Governor Petitioned To Ban The Second Chiang Mai Gay Pride Parade

[sriracha john]

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http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-s-P...th-t238749.html

Thailand's Most Polluted Air Is In The North, a four-fold increased risk of lung cancer compared to other areas

[Loaded]

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Now, if you had posted

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[Paagai]

Red threats call off gay march

A few red-shirts also tried to break through police security in front of the stage to attack an organiser because they were upset that she had been taking their pictures.

"Chiang Mai people cannot accept this and will stop the parade by all means, even violence."

Thank you both for the photos... but please... stay safe.

From the four pictures Ally posted it was the girl in the pink shirt in the bottom right corner of the bottom right picture they tried to attack and grab her camera. The police intervened quickly and restrained the red guys - only active thing I saw them do all day Should add I was watching from a safe distance........

Heard a few days ago the red shirts were planning to protest but I'd dismissed it as rumour only. There could be no logical reason for doing so. As it was I'd say the reds scored a massive own goal!

Firstly, the cancellation of the parade will give the event much more publicity than would otherwise have been the case. Secondly, far from upholding Lanna culture, the red shirts portrayed Chiang Mai as a city full of selfish intollerant thugs with no respect for the rule of law or the rights of anybody else. Just what CM tourist business needs right now.......

I agree with Thailiban's comments, its a disappointment the parade didn't go ahead, any violence by the reds would have generated a whole load more publicity and made them look even more ridiculous than they did yesterday.

From what I saw most of the mob were paid thugs from the surrounding countryside, real lo-so types who wouldn't know thai culture from lao kao. Far from educated I suspect most would have been hard pressed to write their own name! Pity the police didn't bring the mobile urine testing unit with them, I'm sure that would have been a quick way to reduce their numbers Though it might have had a similar effect on the parade too........

I think the real story has nothing to do with gay parade, but was an excuse for the Red's to be on the streets and get at something they saw as being organised by the yellows - though I can't understand how they make that connection. Guess we'll have to wait for the CM mail to tell us that

I live in the 'surrounding countryside'--just outside a small farming village. The people here are NOT thugs, nor are they uneducated--for example, the son of the older couple who run the local store has a degree from CMU in psychology, and is now in the USA studying for a Master's. The locals do have an awareness of their own culture, and treasure it. As a result, they are not happy about taking the worst (whatever that is, McDonalds, lack of respect for parents, etc) from Western culture and losing the best of their own culture--which many farangs may not even try to understand.

Even if what you, perhaps unwisely, wrote, was true--why do you suppose it would be necessary to be able to 'write your own name' in order to have feelings about whatever is happening in your own society and your rears about that?

Whatever the reason was for the red-shirts' unfortunate involvement, (my own view is that they want the publicity--probably the same reason that they joined in a farmers' protest at City Hall last week), I was there yesterday, and did not see any drunks or obviously stoned people on either side.

Keep a clear head, why don't you, and don't have the Thai people think that all farangs believe as you do. Some of us actually do want to be able to stay here!

okinasan

My jibe at the CM Mail was tongue in cheek (Note the simely), and darling, I have a perfectly clear head. You on the other hand seem to be in some fantsy world in total denial of what is really going on in Thailand. Your final sentence really gives the game away!

If this is the editorial policy of the CM mail its hardly a newspaper anymore is it? Anyway, your photographer was there and its already become clear in this thread where your sympathies lie. Let's see what you have the guts to publish and people can judge for themsleves.

[Ulysses G.]

[if I am not mistaken, BTW, you are a long time Thaksin supporter, yes?

If you search my old posts, I do not think that you will find even one about Thaksin when he was in power, however, I did not support the coup that had him removed from power and I do not hate him as so many farangs seem to. I would not call myself a supporter, but I think that he did some good things that are ignored by many foreigners.

He was better than most of the other Prime Ministers since I have lived here, which is not saying a lot.

[Jingthing]

Keep a clear head, why don't you, and don't have the Thai people think that all farangs believe as you do. Some of us actually do want to be able to stay here!

Perhaps this is tangential but I am a bit intrigued by a presumed farang "telling" other farangs to "keep a clear head."

No doubt because of my out of control Western "colonial" "monkey brain" I am reading too much into this, but bear with me if you will:

CLEAR HEAD

-- a Buddhist concept, yes?

-- also can mean empty headed, or mindless

-- in the context, the message is shut your trap and do not make waves

-- the Thai people are all individuals, we are all individuals, how can the "Thai people" think any one way even if we all get super clear headed?

Edited February 24, 2009 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

I was initially in favor of the Gay Pride Parade, but when I questioned my Thai staff how they felt about it and the red shirt’s interference, they told me that most local Thais feel like this is coming from foreign influence and intervention in their affairs and that it is "against Thai culture". They feel that there is little bigotry towards Gays in Thailand and that having a parade is way over the top as there is no parade for heterosexuals.

