The Thai Lie

[ELVIS790]

On a personal level ive always found thais very truthful, i learned along time ago NOT to lie to THEM, even a white lie is a bad one. Dont get me wrong when im buying i dont beleive anything thats said to me about the product/goods.

Over 12 years ive had 2 long term girlfreinds. The first relationship taught me NOT to lie, she was always 100% so if i told a lie it would usually result in me being to scared to go home lolol.

I certainly wouldnt say its a culture thing. The thais are very proud people, nobody likes to lose face, for some its all they have.

Next time your at a bar, listen the lies new farrang tourists say to the ladys, then decide who the liars are lol. Ive heard absolute rubbish, next thing some farrang is wondering why he's just been givin a slap lol.

[Texpat]

This isn't unique to Thailand.

In the 80s I lived in Japan and no often meant yes.

We see things in abstract and they see things in shades of grey.

"Can you finish it tomorrow," means very different things to the asian and western mind.

Westerners are literal -- CAN you COMPLETE it 24 HOURS from now. They'll say NO straight away -- afraid to dissapoint.

Thais answer ... yes! we'll start compiling requirements in the early evening tomorrow ... then, after somtam .... No shame.

Japan has evolved .. Thailand is struggling.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Texpat

[elibangkok]

I certainly wouldnt say its a culture thing. The thais are very proud people, nobody likes to lose face, for some its all they have.

Next time your at a bar, listen the lies new farrang tourists say to the ladys, then decide who the liars are lol. Ive heard absolute rubbish, next thing some farrang is wondering why he's just been givin a slap lol.

It definitely is a culture thing. Thais deem it acceptable to lie to save face in certain situations. For the most part it is not done maliciously, just seen as the way things are done to protect the face.

Western culture deems it ok for guys to lie to get laid. See almost any romantic comedy and the story is the guy gets the girl under a false premise, she finds out and gets upset but eventually takes him back.

It's great to be proud, but the better way to be proud is to accomplish things that earn respect as opposed to be proud you did not do something negative.

[sanook2me]

The OP is entirely correct and it is one of the most frustrating things about living in this country.

Agreed. It is an Asian thing that has something to do about saving face. It is not considered a "lie" by Asian standards. That is not how things are done in Asia. It is most frustrating in business when you ask when a product can be delivered and the Asian person you are asking will reply whatever they THINK you want to hear. If you ask if a product can be delivered in a week they will say yes, even if there is no way possible they could deliver it in that time frame.

Agree with you totally but after this situation has been played out to you a few times just join the play and act along by now you should know the script.

110% correct if a supplier(not just Asian) says delivery in one week it will be longer. This is not peculiar to Thailand but the entire human race.

[Texpat]

The OP is entirely correct and it is one of the most frustrating things about living in this country.

Agreed. It is an Asian thing that has something to do about saving face. It is not considered a "lie" by Asian standards. That is not how things are done in Asia. It is most frustrating in business when you ask when a product can be delivered and the Asian person you are asking will reply whatever they THINK you want to hear. If you ask if a product can be delivered in a week they will say yes, even if there is no way possible they could deliver it in that time frame.

Agree with you totally but after this situation has been played out to you a few times just join the play and act along by now you should know the script.

110% correct if a supplier(not just Asian) says delivery in one week it will be longer. This is not peculiar to Thailand but the entire human race.

More than a few western companies stake their reputation on timiliness -- it's a staple of efficiency.

Dominos -- 30 minutes or free

Cars made to order

BHL, FED Ex

This country is the least efficient of several dozen I've visited.

Thailand can't even figure out addresses because the richest guy gets an auspicious "99" while the nextdoor neighbor gets "26" because he's a moto mechanic. Absolute craziness.

[JohnGotti]

Lao kao is a part of Thai Culture too... its just that certain demographics of society are more likely to consume it.

[TheLaughingMan]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie. They do it in order to save face and will provide wrong information rather than say 'I do not know'.

[/size]To help better adapt myself to Thai culture, are there examples of a lie that was frustrating for you?

Note: this is a subject of a larger post about culture shock to help people adapt to the culture. I separated the topic to get more specific feedback.

Rubbish. You are talking to the wrong kind of people. Liars are everywhere if you spend time with the wrong crowd.

You're lying.

Birdman, you are a very funny man, I forever dub thee Captain Thai.

[universe2000]

Someone explained to me once that telling someone the truth is a manner that hurts their feelings can be considered "wrong speech" in a way that violates Buddhist priciples. Telling a white lie to make them feel better is supposedly more honorable.

I do not know if I buy it.

The Thai Lie is the opposite.

They are not trying to prevent hurting the other person when they tell a lie. They are only satifying their own need to save face.

