the lake section nearest the road directly opposite our new house have started dying. Only adult fish are dying not the young or fry. (Their house is adjacent to the pond 2am clock position from our house).

4) They originally told our builder he could store rubble etc along their side of the road long ago

5) They are accusing our builder of draining paint thinners and paint on their land and it have drained into their pond and contaminated it Other pond separated sections further away the fish are OK they say . This is a big pond even so. They have not said they have actually seen him or his worker do this.

6) Admittedly, there is a small patch of cement stains up to a metre inside their boundary, a TINY splash signs of emulsion paint BUT NO sign of thinner or gloss paint or anything else. between the cement patch area and the water (sloping down hill through some 3 to 4 metres undergrowth of overgrown weeds, plants etc. There are no signs of any cement or paint on the leaves ground between the cement patch and the pond. The pond owners have never voiced any concern in 10 months. Our soi has a 1 metre strect either side of the road itself for a future council drainage system

6) There is no smell of thinners or anything seemingly toxic in the area. Not surprised as the Builder said he would not dream of draining such items on or their land or at the edge and we have never seen any suggestion of that and my wife spent two months every day for hours at the building site before we moved in 2 months ago (painting still onging due to erroneous paint mix at factory)

7) We were told yesterday by the pond owner's wife (they live next to it across the road) that her husband is furious that our builder has poisoned their fish with thinners and paint and that they had a water test done (day before yesterday) which confirmed those substances.

I asked my wife to ask to see the findings report and details of the tester qualifications for such testing and that if blame was proved we would not deny any of our legal responsibilities. No report has come instead we have been asked why we do not believe them.

Good reason. Hearsay and a stranger testing water and being able to identify thinner and paint within a day - VERY IMPRESSIVE LAB testing that. Yet no report was offered to us or can be now given to us.

8) we found out another neighbour bordering their pond treated her area for termites. She was accused as well and said the same as us if there is proof.

9) I said to my wife how come she is accused when they say they have proof it is thinner and paint. Whole thing stinks to me.

10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations.

11) They tell us to today they will have (they say another test monday) and we can be there as I do not believe the first test. Too true I do not think it ever happenned. I said to my wife why bother being there. I cannot speak Thai, its their tester, for all I know he may be offered a little "tea money " for his testing results.

I would expect a test to be a week or so (a certainly days to verifiy).

There are other problems with this whole thing for me.

1) There has been no rain in 2 months to wash thinners in contaminated soils towards the pond.

2) if poisoning how come most fish did not die immediately. Fish are very sensitive to poisoning. With poisoning, baby fish and young fish would usually be expected to die first if not all at the same time. But it is the other way round ther baby and young fish are all OK so far hat would suggest to me lack of oxygen as their pond receeds in the dry spell.

3) They say our builder has been building for 10 months (true) so contamination could be over long period. This may seem possible but is illogical when one thinks about it.

IF thinners were drained on their land months ago (which they were not painting comes towards the end). Then the monsoon rains would have washed chemicals in to their pond months ago and before end Oct. Yet no fish that they bought and put in the pond died then and none until mid December when there has been no rain for weeks and weeks

4) Today we were told the man who did the first test did not write a report has gone to another city and cannot be contacted. I do not like this type of rubbish.

4) I have not heard they intend to test the soil around the pond or between where there are cement stains and the waterside which I consider is essential to try to prove a connection with our builder..

5) we are on the high side of our small soi . This pond owner can claim we are responsible every time their fish die. What happens if others on our side use pesticides,herbicides or paints and thinners over the years. It is obvious over months /years it will perculate in one direction towards the pond.

6) Say there was thinner that does not mean it was ours without soil testing. Anybody could chuck stuff on their land at night its unfenced and dark. They have not suggested finding any smell or traces of thinner or thinner bottles or paint pots on their land.

7) Today, for some reason they have decided the Termrite treatment lady is off the hook? Probably Farang big house owner easier to intimidate and get to pay up for a peaceful solution.

8) Land pollution is serious AND if polluted what about next year and the year after. No way will we ever think of accepting responsibility for something we know our builder has not done as it will suggest guilt.

9) The builder has not used barely any thinner. The walls inside and outside are acrylic emulsion (water based) there are 3 varnished doors and 8 white painted. The stair case was not started to be varnished until after the fish started dying (we have only been told about all this yesterday 26th Dec).

10) what we are being accused of is pouring enough thinners and paint to permeate the soil and be washed into the pond during the cool dry season where we have only seen 1 or 2 days of short light short rain in 2 months.

Everything suggests this is a disappointed fish raiser who is losing some fish he has invested in, looking for a soft target to blame and claim compensation from. coz we are building and close. How easy to suggest paint and thinner are a cause. However my logical thought and fact so far suggest its rubbish but of course TIT.

My concern is how one defends from Thai accusations such as these when they know the system and how to bride and influential people.

My wife is worried as the owner's brother is high in the military and knows people as his wife is involved with the council. I don't know why that should worry her when we are totally innocent, obviously she feels not all Thais take resistance to false accusations without 100% proof lightly.

They have demanded our builder and his family meet with them and the Village Head man.

