<Edit : Bu66er, just realised this is my 4,000th post Well better here than out in General arguing over the financial merits of opening a beer bar in Thailand >

Congrats on your 4,000, and you are right about the merits of posting it here!

Congrats from me, too, Phil!

Phil, I guess you're probably right, and you're more true to the spirit of the original thread... I'm just sorry that what was a more interesting and personal discussion seems to have disappeared in the process... I don't find that anyone really learns much or changes through what I've seen of discussions of affirmative action. It's more like the illusion the rich use to get us to do their dirty work by tearing ourselves apart under the suggestion that there isn't enough money for all of us to get what we need- when in fact, there is enough, it's just in their pockets. But that gets back to economic arguments, which cannot be proven, are only my opinion, etc., etc., etc.

I have found over time that the majority on here who are open to different points of view, do take note.............don't give up.

I have found over time that the majority on here who are open to different points of view, do take note.............don't give up.

SInce this thread started and I started posting, I have had the opportunity to see three examples of gay sexuality/affection on two different media. One was a bar scene on The Wire, and in the background was a very tame depiction of what was supposed to be a porn scene, and one was also on The Wire with two characters kissing. The third was when a Thai woman showed me some photos she got in an e-mail of a gay farang sex party.

I have written before at my unease at such images. However, I really do not know if this discucssion has had anything to do with it, but in The Wire, I felt nothing. No unease at all. For the explicit sex party pics, well, I didn't stay and peruse all of them once I ascertained what they were, but I also did not have a significant unease--I just didn't have the interest to look at them.

Coincidence, retrospect brought on by this thread, or whatever. BUt for the first time in my life, I saw images of two men kissing as lovers might kiss and felt nothing other than what that had to do with the plot.

That's great to hear, Bonobo!

For at least a few years after I had started dating other men, I still cringed or felt strange or self-conscious when I saw images of men kissing in movies or on TV- so even with a gay identity it was a challenge- it must be so much harder for straight men in our society! One of the first gay films I ever saw was Torch Song Trilogy- must have been released way back in the late 80s in the U.S.- it had some lengthy if not terribly passionate kissing between Matthew Broderick and Harvey Fierstein (I don't really blame Matthew if he wasn't into it, if that's not too bitchy for me to say!). Even though I was watching it with a guy I was living with, I felt distinctly queasy at the time. But it was also probably the first time I could recognise that the on-screen images were not 'queasy' in themselves, it was me and my feelings about my own sexuality that made ME queasy about them. Even so, it took a few years- some fun movies- and a growing acceptance of myself for me to relax around these types of images.

I think that the unreality of U.S. culture- the implicit racism and homophobia built into our institutions and our media- stands in tension to the reality and the feelings that most of us experience. The message is sent out that men who have any affection or liking for each other must be 'gay,' which is of course 'bad' for some reason. So men have to go to all kinds of extremes to avoid showing- perhaps even experiencing- affection for each other- ESPECIALLY not touching and not showing emotion. That's not sexual attraction I'm talking about, but affection. It's easy to see where we live now, in Asia, that men don't HAVE to be detached from each other in some dysfunctional macho way. They can like each other and be emotionally supportive without that having any correlation to their sexual orientation.

At the same time, women are sexualised and objectified. There's nearly as much cultural baggage about having real feelings and real emotions towards women- and having relationships with them based on the reality of both persons rather than one's own obsessions and fetishes- as there is about avoiding feelings towards men. You could almost say that American men are not allowed to have real relationships, emotionally, with anyone- if the dominant cultural programming is followed. The stereotype is that women need straight men as lovers, but they need gay men as friends. That's not the way things should be.

I may be way out on a limb, here, Bonobo, but I would guess that as your discomfort at those types of images decreases, what it really means is that you're more and more ready to accept the reality of having real feelings between you and other men, and also women. I think the discomfort is a warning from your cultural programming that you're not falling in line with 'the program' as it applies to maintaining emotional distance from other guys (and emotional delusions towards women). And that's a really great thing for you. How much of an emotional price do guys have to pay for this horrible cultural need to maintain distance from each other, and to maintain distortions of relationships with women?

Great discussion; I hardly know what to add. Okay, my first sexual experience with penetration!

