Governor Petitioned To Ban The Second Chiang Mai Gay Pride Parade

[Ricardo]

I hope the govenor ban that sh!t!

Erm ... ban a parade, which aims to educate people on an important health-issue, or ban the thugs who broke it up ?

the parade, its so sick

Not that I'm gay myself, or likely would have attended, but I can't see why you would object to part of the local community running an event like this, trying to raise awareness about HIV/AIDS, which is a serious health-problem here in Thailand, for both straights and gays.

Ignoring a problem, or trying to sweep it under-the-carpet, is surely more harmful ? Ignorance kills ! People dying when it's avoidable ... that would be sick.

[Pdaz]

I think Thakkar has a very valid point about acceptance... If you are minority and wish to fit in with the majority you need to adapt.. This doesn't mean that you stop being what you are just that you need to compromise to establish a relationship.. Often once this relationship is established you can reveal more of 'yourself' without fear of a backlash..

Thakkar's example of being an Indian man in a majority Chinese city/state is the perfect example of this..

Predudice is often a product of fear of ignorance.. By highlighting your differance you are more likely to be alienated.. But by playing down your differances and and highlighting your similarities you are far more likely to be accepted..

We have all seen people of immigrant ( of whatever colour/race) stock who have amalgamated into their adopted culture do well.. Witness the black/Asian/Indian news readers on the BBC or the black sporting stars.. Not to mention the new President.. There are Muslims in the House of Lords and People of African origin representing the UK in the Olympics... Why because they did their best to adopt the moors and morals of their new home.... They didn't sell out or relinquish their own culture but just adapted to their new situation.. For their benefit.. The rest who wish to behave exactly as they did before often fall by the wayside or excluded because their way of life seems alien or even objectionable to their 'hosts'

This to me is similar to the 'Gay' situation... If I met a bloke in a pub or was introduced by friends I'd interact as normal and providing we had similar interests we'd probably become friends.. If then I happened to discover he was gay I doubt there would be a problem.. as I had already decided he was a good person... However when I first me the guy he was overtly camp, acted in an overly feminine way, wore make-up or 'made eyes' at other men I doubt any relationship would have gone any further than ''Hello'' ...

Many straight men find overtly gay guys threatening, weird or just un-settling.. They aren't gonna give them a chance .. No matter how much of a decent human they are... So overtly gay parades and overtly gay actions are your own worst enemy.. If you want to be accepted as 'normal' act 'normally' or at least within what most of society would consider acceptable..

Gay parades aren't helping in your acceptance and I'm sure there are many many gay people working away and leading happy lives who don't feel they have to broardcast their sexuality to the World..

Same as with other minorities who have managed to amalgamate into society.. Do you think that they believe that extreamist Muslims, Militant Blacks or even Fundementalist Christians do their image and acceptance into society any favours.. Of course not...

''When in Rome... Do as the Romans do..''

[Jingthing]

Translation of last post as if it was spoken to African Americans 50 years ago:

straighten your hair, whiten your skin, be a "credit to your race" and be prepared to be called an Uncle Tom.

What I find funny is that poster thinks he is being reasonable and almost liberal when actually his thoughts are offensive on so many levels I wouldn't know where to begin.

As a hint, please watch the movie Harvey Milk, about a man I was fortunate enough to meet for a brief moment shortly before he was murdered by a hate mongerer. (Also proud to have been at the riots when his murderer was let off with a tiny sentence.) A key part of his motivation to be the great leader he was, was to make sure homosexuals were VISIBLE for the sake of OTHER GAY people, for that youth who was considering suicide because of family and social pressure. I have read that gay youth suicide rates are also high in Thailand.

(Probably no need to say, but only speaking for myself, as someone who doesn't even believe in the concept of a gay "community")

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

Actually we are not 10 percent. More like 2 or 3 percent, not that it makes any difference. In any case, we are a minority and I don't see why we should have to cower to the whims of violent thugs in red shirts anywhere in the world.

Hmmm, I'm surprised it's such a small number. According to the abbot of a local temple my wife visits, about 30%-40% of Thai Buddhist monks are gay, so whats that leave, 1.5 out of 100 in the general population? Seems like more.

