Settlement Visa, Waited 10 Weeks Then Refusal

[Brandx]

Hi guys, 1st post.

We've been waiting 10 weeks for my wife's settlement visa to UK and got a refusal yesterday.

Thought we had everything covered, good history, 4 successful visitor visas and a family visit.

We got married last November officially in Bangrak.

My wife got a call from the consulate 2 weeks ago and asked her to fax (yes fax) a copy of her divorce paper and my payslips. We did this no problem.

Next thing we get the refusal based on the fact that she had failed to provide evidence that her previous marriage had been dissolved, the guy admitted having the fax but said he could not conclusively verify whether she was genuinely free to marry her sponsor (me). He said it would have been reasonable to supply the original copy of the document!! But they asked for a fax, if they had said 2 weeks ago they wanted the original then we would have complied.

Does anybody out there also think this is a crazy decision? After all we have a genuine marriage certificate (which they have the original). Bangrak wouldn't have allowed us to get married if we had not verified our previous marital status.

Are we a victim of quotas?

Gutted

[Boo]

wow, if it is as you said then I think you have a good case for appeal but I personally would be calling the embassy & demanding to speak with another eco as refusing her via on the basis of not being able to prove the prior married has been dissolved when she is already legally re-married to you is just ridiculous.

I would start calling. Good luck.

[CharlieB]

wow, if it is as you said then I think you have a good case for appeal but I personally would be calling the embassy & demanding to speak with another eco as refusing her via on the basis of not being able to prove the prior married has been dissolved when she is already legally re-married to you is just ridiculous.

I would start calling. Good luck.

I agree. You need to contact the embassy and get them to re-evaluate your case. This is a stupid reason to refuse when they have faxed proof of her previous divorce. If you are quick you may get them to change the decision. You can appeal, but it's a long process and can take many months. You need to state that they asked for it to be faxed. If they had asked for the original you would have supplied it with no problem. Best of luck.

[Boo]

yep, totally get on the phone & don't give up till you speak to an ECO. My mate had this with her bf's vv, they refused it for some stupid reason, she called & got on their case non stop till they issued it & admitted their error. She then did similar recently, the VFS refused to admit that he could apply directly for ILE (due to length of relationship) so she got on the phone & did the same till she talked to an ECO to confirm he could.

[ubonjoe]

Does anybody out there also think this is a crazy decision? After all we have a genuine marriage certificate (which they have the original). Bangrak wouldn't have allowed us to get married if we had not verified our previous marital status.

Agree

It is a clear indication that the officer dosn't have a clue on how the Thai record keeping system works. You never would of gotten married if she still was married.

Send email, fax and phone calls until you get a response.

They should change their decision.

[theoldgit]

Don't speak to another ECO ask to speak to the ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) go through the facts and say that you think that a mistake has been made and request that they review the decision.

Good luck

[Brandx]

Don't speak to another ECO ask to speak to the ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) go through the facts and say that you think that a mistake has been made and request that they review the decision.

Good luck

I sent them a polite fax yesterday pointing out the error, but as for speaking to the ECM, how would I go about doing that? Are their telephone numbers listed somewhere?

My agent is submitting the appeal today with the original of the divorce paper. I'll send another fax later.

Thanks for your support.

[kennkate]

It's bad enough waiting 10 weeks to get a refusal on a Technicality

I do belive it will be OK now you have submited the original

They dont have an excuse now you have addresed the problem

Good Luck.

[theoldgit]

Don't speak to another ECO ask to speak to the ECM (Entry Clearance Manager) go through the facts and say that you think that a mistake has been made and request that they review the decision.

I sent them a polite fax yesterday pointing out the error, but as for speaking to the ECM, how would I go about doing that? Are their telephone numbers listed somewhere?

My agent is submitting the appeal today with the original of the divorce paper. I'll send another fax later.