They also said that if people want to celebrate that day, there are plenty of gay bars and clubs where they can do what they wish in privacy, but having a parade about it is just not the Thai way.

Having a Gay Pride parade in Sydney or San Francisco makes a lot of sense, but if this is really how most Thais feel, perhaps we need to consider their feelings.

BS. So the majority crushes the rights of the minority? Do you think the majority of Americans support gay pride parades?

Thailand isn't America. The Thais have never had to fight to have homosexuality decriminalised because it's never been a criminal offence in the first place. It's bizarre to watch western gays move to Thailand to enjoy the more relaxed attitude to homosexuality only to try and import all their western cultural baggage with them. It's almost colonial.

In a country with no systemic discrimination against gays it just makes no sense to watch people struggle to make discrimination an issue.

UG on the other hand most likely has a staff that senses his personal bias etc. (Since every other parade is a 'str8' parade etc etc etc.

One thing is certain, that more info on HIV and AIDS needs to get out into the one community that matters ... the community of sexually active adults!

[Ulysses G.]

UG on the other hand most likely has a staff that senses his personal bias etc. (Since every other parade is a 'str8' parade etc etc etc.

My "personal bias" would be towards HAVING the parade, but I never mentioned this to my staff.

You don't think that grown up Thais are capable of forming their own opinions about their own country and culture? They are, I assure you.

[Jingthing]

There are indeed Thai gay activists fighting for full equal rights under the law in Thailand. The last I heard any news about this was during the drafting of a recent constitution. I seriously doubt that these activists have gone away. Whether or not gay Thai activists want western style parades or some other more Thai variation of a public gay event is hopefully up to them as this is their country. Gay people, Thai and foreign, will be all over the map about their opinions about whether there should be public gay events in Thailand and what the nature of these events if held should be, but one thing I think most of us can find agreement on is that these decisions should not be made by violent thuggish red shirt rule.

The fact that Thai gays have it better than Iranian gays and American gays (especially in some US regions), again, does not mean that there are not some Thai gays who feel there is some room for improvement with their status within their own society. Otherwise, why do these Thai gay activists even exist?

Edited February 24, 2009 by Jingthing

[mbincm]

Red threats call off gay march

A few red-shirts also tried to break through police security in front of the stage to attack an organiser because they were upset that she had been taking their pictures.

"Chiang Mai people cannot accept this and will stop the parade by all means, even violence."

Thank you both for the photos... but please... stay safe.

From the four pictures Ally posted it was the girl in the pink shirt in the bottom right corner of the bottom right picture they tried to attack and grab her camera. The police intervened quickly and restrained the red guys - only active thing I saw them do all day Should add I was watching from a safe distance........

Heard a few days ago the red shirts were planning to protest but I'd dismissed it as rumour only. There could be no logical reason for doing so. As it was I'd say the reds scored a massive own goal!

Firstly, the cancellation of the parade will give the event much more publicity than would otherwise have been the case. Secondly, far from upholding Lanna culture, the red shirts portrayed Chiang Mai as a city full of selfish intollerant thugs with no respect for the rule of law or the rights of anybody else. Just what CM tourist business needs right now.......

I agree with Thailiban's comments, its a disappointment the parade didn't go ahead, any violence by the reds would have generated a whole load more publicity and made them look even more ridiculous than they did yesterday.

From what I saw most of the mob were paid thugs from the surrounding countryside, real lo-so types who wouldn't know thai culture from lao kao. Far from educated I suspect most would have been hard pressed to write their own name! Pity the police didn't bring the mobile urine testing unit with them, I'm sure that would have been a quick way to reduce their numbers Though it might have had a similar effect on the parade too........

I think the real story has nothing to do with gay parade, but was an excuse for the Red's to be on the streets and get at something they saw as being organised by the yellows - though I can't understand how they make that connection. Guess we'll have to wait for the CM mail to tell us that

I live in the 'surrounding countryside'--just outside a small farming village. The people here are NOT thugs, nor are they uneducated--for example, the son of the older couple who run the local store has a degree from CMU in psychology, and is now in the USA studying for a Master's. The locals do have an awareness of their own culture, and treasure it. As a result, they are not happy about taking the worst (whatever that is, McDonalds, lack of respect for parents, etc) from Western culture and losing the best of their own culture--which many farangs may not even try to understand.

Even if what you, perhaps unwisely, wrote, was true--why do you suppose it would be necessary to be able to 'write your own name' in order to have feelings about whatever is happening in your own society and your rears about that?