[PeaceBlondie]

Actually, WOWAsia merely offered his personal, possibly biased opinion that the gay parade was sick. I opined about Old Europeans in Pattaya having a sick parade. na? I knew a gay nurse Ph.D. who got sick attempting cunnilingus; he considered that sick. Having said too much against Nigerians here, WOWAsia knows the rules, and is trying to obey them. The moderators, gay and straight, male and female, are watching.

[jdinasia]

Actually we are not 10 percent. More like 2 or 3 percent, not that it makes any difference. In any case, we are a minority and I don't see why we should have to cower to the whims of violent thugs in red shirts anywhere in the world.

Hmmm, I'm surprised it's such a small number. According to the abbot of a local temple my wife visits, about 30%-40% of Thai Buddhist monks are gay, so whats that leave, 1.5 out of 100 in the general population? Seems like more.

7-13% seems to be the real opinion across the board (of people that have sex with their own gender on a regular basis)

[Jingthing]

The USA is a very diverse society and the more recent studies are showing way under 10 percent. The idea of 10 percent was promoted for political reasons in the past but that does not mean it is accurate. Of course, how you define gay is the key. If someone has homosexual sex and doesn't identify that way, who are you to say they are gay? I truly think gay people overestimate our numbers. Why?

recent US census

According to the National Survey of Family Growth, 4.1% of Americans aged 18-45 identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual

Wiki Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

More Wiki?

[Jingthing]

More Wiki?

Beats the "my local monk said" method by a country mile.

Here is another source, they think it is 5 percent for the USA. Again, depends how you define gay. I wouldn't presume to label someone gay if they don't accept the label themselves:

http://www.rockhawk.com/how_many_gay_peopl..._in_america.htm

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

As a Texan now living in Thailand, I would say the West has been so demonically opposed to gays for 1,600 years that folks with gay tendencies repressed them so much. Kinsey primarily studied behavior, not thought. Thailand is sooo gay.

///Added: then again, the Catholic priesthood and Ted Haggard are not 100% straight.

[jdinasia]

More Wiki?

Beats the "my local monk said" method by a country mile.

Here is another source, they think it is 5 percent for the USA. Again, depends how you define gay. I wouldn't presume to label someone gay if they don't accept the label themselves:

http://www.rockhawk.com/how_many_gay_peopl..._in_america.htm

(and no ... actually "my local monk said" is far more reliable than Wiki, since on controversial topics Wiki gets beat up! anyone with an agenda can screw with it!)

The 1993 Janus Report (The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior / Samuel S. Janus and Cynthia L. Janus. Wiley, c1993), the first broad-scale scientific national survey on sexual behavior since Kinsey, concluded that 9% of males and 5% of females had had homosexual experiences more than just "occasionally."

The 1993 Yankelovich Monitor Survey, considered the first nationally representative survey to reflect what percentage of the population identified itself as homosexual, indicated that 5.7% described themselves as "gay/homosexual/lesbian."

I think the Janus report might carry a bit more weight. (and no I don't think it matters if you don't accept the label --- if you are male and mostly/exclusively have sex with men ... you are gay

[Jingthing]

More current reports: five percent. This may be an unknowable. Your sources are very dated back when people believed the 10 percent propaganda. In my recent use of Wiki, it was only a pointer to another source. Much more current than your source.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

LOL, Jing ... you are giving links (that are ripping off other people's work without giving citations)

and no ... 1993 pretty recent and accurate (and you might want to note that your 2-3% has now become 5%)

[Jingthing]

LOL, Jing ... you are giving links (that are ripping off other people's work without giving citations)

and no ... 1993 pretty recent and accurate (and you might want to note that your 2-3% has now become 5%)

Indeed. I reckon you are just a true believer in this 10 percent hogwash and no amount of evidence would persuade you anyway. People believe all kinds of myths. I don't think we have anything extra to fear in being a smaller minority than you think. We will never win any majority votes regardless. 1993 is over 15 years ago!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_...e_United_States

Edited February 25, 2009 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

More Wiki?

Beats the "my local monk said" method by a country mile.

Here is another source, they think it is 5 percent for the USA. Again, depends how you define gay. I wouldn't presume to label someone gay if they don't accept the label themselves:

http://www.rockhawk.com/how_many_gay_peopl..._in_america.htm

Actually, I would have guessed the percentage was higher in the sangha of Thai monks. Most monks can't seem to pass a reflective surface these days without "checking themselves out". Personally, I don't care if monks are gay . straight, or whatever. I do care that they are tending more and more to be self obsessed, from my observations.