I was 19, the other guy maybe 49, married with kids. We were on a sports car racing weekend together, and he asked to give me my first-ever blow job. I really wanted it, although I did not reciprocate. The second sexual penetration, and the next four or five thousand, started on my wedding night with a big-bosomed blond. It took twenty more years to get my next blow job.

One huge difference, though: at age 19, I did it in Texas, and we were both in the US military, causing us double jeopardy as criminals, although we never got caught. He was about to retire as a lieutenant colonel. My first anal intercourses were also illegal crimes in Texas, as were all the oral sex with men (but not with women). All the way to 1998, so we're talking current history, not ancient. It ain't over till the fat lady sings (a San Antonio invented saying) and the last woman I had sex with must have weighed 245 pounds.

I was never a minority until I became a pacifist Christian, and then became openly gay. Never got a promotion for either one.

It ain't over, even though my ex-wife used to be fat and is from San Antonio.

I suppose in one way the worst part of your first sexual experience was not being able to brag about it in the barracks afterwards.

Seriously though, with the benefit of experience and hindsight, do you thing the guy was wrong? How would you feel if your son was seduced by someone much older and in a position of authority over him? If it comes to that how would you feel if it was your daughter and a man in a similar position?

I must admit if my young son, (but still over the AoC) was seduced by and older woman my reaction would be totally different than if it was an older man and I consider myself to be more liberal minded than most people.

Once again my thoughts are purely theoretical as I have no natural children that I know of.

Great discussion; I hardly know what to add. Okay, my first sexual experience with penetration!

I was 19, the other guy maybe 49, married with kids. We were on a sports car racing weekend together, and he asked to give me my first-ever blow job. I really wanted it, although I did not reciprocate. The second sexual penetration, and the next four or five thousand, started on my wedding night with a big-bosomed blond. It took twenty more years to get my next blow job.

One huge difference, though: at age 19, I did it in Texas, and we were both in the US military, causing us double jeopardy as criminals, although we never got caught. He was about to retire as a lieutenant colonel. My first anal intercourses were also illegal crimes in Texas, as were all the oral sex with men (but not with women). All the way to 1998, so we're talking current history, not ancient. It ain't over till the fat lady sings (a San Antonio invented saying) and the last woman I had sex with must have weighed 245 pounds.

I was never a minority until I became a pacifist Christian, and then became openly gay. Never got a promotion for either one.

It ain't over, even though my ex-wife used to be fat and is from San Antonio.

I have to admit, your first experience made me cringe, but not for the gay aspect of it.

As a soon-to-be-retired colonel in the Marine Reserves, the thought of any officer having sexual relations with a subordinate makes me shudder.  THere is just way too much potential for abuse.  You were evidently consenting, but the I really hold that LtCol in pretty low esteem.

In all the time you were married, did you fantasize about men?  And was your sex with your wife satisfying, or were you merely going through the motions?

That's great to hear, Bonobo!

For at least a few years after I had started dating other men, I still cringed or felt strange or self-conscious when I saw images of men kissing in movies or on TV- so even with a gay identity it was a challenge- it must be so much harder for straight men in our society! One of the first gay films I ever saw was Torch Song Trilogy- must have been released way back in the late 80s in the U.S.- it had some lengthy if not terribly passionate kissing between Matthew Broderick and Harvey Fierstein (I don't really blame Matthew if he wasn't into it, if that's not too bitchy for me to say!). Even though I was watching it with a guy I was living with, I felt distinctly queasy at the time. But it was also probably the first time I could recognise that the on-screen images were not 'queasy' in themselves, it was me and my feelings about my own sexuality that made ME queasy about them. Even so, it took a few years- some fun movies- and a growing acceptance of myself for me to relax around these types of images.

I think that the unreality of U.S. culture- the implicit racism and homophobia built into our institutions and our media- stands in tension to the reality and the feelings that most of us experience. The message is sent out that men who have any affection or liking for each other must be 'gay,' which is of course 'bad' for some reason. So men have to go to all kinds of extremes to avoid showing- perhaps even experiencing- affection for each other- ESPECIALLY not touching and not showing emotion. That's not sexual attraction I'm talking about, but affection. It's easy to see where we live now, in Asia, that men don't HAVE to be detached from each other in some dysfunctional macho way. They can like each other and be emotionally supportive without that having any correlation to their sexual orientation.