I would phone the Embassy and ask to speak to either The Second Secretary (Head of Visa Section) or The Second Secretary (Immigration) who is the ECM, their names are in the public domain in case they ask, they are listed on The Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. http://122.0.2.102/protocol/list_detail.as...e_code=13430001

Try and get through to one of them and try to be reasonable and just say that you think an error has been made so would they mind reviewing it for it for you.

You can of course appeal but as has been pointed out that would take many weeks as would a fresh application, not to mention a new fee.

[7by7]

From the supporting document checklist

If you or your spouse were married before - Divorce or death certificate of your or your spouse’s previous husband / wife / civil partner

You say that you used an agent; they should have known this and advised you to include it. Are you sure that the agent is qualified and competent? Are they OISC registered?

Having said that, as the ECO contacted you and asked for a fax copy they should have either accepted that or if it was not acceptable contacted you again to ask for the original,

You only have 30 days to submit an appeal, so should do so. Once this is received the ECM will automatically review the case and can overturn the refusal.

However, I suggest that you also contact the embassy and explain what happened and ask for the ECM to review the decision. If the original refusal is overturned you can then withdraw the appeal.

By post:

Head of Visa Services

British Embassy Bangkok

14 Wireless Road

Pathumwan

Bangkok 10330

By fax: +66 (0) 2 254 9579

By e-mail: [email protected]

Edited May 28, 2009 by 7by7

[feasantplukka]

You pay £500+ & a 10 week wait to be shafted with incompetent staff, it's just amazing things like this can happen, but this is Thailand, "Mai pen rai" our lives are in their hands , if it happened to me I'd kick someones door off it's hinges, Brandx good luck mate think you should be able to turn this round as a misscaraige seems to have taken place here, hope its is obvious to the people you have to deal with, keep us posted

[Brandx]

From the

If you or your spouse were married before - Divorce or death certificate of your or your spouse's previous husband / wife / civil partner

You say that you used an agent; they should have known this and advised you to include it. Are you sure that the agent is qualified and competent? Are they OISC registered?

Having said that, as the ECO contacted you and asked for a fax copy they should have either accepted that or if it was not acceptable contacted you again to ask for the original,

You only have 30 days to submit an appeal, so should do so. Once this is received the ECM will automatically review the case and can overturn the refusal.

However, I suggest that you also contact the embassy and explain what happened and ask for the ECM to review the decision. If the original refusal is overturned you can then withdraw the appeal.

By post:

Head of Visa Services

British Embassy Bangkok

14 Wireless Road

Pathumwan

Bangkok 10330

By fax: +66 (0) 2 254 9579

By e-mail: [email protected]

My agent used to work for the UK Border Agency or whatever they were before, so he should understand how they operate. However he is being rather negative about applying pressure through telephone calls and faxes......

This is part of his response to my request for him to call the ECM:-

Another fax from you will alert them of course but honestly they do not react to 'pressure' - there is an in-built defence mechanism....everyone 'complains' so it's never an big issue for them. They are generally well 'protected' from such matters. The manager will defend his staff and he will be defended by London also.

You are "fighting" a well oiled machine that is used to criticism and usually never concedes.

We will simply be rewarded by the correct decision of a visa issue as soon as they want to basically.

He took the appeal documents down to the embassy 10 minutes ago. But I will follow this up with an email to the address you have suggest and a new fax.

thanks again.

[chewy22]

This is just so wrong; we could not get married in Thailand (officially) without both our divorce papers.

Also your wife’s new passport which was in the hands of the embassy for 10 weeks will have had your sir name on it and as I remember you cant get one of those without all the relevant paperwork

Remember to keep calm.

I hope we haven’t made a cock up, as we didn’t submit our divorce papers to the embassy with our marriage certificate? We are just starting week 11 with no news as yet.

Good luck and please keep us up to date.

[7by7]

My agent used to work for the UK Border Agency or whatever they were before, so he should understand how they operate.

Maybe not, there are many employees of the UKBA (previously the IND) who are not involved in entry clearance. Even if this agent was, procedures and requirements are constantly changing, so there is a need to keep oneself up to date. Assuming that he is telling you the truth about his past employment!