[jdinasia]

More wiki!

[IanForbes]

The USA is a very diverse society and the more recent studies are showing way under 10 percent. The idea of 10 percent was promoted for political reasons in the past but that does not mean it is accurate. Of course, how you define gay is the key. If someone has homosexual sex and doesn't identify that way, who are you to say they are gay? I truly think gay people overestimate our numbers. Why?

recent US census

According to the National Survey of Family Growth, 4.1% of Americans aged 18-45 identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual

Wiki

I don't think it really matters what the percentages are so long as somebody doesn't start pressing THEIR life style on someone else in a negative fashion. Who really CARES what consenting adults do or don't do to each other in the confines of their own home? I know several heterosexual couples who haven't had sex in several years. Some people just don't enjoy sex and others have physical disabilities that keeps them from having sex.

I can understand quasi-lesbian relationships where women have had bad experiences with men and are more comfortable with women... even in an intimate manner. They aren't "true" lesbians because they would be more like bi-sexual. I'm certain it could be the same for men. I dunno and I really don't want to know. It's all up to the individual. I don't think anyone wants to know about my sex life either... other than I'm happy with the arrangement. If I'm happy and my partners are happy then that should be all that matters.

[Pdaz]

The USA is a very diverse society and the more recent studies are showing way under 10 percent. The idea of 10 percent was promoted for political reasons in the past but that does not mean it is accurate. Of course, how you define gay is the key. If someone has homosexual sex and doesn't identify that way, who are you to say they are gay? I truly think gay people overestimate our numbers. Why?

recent US census

According to the National Survey of Family Growth, 4.1% of Americans aged 18-45 identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual

Wiki

Why. ? So they can lobby for more 'gay rights'... They are a very small minority but many gays are in positions of influence (media, Govt etc) and they network well at the local sauna... They are constantly in the news and do their best to promote their lifestyle ( gay parades etc.)

Guess by appearing as a larger section of society they hope to be regarded as a normal part of the human existance... No different to any other minority interest lobby.. Higher (perceived) percentages equals more power....

Although you may find my post offensive as an immigrant myself ( In four seperate countries during my life) I know exactly what it is to be an 'outsider' I learnt to do exactly as my post suggested.. Find common ground with my fellow citizens and do my best to accentuate my similarities rather than my differencies..

It worked for me.. Made plenty of lifelong friends and learnt alot about the cultures I was surrounded by.. Proclaiming my heritage and seperating myself from the locals isn't a good way of aclimatising..

As to your post about the blacks in the USA.. Maybe their inability to join mainstream society is the very reason why many have performed so poorly.. Meanwhile more recent immigrants to the USA from South Asia, Asia, Europe and the Middle East have prospered beyond their wildest dreams.... The 3000 Vietnamese boat people who arrived in my community in the late 70's have managed despite little in way of English language skills to start businesses and educate their families... Menawhile down the road many African Americans are still living in the same conditions that they were in the 50's despite affermative action, Racial equality and the such like...

Or better still go and work in Africa and see what lack of co-operation and tribalism can acomplish..

Back on topic.. The militant gays don't do the 'gay community' any favours... Your gay ? So what.!

... I rather like having sex whilst listening to the 1812 overture.. However I don't feel the need to inform eveybody I meet of this certain sexual pecadilo...

If gays just got on with their business they'd have less detractors...

[jdinasia]

lol .. "militant gays" -- I thought that right-wing fear term had died in the 1990's!

[Thakkar]

I think Thakkar has a very valid point about acceptance... If you are minority and wish to fit in with the majority you need to adapt.. This doesn't mean that you stop being what you are just that you need to compromise to establish a relationship.. Often once this relationship is established you can reveal more of 'yourself' without fear of a backlash..

Thakkar's example of being an Indian man in a majority Chinese city/state is the perfect example of this..

Predudice is often a product of fear of ignorance.. By highlighting your differance you are more likely to be alienated.. But by playing down your differances and and highlighting your similarities you are far more likely to be accepted..