Whatever the reason was for the red-shirts' unfortunate involvement, (my own view is that they want the publicity--probably the same reason that they joined in a farmers' protest at City Hall last week), I was there yesterday, and did not see any drunks or obviously stoned people on either side.

Keep a clear head, why don't you, and don't have the Thai people think that all farangs believe as you do. Some of us actually do want to be able to stay here!

okinasan

My jibe at the CM Mail was tongue in cheek (Note the simely), and darling, I have a perfectly clear head. You on the other hand seem to be in some fantsy world in total denial of what is really going on in Thailand. Your final sentence really gives the game away!

If this is the editorial policy of the CM mail its hardly a newspaper anymore is it? Anyway, your photographer was there and its already become clear in this thread where your sympathies lie. Let's see what you have the guts to publish and people can judge for themsleves.

There was nothing in CM Mail this week - except a picture and story of one of the people who opposed this parade and also a lecture on culture in Chiang Mai on the back page - is that a coincidence or what? i think not. we now have the answer where the editorial sympathies lie.

[WOWAsia]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

[Ricardo]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue, or ban the thugs who broke it up ?

[sriracha john]

Chiang Mai Red-Shirts Criticized for Shutting Down “Gay Pride” Parade

A gay group’s leader, informally known as Gay Natee, resents the Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai’s disturbance of the Gay Pride parade this past Saturday. Gay Natee has reiterated that the parade was not connected to politics.

The Gay Political Group of Thailand President Natee Theerarojanaphong, or Gay Natee, expressed resentment about the Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai’s shutting down the Gay Pride Parade in Chiang Mai this past February 21st.

Although, Gay Natee himself does not support the Gay Parade as he sees it as inappropriate in a highly-cultured society like Chiang Mai.

However, the President expressed discontent about the way the Red Shirt Group violently disturbed the Gay Parade, using discriminatory slurs and profanity against gays.

Meanwhile, Gay Natee said that the Red Shirt Group’s explanation for its disturbance as an expression of opinion is disappointing.

The President said that his expression of opinion against the Gay Pride parade, as well as other issues, has been intended to promote a good society, and that his motives have nothing to do with the yellow shirt group nor Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai.

- TOC / 2009-02-25

[polecat]

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue

erm, was that really the aim of the parade? Education?

[Thakkar]

I was initially in favor of the Gay Pride Parade, but when I questioned my Thai staff how they felt about it and the red shirt’s interference, they told me that most local Thais feel like this is coming from foreign influence and intervention in their affairs and that it is "against Thai culture". They feel that there is little bigotry towards Gays in Thailand and that having a parade is way over the top as there is no parade for heterosexuals.

They also said that if people want to celebrate that day, there are plenty of gay bars and clubs where they can do what they wish in privacy, but having a parade about it is just not the Thai way.

Having a Gay Pride parade in Sydney or San Francisco makes a lot of sense, but if this is really how most Thais feel, perhaps we need to consider their feelings.

I too have spoken to some Thais who say similar things to what your staff said. However I get the feeling they're not saying quite exactly what they're feeling, which is, that heterosexual Thais are simply embarrassed by gayness. This embarrassment may not be linked to prejudice of any sort (or, for some of them, it could be) but by an inclination to keep private things private.

This in turn stems perhaps from a misunderstanding of what a gay parade is about, which is (as I understand it): a chance for tentative gays (tentative in the sense of not being completely 'out' for fear of being ostracized) and closeted gays and other gays to feel that there are whole communities out there like them who can freely parade on Main Street and that society on the whole embraces gays as equal members (by virtue of the fact that such a parade can take place peacefully). It is also a chance to educate the public at large that there is nothing 'otherness' about gays apart from sexual orientation; that gays are everyday people with everyday concerns like everyone else.

This particular gay parade that's been forced to cancel had the added laudable goal of raising awareness of HIV/AIDS. The high incidence of the affliction in Northern Thailand should be of concern to us all. I also understand that this parade was organized by Thais. This should not be relevant, but I see that in this discussion, it seems to be.

My sense is that many heterosexual Thais do not 'mind' gays as long as the gayness is not too in-your-face. What some might call 'Asian subtlety' I guess. Subtlety however does not necessarily mean absence of prejudice. It is like asking a black man to play down his blackness. Is it possible for a black man to play down his blackness? Yes it is, and I say this out of experience.

As an Indian who speaks fluent Cantonese and who's spent many years in Hongkong, there's been many a time that I've played down (in ways too numerous and subtle to mention) my Indianess. It's a skill one learns almost imperceptibly, growing up in a city where subtle prejudice *was* (not so much now) rampant. I suspect gays have similar coping skills in a society that may not fully allow them to be themselves.

How I wish there had been Indian Pride Parades in Hongkong!