At the same time, women are sexualised and objectified. There's nearly as much cultural baggage about having real feelings and real emotions towards women- and having relationships with them based on the reality of both persons rather than one's own obsessions and fetishes- as there is about avoiding feelings towards men. You could almost say that American men are not allowed to have real relationships, emotionally, with anyone- if the dominant cultural programming is followed. The stereotype is that women need straight men as lovers, but they need gay men as friends. That's not the way things should be.

I may be way out on a limb, here, Bonobo, but I would guess that as your discomfort at those types of images decreases, what it really means is that you're more and more ready to accept the reality of having real feelings between you and other men, and also women. I think the discomfort is a warning from your cultural programming that you're not falling in line with 'the program' as it applies to maintaining emotional distance from other guys (and emotional delusions towards women). And that's a really great thing for you. How much of an emotional price do guys have to pay for this horrible cultural need to maintain distance from each other, and to maintain distortions of relationships with women?

Good post.  I do feel the inability to express affection towards men, unless, oddly enough, if it is in a faux adversarial give-and-take.  I have a buddy in the US with whom I can do this.  But I have another friend in the US and one in Thailand with whom I have deep feelings of affection, but I am unable to express that in any way that does not come across as "gay," so I don't. And with both men, I have done my fair share of catting around, so it is not as if any of us thinks the other is actually gay. 

As far as my own feelings on male sexuality, I don't think I have much in the way of that (oddly, though, I have a inkling of attraction to the Rock (the actor).  I have no idea why, and that is not really sexual, but it is there.)  If anyone has followed my posts in the past, I do have a fairly extensive resume, so-to-speak, of sexual adventures.  But even in those, I have avoided male-to-male contact.  For example, I was "given" to a friend's wife as a birthday gift as she had always fantasized about a threesome, and I made sure that the two of us (the men) were at opposite ends of the wife, so-to-speak, at all times.  And I can't do a double pentration, although I have been asked my many women to join in on that.

This could be a mental aversion and shield from what society considers right and wrong, I realize.  But I really don't think, after examining myself, that I have sexual attraction to men.  Sometimes I wish I did.  It would be more in line with my picture of myself as a rational modern man (and it would double my chances of finding someone on any given night!). But right now, I can't.

The guy was not in a position of authority over me. It was two adults consenting to gay sex. I did not get another BJ for twenty years. We both committed serious crimes with double jeopardy. It was the best BJ I ever got until I turned 61. I had consenting gay sex with 18 to 21 year olds who asked for it, after I turned 50, without any exchange of money.

I always enjoyed sex with my wife, even after we divorced. But my fantasies were always gay.

I do not know where we are in this conversation, and I apologize if I upset anybody. I think I said no more than what other people say on these forums (look at the latest 29 y.o. Thai English teacher/13 y.o. Thai guy thread). The main reason I told that story was that we both committed military and civilian crimes that could have put us behind bars. It was still a felony crime in Texas until the late 1990's. It is still cause for discharge from the US Military to even admit you had sex with a man. Compare that to the laws for consenting heterosexual relations.

I suppose in one way the worst part of your first sexual experience was not being able to brag about it in the barracks afterwards.

Seriously though, with the benefit of experience and hindsight, do you thing the guy was wrong? How would you feel if your son was seduced by someone much older and in a position of authority over him? If it comes to that how would you feel if it was your daughter and a man in a similar position?

I must admit if my young son, (but still over the AoC) was seduced by and older woman my reaction would be totally different than if it was an older man and I consider myself to be more liberal minded than most people.

Once again my thoughts are purely theoretical as I have no natural children that I know of.

My chances of having children are largely theoretical, too! But I wanted to think about your question.

I would really, really hope- that somehow I could raise whatever children I may have to know that I would love them no matter who they brought home and who they felt attracted to- and that with this knowledge they could somehow make their choices of partners without guilt, or repression. In that sense, they would start their sexual lives with a certain amount of responsibility of their own, and I would make it clear that it was up to them to choose wisely starting at the legal age. After that, it's up to them to learn on their own- and as long as things are consensual, it's none of my business unless they want to tell or ask me about it.

That applies mainly the age difference question. If there were evidence of sexual harassment or abuse of authority, I would of course support my children in any actions they took against the person involved, if that's what they thought was the right thing to do. The hard part is raising them so they have a good sense of what the right thing to do is.