My logical western instinct is to want to see an official expert written report and his/her credentials and proof of testing done. Soil sample tests in area they feel thinners were dumped and the soil between there and the waterside. Tests on a fish that died too.

Then because the tester is not necessarily neutral but chosen by the plaintiff to get our own independent tests done.

I understand watershed problems, but this could be perenial if anybody does pesticide control our higher side of the road we will get the blame as being nearest. What happens if the council or neighbours in their annual clean up use weed killers on the sides of the road - any rain would definitely take that their direction

OH I forgot the Pond owner early December installed a large iron grill gate at their house entrance and welded and spray painted it on site. The workers wore mask (even we could smell it going past) that gate is twice as close to their pond as our traces of cement mix. They do not deny they did spray paint BUT of course are certain too little and did not contaminate their pond - just as sure as they are we have polluted their pond. (they would feel that wouldn't they.

Personally I doubt they are the cause and I am 99% sure our builder is not.

Anybody with any views or knowledge of fish, or way or how to deal with this amicably and satisfactorily. We are not seeking a war or ill feeling with our new neighbours but friendship. but we are not seeking to capitulate for something we are not guilty of nor our builder. Until now we have always got on well (be it not large contact).

I am not angry but am upset (sad) and worried that they have been so accusatory and verbally aggressive out of the blue. They have never suggested concern about any builder activity near or just inside their lands boundary. It feels like they are clutching at straws (with possible help of friends in high places assistance to pressure us (me)

I ma worried that being a guest in this country they may get away with this and officials will try to force us to pay up without any evidence or reasonable evidence.

My wife said the owners wife (owner husband has never spoken to me or my wife on the matter) said to her yesterday that they know high up people. I said to her they are accusing based on a one day test which they cannot show us and letting us know they have high up friends - Ask them if they would like to go complain about us at the police station and I will express my concerns over unsubstantiated accusations and indirect intimidation. After all we are the house owner anyway not the builder. I fail to see we are in the loop as it is between them and builder to sort out. having said that we are relatives of the builder and their neighbours.

Any suggestion to sort this out as amicably as possible would be much appreciated

OR

info that will help my builder negative accusations that thinner or paint caused to some adult fish to die but not baby or very young fish - just does not sound like thinner or paint type poisoning symptoms to me at all. (I kept many tanks of marine, and cichlids and tropical fish is large tanks for years in the UK ) I was into the hobby big time and my knowledge of (tank fish) is not novice. Still sounds like 1) Lack of oxygen, 2) ammonium/ nitrite pollution due to lack of oxygen and 3/4 disease/poisoning last.

Thanks for reading long post.

Dave

[dave9988]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

Edited December 27, 2008 by dave9988

[sibeymai]

Seems like your neighbour is out for some farang cash. If you don't want to move I suggest you negotiate a settlement, guilty or not.

[Heng]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

Um, thanks for the reference, but I don't have anything to advise in this instance. I don't actually do any fish farming, just the export portion from many farms, breeders, etc. As for construction, yes we do have a construction branch and it's part of our operations standards to clearly specify what can be discarded, in what manner, and in what location... as the average local laborer typically considers anything 5 meters beyond the 'construction site' as the 'dumping site.' Not saying your worker's statements are false, but I'd say 9/10 times, without specific instructions to the contrary, this is the exact type of dumping and improper disposal of construction materials that I see all the time. And if you ask him where the thinners were actually discarded, I'd bet that he wouldn't know what to say as he'd probably have no idea as to where they should be discarded (we warehouse and save ours for a relative who does hotel/apartment sized paint contracts).

[gdhm]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

Hi Dave

I am interested in your comments

We are not seeking divorcing ourselves from actions of the builder but is Thai law different to UK in this regard. I was voicing a legal belief that the builder is the one the Neighbour should be communicating with and they should sort it out (with us only involved if builder is proved to be guilty and he fails to redress).

We have not done anything and we have not instructed the builder on how he should operate Are you saying the builder has no responsibility for any of his actions whilst building the house.

That would mean a contractor has no personal or professional legal liability for professional negligence.

We contracted a builder (be he family) and we had a written contract based that for x amount he build a house as per architects plans.

That makes me the customer not the boss surely.

Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

Hi Dave

I am interested in your comments

We are not seeking divorcing ourselves from actions of the builder but is Thai law different to UK in this regard. I was voicing a legal belief that the builder is the one the Neighbour should be communicating with and they should sort it out (with us only involved if builder is proved to be guilty and he fails to redress).

We have not done anything and we have not instructed the builder on how he should operate Are you saying the builder has no responsibility for any of his actions whilst building the house.

That would mean a contractor has no personal or professional legal liability for professional negligence.

We contracted a builder (be he family) and we had a written contract based that for x amount he build a house as per architects plans.

That makes me the customer not the boss surely.

Regards

Dave

So how does it work in Thailand?

1) The fish owner has no burden of real proof our builder has done what he assures us he has not and I see no evidence he has either and the accusers have not seen him do so or found evidence he has done either. Building a house is now considered proof of close by land pollution now?

2) The fish owner has never queried anything with our builder despite only living 10 metres from where the builder has put cement.

3) The builder is not responsible we are.

4) So we can be made to pay out god knows what on no supportive evidence other than accusations and guessing and the builder has no responsibility.