We have all seen people of immigrant ( of whatever colour/race) stock who have amalgamated into their adopted culture do well.. Witness the black/Asian/Indian news readers on the BBC or the black sporting stars.. Not to mention the new President.. There are Muslims in the House of Lords and People of African origin representing the UK in the Olympics... Why because they did their best to adopt the moors and morals of their new home.... They didn't sell out or relinquish their own culture but just adapted to their new situation.. For their benefit.. The rest who wish to behave exactly as they did before often fall by the wayside or excluded because their way of life seems alien or even objectionable to their 'hosts'

This to me is similar to the 'Gay' situation... If I met a bloke in a pub or was introduced by friends I'd interact as normal and providing we had similar interests we'd probably become friends.. If then I happened to discover he was gay I doubt there would be a problem.. as I had already decided he was a good person... However when I first me the guy he was overtly camp, acted in an overly feminine way, wore make-up or 'made eyes' at other men I doubt any relationship would have gone any further than ''Hello'' ...

Many straight men find overtly gay guys threatening, weird or just un-settling.. They aren't gonna give them a chance .. No matter how much of a decent human they are... So overtly gay parades and overtly gay actions are your own worst enemy.. If you want to be accepted as 'normal' act 'normally' or at least within what most of society would consider acceptable..

Gay parades aren't helping in your acceptance and I'm sure there are many many gay people working away and leading happy lives who don't feel they have to broardcast their sexuality to the World..

Same as with other minorities who have managed to amalgamate into society.. Do you think that they believe that extreamist Muslims, Militant Blacks or even Fundementalist Christians do their image and acceptance into society any favours.. Of course not...

''When in Rome... Do as the Romans do..''

NO, that wasn't my point at all. Perhaps I wasn't clear. My penultimate and final sentences were meant to convey the notion that *had* there been Indian Pride parades, I would likely have been more myself more often (seeing—in hindsight— as myself is something I prefer to be) because such parades would have helped me be not ashamed of being Indian.

People shouldn't have to smother who they are or behave deceitfully in order to assimilate. Personally, I found that I became happier, had more fulfilling relationships (business, personal and wider social relationships) and slept sounder when, in my twenties, I ceased my pathetic attempts to camouflage who I was.

Granted, I didn't go out of my way to assert my Indianess. Through a series of fortunate events I gained the courage to be myself without needing to be offensive towards anyone else. Not everyone is so lucky and they need help. Besides, Gayness is quite a different kettle of fish and I fear I may be stretching the comparisons.

Perhaps like the Thais UG and I have spoken to, you may have misconstrued the point of a gay pride parade. That's understandable because most of our notions of gay parades come from viewing 50 second news clips of such events where the camera focuses on the most outrageous displays. Pointing a TV camera at the most flamboyant, attention-seeking person in the parade is a sure-fire way to make them behave even more outrageously. The less curious will simply assume that that is what a gay parade is and file that away permanently as their definition. As I understand it, this particular parade was meant to be respectful and well-behaved and from what I've seen of Chiangmai, respectfulness (both in attire and behavior) in public is de reguire here.

Funny you should mention Rome, btw. Homosexuals in ancient Rome were quite unabashed and well accepted. Let's hope modern Chiangmai, or more particularly the Red Shirt Brigade, catches up.

[sriracha john]

A group of 150 People Living With HIV/AIDs and Youth Network activists from 50 countries have condemned Red Shirt protesters for stopping Saturday's Gay Pride Parade in Chiang Mai.

The Nation

[mbincm]

Chiang Mai Red-Shirts Criticized for Shutting Down "Gay Pride" Parade

A gay group's leader, informally known as Gay Natee, resents the Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai's disturbance of the Gay Pride parade this past Saturday. Gay Natee has reiterated that the parade was not connected to politics.

The Gay Political Group of Thailand President Natee Theerarojanaphong, or Gay Natee, expressed resentment about the Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai's shutting down the Gay Pride Parade in Chiang Mai this past February 21st.

Although, Gay Natee himself does not support the Gay Parade as he sees it as inappropriate in a highly-cultured society like Chiang Mai.

However, the President expressed discontent about the way the Red Shirt Group violently disturbed the Gay Parade, using discriminatory slurs and profanity against gays.

Meanwhile, Gay Natee said that the Red Shirt Group's explanation for its disturbance as an expression of opinion is disappointing.

