Illegal To Use Thai Spouse As Nominee In Land Ownership

[NanLaew]

Land purchase through Thai spouse forbidden: Land Dept

As for foreigners seeking to buy homes in Phuket, they can do so through the Condominium Act, which allows foreign ownership of up to 49% of any project, he said.

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, however.

“If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds,” he said.

Hmmm.... I can hear the sounds of thousands of foreigners <deleted> puckering at this.

You'll note the use of the term "nominee" in this article. A nominee is not the real owner, just a temporary holder. This is not the case with most wives.

Loaning or giving your wife money to purchase property is COMPLETELY LEGAL in Thailand according to every major law firm here. Worry not I think.

Did you note that there's a whole lot of other words apart from just the term nominee in what Mr. Anuwat is saying. Note the specific opening reference to the condominium law which infers this is the ONLY legal route for ANY foreign land tenure. By the same token, since when has anything ever been stated as COMPLETELY LEGAL in this land of double standards against their own never mind against the minority foreign population?

I just went through this with my Thai wife. She has my last name....

It was required for me to sign a document for each Chanote that the money used was her money independent of my money. (We had 4 pieces of property).

If she has never changed her name, and but is in fact married, the transfer is illegal by the rules. If she is married and says she is married, but still uses her Thai last name, the assumption is she is married to a Thai, and may not be asked for this document from her husband.

I know many Thai, that do not declare there married status. However, they can find problems if they have relatives that care to stir things up.

The one advantage to declaring a marriage to a farang, if something should happen title will pass to the farang, but he must sell within 6 months.

If she says she is single, dies, then title passes to all the Thai relatives, not to the unknown spouse.

There must be THOUSANDS of these "little white lie" affidavits on file in land offices from Phuket to Nong Khai. The fact is Mr. Anuwats' very office insists that these become a legally binding part of any land transaction where one of the partners is non-Thai but the registrant has a non-Thai name. All very convenient and all very circumspect in any court of law.... except a Thai one.

Maybe the prospective foreign marital partner should simply change their name to a Thai one before they marry and then be "assumed" to be a Thai and fly completely below the radar.... until the next pontificating bunch of arse from Bangkok descends on the provinces, making verbal edicts that somehow get construed as THE law.

Never forget that Thailand is for the Thai... it's in the national anthem and foreigners who chose to ignore this really shouldn't be looking at 'investing' in property here. Holiday home, family home, retirement home...? Come on down! We have many novel ways of wresting it from your wizened fingers anyway. But buying to merely MAKE MONEY? How rude! Shame on you!

Now, after the revolution, things will be much better, much more cut and dried. Very Burmese. Until then....

[NanLaew]

I'm very much interested inthis idea of kids (with Thai pasport) taking the title deed, or at least having it put in trust for them. I can't find any threads on this matter though. Can anyone help me out with this please.

PS, my half Thai son is only 3 at the moment!

My understanding is that any land/property in trust to your infant son cannot be developed or traded until he turns 18. Only after that point will you be 100% exposed to the risk of losing the lot.

[anon467367354]

what this says to me is, that the wife has little or no rights when it comes to what is considered property. Legally in developed countries, the 50/50 ownership comes into play only when there is a separation and division of assets. I would think otherwise everything is "in union" and considered one. The Thai culture must deem the woman not worthy of any ownership, and what the husband makes is his to spend on whatever or whoever he wishes. Money loaned is done with friends, colleagues, for business etc, but certainly not for a spouse, for that would demean the integrity of the relationship. Are they saying that all those women that marry foreigners that have the money to buy Thai products, and give the Thai people work building a new home cannot, because they didn't earn the right to a nicer home? This whole issue doesn't make sense, it's like the Jerry Springer Thai government show, shock and awe, topped with <deleted>!

[personchester]

The whole thing as outlined in the report makes no sense, the name on the deeds denotes the owner, property owned as a nominee requires an additional contract in order to protect the fund provider, and since nominee ownership regarding foreigners is illegal in Thailand then this is not an issue here, the owner (as stated on the deeds) is the owner, and the owner alone, no more no less.

However, in the event of the money coming from criminal activities or money laundering then of course chanots can be cancelled and rescinded.

But one has to ask the question why this issue is raised, Thai women are Thai citizen, so why are they discriminated against, moreover, what is the disadvantage for Thailand if property is owned by women as opposed by men ? ...