In the case of providing the wrong direction, this does not help the person asking for directions. It only makes things worse. It would be better to say 'I don't know'.

On a personal level ive always found thais very truthful, i learned along time ago NOT to lie to THEM, even a white lie is a bad one.

This seems like a double standard. Why can a Thai person say a Thai Lie, but a foreigner cannot do the same? A Chinese foreigner may be trying to save face, so thus has to lie to the Thai person.

[a2396]

Way to numerous to mention. Basically, don't believe anything that is said, unless you have the ablity to verfy the truthfullness of information. Particularly important when any romantic or financial matters are involved. I think most would agree here that Thais don't consider such "stretching of the truth" lying. It is done for the purpose of making themselves look better or trying to make you feel better (they think).

[LemonBonbon]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie.

My biggest gripe living here is the farangs who lie on forums about Thailand.

Well said, I only joined this forum a couple of days ago and the amount of people sitting at home with nothing better to do

than make sh*t up because they have nothing of real interest to say is boring the hel_l out of me already..

I'm off to the beach with my honest dog!

[elibangkok]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie.

My biggest gripe living here is the farangs who lie on forums about Thailand.

Well said, I only joined this forum a couple of days ago and the amount of people sitting at home with nothing better to do

than make sh*t up because they have nothing of real interest to say is boring the hel_l out of me already..

I'm off to the beach with my honest dog!

I know your dog, she's a lying bitch who actually hates the beach but doesn't know how to tell you.

[IanForbes]

I'm off to the beach with my honest dog!

Now THERE is a critter that doesn't lie. If the dog likes you he licks you to death. If he doesn't like you he bites your leg. Either way you know exactly where you stand with a dog. Treat a dog well and he's your buddy for life.

Put your wife and dog in the trunk of your car for an hour and then take them out. The dog will be happy to see you. Your wife will sue you for divorce.

[Birdman]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie.

My biggest gripe living here is the farangs who lie on forums about Thailand.

Well said, I only joined this forum a couple of days ago and the amount of people sitting at home with nothing better to do

than make sh*t up because they have nothing of real interest to say is boring the hel_l out of me already..

I'm off to the beach with my honest dog!

Did it never occur to you, that some live right on the beach in beach houses and WLAN...?

[bungy007]

Lies are often told in self defense here.

Truth avoidance is alive and well -- a core value of Thainess is based on it.

Plus, they talk shit.

I am absolutely positive I could easily have an hour long conversation with an 100% uneducated Isaan tuktuk driver on the thermodynamic properties and aeroelasticity features of lead shielding in intergalactic travel.

If the person you're talking with is older than you, you're required to listen and nod approvingly no matter how much shit he's spewing.

And people ask me why I don't bother learning Thai! I'd rather put my efforts into jazz guitar

[Geekfreaklover]

There are I think four types of lies in Thailand. Yes, Thai people lie more than western people. It's true. Furthermore I can prove it on a home computer.

Thais lie normally for the following four reasons.

1) In order not to offend someone by telling them an unpleasent truth (white lie)

2) To not lose face. The old asking directions chestnut. Or any question where one does not know the answer.

3) To cover a past shameful event.

4) Money

Once you catch a close partner, spouse or a business associate lying beware. Lies are like cockroaches. You may see one or two but you know for certain there are many more lurking in the dark. -

Edited June 14, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[bungy007]

^ ^ or worse the doc sees something he can't fix and knows you're doomed -- but won't tell you for some spiritual/religious/karma reason.

You die alone in your bed three months later without having the 20-girl, ocean yacht, booze orgy that you might have otherwise.

Shudder. We're not all wired the same, are we?

When I was living in Japan in the early 1990s this very issue arose. It was well known that Japanese doctors keep quiet any diagonosis that may be bad news. As Tex suggested, someone did die within a few months of getting the all clear. The family sued as it became evident that the doctor knew from test results that the patient only had months to live. He stated that he decided that it was better for all to keep stuum! The courts accepted this and let him go scott free.!

Perhaps we have had too much christian guilt shoved down our throats but I still cannot ratify the Thais natural propensity to lie - even when there isn't a need. It's almost second nature to them

[jingjonoi]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie. They do it in order to save face and will provide wrong information rather than say 'I do not know'.

To help better adapt myself to Thai culture, are there examples of a lie that was frustrating for you?

Note: this is a subject of a larger post about culture shock to help people adapt to the culture. I separated the topic to get more specific feedback.

marc says:

who has never lied

marc says:

who will never lie

marc says:

we all lie

marc says:

we all have lied

[ELVIS790]

Someone explained to me once that telling someone the truth is a manner that hurts their feelings can be considered "wrong speech" in a way that violates Buddhist priciples. Telling a white lie to make them feel better is supposedly more honorable.