5) So I assume if his fish die next year he will just accuse us that the pollution remained OR we have since used pesticides in our garden that he guesses have washed to his pond in the monsoon. Nice yearly money making racket.

if he is so sure it was our builder, why did he also talk with the owner adjacent to his pond on the other side and accuse her of termite poisoning of his pond.

How poison can take out adult fish but not ANY fry and very young fish I will NEVER UNDERSTAND as that flies against science fact that baby and young fish are more sensitive to poisoning than adult fish (assuming any can live).

Stinks to me.

This sure is a corrupt and unjust country.

Dave

[dave9988]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

Hi Dave

I am interested in your comments

We are not seeking divorcing ourselves from actions of the builder but is Thai law different to UK in this regard. I was voicing a legal belief that the builder is the one the Neighbour should be communicating with and they should sort it out (with us only involved if builder is proved to be guilty and he fails to redress).

We have not done anything and we have not instructed the builder on how he should operate Are you saying the builder has no responsibility for any of his actions whilst building the house.

That would mean a contractor has no personal or professional legal liability for professional negligence.

We contracted a builder (be he family) and we had a written contract based that for x amount he build a house as per architects plans.

That makes me the customer not the boss surely.

Regards

Dave

I can see your argument. I guess I get the image of a 'builder' in Thailand as being very unprofessional thus I just put you into the role of boss and ultimately responsible for his actions as he likely does not have very much money himself or insurance to cover this type of thing. That is why they have licensing and insurance in the West, to create accountability. In Thailand, I doubt that exists so the most logical way to prevent builders from just dumping stuff anywhere would be to hold the person who hired them responsible. I mean, lets say the fish pond is worth a half million baht and his net worth is 20k baht. It'd be like suing the individual McDonald's employee who spilled coffee in your lap for his $250 a week salary instead of the corporation for $15,000,000.... Plus, you are a farang.

Anyways, it does not sound like they have the proof regardless.

GL.

Edited December 27, 2008 by dave9988

[candoman89]

Trained as a limnologist (google/wiki that one if you don't know what it is) with some expertise in toxicity testing and contaminated water.

Thinners are very volatile and will evaporate quickly and DO NOT mix with water (for the most part but there are some expensive ones that do). Since they are volatile if you smell them easily they are evaporating and hence wont get into the water. If they do get into the water they are likely to leave a sheen on the surface of the water which is very noticeable (not to be confused with a metallic sheen). Also; they will go into the ground before they travel very far overland.

Any water quality tests for thinners (mainly benzene/toluene/ethylbenzene/xylene) will cost substantial (in the hundreds of dollars each) and there are no, to my knowledge, any accredited labs in Thailand that can do these tests (we send all our samples to either Malaysia or Hong Kong to a lab called ALS).

This is Thailand...what has happened is that fish died (due to lack of oxygen?) and the neighbor has to blame someone and you are it....It definitely can't be his fault so it must be you.

[dumball]

In your shoes , I would print that advise and have it translated into Thai , print off a few copies and just hand one to the neighbor next time she comes calling , ask her who tested the water again .

[Rimmer]

Doubt that chemicals are leaching into your pond, more likely bacteria with the dry weather or maybe just the iron from the soil leaching in.

You do not say how many are dying each day or if you did I missed it.

We have about 1000 talapia fish in our pond and for some unexplainable reason we started to find ten to 15 dead adults every day. My GF checked with the fish shop that sells them and they gave us some anti bacterial stuff to add to the water. The deaths slowed and after about one week stopped altogether. Maybe worth a try to talk to the local pet/fish supplier.

You can buy the chemical most everywhere as it's apparantly quite a common problem.

[gdhm]

Trained as a limnologist (google/wiki that one if you don't know what it is) with some expertise in toxicity testing and contaminated water.

Thinners are very volatile and will evaporate quickly and DO NOT mix with water (for the most part but there are some expensive ones that do). Since they are volatile if you smell them easily they are evaporating and hence wont get into the water. If they do get into the water they are likely to leave a sheen on the surface of the water which is very noticeable (not to be confused with a metallic sheen). Also; they will go into the ground before they travel very far overland.

Any water quality tests for thinners (mainly benzene/toluene/ethylbenzene/xylene) will cost substantial (in the hundreds of dollars each) and there are no, to my knowledge, any accredited labs in Thailand that can do these tests (we send all our samples to either Malaysia or Hong Kong to a lab called ALS).

This is Thailand...what has happened is that fish died (due to lack of oxygen?) and the neighbour has to blame someone and you are it....It definitely can't be his fault so it must be you.

Thanks Very Very helpful. Brilliant

They are tonight trying to swing towards the cement now as well (as back up no doubt).

It is obvious to me they are clutching at straws.

The cement which I can see a light covering just inside their boundary is 4 or 5 metres from the water. (should, not be there of course).

If that got into the water in the monsoon season even if able to harm the fish it should have happened months ago not the last two weeks.

Once again I fail to comprehend how adult fish can die to poisoning but more vulnerable fry and baby fish are all OK (they have told us this - could be their mistake) . I believe that is not possible IF poisoning is cause. I am convinced its is oxygen depletion with the cloudy weather and dropping water levels of the pond due to no rainfall, and the fish no doubt growing larger and needing more oxygen, of which adult fish would need the most.

We are just 1 km from the large Bung Kaen Nakhorn. One reader on the Khon Kaen Forum has advised us that (as twice before this year) fish are currently dying in the lake (not as bad as before). I understand the Lady has been told this already (I only heard about it 10 mins ago) she said

quote " different water, different reason". It seems to me they are looking for recompense for their investment in their fish.

Do you have any knowledge of risk of cement mix. I understand that is tiny as it will only really affect (maybe) PH alkalinity only if in large amounts)

Thanks for you info. Not sure at end of day if facts, evidence and proof count in Thailand. seems to me It more to do with who has the most influential people on their side or who has the Head of Village on their side, or who is the most able to make trouble and who gives way

If anybody know about cement and fish would like to here as I said it is not a large about a long way form the water there are NO SIGNS of anything above ground between the cement mix and the pond side NONE AT ALL so any pollution MUST have gone via underground methods and that i would have thought would have needed load of rain and soaked soil (none or which has happened in 2 months).

We all in KKC know how dry it has been since Nov.

Dave

[gdhm]

Doubt that chemicals are leaching into your pond, more likely bacteria with the dry weather or maybe just the iron from the soil leaching in.

You do not say how many are dying each day or if you did I missed it.

We have about 1000 talapia fish in our pond and for some unexplainable reason we started to find ten to 15 dead adults every day. My GF checked with the fish shop that sells them and they gave us some anti bacterial stuff to add to the water. The deaths slowed and after about one week stopped altogether. Maybe worth a try to talk to the local pet/fish supplier.

You can buy the chemical most everywhere as it's apparantly quite a common problem.

Hi Rimmer, is there no end to help, and advice you give me usually in connection with my house building problems. Thanks

I did not mention the number fish dying as I do not know. I cannot speak Thai. The lady gives us info she wishes to via my wife (husband has not shown his face) maybe she is the power and his anger is fictitious and it is more hers his.

My wife listens but does not ask much . To be honest she does not know what is useful to ask or find out. I do not blame her as my education and understanding of fish is much greater than hers AND I know to ask for all info in the hopes of clues or errors of info or inconsistencies.

I did keep many aquarium fish for years. the Oscars and cichlid type fish kept growing and my 6 ft x 18 ins x 24 ins tank had heavy filtration, water changes and aeration before I decided it was time to cull and sell a lot of them back to the shop. However I learnt a hel_l of a lot about fish, water maintenance and quality in that time. (some 10 years)

Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

I can see your argument. I guess I get the image of a 'builder' in Thailand as being very unprofessional thus I just put you into the role of boss and ultimately responsible for his actions as he likely does not have very much money himself or insurance to cover this type of thing. That is why they have licensing and insurance in the West, to create accountability. In Thailand, I doubt that exists so the most logical way to prevent builders from just dumping stuff anywhere would be to hold the person who hired them responsible. I mean, lets say the fish pond is worth a half million baht and his net worth is 20k baht. It'd be like suing the individual McDonald's employee who spilled coffee in your lap for his $250 a week salary instead of the corporation for $15,000,000.... Plus, you are a farang.

Anyways, it does not sound like they have the proof regardless.

GL.

I go along with what you say here GL. I think the Lady told K they spent 10,000 Baht on stocking with fish. Also just found out they said they have not lost any fish in two years of doing this fish breeding. Without meaning to put them down it is hardly expert experience (just two seasons)

I guess the money is huge for them and they never thought of disease or adverse conditions. Consequently they may well actually not think what I have said is genuine. They may genuinely be thinking "what has changed in 2 years?. Ah yes they are building a house so what may be a cause it they are to blame? OK cement, paint, thinners etc.

Not unfair thought process, but over simplistic and not fair without any proof or even reasonable circumstantial proof simplistic and I do not take kindly to kit flying of supposed water tests that evidence is not possible or we have influential contacts tactic.

Be interesting if our Builder has too. He is a much liked and known man even if not powerful.

Truth is we are not well off now house was 450,000 Baht more than the builder promised us and the GBP Exchange Rate has murdered my pension by 27% in one year 62,000 Baht down to 45,500baht. I am told on another Forum that a London currency worker says his circle are predicting around only 44 baht to 1 GBP in the next 2 months. My minimal saving are needed to prop up the Visa financial requirements.

Trouble is, for Thais a large house means millionaire they do not consider maybe most money went into the house as it would in the West

So I suspect if we end up not paying all around will feel rich Farang won at expense of poor Thais.

And we do not want bad relations BUT 10,000 baht if that was all they wanted (for ever) is a lot for us at present.

All I want is a peaceful life and I am tired of people all my life seeing me as a gullible soft touch, my first Thai wife tried to get everything she could,form me in 3½ months of a bad marriage and extended family thinking I am the solution of thier gambling and loan requirements. I love Thailand but its Farang =ATM is wearing me down.

Regards

Dave

[plachon]

From the info given it is very unlikely you are to blame for the fish deaths and she is just trying it on to gouge money out of you and your wife.