According to the report funds given as "gifts" by foreigners are not acceptable, again one has to ask the question "why" a gift belongs to the receiver, and he/she can do what they want to do, including buying property.

Perhaps the civil servant in question can clarify this.

[NanLaew]

excuse my french but THAI PEOPLE ARE F*CKING DUMB RACIST A**HOLES

so it is not enough that you can lose your life savings by trusting your wife in buying a house with YOUR MONEY on her name, but now they can even revoke, I guess even without paying you back or giving you nickels on a dollar for the value of the purchased house...

full crisis, thousands of people laid off and Thailand comes with this new brilliant solution to cut even deeper or shoot not in one footh but in both and arms also...

just my 2 cents...

Oooo... easy there tiger. That kinda talk will get you a spanking. Better go get yourself a six-pack of jai yen-yen.... laew-laew.

[NanLaew]

Perhaps the civil servant in question can clarify this.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. There's a term for these types that come in from 'head-office', sh!t all over everything and then fly back to the home roost. Mind you, these turkeys usually don't make specific threats unless there's something under their skin.

Maybe, just maybe there's a whole lot of... NOMINEE WIVES IN PHUKET? Now that is a Gerry Springer does Thailand 'shock & awe' type story. With all those high-end developments, maybe there's a whole lot of wives IN NAME ONLY, either the spawn from (or already happily married to) local puyai's and policemen (most likely) who 'facilitate' the rich and greedy property developers need to appear legal (married) and above board.

So all you Henry's and John's happily married in the boonies with your Lek's and Noi's can breath easy again.

...but that was close!

[SMEEERE]

Perhaps this is what all the property being built is about, they want foreigners to rent off THAIS !.,what about if the thai wife inherited the money from a foreign mother in law or similar, is that still considered not to be hers ?.this sort of law ( imo ) only compounds that thais are paranoud that foreigners will make money here and that they want any money coming to thailand to stay put,.anyone that thinks different is in for a shock i feel,.

[roatandon]

I think he's talking out of his arse. Typical non-sensicle statement that you can always count on a high-level Thai civil servant to make on most occasions. I agree, it should do wonders to help slag-off all the million dollar "villas" for sale to silly foreigners who were thinking about buying in Phuket.

With unintellegent fools like this in high office, its no wonder that Thailand is slowly going downhill. And although its only my guess, i bet that he is of Chinese decent ?????

give enough money to family for sin sod when marrying, then family can give the money, and purchase the land...you cannot win here in thailand if your farang, it just rarely ever happens..

[SMEEERE]

what this says to me is, that the wife has little or no rights when it comes to what is considered property. Legally in developed countries, the 50/50 ownership comes into play only when there is a separation and division of assets. I would think otherwise everything is "in union" and considered one. The Thai culture must deem the woman not worthy of any ownership, and what the husband makes is his to spend on whatever or whoever he wishes. Money loaned is done with friends, colleagues, for business etc, but certainly not for a spouse, for that would demean the integrity of the relationship. Are they saying that all those women that marry foreigners that have the money to buy Thai products, and give the Thai people work building a new home cannot, because they didn't earn the right to a nicer home? This whole issue doesn't make sense, it's like the Jerry Springer Thai government show, shock and awe, topped with <deleted>!

Maybe they are fed up of being "piggy in the middle " when the farang husband is jumping up and down demanding 50 per cent of his home when the marriage goes tits up .this rule will eliminate that as the foreigner cant be part owner .how long have some of you been here ,? and you still cant see how this country works, absolutly nothing surprises me in thailand anymore, Edited May 28, 2009 by SMEEERE

[personchester]

This is way overboard. So, supposing my wife is a house wife (which she currently is as we have a little one), I receive my salary from the Thai government, does this mean she is not entitled to buy a house with our family income?

What I really want is the same rights as a foreign woman that marries a Thai man!

You are wrong to refer to "your" income as a "family" income, the income is earned by you (not your family) should your wife have a job and you added her wages to your income then this would be the family income, in other words your income is farang income and according to the report is classified as such, should it ever become an issue.

[grantbkk]

The Land Department Director found that it was his turn to issue a press release in conjunction with the very important "dress code" check at the Land Office. He is just not any political hack he is a hack with experience in his field of corruption expertise. He knows the system and knows that are about twice as many deeds as there are properties in the Phuket Land Office.