[neilrob]

An excellent summary of what a gay pride (or whatever pride) parade is all about and why it should have been allowed to happen peacefully. Thank you Thakkar. Neil

[IanForbes]

VERY good post, Thakkar. Thank you. Changing prejudices is a LONG term proposition that could take centuries to fully accomplish. However, I HAVE seen remarkable changes for the better in the past 40 years. That includes all types of prejudices. Unfortunately, there seems to be groups of the so called "victims" of prejudice that are perpetuating, or even increasing the intolerance of others.

I think frank discussions like this one on an open forum does a lot to inform people that their are many subtle (and not so subtle) aspects of all discussions on every topic.

[WOWAsia]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue, or ban the thugs who broke it up ?

the parade, its so sick

[jdinasia]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue, or ban the thugs who broke it up ?

the parade, its so sick

Thank goodness you are in "Old Europe" and not here

[WOWAsia]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue, or ban the thugs who broke it up ?

the parade, its so sick

Thank goodness you are in "Old Europe" and not here

its sad, we have also sick parades in Old Europe!- In what a sick world we live now?

Edited February 25, 2009 by WOWAsia

[Sao Jiang Mai]

WOWAsia, why is the parade sick? Do you find homosexuality sick? Or simply the fact that they want to hold a parade (like children have their children's day event, moo yor sausage makers have their fair, beauty pageants have parades) why on earth does the fact that a subculture (not that sub even, its 10-11% of world population) wants to hold a parade sick? Please explain.

[Jingthing]

Actually we are not 10 percent. More like 2 or 3 percent, not that it makes any difference. In any case, we are a minority and I don't see why we should have to cower to the whims of violent thugs in red shirts anywhere in the world.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have heard that straight, macho Old Europeans often have a sick parade down the streets of Pattaya.

Good for Gay Natee to come out publicly against the violent THUGS IN RED SHIRTS who violently prevented peaceful Thais from having a simple, decent parade. Even if he opposed certain ideas about the parade.

[WOWAsia]

WOWAsia, why is the parade sick? Do you find homosexuality sick? Or simply the fact that they want to hold a parade (like children have their children's day event, moo yor sausage makers have their fair, beauty pageants have parades) why on earth does the fact that a subculture (not that sub even, its 10-11% of world population) wants to hold a parade sick? Please explain.

I would like to explain but I cannot. The forum has rules.

[Jingthing]

I have heard that straight, macho Old Europeans often have a sick parade down the streets of Pattaya.

Good for Gay Natee to come out publicly against the violent THUGS IN RED SHIRTS who violently prevented peaceful Thais from having a simple, decent parade. Even if he opposed certain ideas about the parade.

Yes, kudos for gay Natee. Whether or not to have a parade (good reasons for both sides) should be up to the local gays and NOT violent red shirt thugs.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

WOWAsia, why is the parade sick? Do you find homosexuality sick? Or simply the fact that they want to hold a parade (like children have their children's day event, moo yor sausage makers have their fair, beauty pageants have parades) why on earth does the fact that a subculture (not that sub even, its 10-11% of world population) wants to hold a parade sick? Please explain.

I would like to explain but I cannot. The forum has rules.

That beggars belief. More like you are not capable of communicating without using obscenity and vile insults, yes?

[WOWAsia]

WOWAsia, why is the parade sick? Do you find homosexuality sick? Or simply the fact that they want to hold a parade (like children have their children's day event, moo yor sausage makers have their fair, beauty pageants have parades) why on earth does the fact that a subculture (not that sub even, its 10-11% of world population) wants to hold a parade sick? Please explain.

I would like to explain but I cannot. The forum has rules.

That beggars belief. More like you are not capable of communicating without using obscenity and vile insults, yes?

The forum has rules. Yes?

[Sao Jiang Mai]

Moderators, is WOWAsia allowed to expand on 'the parade is sick' comment? Is it against the rules? I dont see how it can be after the discussions we have had on this thread, but am waiting with bated breath to hear the explanation.

[Jingthing]

There is no rule against civilly making your case with polite language. Wow is simply copping out.

[IanForbes]

There is no rule against civilly making your case with polite language. Wow is simply copping out.

I could do it for him/her, but what point would that be? I always enjoy a good, civil debate on ANY subject. I'm willing to present a believable case for EITHER side in a debate... for or against something. It seems the only rule on this forum is talking about prostitution. It's easier to stick one's head in the sand and say it doesn't exist.

[Jingthing]

Actually, I think you CAN talk about prostitution in some ways. Many examples, you could talk about disease rates and prevention. You could talk about social implications. You can't talk about what bar has the hotties and how much to pay. Get the distinction?

Ian, actually, I don't think you can speak for Wowman. He is his own "man."

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing