Early Morning Massacre Near Chalong...

[huggybear]

Harleyclarkey, this is why your opinion is subjective.

You lived here 17 years ago, when sure, Phuket was probably safer than it is now.

Well, some of us live here now and sure, although there is crime going on (surprise, surprise)this latest instance has nothing to do with foreigners or tourists. Neither did the shootout in Patong. I go to work here everyday and feel completely safe except for the bonehead driving going on which is much more dangerous to me than crime (although some of the driving techniques should be labeled criminal).

So why be so alarmist toward foreigners and tourists, it's not necessary. Check it against the crime in Jamaica, another very popular tourist destination, or Honolulu

[mrukman]

Iv'e noticed the 1s that live in phuket or near patong seem to think there are no problems with a shootout on the beach rd in full view of tourists, could it be that your used to it now because its a daily occurence. or are you blinkered by the mai pen rai attitude. I thought thai visa was democratic but post's that cast doub't on your belove'd island seem to disapear on a reguler basis when news everyone should be aware of gets deleted or locked like my previouse post on this subject. I stated that the crime wave and gangland shooting had nothing to do with the economic climate we are suffering too in England but we do not have men turning up and taking out people over a dispute or a shootout on the streets in Blackpool. You cannot hide behind the facet that is phuket the land of smiles it is a currupt crime ridden lawless island where the mafia rule the roost not the governer or police. How long are we betting the latest murderer is formally charged. Or will it be the pakistani gangster they let out on bail when he attempted to take a buisness partner out scenario again. What have the local plod done about that 1 or have the put it under the carpet hoping the locals will forget about there pathetic way of solving high duty crime. Yes welcome to the land of smile's or should it be the land of smiling assasins.

[harleyclarkey]

Harleyclarkey, this is why your opinion is subjective.

You lived here 17 years ago, when sure, Phuket was probably safer than it is now.

Well, some of us live here now and sure, although there is crime going on (surprise, surprise)this latest instance has nothing to do with foreigners or tourists. Neither did the shootout in Patong. I go to work here everyday and feel completely safe except for the bonehead driving going on which is much more dangerous to me than crime (although some of the driving techniques should be labeled criminal).

So why be so alarmist toward foreigners and tourists, it's not necessary. Check it against the crime in Jamaica, another very popular tourist destination, or Honolulu

I said I was there 17 years ago....not lived there 17 years ago.

I live there NOW...well up to last year. I need a break from all the hassle.

The shoot out DID affect tourists...it took place amongst them.

I agree the insane drivers who shouldn't be in charge of a shop trolly are let loose on the roads. This is one small example of what I am on about. Touch one and you are for the jump. No matter what they did (drunk, no lights, speeding and going up the street the wrong way?)...you will pay either with money or a beating. I am not just refering to the murders and shootings...but issues such as this. What about if you get into an arguement or, forbid, a tussle with a Thai? Every male Thai within shout will jump on the "farang" and start to beat him sensless. It all adds up. You also have no back up from the authorities to make you feel safe.

Sure...Jamaica...Haiti...etc are dangerous dumps and full of scum who will wreck your holiday. But then the point/post here is not that Phuket is the worst....the question is that is it a safe place now? The clear answer is NO.

The world has shrunk and Thailand sweet, smiling veneer is now wearing thin....especially for me. I may give it another shot (no pun!) next month....first visit in 15 months.

Alarmist?? Me?? No...just stating the facts that everyone seems to accept...outside Phuket.

Edited August 11, 2009 by harleyclarkey

[LivinLOS]

Harleyclarkey, this is why your opinion is subjective.

You lived here 17 years ago, when sure, Phuket was probably safer than it is now.

Well, some of us live here now and sure, although there is crime going on (surprise, surprise)this latest instance has nothing to do with foreigners or tourists. Neither did the shootout in Patong. I go to work here everyday and feel completely safe except for the bonehead driving going on which is much more dangerous to me than crime (although some of the driving techniques should be labeled criminal).

So why be so alarmist toward foreigners and tourists, it's not necessary. Check it against the crime in Jamaica, another very popular tourist destination, or Honolulu

Tell that to the Tourists that were sat in Spicy when the bullets were flying, the girl got clipped, etc..