I wouldn't worry about this release of drivel by this low level political appointee who is essentially rattling his plastic saber to grab some attention for a day. He is actually required to do a once or twice a year blurting of anything to justify his existence. He will very quickly fade and it will be business as usual for the nominee crowd.

I once asked a highly placed estate agent operating in Phuket selling high-end resort properties how his company could continue to sell million Dollar properties in Phuket will all the deed and nominee controversies? He explained to me that as long as the system allowed these insane deals to fly and people put up the cash there would be someone in place to make the sale. No one is going to turn down the money involved at every level of the transaction. Eventually sometime down the road the deeds will have to be sorted out but not anytime soon.

[NinjaGladiator]

I understood that the Foreign spouse cannot lay claim to the property, ie. when the Thai spouse purchases, she simply signs a declaration saying the money is hers and her spouse has no claim. I think the foreign spouse is also suppose to sign, the probelm is the LO haven't been doing their paper work, and more and more lawyers are winning court cases for the Foreign spouse in divorce settlements, ie. if that document was not completed, the wife is forced to sell the property and hand over between 50-100% (yes sometimes 100%). As long as the relationship doesn't go T!Ts-up then the Thai spouse is free to hold and sell the property and as a couple you are free to do what you like with the proceeds.

On another note, if you have been together X number of years and property is only worth Y million baht, it's probably justifiable to give it all to her anyway, it's simple arithmatic, how much wealth have you accumilated since being together divided by TWO (under UK law they don't concider income during time-period, only accumilated wealth - but they also concider time-period from the moment you shack-up, not marry), so apply UK rules to the arithmatic and see how much out of pocket you would be.

If X is too small and Y is too big, then you can only hope that she is honest and fair and will settle on this basis. Obviously this is a lot harder to justify with Retirees as the pension shrinks at a daily rate, so there is no accumilated wealth.

[brahmburgers]

the gov't official's statement is hot air and won't hold up. If the gov't decided to be vindictive (a la Zimbabwe) they might screw up a few farang (perhaps against some undesirable characters -according to subjective/vindictive criteria), but the vast majority of farang married to Thais will be safe. There are a host of ways to cushion against this ridiculous proclamation.

There's also the 'yellow book' 'tambian ban' option that might suit some, which is house registration booklet for farang (tambian ban booklet for Thai nationals is blue). I'm in the process of getting one for my house (non-titled), and thus far the process has been relatively painless. It appears to work on the premise that, although farang cannot own the property itself in his name, he can own the improvements upon the land, i.e. the house - in his name ....or at least have it registered in his name (not sure whether that counts as outright full ownership).

[Slaughterhouse]

This is just stupid. My wife and I have bought several plots of Land and house for our family residence. With each purchase I being the foreginer and recognized as the money earner signed a Land department form stating simply I was the money earner and would cover any debts on the land. Basically I became the offically registered guarantor of each property and our home.

Does the Governor of Phuket think that he will revoke my property and take the house out from beneith my Children all borne in local hospitals? Doubt it. He'll make him self look like a complete ass in the court of public opinion then a Thai solution let;s look the other way will be invoked, they will probably push to enjoy some "tea' with me which I won't serve. Then at that point hopefully he will go away back to his fishing village.

[SMEEERE]

The Land Department Director found that it was his turn to issue a press release in conjunction with the very important "dress code" check at the Land Office. He is just not any political hack he is a hack with experience in his field of corruption expertise. He knows the system and knows that are about twice as many deeds as there are properties in the Phuket Land Office.

I wouldn't worry about this release of drivel by this low level political appointee who is essentially rattling his plastic saber to grab some attention for a day. He is actually required to do a once or twice a year blurting of anything to justify his existence. He will very quickly fade and it will be business as usual for the nominee crowd.

I once asked a highly placed estate agent operating in Phuket selling high-end resort properties how his company could continue to sell million Dollar properties in Phuket will all the deed and nominee controversies? He explained to me that as long as the system allowed these insane deals to fly and people put up the cash there would be someone in place to make the sale. No one is going to turn down the money involved at every level of the transaction. Eventually sometime down the road the deeds will have to be sorted out but not anytime soon.

"I once asked a highly placed estate agent operating in Phuket selling high-end resort properties" . ,Well, did you consider that he would give you an unbiased .truthful answer ?. .i see this no different to the police stopping harleys and expensive bikes and checking the books, its a revenue maker and to scare off any attemps by non thai dealers to make money,.parts of thailands new clean up the foreigner campaign,. Edited May 28, 2009 by SMEEERE

[Scott]

Land ownership is a sensitive issue in a lot of countries; just look at Latin America and Zimbabwe.