As I said before, there is a clear requirement in the list of supporting documents and in Guidance - Husbands, wives and partners (INF 4) and in Chapter 13 - Settlement : Fiance(e)s, proposed civil partners, spouses, civil partners, unmarried and same-sex partners for evidence that any previous marriage(s) by either the applicant or sponsor has ended. Your agent should have known this and told you to provide the divorce certificate.

From what you have said, your agent is based in Thailand. Very few visa agents in Thailand are on the OISC register. You can check here to see if yours is among them. If an agent is not on the register then they are neither qualified nor regulated in the UK, so their advice should be treated with caution; no matter what their previous employment.

That she would have needed to produce her divorce certificate in order to remarry is, I believe, irrelevant. The ECO has no way of knowing if she did this or not.

[RickBradford]

BrandX,

I've been through a similar situation (not Thailand, but nearby) and would offer the following suggestions:

* your agent is a useless <deleted> making continual negative appraisals so he(?) will look better if it turns out OK. ($$$$ )

* the one thing the British Consulate wants to avoid is a direct accusation of incompetence against any of its staff. So you should actively allege incompetence in the the Embassy and state your determination to obtain redress, or to take it higher. They really hate that. This is the British Embassy <deleted>, not Thai Govt where they will deny you out of spite if you make trouble. You actually do have full rights at the Embassy in this situation.

Push it. Who said a fax would be OK? Who denied the visa because they hadn't seen an original? Does anybody in the office know what they're doing? When the ambassador has recovered from last night, would he be prepared to examine this case?

Well, you get my point. being accepting and humble, as we learn to do with Thai authorities, is the wrong attitude to take in your own Embassy, where you're permitted to rant and rave (politely, of course), and take it as high as it will go.

[chewy22]

I hope we haven't made a cock up, as we didn't submit our divorce papers to the embassy with our marriage certificte

Scrap that seems we did

[Brandx]

BrandX,

I've been through a similar situation (not Thailand, but nearby) and would offer the following suggestions:

* your agent is a useless <deleted> making continual negative appraisals so he(?) will look better if it turns out OK. ($$$$ )

* the one thing the British Consulate wants to avoid is a direct accusation of incompetence against any of its staff. So you should actively allege incompetence in the the Embassy and state your determination to obtain redress, or to take it higher. They really hate that. This is the British Embassy <deleted>, not Thai Govt where they will deny you out of spite if you make trouble. You actually do have full rights at the Embassy in this situation.

Push it. Who said a fax would be OK? Who denied the visa because they hadn't seen an original? Does anybody in the office know what they're doing? When the ambassador has recovered from last night, would he be prepared to examine this case?

Well, you get my point. being accepting and humble, as we learn to do with Thai authorities, is the wrong attitude to take in your own Embassy, where you're permitted to rant and rave (politely, of course), and take it as high as it will go.

Ok point taken...I'll sleep on that one

[Brandx]

I hope we haven't made a cock up, as we didn't submit our divorce papers to the embassy with our marriage certificte

Scrap that seems we did

You should be ok then, let us know how you get on.

[Brandx]

My agent used to work for the UK Border Agency or whatever they were before, so he should understand how they operate.

Maybe not, there are many employees of the UKBA (previously the IND) who are not involved in entry clearance. Even if this agent was, procedures and requirements are constantly changing, so there is a need to keep oneself up to date. Assuming that he is telling you the truth about his past employment!

As I said before, there is a clear requirement in the list of supporting documents and in Guidance - Husbands, wives and partners (INF 4) and in Chapter 13 - Settlement : Fiance(e)s, proposed civil partners, spouses, civil partners, unmarried and same-sex partners for evidence that any previous marriage(s) by either the applicant or sponsor has ended. Your agent should have known this and told you to provide the divorce certificate.

From what you have said, your agent is based in Thailand. Very few visa agents in Thailand are on the OISC register. You can check to see if yours is among them. If an agent is not on the register then they are neither qualified nor regulated in the UK, so their advice should be treated with caution; no matter what their previous employment.