Good post.  I do feel the inability to express affection towards men, unless, oddly enough, if it is in a faux adversarial give-and-take.  I have a buddy in the US with whom I can do this.  But I have another friend in the US and one in Thailand with whom I have deep feelings of affection, but I am unable to express that in any way that does not come across as "gay," so I don't. And with both men, I have done my fair share of catting around, so it is not as if any of us thinks the other is actually gay. 

This is how our programming robs us- even if you're ready to move on, you don't know how the other guy is going to feel so you feel restrained to the old detachment.

Interestingly, it is often gays who are more sensitive about interactions with straight guys because we're worried about how they will take it. One straight friend of mine was the one who initiated friendly hugs between us, to let me know it was ok!

As far as my own feelings on male sexuality, I don't think I have much in the way of that (oddly, though, I have a inkling of attraction to the Rock (the actor).  I have no idea why, and that is not really sexual, but it is there.)  If anyone has followed my posts in the past, I do have a fairly extensive resume, so-to-speak, of sexual adventures.  But even in those, I have avoided male-to-male contact.  For example, I was "given" to a friend's wife as a birthday gift as she had always fantasized about a threesome, and I made sure that the two of us (the men) were at opposite ends of the wife, so-to-speak, at all times.  And I can't do a double pentration, although I have been asked my many women to join in on that.

You don't sound like someone who is really interested in other guys, and that's fine (the Rock leaves me cold, personally, though I've enjoyed some of his films and I like his sense of humour). I like Kinsey's scale model of sexuality- some people really are completely homosexual, and some really are completely heterosexual, even though most people fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. The key, I think, is to be aware of who you really are and not to be insecure and in denial about your feelings, and I don't see any sign of that with you.

This could be a mental aversion and shield from what society considers right and wrong, I realize.  But I really don't think, after examining myself, that I have sexual attraction to men.  Sometimes I wish I did.  It would be more in line with my picture of myself as a rational modern man (and it would double my chances of finding someone on any given night!). But right now, I can't.

It's quite likely you aren't really attracted to men- many men aren't. I often find women attractive, but I don't want romantic relationships with them anymore- tried it before and it really doesn't do the same physical or emotional things for me. When I was much younger and more immature, I often wished I was straighter- it's an easier road, though maybe in some ways less personally rewarding- now I'm so glad I'm gay. I would say that it would do more than double your chances, because men are often a bit (*ahem*) easier in that department than women... Plus we know what certain, um, actions actually feel like, so who's going to be more expert?

You sound like a remarkably emotionally and mentally healthy guy for a fellow American, and it seems like you're getting better as you go along. I'm so pleased to be having this conversation with you.

The guy was not in a position of authority over me. It was two adults consenting to gay sex. I did not get another BJ for twenty years. We both committed serious crimes with double jeopardy. It was the best BJ I ever got until I turned 61. I had consenting gay sex with 18 to 21 year olds who asked for it, after I turned 50, without any exchange of money.

I always enjoyed sex with my wife, even after we divorced. But my fantasies were always gay.

I do not know where we are in this conversation, and I apologize if I upset anybody. I think I said no more than what other people say on these forums (look at the latest 29 y.o. Thai English teacher/13 y.o. Thai guy thread). The main reason I told that story was that we both committed military and civilian crimes that could have put us behind bars. It was still a felony crime in Texas until the late 1990's. It is still cause for discharge from the US Military to even admit you had sex with a man. Compare that to the laws for consenting heterosexual relations.

If I hadn't escaped my hometown I don't know what would have happened to me- I suspect I would have wound up with a drug problem, a drinking problem, a sexual problem, or all three. And it was only possible for me to have that much insight to get the H*LL out of there when I graduated from high school (and still had never been told by any responsible adult about what 'gay' even meant, much less that it could be ok) because things were slightly more open in my generation and I did some drabs of information. PB, given your years of sacrifice to straightness, I am so glad you have had this time to indulge your real self as well.

The guy was not in a position of authority over me. It was two adults consenting to gay sex. I did not get another BJ for twenty years. We both committed serious crimes with double jeopardy. It was the best BJ I ever got until I turned 61. I had consenting gay sex with 18 to 21 year olds who asked for it, after I turned 50, without any exchange of money.

I always enjoyed sex with my wife, even after we divorced. But my fantasies were always gay.