This statement is coming from Somewhere and it's directed at Someone. Maybe people buying large am'ts of land?

[hhiser]

I just feel sorry for the few unlucky saps they will try to enforce this law against. Yeah sure it will go away, for now, shelved until another Thai official/organization feels they need the increase in revenue. It is curious that this came up on a trip to Phuket. Maybe they are planning to remove some luckless souls from their prime real estate!

[goatfarmer]

To be honest I wouldn't take this statement too seriously - He is probably correctly stating the law - but whether it is enforced is another thing and there seem to be ways of getting around laws if one seeks good advice - and the courts in Thailand are not know for quick resolutions of any case - So i think continue as before .

This should be the last word on this thread.

[Rainmon]

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-05-27

This will save big money for the guys that fall in love and buy a home for the "Thai wife" good idea!! Now she will have to figure a new way to unlock that big farlang bank account, really messed up a sweet deal for the Thai girls; Marry someone with a 30 year age differece younger that speaks a different language; how bout I buy you a multi million baht house and because you,re my new darling wife (that I have known for 6 weeks) that I love and trust I will put it in your name...

...and for this guy getting the land office to speed up the transactions (that should only take a day instead of a year), is he going to pay the "extra fees" to get this done? or raise their salaries, LOL good luck!

[dtag]

Maybe unenforceable (or no one will bother) but this is another example of the steady escalation of anti-farang laws. From the 15 day visa change to this, it becoming obvious that chasing away farang has become an official policy. With the economic downturn that is only just starting to hit home there will be more of this in the near future. I and others have also noticed an increased hostility to farang in day to day life over the last few months.

Good advice to anyone- if you have not tied yourself down here with wife/kids or investment- get out as soon as possible. The writing is on the wall - a society that rarely (if ever) can blame itself for causing any of its own problems, an increase in laws to inconvience foreigners, a major economic downturn and a culture based heavily on seeing fareng as less than Thai in every way

If the worst thing that happens to farang is that the just lose all their land property, I will actually be relieved. We've already seen several mysterious farang businessmen deaths.

As hard times hit home- who will be the scapegoat? You think any new Prime Minister or royalty that take charge will blame Thais or the government fo their own plight?

Thailand is not the only place to enjoy life as an expat - other places allow you to own property, a have visas that last months or years, and don't have a moral code that sees taking everything you can from foriegners as noble act.

We're not wanted or respected here, why should any farang stay?

[bluesmith]

Sorry folks I am a bit slow here. I am married to a Thai she uses my surname. We have had a joint bank account years. The house was brought before we were married in her maiden name. She has changed it in to her married surname. Is this Illegal or not or only for new land property purchase. Some body better tell this person we only do things like this on april 1st.

Think what would happen if so all the realestate companys out of work 2 house propertys will come down in price not a bad thing as the are 2 high now and as 1 chap said about the bars all over the place. no more retirement visa and type o visa money tied up in banks. But just shows you guys that the laws can change in this joint like the wind.

The only sure thing in our name is our passport.

[hansnl]

And another nail in the coffin of Thai tourism?

This rule was enforced strictly in some land offices by signing a declaration that the money to buy the land was from the Thai national already.

Other land offices were not so strict.

To change of ownership of the land to your wife needs to take maybe 20 minutes.

If it takes longer, well, maybe there is some need for..........

It is a shame that Thailand thinks it must do to keep foreign ownership of land impossible.

What is the problem?

If the state wants to take back the land from a foreigner, well, what will stop them.

In fact, in most countries ownership of land by foreigners is possible, while there is always a law, somewhere, to take back ownership of land from anybody for any reason, so what should be the problem.

[marsteele]

Next time over there, withdraw every baht from her accounts, burn the bankbooks and open a new account at a different bank.

Anybody who already "owns" land through the spouse has a better idea how to beat the system? How else can they proof that the money used to purchase the land came from you and wasn't legitimately earned by your Tirak?

I guess they will check the thai womans tax records, if she is employed and earning 10,000 baht per month which is about the average income then how can she afford to buy an average home valued at 2 mil baht with morgage of around 10,000 baht per month. Where did she get this extra income? From that bloody farang husband of hers the swine. I guess if she pays tax on the money (Family income) that she gets from her husband then it would all be legal...

