Leave Mr Leather Be !

[mbkudu]

[quote= Best Sellers

As George Carlin once said, "How can there be a 'Best Seller List' when best is a superlative which means just one?"

[The_Moog]

your foolish comment about writing a best seller as a sign of talent

Oh, really, the Intellectual Snobbery is quite grating !

You might say you don't need to be talented to be Wayne Rooney or Roger Federer, just be big and strong and practice enough.

It does require ability and skill set to write a popular piece of fiction. You can call that talent. Its a skill that sets apart from those of s writing on this board.

Is an Entertainer talented ? Madonna, Elvis? .....Or would you say just Mozart and Beethoven? Just classical stuff, eh?

The likes of VS Naipaul, - who are doing 'Literature' in their definition. - They're incorporating philosophical and cultural elements into the day-to-day slog of writing. Thats the difference.

You've got to be talented just to knock out 1500 words a day of readable words.

Once again, intellectual snobbery writ large.

[boris]

The true benchmarks for someone like Leather are writers like Le Carre, Len Deighton

How are you qualified to make that comment?

A lot of intellectual snobbery is emerging in these topics.

Commercial Writers try to make a living. If they can get a Blockbuster at the top of the paperback Best Sellers, that pays the bills.

When has Leather ever said he wants to win the Nobel Prize for literature?

Charles Dickens wrote fiction published in weekly affordable pamphlets. Now its considered Classic. Just try Vanity Fair though, one might mis-assume that he'd set out to write the definitive work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You prattle away about "intellectual snobbery" when what you really mean is a dislike of any sense of discrimination between the good and the second rate.Actually Charles Dickens was recognised at the time to be a writer of genius with an appeal across all social classes.Oh and by the way you ignorant buffoon, Vanity Fair was written by William Thackeray not Dickens.

[The_Moog]

Touche - you win...I meant 'Old Curiosity Shop' !

[taxexile]

NORRIS posted

but by no stretch of the imagination is Stephen Leather "a very talented author"

He admittedly does have a pulp fiction professionalism which eludes most other hack writers who deal with Thailand,

you are just contradicting yourself norris , either he has got it or he hasnt.

he isnt a talented author but he has pulp fiction professionalism ????

pulp fiction professionalism is a talent.

Where you are completely and totally wrong is your assertion that to write a best seller is the sign of a talented author.

to shift books off shelves you need talent. end of story.

he has the talent to write shiftable books !!

I note you are backtracking now on your foolish comment about writing a best seller as a sign of talent.

if ten thousand people will ask to read your work then you are entitled to consider yourself a person of talent.

talent = ability =aptitude = competence = faculty = skill = capacity.

and to follow , two norrisisms demonstrating intellectual snobbery at its worst.

they are just simple minded thrillers for the easily satisfied.

Oh and by the way you ignorant buffoon ,Vanity Fair was written by William Thackeray not Dickens.

you sound like a corduroy clad , dandruff depositing , deputy head of eng.lit. in some third rate comprehensive up there in crapsbury - upon - sludge.

"if it aint classics it must be &lt;deleted&gt;" , it was teachers like that that stopped me reading until i left school and found out that any kind of writing that provides enjoyment to the reader is of more value than sweating your way through some pompous tome because someone else says you have to read it.

who cares who can remember the correct name of the author , its not important.

that guy who wrote the book about the mean bastard who saw ghosts at christmas.

thats all you need to know.

Edited February 16, 2005 by taxexile

[The_Moog]

you sound like a corduroy clad , dandruff depositing , deputy head of eng.lit. in some third rate comprehensive up there in crapsbury - upon - sludge

This is gold dust. You're getting better by the day. Its wasted on us. You should trump Sauron and put out your own website/anthology.

"The muse is fluttering around me, looking for a place to perch. Hark it has alighted upon my shoulder"

You know who said that ? Byron, Dante Rossetti?....

KENNETH WILLIAMS - 'ROUND THE HORNE'

[taxexile]

those old radio shows have never been bettered , never.

apart from sgt.bilko , maybe , but that was tv.

[chonabot]

Nice one! Now awaiting Doris's riposte............

[The_Moog]

"I just want a fair week's wage for a fair day's work"

Sgt Bilko.

Phil Silvers was talented.

Don't have to be Oscar Wilde, PG Wodehouse, Moliere or Stephen Fry to be a talented humorist. Just got to be funny.

Edited February 16, 2005 by The_Moog

[boris]

NORRIS posted

but by no stretch of the imagination is Stephen Leather "a very talented author"

He admittedly does have a pulp fiction professionalism which eludes most other hack writers who deal with Thailand,

you are just contradicting yourself norris , either he has got it or he hasnt.

he isnt a talented author but he has pulp fiction professionalism ????

pulp fiction professionalism is a talent.

Where you are completely and totally wrong is your assertion that to write a best seller is the sign of a talented author.

to shift books off shelves you need talent. end of story.

he has the talent to write shiftable books !!