The President said that his expression of opinion against the Gay Pride parade, as well as other issues, has been intended to promote a good society, and that his motives have nothing to do with the yellow shirt group nor Red Shirt Group of Chiang Mai.

- TOC / 2009-02-25

If Gay Natee had not gone to the Authorities, not published in the Thai Press, and not gone on the Television about the monks who behalf inproperly - then the red shirts would not have protested. the red shirt tanoys quoted Gay Natee at the parade. Gay Natee should say sorry to all those Thai organisers who spent months working on this parade. Gay Natee was held in high regard for the amount of good work he did in the past, however - he has lost a great amount of respect.

[Jingthing]

So let me get this straight. People should behave in such a way that doesn't anger the red shirt thugs from acting? I still can't get my head around this one. Are they the local dictators and if so by what authority, why should people accept that? To me this attack on Natee sounds like blaming a victim of a mafia hit on the victim instead of the gangsters.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

The second annual gay pride parade would have been no disgrace for Chiang Mai. It was not going to be the first such parade, nor will it be the last. The big DISGRACE to Lanna culture were the VIOLENT RED SHIRTED THAI THUGS. But we are gentle people in this gentle land, so let us simply remember the names of this group and their murderous leaders.

And let us hope the Thai police in Chiang Mai can do their job. Which reminds me - when those cowardly strong red shirted men killed that old radio station owner last year - have there been arrests and convictions? Gee, even in Texas, the police found and convicted the killers of travnsvestite prostitutes. Can the Chiang Mai police not find Thai murderers?

[Jingthing]

In case you didn't catch this item in the Nation referring to homophobia from BOTH the red shirts and the yellow shirts, worth a read:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1014

More evidence for the fact that Thailand is NOT a paradise for Thai gays, no matter what some rose colored glassed people may think.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

LOL

You mean like all the Thai people that have responded to the threads etc ...

[endure]

In case you didn't catch this item in the Nation referring to homophobia from BOTH the red shirts and the yellow shirts, worth a read:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=1014

More evidence for the fact that Thailand is NOT a paradise for Thai gays, no matter what some rose colored glassed people may think.

Where would you rather live - Thailand or Iran? Nowhere is a PARADISE - some places are better than others.

[Jingthing]

Where would you rather live - Thailand or Iran? Nowhere is a PARADISE - some places are better than others.

Which do you think. What a silly question. Agreed, NOWHERE is a paradise. But just because some farangs with money feel like Thailand is a paradise for THEM does not mean it is a paradise for most Thai gays.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[zulo]

It's ironic that You-Know-Who expressed regret about the Red Shirt violence, when it's reported by Kom Chad Luek newspaper that he actually had phoned into the red-shirt Rak Chiangmai 92.5 radio station to attack the parade just shortly before.

Rough translation: There's a further report that the Rak Chiangmai 51 group made announcement through their 92.5MHz community radio station, inciting people to come out and show their opposition to the parade. They should all assemble first in front of Grand Warorot Hotel where the radio station is based. Moreover, the radio station let people call in to express their opinions. There were more than 200 calls. The DJ also "opened the line" for You-Know-Who – the president of Gay Political Group – who had made clear his opposition to the parade. Natee fiercely attacked the organizers that they are destroying culture and the image of the "third sex".

By the way, when will the media smart up and investigate who else is in this "Gay Political Group" or where its office is? It's all a one-man act. This guy has not done anything for the benefits of Thailand's LGBT community in recent memory, apart from getting the spotlight on himself.

[jdinasia]

Just because some relative newcomer to Thailand that doesn't speak or read Thai, or apparently spend any time talking to Thai gay people makes it out to be hard for Thai gays, also doesn't make it so.

Get to know some people, talk to them, look at the laws, look at the cases of discrimination reported, by comparison to most of the world Thailand is far better than most places, and where it has tough spots are the same areas where there are tough spots and always will be tough spots. Like coming out to the family and dealing with the expectations of family members etc.

Growing up gay is tough, anywhere. But at least here you don't have laws against it or any systemic discrimination.

(and no, one person complaining about a political cartoon is not systemic -- and that the cartoon was meant to be an ironic remark about the Red's complaints about a former general/PM that is gay was the point in that cartoon-- some people are just too sensitive for irony)