As someone else has mentioned, most of the thinner would quickly evaporate and without any rain, any residue would not be able to leach down to the pond, even assuming your builder had chucked some leftover away there. The cement would not cause any problems, unless in massive quantity, which it obviously isn't. And as other people have mentioned, it is not uncommon for fish to die at this time of year, as temperatures drop and disease-causing agents increase. I would also guess it is unlikley to be caused by oxygen defiency either during the cool season, unless it is very overstocked (which it may well be), in which case the owner is squarely to blame. You can get a hel_l of a lot of tilapia for 10,000 baht, so that figure may well be an exagerration and she is just angling (excuse the pun), for more money than she actually spent.

The problem it seems to me is she's tagged your missus as somebody inferior to her (in the complex Thai social heirarchy) and she thinks she's got powerful contacts (may or may not be true) and thinks your family and builder are a soft touch. My advice is hold your ground, don't admit any liability, demand proof of pollution (as you've already done), and fight it tooth and nail. You may lose good relations with your neighbours, but if you capitulate to this dragon lady, then she'll probably be back for more next time her fish die or someother misfortune of her own making occurs. And how can you have good relations with someone who takes you for a ride in any case? Dig in and hold your ground.

[gdhm]

From the info given it is very unlikely you are to blame for the fish deaths and she is just trying it on to gouge money out of you and your wife.

As someone else has mentioned, most of the thinner would quickly evaporate and without any rain, any residue would not be able to leach down to the pond, even assuming your builder had chucked some leftover away there. The cement would not cause any problems, unless in massive quantity, which it obviously isn't. And as other people have mentioned, it is not uncommon for fish to die at this time of year, as temperatures drop and disease-causing agents increase. I would also guess it is unlikley to be caused by oxygen defiency either during the cool season, unless it is very overstocked (which it may well be), in which case the owner is squarely to blame. You can get a hel_l of a lot of tilapia for 10,000 baht, so that figure may well be an exagerration and she is just angling (excuse the pun), for more money than she actually spent.

The problem it seems to me is she's tagged your missus as somebody inferior to her (in the complex Thai social heirarchy) and she thinks she's got powerful contacts (may or may not be true) and thinks your family and builder are a soft touch. My advice is hold your ground, don't admit any liability, demand proof of pollution (as you've already done), and fight it tooth and nail. You may lose good relations with your neighbours, but if you capitulate to this dragon lady, then she'll probably be back for more next time her fish die or someother misfortune of her own making occurs. And how can you have good relations with someone who takes you for a ride in any case? Dig in and hold your ground.

Everything you have said is how I feel. The builder (my wife's uncle is a kind but very meek man. easily intimidated. If I could speak to the Head village man I could pull the accusations apart but he is not likely to be strong or know how to.

The only thing that would make me capitulate is not guilt but threat or fear of physical or property revenge. I have my family to think of.

The pond water levels are clearly receding in the dry weather and ther fish are growing. The adult fish dying but not the babies is my main reason for suspecting oxygen depletion. In the hot dry season this pond almost does not exist I have photos of the area when we first bought our land in 31 Jan 2008 NO water there whatsoever so this pond is shallow and not a mature pond of many years but perennial.

The neighbours said the back pond is not losing fish. If you look at my Jan 2008 pics you will see the back pond existed in those whilst the front was totally dried out. Clearly it is much deeper so I would expect the fish to be happier in that deeper pond if oxygen depletion is the cause.

Pond area 31/01/08 scanning left to right. For your bearings The electricity pole to the right in first photo is the pole you can just see in later cement photos.

Only Builders stuff on their land (tiny). the rubble is along the roadside (which they gave/told the builder and my wife permission to place there.

As you can see there is NO SIGN of pollution of staining between the cement patch and the water side.

Last photo shows the neighbours house where flag and tiny jetty to left can be seen (they feed the fish from there).

Looking at the pics and this one last May 2008 of the area from top floor of our house during building

I NOW think the front pond is actually brand NEW because for it to dry out to last years situation in one month would seem surprising.

Yet by May last year there was a lot of water there and the Monsoon season had hardly started by then.

Looks like they have released water to the front pond area from the deeper back pond to create a new pond.

That being the case they have NO idea of the soil content below their new front pond area when they flooded and created it to know if it was contaminated or not or suitable for a fish pond.

They are totally guessing on many fronts and telling us they have kept fish for 2 years without any losses was deceptive to say the least as they clearly did not have this new pond area last year.

NOT HAPPY somehow need to tie all this up for the Head Village man and others to see the neighbours have not case and are trying it on in desperation. In the May photos you can see no visible builders stuff over the road.

Dave

Dave

Edited December 28, 2008 by gdhm

[LivinLOS]

"10) we were asked to talk with our builder and decided what we are going to do. I told wife its builders problem anyway but what do they expect without proof just accusations."

I have no idea if its actually the builder's fault the fish are dying, but certainly, you are liable if that is the case. You can't say its not your problem.

You should talk to poster "Heng" I think he is in this biz.

So your saying I am liable for every action of every private contractor I engage ?? The mechanic who fixes my car ?? etc etc etc..

If this person was a legal employee then 'perhaps' I could understand that.. But a contractor ?? Who is paid to perform a function.. Surely he has the liability for his own actions.

[ignis]

What fish are they ?

If Koi, then there has been a big problem this last 2 months with a Virus, Did they buy any new fish?

Also it has been colder this year and Koi will die in the cold, we have a heater in the pond + cost some 1,400 baht extra on the electric bill for last month, so the heater was on quite often..

Even so 4 of our big ones have died [sell for 8 - 10,000 baht each] and about 8 mid sized [sell for around 2 - 3,000 each], but NO small one died, have around 300 of mixed sizes, for the past 4 weeks we have taken out 1/3 of the water and refilled adding medication every 2 days with purified water [we have a water purifier for the pond]

Thai Breeders and Fish sellers have had problems this year.... As the weather appears to have changed Breeders are building new deeper tanks/ponds many also have heaters..

The other question is did they have Pest Control come to spray? was it a windy day?

Do they add salt ? in the winter months the sun is stronger here as there is little cloud

Is there any plants in or around the pond? if it was your builder and thinners then these would have died.

[Lost in LOS]

get your own test done.....very cheap

i had a construction company in the US and most of the painters wash out their brushes etc off the side of the road since there are not a lot of alternatives. Bad practice but common one. if the thinner went in the pond it will kill the fish but there are lots of other things that will do it also

[Heng]

What does your builder say? "I threw the stuff away far far away on someone else's property... with no fish ponds?... is that the right answer, teacher?"

[PattayaParent]

I'd get your own samples of the water and the soil BEFORE their 'expert' shows up and get them tested yourself at a different lab, as jimmys says it's very cheap. Ask them to check for paint / thinner contamination, also termite poison, and any other harmful chemicals.

Do it quick before they have a chance to 'add' something to the water to strengthen their case.

It's the builder's responsibility and liability for any damage he causes, not yours. He should carry third party liability insurance, get him to notify his insurers and get their guys down to witness any testing.

[gdhm]

I'd get your own samples of the water and the soil BEFORE their 'expert' shows up and get them tested yourself at a different lab, as jimmys says it's very cheap. Ask them to check for paint / thinner contamination, also termite poison, and any other harmful chemicals.

Do it quick before they have a chance to 'add' something to the water to strengthen their case.

It's the builder's responsibility and liability for any damage he causes, not yours. He should carry third party liability insurance, get him to notify his insurers and get their guys down to witness any testing.

You are saying differently to candoman89 who says it is expensive and he is unaware of accredited labs in Thailand I am confused.

There is no way the builder has insurance he is a one man outfit who probably never even declares taxes.

I agree with you about before anything is added to the water. but that may have been done already. I suspect the testing of the soil between site on builders cement and the water is the real test site not the water if trying to say our Builder did it. If there is no contamination then they cannot suggest leaching.

In answer to a question "are there plants near the pond and are they dying. NO take a look at photos above.

The lady did say the pond near the edge smells bad. Did not say what smell. I suspect ammonia bad as I am sure she would have said is thinner smell. Trouble is I have no confidence in the accuracy of what we are told after the first water testers report is no available or he contactable.

If the pond owner cannot prove they tested the site before they made their new pond in May time then I feel they have no evidence anyway to prove when ANY contamination (if found) occurred. It may have been there years.

Do not wish to do testing or call a lawyer this is all expenses i cannot afford AND gives the impression I think I need to test and think the accusations may be true and that I (not builder have liability).

I take peoples point but feel wait for their test Monday (tomorrow) and report and their meeting with builder and Head of Village has taken place to see what is what.

I have been invited to be at the water test tomorrow. I will NOT attend as it could be a set-up. Tell the man to test where they want maybe prime the water first and then say I witnessed a good genuine test which I felt may reveal something. Additionally how would I know if the tester is a "friendly"

I feel any testing on my behalf will come ONLY if a substantial report by a certified labs suggests I need too verify. I will make no mention in advance I would target the soil no that water because if tampering is going one that may be forgotten and foul play would be suspected if soil OK.

I hasten to add we have no reason to believe any foul play has or will go one. There is aback pond and I doubt one would risk adjacent

ponds.

I would point out in any investigation that when they had their new iron gate and sprayed just before fish started dying (I think coincidence myself). It is only heir word (which ours is just as good) that THEIR workers did not get spray or thinners near their pond (pretty close and closer than where our builder has some cement mix.

[gdhm]

What does your builder say? "I threw the stuff away far far away on someone else's property... with no fish ponds?... is that the right answer, teacher?"

Heng have you tried getting a straight answer from a Thai via an interpreter.

This Thinner thing is nonsense just how much thinner does on use to gloss paint 6 doors, varnish 3 others and do the frames. Builders will use as little Turps or whatever as possible to clean brushes and if by any chance it did nto completely evaporate over night they would re-usue the next day.

The pond owners in their desperation to get some investment back on their fish are purely targeting the ONLY substances they know builders use. Thinners, paint and cement mix.

This was ONE house, and little wastage check out the photos this is the only spot where any cement mix and tiny bit of emulsion paint can be seen or found. There is NO sign of thinner, thinner bottles or gloss paint etc.

When the monsoon could have washed any thinners or paints towards their pond our builder was not advanced enough to be painting. He still has not finished now and is running 3½ months late.