I do not know if I buy it.

The Thai Lie is the opposite.

They are not trying to prevent hurting the other person when they tell a lie. They are only satifying their own need to save face.

In the case of providing the wrong direction, this does not help the person asking for directions. It only makes things worse. It would be better to say 'I don't know'.

On a personal level ive always found thais very truthful, i learned along time ago NOT to lie to THEM, even a white lie is a bad one.

This seems like a double standard. Why can a Thai person say a Thai Lie, but a foreigner cannot do the same? A Chinese foreigner may be trying to save face, so thus has to lie to the Thai person.

I simply put it down to being a guest in THEIR country. Theres double standerds all over the place, double standerds in the u.k. yet in the u.k. it seems the foreigeners, especially the recent influx of eastern europeans get so much more than a native brit. I was recently in Mancher Royal A&E department. There was this Polish bloke who was obviously drunk, along with a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. He was constantly giving greif to patients awaiting treatment. He then decided to sit next to me and try to wind me up, i ignored him and looked straight ahead with tunnel vision, that is until i could take no more. To which i said, look if you want to go outside we can go outside, have ya got your dancing shoes on. To which he replyed, no not you, not outside, inside theres cameras, im only after a claim.......amazing.

In thailand YES, i find i have to bite my lip at times, but if it gets me peace then fine, thats why ill be spending alot of time there over the next few years.

[jonclark]

Is Marc lying????

Edited June 14, 2009 by jonclark

[waisingranker]

Is Marc lying????

Certainly seems like it! way too many excuses

[Tokay]

Someone explained to me once that telling someone the truth is a manner that hurts their feelings can be considered "wrong speech" in a way that violates Buddhist priciples. Telling a white lie to make them feel better is supposedly more honorable.

I do not know if I buy it.

I had to cut through Soi 6 today and drive past all the girlie bars. I heard at least 5 girls yell to me, "I suck your **** and lick your ****" as I drove by. Others lied right to my face and called me a "sexy man."

Now, I would have thought THIS would be considered "wrong speech" for the Thais and probably in direct violation of Buddhist principles. I mean, to think of myself as a sexy man... well, they just couldn't tell a bigger lie than that.

Excuse me sales man, where are the widgets?

"No have!"

What are these? They appear to be widgets.

"Mai khao chai."

I hear something along these lines at least once a day. Though, I'm finding it's all in how you ask the question. If you ask it the wrong way, you fail. But, sometimes they are just too lazy to look for the widgets or too uneducated to know they have them in the first place.

With all of that said, lying is not a Thai thing. It's just funny (and sometimes cute) how they do it.

[norwayeagle]

Lying, or witholding truth to save face is most certainly a part of Thai culture. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

Further, it can most definitely be damaging when taken to the extreme.

Well,,,,I guess(guess,hm wrong word) that why the world is how it is,Is because of all the lies (big lie small, fatal lie or or) So lying iz human nature?People are lying constantly all over this planet.Maybe its a Virus as old as the human race who make us do it. .heeeeelp

[yabaaaa]

One of the most difficult aspects of Thai culture to adapt to is the need for Thai people to lie.

My biggest gripe living here is the farangs who lie on forums about Thailand.

Well said, I only joined this forum a couple of days ago and the amount of people sitting at home with nothing better to do

than make sh*t up because they have nothing of real interest to say is boring the hel_l out of me already..

I'm off to the beach with my honest dog!

You know that dog you have is really a rabbit!!

[universe2000]

There are I think four types of lies in Thailand. Yes, Thai people lie more than western people. It's true. Furthermore I can prove it on a home computer.

Thais lie normally for the following four reasons.

1) In order not to offend someone by telling them an unpleasent truth (white lie)

2) To not lose face. The old asking directions chestnut. Or any question where one does not know the answer.

3) To cover a past shameful event.

4) Money

Once you catch a close partner, spouse or a business associate lying beware. Lies are like cockroaches. You may see one or two but you know for certain there are many more lurking in the dark. -

#1 and #3 seem commonly used in most cultures. #2 would be frustrating to someone visiting Thailand on vacation and not aware of this aspect of the culture.

But #4 would probably cause the most unpleasant feeling toward Thai people.

Here is an example:

I check into an apartment and the manager says the rent is 10,000 baht. He mentions that the apartment will clean the room twice per week and it is included in the price. At the end of the month, the manager provides a bill and charges 150 baht for each time the room is cleaned. He must think that I forgot what he said. He tries to test my memory. Quite often, Thai people do not like to record information so they can make a claim that they did not say sometime or that it was misunderstood what was said. I now ask many questions and try to get everything in writing. Else you are at the whim of the vendor and doubt you will have much legal recourse.