I note you are backtracking now on your foolish comment about writing a best seller as a sign of talent.

if ten thousand people will ask to read your work then you are entitled to consider yourself a person of talent.

talent = ability =aptitude = competence = faculty = skill = capacity.

and to follow , two norrisisms demonstrating intellectual snobbery at its worst.

they are just simple minded thrillers for the easily satisfied.

Oh and by the way you ignorant buffoon ,Vanity Fair was written by William Thackeray not Dickens.

you sound like a corduroy clad , dandruff depositing , deputy head of eng.lit. in some third rate comprehensive up there in crapsbury - upon - sludge.

"if it aint classics it must be &lt;deleted&gt;" , it was teachers like that that stopped me reading until i left school and found out that any kind of writing that provides enjoyment to the reader is of more value than sweating your way through some pompous tome because someone else says you have to read it.

who cares who can remember the correct name of the author , its not important.

that guy who wrote the book about the mean bastard who saw ghosts at christmas.

thats all you need to know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think one can assume from your illiterate and stupifyingly ignorant post that you are short on education and perhaps on intelligence.I will therefore try to keep things simple for you.When one talks about talent, it is a reference to literary ability not necessarily to sell books.This is not by any means confined to what you describe as pompous classical authors.In your very elastic version of "talent" one may as well include a talent for picking one's nose.

There is a huge range of modern writers whose books are accessible and enjoyable -a very few examples taken entirely at random might include Timothy Mo, William Boyd.Alex Garland,Martin Amis, Yann Martel,Pico Iyer, John Le Carre.Some of these sell very well, others not so well but they are all distinguished by creative intelligence.It may take a little more effort to enjoy-though not so much-but the rewards are very high.Stephen Leather -and I would stress I have nothing against him-is simply not in this class.He would probably admit this himself.

In words of few syllables, try and get it into your tiny little brain that even selling millions of copies(eg the Da Vinci Code rubbish) is no evidence of real talent.It is possible to write well and succeed in the mass market (eg Le Carre).

Frankly demolishing your embarrassing little outburst is like taking candy off a baby.Occasionally I come across people who can give as good as they get, but you are a comically easy walkover.

[chaladmak]

is it necessary make multiple "one-in-another" quotes?

very annoying to read ! why not simply quote one single point? those who wanna find the development if that point - can easily do it themselves....

[chuchok]

Sooo everything that Boris says about talent is Gospel and everything Tax and Moog says is rubbish.Right.Got it in one now.

[taxexile]

MAURICE said

stupifyingly

its spelt with an E

crapsbury comp await your cv.

Edited February 16, 2005 by taxexile

[chaladmak]

as if there are real "good authors" among the expats in Thailand....

[lampard10]

as if there are real "good authors" among the expats in Thailand....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WHAT! Do you mean if you have done things which normal people don't do,seen things which normal people don't see and lived lives which normal people don't live,ie ex-pats in Thailand,you are not allowed to write about these things because people like us see them every day of our lives. Grow up men. Your're acting like a lot of spoilt brats because someones seen into our little world and written about it .Do you really want to keep it a secret. It is supposed to be fiction but I guess some authors hit a lot nearer the truth than some people like. Do you go complaining to George Lucas. Star Wars is rubbish cause it didn't happen.Do you think Stuart Little is a terrible film because a real mouse can't speak. No,because in those films no-one has intruded into your little dream worlds. My guess is that most of you would be horrified at the 'folks back home' knowing what it's really like out here.

[chaladmak]

oops, I did it again - piss off someone? I didn't mean to...

[The_Moog]

Don't think any of you should waste time attempting to debate with Boris.

Looking at his 'previous posts' via his profile, its all utterly overblown, pompous nonsense, written in the same style as Billy Bunter.

Just another penniless loser hanging around chatrooms - probably an author manque- who wants people to pay attention to him.

He's probably a nice, intelligent well-read guy in real life, but...life's to short to find out.

Ignore jackasses.

Edited February 16, 2005 by The_Moog

[boris]

Don't think any of you should waste time attempting to debate with Boris.

Looking at his 'previous posts' via his profile, its all utterly overblown, pompous nonsense, written in the same style as Billy Bunter.

Just another penniless loser hanging around chatrooms - probably an author manque- who wants people to pay attention to him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder what you mean by the Billy Bunter style? Nonsense really but I understand the need to save face when an argument has been so overwhelmingly lost.So no objection to name calling if it massages damaged egos.

You're right by the way about spending too much time on this forum but it's addictive especially when there's so much nonsense to expose.Penniless loser? Go ahead and think up some more insults if it makes you feel happy.

[jackr]

Don't think any of you should waste time attempting to debate with Boris.

Looking at his 'previous posts' via his profile, its all utterly overblown, pompous nonsense, written in the same style as Billy Bunter.

Just another penniless loser hanging around chatrooms - probably an author manque- who wants people to pay attention to him.

I wonder what you mean by the Billy Bunter style? Nonsense really but I understand the need to save face when an argument has been so overwhelmingly lost.So no objection to name calling if it massages damaged egos.

You're right by the way about spending too much time on this forum but it's addictive especially when there's so much nonsense to expose.Penniless loser? Go ahead and think up some more insults if it makes you feel happy.

Take it on the chin, Boz

[jaidam]

back to the original topic.Im a big fan of his books.Only read 2, Pay off and another one that was just brilliant, set in London about a prison breakout.Certainly in the same league as Grisham and co.

Classic character in Mcdonald who goes undercover in a UK prison.

I will be looking for more books by him.

[chonabot]

back to the original topic.Im a big fan of his books.Only read 2, Pay off and another one that was just brilliant, set in London about a prison breakout.Certainly in the same league as Grisham and co.

Classic character in Mcdonald who goes undercover in a UK prison.

I will be looking for more books by him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes mate , you and I are probably the only 2 here that have read any of his other published works. The reason Stephen's publishers didn't want to release " Private Dancer" is because it was so out of tune with his other works. I believe they were worried that people ( ignorant of his previous catalogue) would label him as a " Sexpat trashy novellist" etc .

Hey look what has happened here!

I doubt Mr Leather gives a toss either way , his loyal fanbase know the truth.

I never stated that his books were in the same league as Dickens or even the same flavour as the esteemed travel writers that Dorus Day keeps harking on about. But I feel they stand up to Grisham/Deighton et al.

[ProfessorFart]

I think you are confusing the issue here. Whilst Leather may be able to turn out reasonable page turners, he is far from being even a mid league player when it comes to churning out even pulp fiction.

If you feel that he is a talented author then so be it, however I wonder how many of the supporters here would have heard of him had he not written 'Private Dancer'? My guess is none.

[chonabot]

I think you are confusing the issue here. Whilst Leather may be able to turn out reasonable page turners, he is far from being even a mid league player when it comes to churning out even pulp fiction.

If you feel that he is a talented author then so be it, however I wonder how many of the supporters here would have heard of him had he not written 'Private Dancer'? My guess is none.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point exactly , it says more about our members than it does Mr Leather , or at least it points towards what ilk/genre of books they tend to take notice of ( sexpat bargirl tomes)

No offense intended , but it strikes me odd that most posters have not read his books , yet he is a bestseller Author.

Edited February 16, 2005 by chonabot

[chuchok]

How would you rate Stephen King then?

[chonabot]

How would you rate Stephen King then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO Mr King is a fine Author of the Thriller/Horror/Supernatuarl genre. His films made the leap from book to screen with ease.

My favourite would be Salems Lot.

[chuchok]

How would you rate Stephen King then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO Mr King is a fine Author of the Thriller/Horror/Supernatuarl genre. His films made the leap from book to screen with ease.

My favourite would be Salems Lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to read him alot when I was young.I agree about Salems lot too.

He is the most published fiction Author of all time (I think?)

I certainly wouldn't class him as the best Author I have ever read though,but if you take it on numbers etc then he would be the best ever?One mans trash is anothers classic?

Edited February 16, 2005 by chuchok

[chonabot]

How would you rate Stephen King then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO Mr King is a fine Author of the Thriller/Horror/Supernatuarl genre. His films made the leap from book to screen with ease.

My favourite would be Salems Lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to read him alot when I was young.I agree about Salems lot too.

He is the most published fiction Author of all time (I think?)

I certainly wouldn't class him as the best Author I have ever read though,but if you take it on numbers etc then he would be the best ever.??!!??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I think you're right about that.

My point to Doris was a bit hazy , I meant the sucess of an Author is a sign of talent , but of course you can't take the one to mean the other.

That would mean the Spice Girls are more talented than Amy Winehouse etc.

But a terrible Author surely would not make the bestsellers list.

The majority of well read people will acknowledge that Mr Leather is a successful Author and he has been around for quite a while , a lot of people on this board will not have heard of him prior to " Private Dancer"

Draw your own conclusions.

Edited February 16, 2005 by chonabot

[chuchok]

Well, I'm going to buy a couple of his books so I'll let you know.

[ProfessorFart]

No offense intended , but it strikes me odd that most posters have not read his books , yet he is a bestseller Author.

He is most certainly not. A best selling author is a Stephen King, Dick Francis or a Tom Clancy who regularly top best sellers lists all over the world. Men with the ability not only to write stories but to write them in such a way that millions around the world want to read them. Stephen Leather does not fall into this category.

The comparison to recorded music in order to get some perspective is a false one and a popular mistake which is made. It would be more accurate to liken it to live music. The above authors are your Springsteens, U2s and Queens (popular modern rock music entertainers - for Boris' benefit) who would pack stadia the world over. The Stephen Leathers of this world would be no more than club level entertainers with a solid but small fanbase.

I find it interesting and encouraging that the topic of literature has raised such a debate (barring Boris' trollish highbrow nonsense which he has only written to get a rise)

I had actually expected more people to leap to the defence of CG Moore than Stephen Leather as I have met more than a few expats who see themselves as characters from CGM's books (and even met one buffoon who claimed to have been the model for one of his characters.)

At the end of the day there are no right or wrong answers, only perspectives.

[chonabot]

I AM Vincent Calvino.