--------

Oh I was asked what type of fish are in the pond . I cannot see ther fish but think they are NOT KOI CARP. I suspect Tilapia but do not know as cannot get near pond to see.

---

Based upon comments about Thinners evaporating I did a test this morning. Glass dish with 3cms of thinner from one of the bottle our builder has been using 6:30am I left it outside on the patio. Now 10:51am it is 100% dry.

I cannot see how thinner from my builder can be blamed (even if found in tests he would need gallons and gallons and plenty of rain (we had had none recently) to get it to the pond before evaporating into the air.

If there is thinner in the water it certainly has not come from our builder.

[Heng]

What does your builder say? "I threw the stuff away far far away on someone else's property... with no fish ponds?... is that the right answer, teacher?"

Heng have you tried getting a straight answer from a Thai via an interpreter.

This Thinner thing is nonsense just how much thinner does on use to gloss paint 6 doors, varnish 3 others and do the frames. Builders will use as little Turps or whatever as possible to clean brushes and if by any chance it did nto completely evaporate over night they would re-usue the next day.

The pond owners in their desperation to get some investment back on their fish are purely targeting the ONLY substances they know builders use. Thinners, paint and cement mix.

This was ONE house, and little wastage check out the photos this is the only spot where any cement mix and tiny bit of emulsion paint can be seen or found. There is NO sign of thinner, thinner bottles or gloss paint etc.

When the monsoon could have washed any thinners or paints towards their pond our builder was not advanced enough to be painting. He still has not finished now and is running 3½ months late.

--------

Oh I was asked what type of fish are in the pond . I cannot see ther fish but think they are NOT KOI CARP. I suspect Tilapia but do not know as cannot get near pond to see.

---

Based upon comments about Thinners evaporating I did a test this morning. Glass dish with 3cms of thinner from one of the bottle our builder has been using 6:30am I left it outside on the patio. Now 10:51am it is 100% dry.

I cannot see how thinner from my builder can be blamed (even if found in tests he would need gallons and gallons and plenty of rain (we had had none recently) to get it to the pond before evaporating into the air.

If there is thinner in the water it certainly has not come from our builder.

In other words, do you feel like your builder is lying?

I made the comment because it seems like you are taking the stance that the blame/fault is your builder's responsibility, and at the same time you are trying to establish that your builder didn't do it (no proof) and that as a backup plan, you're trying to establish that even if he did do it, that the poisons involved would not have killed the victims. Either he did or he didn't, not sure why you are trying to pursue multiple 'defenses.'

Thinners do evaporate, but they also kill fish (if you'd like to experiment on that one, go right ahead... despite the fact that water and thinners separate... as do oil and water by the way, but I don't think anyone is going to argue that oil spills don't kill wildlife). We can't really conclude anything here from general common use knowledge of thinners or fish.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Heng

[gdhm]

In other words, do you feel like your builder is lying?

I made the comment because it seems like you are taking the stance that the blame/fault is your builder's responsibility, and at the same time you are trying to establish that your builder didn't do it (no proof) and that as a backup plan, you're trying to establish that even if he did do it, that the poisons involved would not have killed the victims. Either he did or he didn't, not sure why you are trying to pursue multiple 'defenses.'

Thinners do evaporate, but they also kill fish (if you'd like to experiment on that one, go right ahead... despite the fact that water and thinners separate... as do oil and water by the way, but I don't think anyone is going to argue that oil spills don't kill wildlife). We can't really conclude anything here from general common use knowledge of thinners or fish.

Sorry Heng, fair and valid question. No I do not think my builder is lying for one second (and I am not saying that to be partisan).

I meant when i ask question by the time my words are interpreted and the other hears and answers and that is interpreted back and Thais do not answer questions in a direct manner as Westerns do I find it it all gets lost in translation.

I am a belt and braces man Heng soi I will throw all my thoughts into the ring and fire on all cylinders if unfairly attacked.

So that is the reason I say even IF he had been guilty (he is not) I do not see how I am responsible for any acts of a builder I contract to build me a house.

That did not mean I was unsure in his innocence. Quite the reverse, I ask all the right questions and if I felt there was any chance he was guilty or telling me a lie I would not attempt to defend him. In fact I told my wife that had he done such a thing if I had to pay because he could not I would seek subsequent financial redress from him for his actions.

Yes I am sure thinners most certainly would kill fish if in water.

However ther are no signs of thinners being near their land or being dumped. If they had been it is well away from the pond and I am satisfied by my own experiment they would have evaporated long before making water or anywhere near it.

There is NO plant damage or distressed undergrowth between roadside and the pond check out the photos in an earlier post in this topic.

I am certain plant life much nearer to any burning thinners would have reacted very badly to splashing or contaminated soil.

<y builder has been building since Feb 2008 and yet the photos above are all he has done near their land see for your self - TINY and over a tiny area of area metre approx. Hardly sign of reckless dumping of thinners or whatever.

Additionally last night they started suggesting maybe cement over the months is the cause. Interesting that as it was thinners and paint they started off accusing him of. Cement is much safer and as you can see in the photos its is tiny deposits.