[markg]

Iv'e noticed the 1s that live in phuket or near patong seem to think there are no problems with a shootout on the beach rd in full view of tourists, could it be that your used to it now because its a daily occurence.

Daily? DAILY? Surely you jest, sir. !

Shootings in Patong are not a DAILY occurrence.

Please supply evidence to support this !

I've just been reading about a chap hacked to death in the beer garden of a pub in London, in front of his son and father, in broad daylight.

I've only lived here 6 years, and i have never felt unsafe. I have known just two people who have been victims of crime.

This is hardly Jamaica or Brazil (or a lot of South America actually) is it, where one cannot safely go out at night.

I have never ever felt unsafe at night here.

Those of you who live here and are in fear for your lives because of 'daily' shootings, i'm assuming you're making plans to move on very very shortly. Where are you planning to move to, if i may ask.

I wonder why so many rich people choose to live here. Gulu Lalvani mentioned last night that of all the places he has travelled in the world, that Phuket was the best place to retire.

Do you think they travel everywhere with armed bodyguards, the same as they would in most of Africa, South America and many other places in Asia?

For tourists and expats, Phuket is pretty safe. I dont say that whilst looking through rose coloured glasses. I say that from being out and about amongst the bars and nightlife of Phuket, 2 or 3 times a week, for 6 years.

I've just never felt that atmosphere or undercurrent of violence which i have felt in other places in the world.

Some parts of my home town included. (North Manchester was home, Moss Side was school. Don't tell me about shoot-outs in public !)

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Come on guys, admit it’s getting worse, i have been here about 9 years and it is getting worse, i think it’s be course you guys is scared to lose customer that you will not admit it.

[markg]

It might very well be getting worse, i don't know, but it's still not bad enough for me to be in fear.

I will never live anywhere if i'm in fear.

I don't have a business here.

If i was in fear, i'd move away.

I'm curious to know where people are moving to that can offer the same level of lifestyle, but in a much safer package.

Oh, and for a similar price of course !

[LivinLOS]

Its not fear, I have hung out getting drunk while you can hear the gunfire, or drove a rickshaw through mumbai at rush hour, I am not a risk averse person..

But Mr and Mrs normal, booking their holiday, or thinking of a retirement dont readily see the Phuket = 33 death by firearms per 100k population, they see brochures of beaches and think it will be a place where an approx rule of law might apply.

When I think of the expats I have known over the years, 2 driven off the island by gun wielding locals, another with a gun in his face with a road rage, another with a kidnapped wife and hitmen out to kill him, also beaten to a pulp over nothing by a group (needed plastic surgery after a wall brick to the face) thats to say nothing of the people killed (3 I know) and badly hurt (too many to think about) through drunk driving Thais.. And in every case I list there not ever did the police do anything to assist in the slightest.

Its not that these problems exist, they do, we see them.. But its what Phuket sells itself as versus what it really is.. It sells itself as an exotic beach party destination and much like Hed Kandis first high profile visit to the island, there was a mugger hanging out in the shadows of the car park (again police were this time too busy with ASEAN to work on it)..

I'm curious to know where people are moving to that can offer the same level of lifestyle, but in a much safer package.

Oh, and for a similar price of course !

Chiang Mai ? without the ocean sadly, but with the best ride roads in the country.. Costs at a guess 50% - 70% of Phuket to live the same lifestyle.

As to the similar price, Phuket aint cheap any more.. I just spent 2.5 months in the UK for a summer vacation, drinks cheaper, food in markets better quality and cheaper, even food in restaurants not much different. I pay more in rent here than my folks do, my cars cost extremely more, etc etc etc.. Thats forgetting the fact of how easy it is to make money there.. If the sun shined there I probably wouldnt live here (not because of the cost, because of the things I can do, motorsports, sophisticated activities, entertainments, quality of services, etc.. I am not here to save money but value needs to be noted) but the sun doesnt shine, so I do.

Edited August 11, 2009 by LivinLOS

[HDRIDER]

HI

I am not scared and will not move, i like it here.

[steelepulse]

Its not fear, I have hung out getting drunk while you can hear the gunfire, or drove a rickshaw through mumbai at rush hour, I am not a risk averse person..

But Mr and Mrs normal, booking their holiday, or thinking of a retirement dont readily see the Phuket = 33 death by firearms per 100k population, they see brochures of beaches and think it will be a place where an approx rule of law might apply.

When I think of the expats I have known over the years, 2 driven off the island by gun wielding locals, another with a gun in his face with a road rage, another with a kidnapped wife and hitmen out to kill him, also beaten to a pulp over nothing by a group (needed plastic surgery after a wall brick to the face) thats to say nothing of the people killed (3 I know) and badly hurt (too many to think about) through drunk driving Thais.. And in every case I list there not ever did the police do anything to assist in the slightest.

Its not that these problems exist, they do, we see them.. But its what Phuket sells itself as versus what it really is.. It sells itself as an exotic beach party destination and much like Hed Kandis first high profile visit to the island, there was a mugger hanging out in the shadows of the car park (again police were this time too busy with ASEAN to work on it)..

I'm curious to know where people are moving to that can offer the same level of lifestyle, but in a much safer package.

Oh, and for a similar price of course !

Chiang Mai ? without the ocean sadly, but with the best ride roads in the country.. Costs at a guess 50% - 70% of Phuket to live the same lifestyle.

As to the similar price, Phuket aint cheap any more.. I just spent 2.5 months in the UK for a summer vacation, drinks cheaper, food in markets better quality and cheaper, even food in restaurants not much different. I pay more in rent here than my folks do, my cars cost extremely more, etc etc etc.. Thats forgetting the fact of how easy it is to make money there.. If the sun shined there I probably wouldnt live here (not because of the cost, because of the things I can do, motorsports, sophisticated activities, entertainments, quality of services, etc.. I am not here to save money but value needs to be noted) but the sun doesnt shine, so I do.

LivinLOS,

I've never  met you, but have taken your posts over the years in a few forums as being right on the money.  I'm just curious as to how you can stay, as I will, if it is too dangerous.

I agree over the past 12 years that I have been here things have gotten more dangerous, but so has most every other developing place in the world.  

However for me and my family, the positives of being here outweigh the negatives, and with our lifestyle, things are pretty safe and there have never been any criminal activities towards us in all these years, unless you count a maid from 11 years ago that had a spare key and stole some money from friends while we were out.

All in all, I'd say for my family and my location, we feel totally safe ( I've had a full alarm system with motion detectors, heat sensors, cameras, etc., and never turned them on).

[billythehat]

I've had a full alarm system with motion detectors, heat sensors, cameras, etc

...mmmm...yes, most admirable, Sir, but you may have to concur that such extreme and valuable facilities are not usually available to Joe Tourist and his family during their stroll along the beach road, and that’s the rub, you know – they don’t..

[harleyclarkey]

HI

I am not scared and will not move, i like it here.

Like you HD I do like the place and so I continue to come back. It is a lovely island with tons to offer.

But it could be soo much better. But I fear this will never happen as the corruption and rot is now too deeply imbedded from the top down. This I guess is what gets to me the most. No control...so violence, IMHO, will increase.

[LivinLOS]

I've never  met you, but have taken your posts over the years in a few forums as being right on the money.  I'm just curious as to how you can stay, as I will, if it is too dangerous.

I agree over the past 12 years that I have been here things have gotten more dangerous, but so has most every other developing place in the world.  

Your asking the wrong person.. As its not 'danger' itself that will turn me away, as I mentioned I am not a specially risk averse person.

Far more than the danger is a combination of over development, actually thats over simplifying it, its under infrastructure, its water that doesnt flow, its electric that drops off for a second 5 times a day, its the 1000's of badly driven vehicles by myopic rice farmers with no road training or experience, who give way at road junctions based on todays perception of their status / face, etc etc.. I actually like the more modern development, the carrefore, the cinema, the broadband, etc. For me they make Phuket very appealing compared to other Asian options. I like a modern lifestyle, but theres investment that needs to go hand in hand with that.

But mostly, the thing that has the greatest chance of driving me elsewhere, is purely the attitude and lack of integration with locals.. The fact that the Thais on the island have come here chasing the dream of big money, and that money is sourced from farangs, has created an attitude of gouging and rip offs, its acceptable, its just 'how it is' and I dont get that feeling in other places where normal communities have evolved. Yes theres still minor level dual pricing, but here the gouge the farang vibe is just embedded, supported by every other Thai including police and other authority. For me that feeling of constantly being ripped off constantly being disadvantaged of having to always be in the wrong, is far more likely to have me moving than a fear of danger.

That said there was apparently a break in close to me recently, while I was out of the house, the police came round, ran into my property (without any permission, warrants, etc.. Of course) with guns drawn, running up my stairs, pointed a loaded gun directly at my brother.. And then even once they realized he was supposed to be there then turned their attention to my motorbikes outside and gave him a hard time. As someone who leaves my house for periods often it is a concern that such break ins are becoming much more common. The neighbor (police) has fitted huge bars and grills on all their windows and I wont live like that, if it becomes necessary to lock myself in a prison in the tropics I will have to recognize that and leave.

Also dont get me wrong.. I love this island, I especially love the potential it had, which I feel its losing rather than gaining. If I moan and whinge, its because I love the place and can see its chances of being a well run, clean, sustainable, tropical destination being covered in crappy breeze block townhouses, with more frictions than peace.

[markg]

Its not that these problems exist, they do, we see them.. But its what Phuket sells itself as versus what it really is.. It sells itself as an exotic beach party destination and much like Hed Kandis first high profile visit to the island, there was a mugger hanging out in the shadows of the car park (again police were this time too busy with ASEAN to work on it)..

1. OK from a tourists point of view, I think Phuket can pretty well sell itself as a beach destination, for sure. There are mercifully few tourists who are victims of violent crime. The top 10 complaints (according to the Phuket Gazette) from tourists do not include any mention of violence against the person or even theft from the person. The complaints, which certainly need to be sorted, though it aint easy, is the jet ski rip offs and the tuk tuk rip offs.

2. From an expat point of view, if you're retired or working in low profile jobs (teaching etc) then i still don't believe there is a problem. You're unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime. You've the same chances of being a victim as any other comparable city.

3. If you're in a high profile business, say property development, then it could be dodgy. Jealousy from former land owners, disputes over qualty of work etc etc. I'd say you're in the red-zone here. Same happens in all developing sunny places though. Try developing property in the Costa Del Sol now that the Russians have moved in!

4. If you're Thai or Burmese then you're in the red-zone. But you already know that because you've been brought up like that. Far too many places in Thailand have a gun culture. Hitmen are (apparently) cheap and plentiful - this is a Thai-wide problem and not exclusive to Phuket.

I'm still waiting for a list of places that offer the same things we enjoy in Phuket, with a significantly lower level of crime.

Are there any such places?

Africa? Nah

Central America? you're joking.

South America? i think not.

North America? nope

Canadia? cold

Europe then......maybe in the old Eastern European states, but gun crime is still a problem there too

China?

Singapore?

Malaysia?

maybe Malaysia is the place for some people to go to if they are in fear of the 'daily' shootings in Phuket.

[Valentine]

To me it seems the Chalong killings were because of an argument resulting in loss of face, easy accessibility to a gun, the bottling up of emotions (if you look hard enough you can see it brewing behind the smile) which can seemingly explode at the slightest provocation. Thais rank fairly low in average IQ & I imagine if there was test of EQ (emotional quotient) they would rank pretty low in that as well.

The education system greatly contributes to the low IQ average & the lack of will to change it is quite obvious given, that if people become more intelligent combined with rational thinking, then the politicians & elites will not be able to pull the wool over their eyes so easily, thus the groups which swap power over the years could lose their grip. The emotional quotient will never change as long the role models both in real life & on TV continue to behave as they do. The religious leadership does not provide any decent guidance despite the fact they truly could given the will to do so.

[steelepulse]

Its not that these problems exist, they do, we see them.. But its what Phuket sells itself as versus what it really is.. It sells itself as an exotic beach party destination and much like Hed Kandis first high profile visit to the island, there was a mugger hanging out in the shadows of the car park (again police were this time too busy with ASEAN to work on it)..

1. OK from a tourists point of view, I think Phuket can pretty well sell itself as a beach destination, for sure. There are mercifully few tourists who are victims of violent crime. The top 10 complaints (according to the Phuket Gazette) from tourists do not include any mention of violence against the person or even theft from the person. The complaints, which certainly need to be sorted, though it aint easy, is the jet ski rip offs and the tuk tuk rip offs.

2. From an expat point of view, if you're retired or working in low profile jobs (teaching etc) then i still don't believe there is a problem. You're unlikely to be the victim of a violent crime. You've the same chances of being a victim as any other comparable city.

3. If you're in a high profile business, say property development, then it could be dodgy. Jealousy from former land owners, disputes over qualty of work etc etc. I'd say you're in the red-zone here. Same happens in all developing sunny places though. Try developing property in the Costa Del Sol now that the Russians have moved in!

4. If you're Thai or Burmese then you're in the red-zone. But you already know that because you've been brought up like that. Far too many places in Thailand have a gun culture. Hitmen are (apparently) cheap and plentiful - this is a Thai-wide problem and not exclusive to Phuket.

I'm still waiting for a list of places that offer the same things we enjoy in Phuket, with a significantly lower level of crime.

Are there any such places?

Africa? Nah

Central America? you're joking.

South America? i think not.

North America? nope

Canadia? cold

Europe then......maybe in the old Eastern European states, but gun crime is still a problem there too

China?

Singapore?

Malaysia?

maybe Malaysia is the place for some people to go to if they are in fear of the 'daily' shootings in Phuket.

Some might think of the PI, but with metal detectors and guns aplenty, it's definitely more dangerous than Phuket.

The most danger I usually find myself in is when I talk to some Russian girls and their male counterparts come over with their thugs right behind them

[JetsetBkk]

I've lived in statistically far more violent cities

Well as Thailand ranks 3rd in the world for death by firearms.. You lived in cities in Columbia or South Africa then ?

If you're relying on Nationmaster stats, they've been shown to be quite wrong regarding Thailand, gun crimes and murders.

Try

"(UNODC 2000)The Seventh United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems"

Please show evidence where they are wrong ??

OK. Tried it. Here's the error:

Total recorded intentional homicide, completed ...............................5717

Total recorded intentional homicide, attempted ...............................4777

Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm ...23631

So both Nationmaster and the UN have screwed up again, just like they did two years ago:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-Ran...00#entry1573400

[LivinLOS]

So how do these figures you list work ??

Total recorded intentional homicide, completed........................... 5,717 ..5,052 ..5,140

Total recorded intentional homicide, attempted ...........................4,777 ..4,311 ..4,739

Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm ..23,631 21,635 20,032

If total intentional homicides = 5717 how does the subsection of total intentional homicides with a firearm = 23,631 ??

Personally I take the UN numbers over Thailand stats any day. You only have to follow the news reporting to see how so many are wildly out.

[JetsetBkk]

So how do these figures you list work ??

Total recorded intentional homicide, completed........................... 5,717 ..5,052 ..5,140

Total recorded intentional homicide, attempted ...........................4,777 ..4,311 ..4,739

Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm ..23,631 21,635 20,032

If total intentional homicides = 5717 how does the subsection of total intentional homicides with a firearm = 23,631 ??

That's precisely what I am asking. So are you agreeing now that the UN figures are wrong?

...Personally I take the UN numbers over Thailand stats any day. You only have to follow the news reporting to see how so many are wildly out.

Oh, so you didn't check out the link in my previous post that shows that these numbers come from the Thai police.

Where do you think the UN get their numbers from?

[LivinLOS]

Where did you source those Thai police stats ??

Thats not in the link..

Edited August 13, 2009 by LivinLOS

[JetsetBkk]

Where did you source those Thai police stats ??

Thats not in the link..

Yes, the link in DP25's post is dead now, although the PDF file is still available via

http://www.royalthaipolice.go.th/crime/stat/cy48_total.pdf

After Googling for "cy48_total.pdf", I found this discussion about the same error:

http://www.nationmaster.com/discussion/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir

Have a look at the comment from "Puff Master B" - 6th one from the top:

The statistics for Thailand are wrong. 20,000 is the number of illegal guns found per year, not the number of gun murders. There are roughly 5,000 murders per year in Thailand, there are no statistics on the percent that is from guns.

[LivinLOS]

I would like to see some data.. I do have an open mind on it but a random post by 'Puff master D' with no factual backup seems a little obtuse..

I agree the data as presented is confusing.. But theres not much else I can find.

[JetsetBkk]

I would like to see some data.. .

The data is in the first link I just posted. Was that not clear?

Here it is again: http://www.royalthaipolice.go.th/crime/stat/cy48_total.pdf

Next you'll complain that it is in Thai. Why do you think that Nationmaster and the UN got it wrong?

Surely these figures from the 'Seventh United Nations Survey' speak for themselves:

Total recorded intentional homicide, completed ...............................5717

Total recorded intentional homicide, attempted ...............................4777

Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm ...23631

Look at any other country's figures for "Total homicides completed" and "Total homicides committed with a firearm" - I didn't see any where the 'firearm' figure was bigger than the 'completed' figure, other than Thailand's. It is clearly wrong by a huge factor. And so is their assessment that Thailand ranks 3rd in the world for death by firearms.

[Sotu]

Let's get logical, this is basic sociology 101. The more complex a society becomes the more social deviants it has. To exacerbate the situation holiday resorts attract a criminal element, which prey on unsuspecting tourists. What you end up with is Phuket and all the other holiday resorts around the world just like it.

[LivinLOS]

Look at any other country's figures for "Total homicides completed" and "Total homicides committed with a firearm" - I didn't see any where the 'firearm' figure was bigger than the 'completed' figure, other than Thailand's.

Isnt it exactly the same for south africa ??

[markg]

Look at any other country's figures for "Total homicides completed" and "Total homicides committed with a firearm" - I didn't see any where the 'firearm' figure was bigger than the 'completed' figure, other than Thailand's.

Isnt it exactly the same for south africa ??

What was it Churchill said? There are lies, dam_n lies, and statistics.

I'm not convinced that every single banana republic in the world accurately reports and records all crime in the same statistical way.

Then, of course, there are the stories behind the figures.

For example, if someone commits suicide with a firearm, is that recorded as a homicide? In some countries it is!

Do the large number of deaths in the south of Thailand also contribute to the figures? I'm guessing they do, yet down there, it's more a civil war than your common or garden murders.

I still think Phuket is as safe a place to live in as a foreigner than any other comparably sized place.

It's been a week since this unfortunate incident. Have there been anymore 'daily' shootings in Phuket since then as some of the worriers amongst us infer?

Maybe we could keep our own statistical log on here !

[LivinLOS]

I still think Phuket is as safe a place to live in as a foreigner than any other comparably sized place.

It's been a week since this unfortunate incident. Have there been anymore 'daily' shootings in Phuket since then as some of the worriers amongst us infer?

Maybe we could keep our own statistical log on here !

Just the couple in Phang Nga tho hey..

[JetsetBkk]

Look at any other country's figures for "Total homicides completed" and "Total homicides committed with a firearm" - I didn't see any where the 'firearm' figure was bigger than the 'completed' figure, other than Thailand's.

Isnt it exactly the same for south africa ??

So they are both wrong, although the Thailand error is much greater.

You are clearly squirming. Have a nice day.

[moe666]

The majority of tourist who come to Thailand, were ever they choose to play, will not suffer in any way other than a bad sunburn. Of course there is always the exception those who engage in risky behavior and some who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, sh-t happens.

In my neighborhood over the last 17 years there have been 5 shootings resulting in 4 deaths and several stabbings, and a mobile meth. lab.

Is my neighborhood unsafe? some people would say yes but I say no because all of this crime brought into the neighborhood by people who donot live here.

[LivinLOS]

I still think Phuket is as safe a place to live in as a foreigner than any other comparably sized place.

It's been a week since this unfortunate incident. Have there been anymore 'daily' shootings in Phuket since then as some of the worriers amongst us infer?

Maybe we could keep our own statistical log on here !

Just the couple in Phang Nga tho hey..

Now the stabbed receptionist..

With the 2 from that murder suicide that makes 4 new bodies since your post on the 15th.