That she would have needed to produce her divorce certificate in order to remarry is, I believe, irrelevant. The ECO has no way of knowing if she did this or not.

Well he's not on the list as I suspected, however he did achieve a first time visitor visa success for my lady 2 years ago and 3 more since then. They were all hard work. Maybe he just got a bit too complacent this time.

[7by7]

The 'hard work' is actually just getting all the paperwork sorted. Each year an average of 90% of visit applications are successful. Even if there was something out of the ordinary about her first visit application which required extra submissions to the ECO, the subsequent ones would have been a doddle; assuming she complied with the conditions of the previous ones. These self proclaimed visa agents have a reason for appearing to make it hard; so they can extract the maximum amount of money from their clients/victims. They are at best mere form fillers who do nothing that one cannot do oneself, if one knows where to look, and make their money by convincing people that visas are impossible to get without their help.

Given your history together, this settlement application should also have been a doddle; if this incompetent hadn't screwed up the paperwork and missed out a vital document! Did he offer a no visa, no fee? If so, don't hold your breath; he'll find some reason not to refund it!

Sorry to go on, but these people, usually Brits, who prey on vulnerable people at a stressful time make my blood boil.

None of which is going to help you, so:-

Make sure that you contact the embassy immediately.

Explain that you missed out the divorce certificate due to poor advice from an agent.

Remind them that you faxed them a copy when requested, and are ready, willing and able to provide them with the original.

Ask why, if the fax was of too poor a quality, you were not asked for the original at the time.

Ask for the refusal to be reviewed.

In the mean time, get your appeal form back from the agent, before he cocks that up too. There are plenty of people on here who will help you submit the appeal, and if you do feel the need for professional help then there are also people who can recommend a qualified and competent adviser.

[Brandx]

In the mean time, get your appeal form back from the agent, before he cocks that up too. There are plenty of people on here who will help you submit the appeal, and if you do feel the need for professional help then there are also people who can recommend a qualified and competent adviser.

I don't think he was that expensive, maybe £75 per visa and the same for this one. Some outfits in BKK want £350 to do the same. So up to now I've had no hassle, apart from the fact that he's taking Friday and Monday off to see his lady in Ubon.

The appeal forms already gone in, so at the moment there's not much I can do from the UK apart from sending more faxes and emails. I think they only work half a day on Friday so unless I get up at 3am it's all over until Monday. Actually I'll ask my wife to call them later this morning, she has a certain way with wan*ers.

cheers

[theoldgit]

Whilst I agree that the use of an agent is questionable, in fact UK Visas makes a point of saying so, I think some of the personal comments regarding the agent used on this occasion are a bit OTT, especially when the reasons for the refusal are not known.

I agree that if you are going to use an agent you really should use one that is registered with OISC, but whilst it is illegal to give immigration advice in the UK without being registered this is not the case in Thailand, though one agent is registered. Anyone can set themselves up as an "Immigration Advisor" without any skills whatsoever, and whilst I am not suggesting for one moment this is the case with this agent, you only have to look at the vulchers circling round at the VFS office to see what I mean.

[Tango7]

7by7 makes some good comments....

All I can add is good luck and don't let the B'stards get you down.

An open question:

Would it help to go to the embassy and hang around waiting to see someone ?

All the best...

[alyx]

Would it help to go to the embassy and hang around waiting to see someone ?

from what I understand the OP is still in the UK

[7by7]

I think some of the personal comments regarding the agent used on this occasion are a bit OTT, especially when the reasons for the refusal are not known.

With respect, OG, whilst we have not seen the refusal notice, the reason is known. Brandx says in his OP "we get the refusal based on the fact that she had failed to provide evidence that her previous marriage had been dissolved."

This is because this agent neglected to include her divorce certificate in the application. If you read the OP you will see that the agent also didn't include evidence of Brandx's income!