I do not know where we are in this conversation, and I apologize if I upset anybody. I think I said no more than what other people say on these forums (look at the latest 29 y.o. Thai English teacher/13 y.o. Thai guy thread). The main reason I told that story was that we both committed military and civilian crimes that could have put us behind bars. It was still a felony crime in Texas until the late 1990's. It is still cause for discharge from the US Military to even admit you had sex with a man. Compare that to the laws for consenting heterosexual relations.

You certainly never upset me PB, let me assure you that I thought your post was quite relevant to the topic and I was curious about a couple of aspects of your experience.

I'm still not sure how you can say that your "partner in crime" wasn't in a position of authority over you, unless at 19 you were the oldest lieutenant colonel in the US forces.

The guy was not in a position of authority over me. It was two adults consenting to gay sex. I did not get another BJ for twenty years. We both committed serious crimes with double jeopardy. It was the best BJ I ever got until I turned 61. I had consenting gay sex with 18 to 21 year olds who asked for it, after I turned 50, without any exchange of money.

I always enjoyed sex with my wife, even after we divorced. But my fantasies were always gay.

I do not know where we are in this conversation, and I apologize if I upset anybody. I think I said no more than what other people say on these forums (look at the latest 29 y.o. Thai English teacher/13 y.o. Thai guy thread). The main reason I told that story was that we both committed military and civilian crimes that could have put us behind bars. It was still a felony crime in Texas until the late 1990's. It is still cause for discharge from the US Military to even admit you had sex with a man. Compare that to the laws for consenting heterosexual relations.

Don't apologize with any post here! This has been a most illuminating thread, and I appreciate everyone's input. It is helping me to understand myself better. This is Outside The Box, after all, and your post is entirely appropriate.

I am, however, pretty set in my ways about military protocol. As a colonel, I have had some opportunities which I refused to take as even if we were not in the chain of command, rank does have automatic authority, especially in the Marines. An older man and a younger man are fine (I am 51, and I have had sex with 18-year-olds on occassion.) When I was a lieutenant, I did spend a weekend with an Air Force major I met on a MAC flight. And as a major, I spent a weekend with a lieutenant colonel at the Hale Koa. So I have gone up in rank. And I have had sex with people of the same rank.But never with women of subordinate ranks.

I am not sure about the Air Force, but in the Marines, and Navy, come to think of it, hetrosexual relations between people of different ranks is cause for discharge of the senior member. In the Mariens, id does not even have to be between two people of the same command.

This is how our programming robs us- even if you're ready to move on, you don't know how the other guy is going to feel so you feel restrained to the old detachment.

Interestingly, it is often gays who are more sensitive about interactions with straight guys because we're worried about how they will take it. One straight friend of mine was the one who initiated friendly hugs between us, to let me know it was ok!

Never thought about that, but it makes sense!

It's quite likely you aren't really attracted to men- many men aren't. I often find women attractive, but I don't want romantic relationships with them anymore- tried it before and it really doesn't do the same physical or emotional things for me. When I was much younger and more immature, I often wished I was straighter- it's an easier road, though maybe in some ways less personally rewarding- now I'm so glad I'm gay. I would say that it would do more than double your chances, because men are often a bit (*ahem*) easier in that department than women... Plus we know what certain, um, actions actually feel like, so who's going to be more expert?

Oh, this is exactly the point made when discussing this very thing with some gay friends. And you know what? It is completely logical.

You sound like a remarkably emotionally and mentally healthy guy for a fellow American, and it seems like you're getting better as you go along. I'm so pleased to be having this conversation with you.

THanks, and the feeling is mutual.

Since bonobo has raised the rank issue, I should clarify. When we had sex, I was an E-2 and the other guy was an E-6 who was eligible to retire as a Lt. Colonel. I had just assumed a position as an instructor at the medical school, and he was in charge of the training dept, with no military employees. As such, he had no power over me. We were just too horny bisexual blokes alone in a hotel room. Later I was propositioned by another airman, who later shacked up with a guy in my training unit after their enlistments ended.

So, whilst we're talking amongst the lads, what if I had to do it all over again, knowing what I know now? I would have had gay sex at 12 or 13 with my friend who wanted it. And evermore. I would never had a wife, six kids, 11 grandkids. But heck, we're talking about 1955.... Brokeback Mountain showed what it was like in the 1960's...deadly!