Why did they change they stance? Well my wife told them what I pointed out that the Builder only has been painting recently most was emulsion and did not involve the need for thinners, He did not use thinner at all until then. Almost no rain has happened here in 2 months so there is no way rain water could wash thinners soaked into the soil into the pond (my wife did not even mention they evaporate very quickly yo NOTHING anyway. They pond owners wife then said "well he has been cementing for months and there are traces of that by the roadside and just inside our fence that could have killed our fish

Forgive me Heng this all sounds disparate and outrageous and ever changing with the wind, as I come up with good logic to questions such as their first water test report and tester not being available , then the thinner theory, now its the cement story as well in case the thinner story does not work. But it should do as they said their first tester found paint and thinner in the water so why suggest cement?

They really do not want me to involve Lawyers as they would make mince meat of the Pond owners stories and logic. If that first tester never existed then thy have lied and slandered our Builder without ANY evidence. Also we will demand they produce that first tester as inability to do suggests they lie.

Heng, if you had evidence someone had polluted your pond would you accuse the builder, tell the owner to the house as well and tell them to to discuss it and let you know what was decided without passing the conclusive water test contamination report to substantiate your allegation. Of course you would show a copy of the test report. Only a lair would not. as such a report if authentic and of adequate lab testing quality would have the builder on then back foot.

I have every confidence (bearing in mind the first supposed test that the second test they plan to have on Monday will say exactly what they wish the tester to say. They told my wife they are having a 2nd test because we did not believe the first.

My wife said we were in no position to believe or disbelieve the first test as they had not given us the report to look at and they cannot produce the tester either for us to speak to.

Heng you final sentence says it all "We can't really conclude anything here from general common use knowledge of thinners or fish".

My point entirely, with this no proof accusation My pics and logic and info form this forum hold up much better to examination then their version and guesses. If thinner was found in the water how do they prove their gate painters were not guilty? Unless tests can show whose thinner and who put it there and when (don't believe thinner,paint cement is in the water anyway (unless "just" applied).

Dave

Edited December 28, 2008 by gdhm

[Heng]

thanks for the detailed answer, Dave.

It's a tough call and after all this is just a discussion, sorry for not being more helpful otherwise. In general, I'd say employers are responsible for the actions of their employees (and I know that most will come out and say that there plenty of folks who would not...), and I don't think that the 'term' of employment (contract, at will, etc.) should make a difference. So if it were me, I would be focusing on whether my employee committed the act that he was accused of or not. If not, then I'd defend and perhaps counter-attack. If guilty though, I'd try to negotiate a settlement and then serve out punishment or termination of employment accordingly, depending on the issue.

[Maigo6]

I seem to recall that water can be tested at Khon Kaen University.

[MJP]

Seems like your neighbour is out for some farang cash. If you don't want to move I suggest you negotiate a settlement, guilty or not.

For the love of God DO NOT DO THIS!

Contaminated land remediation is my business in the UK and elsewhere. I don't know the clean up costs in Thailand, but you are looking at HUGE money.

Do not accept liability.

Get the water tested yourself, independently. You need to get it tested for chlorinated solvents as well as getting a GC-FID fingerprint and/or a GCMS Broadscan analysis as soon as possible.

Then, using a sample of the 'paint thinners' get a GC-FID fingerprint and GCMS Broadscan done of that, to compare the two samples and establish whether there may be a link.

Do not tell anyone you are doing this.

These guys look ideal for it.

http://www.ncalabs.co.th/services.html

PM me if you need any other help.

Edited December 28, 2008 by MJP

[gdhm]

Yes Heng, I think we agree on this completely. That is how I am seeing it (even if I am sending confusing signals).

I have been conned before and I react to such attempts BUT always take what I believe the best road despite my inner feelings.

Kind regards

Dave

[gdhm]

I seem to recall that water can be tested at Khon Kaen University.

Thanks that may be very useful as I would have no idea where to start.

Dave

[gdhm]

Seems like your neighbour is out for some farang cash. If you don't want to move I suggest you negotiate a settlement, guilty or not.

For the love of God DO NOT DO THIS!

Contaminated land remediation is my business in the UK and elsewhere. I don't know the clean up costs in Thailand, but you are looking at HUGE money.

Do not accept liability.

Get the water tested yourself, independently. You need to get it tested for chlorinated solvents as well as getting a GC-FID fingerprint and/or a GCMS Broadscan analysis as soon as possible.

Then, using a sample of the 'paint thinners' get a GC-FID fingerprint and GCMS Broadscan done of that, to compare the two samples and establish whether there may be a link.

Do not tell anyone you are doing this.

These guys look ideal for it.

http://www.ncalabs.co.th/services.html

PM me if you need any other help.

Thanks much appreciated MJP. will first see how it develops.

I have NO intention of accepting liability or guilt on something I do not believe.

I could not access their land without permission or not being seen immediately by one of their family.

In the first instance I expect them to make a seemingly valid case with reasonable suggestion for proof. Not some local friend testing but a certified body capable of such testing.

This is not a dumping or company dumping situation the photos show a tiny level of material (not damaging) just overflowing inside their fence from the road side .

They gave the builder permission (and said to my wife he could put stuff near their fence - obviously a little would go across.

If they want us to listen they first have the burden of reasonable proof to substantiate their wild (in my view) accusations. Fish dying is not proof - just a possibility.

Dave