[Pierrot]

Perhaps this is what all the property being built is about, they want foreigners to rent off THAIS !.,what about if the thai wife inherited the money from a foreign mother in law or similar, is that still considered not to be hers ?.this sort of law ( imo ) only compounds that thais are paranoud that foreigners will make money here and that they want any money coming to thailand to stay put,.anyone that thinks different is in for a shock i feel,.

You're absolutely right, the whole economy is based on that. Unless a dramatic change in the government, foreigners will never be allowed to own anything in Thailand.

From the Financial Times :

"Thailand produced few truly world-class companies. It remained, by and large, a rentier economy, funded by foreign capital and driven by foreign expertise" If they sell their land, what will be left for them ?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ebf80c58-34ed-11...144feabdc0.html

[asiawatcher]

Of course - incorporation of a Thai company is a way - can be done for around 6,000 Baht at the Govt Office (not by any Law Office at 20,000+) and by the 'rules' a US company can own 100% of a Thai company by the Amity Treaty so add the cost of a Nevada company. Then you can put the Thai wife on the Thai company as one of the seven shareholders in whatever name you want and no issue. You just have the ongoing maintenance of a company in Thailand (allow about Baht 10k a month including accounting and Audit). Cheaper than body corporate fees in Western countries.

[lizardofoz]

A fine example of Thailand ignoring its own laws until it has enough flies in the web, then sudden enforcement .

It's time to say ....Sayanaro to foreign investment

Maybe a good time to start marrying Katoeys or blokes!!

May as well as per this guys statement you are taking it up the arse anyway.

Do they allow same sex or nearly the same sex marriages ( Katoeys depending on the chop and how well the plastic surgery went??!!! )

They only seem to pick on the Thai wife situation never the Thai male marrying a foreign wife who has money!!

Seems like a case of another idiot trying to make a name for himself and impressing the Thai onlookers and leaving the local province to deal with the backlash while he sits in his Bangkok office.

[asiawatcher]

Perhaps this is what all the property being built is about, they want foreigners to rent off THAIS !.,what about if the thai wife inherited the money from a foreign mother in law or similar, is that still considered not to be hers ?.this sort of law ( imo ) only compounds that thais are paranoud that foreigners will make money here and that they want any money coming to thailand to stay put,.anyone that thinks different is in for a shock i feel,.

You're absolutely right, the whole economy is based on that. Unless a dramatic change in the government, foreigners will never be allowed to own anything in Thailand.

From the Financial Times :

"Thailand produced few truly world-class companies. It remained, by and large, a rentier economy, funded by foreign capital and driven by foreign expertise" If they sell their land, what will be left for them ?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ebf80c58-34ed-11...144feabdc0.html

Maybe the Financial Times needs to look again at the number of companies in Thailand who make the top 100 and in the Fortune 500. Per capita they are not doing too badly! But correct - wealth and status does not make a 'world-class' company.

[marsteele]

Sorry folks I am a bit slow here. I am married to a Thai she uses my surname. We have had a joint bank account years. The house was brought before we were married in her maiden name. She has changed it in to her married surname. Is this Illegal or not or only for new land property purchase. Some body better tell this person we only do things like this on april 1st.

Think what would happen if so all the realestate companys out of work 2 house propertys will come down in price not a bad thing as the are 2 high now and as 1 chap said about the bars all over the place. no more retirement visa and type o visa money tied up in banks. But just shows you guys that the laws can change in this joint like the wind.

The only sure thing in our name is our passport.

We were considering buying some land in my sons name purely for investment for his future. He has my family name (farang) and holds dual thai/aust citizenship. Is he considered to be thai or farang for the purpose of owning land. Later in life if he went to work or study in aust for a few years I am concerned that by thai law he would then be considered to be farang and any land owned by him would be confiscated by the government. What would happen to this land then? Would it be purchased at a ridiculously reduced price by some thai government official who would then make huge personal profits.

[bernardthailand]

then what about the money from sinsot if any ?

I think if the law is really so, maybe a million of girlfriend and wife (or more) can loose his property in Thailand.

[NanLaew]

Maybe the Financial Times needs to look again at the number of companies in Thailand who make the top 100 and in the Fortune 500. Per capita they are not doing too badly! But correct - wealth and status does not make a 'world-class' company.

Dear Asiawatcher,

Let's save time here. Can you provide "the number of companies in Thailand who make the top 100 and in the Fortune 500"?

Yours in anticipation.