It clearly states in all the guidance that both of these are required, so I think my comments are justified.

Although this refusal is, in my opinion, perverse as the issue could have been resolved had the ECO accepted the faxed copy of the divorce certificate, as they seem to have done with the pay slips, or asked for the original, which s/he should have done if the copy wasn't acceptable, the fact remains that, based upon what we have been told, had the agent not cocked up the application in the first place Brandx would not now have to chase around trying to get the refusal reversed.

Brandx, if the worst happens and the refusal is not overturned, then as the appeal will be heard in the UK I strongly suggest that you obtain suitable legal advice in the UK. From the AIT website

You should seek legal representation for your appeal as early as possible. Make sure that the person you choose has training and experience in asylum and immigration matters. We cannot recommend any single representative or group. The Legal Services Commission, the Law Society and the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner may all help you to find a suitable advisor.

Tango7, as I understand it entry to the visa section at the embassy these days is by appointment only.

[Brandx]

I think some of the personal comments regarding the agent used on this occasion are a bit OTT, especially when the reasons for the refusal are not known.

This is because this agent neglected to include her divorce certificate in the application. If you read the OP you will see that the agent also didn't include evidence of Brandx's income!

It clearly states in all the guidance that both of these are required, so I think my comments are justified.

Thanks 7by7, your comments are correct, he failed to include all the documents, E.g. divorce statement and payslips. They accepted the payslips by fax but rejected the divorce paper (maybe because the fax machine in Nong Buidaeng was sh*te). He (agent) seemed to be under the impression that as they have had these documents many times before then all they have to do is cross ref to their records. However they actually ask for the last 3 months payslips now as a check to see how us guys are getting on in the recession.

So if by next Wednesday there's a report that a pair of boll**ks have been found hanging from a bridge and an unknown body was found in the klong, it was the unamed visa agent and I got the bas*ard!

I hope your reading this matey...

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Which agency did you use ?

[theoldgit]

7by7, I was not talking about your comments which as normal are spot on, it's remarks like this I don't particulary like, even though it seems be true, I think we should be above remarks like this.

* your agent is a useless <deleted> making continual negative appraisals so he(?) will look better if it turns out OK. ($$$$ )

I also don't people saying that if if were he he would go and kick doors of their hinges, frustrating as it is remarks like this lead to us all being tarred with the same brush.

I retain the view that the OP should try and reason with the ECM bearing in mind that the faxed copy of the divorce papers does not seem to have been questioned at the time.

[AndyJoy]

I think some of the personal comments regarding the agent used on this occasion are a bit OTT, especially when the reasons for the refusal are not known.

This is because this agent neglected to include her divorce certificate in the application. If you read the OP you will see that the agent also didn't include evidence of Brandx's income!

It clearly states in all the guidance that both of these are required, so I think my comments are justified.

Thanks 7by7, your comments are correct, he failed to include all the documents, E.g. divorce statement and payslips. They accepted the payslips by fax but rejected the divorce paper (maybe because the fax machine in Nong Buidaeng was sh*te). He (agent) seemed to be under the impression that as they have had these documents many times before then all they have to do is cross ref to their records. However they actually ask for the last 3 months payslips now as a check to see how us guys are getting on in the recession.

So if by next Wednesday there's a report that a pair of boll**ks have been found hanging from a bridge and an unknown body was found in the klong, it was the unamed visa agent and I got the bas*ard!

I hope your reading this matey...

Good luck and i hope you get your justice and the visa you are looking for.....

[halarpohala]

Hi guys, 1st post.

Does anybody out there also think this is a crazy decision? After all we have a genuine marriage certificate (which they have the original). Bangrak wouldn't have allowed us to get married if we had not verified our previous marital status.

Are we a victim of quotas?

Gutted

please be patient and understanding with them and continue to cooperate with them. you'd be surprised at the number of thai-falang marriages in which it turns out eventually that the thai partner is not officially divorced from her previous husband. the embassy people have to be very careful to sort these things out. don't hassle them.