3,000 Baht "investigative Fee" At Nan Immigration Office

[TongueThaied]

This is a follow-up to my original post on this subject made on July 29 at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Nan-Visa-non-o-Marriage-Extens-t284425.html. As you may recall, an official at the Nan immigration office tried to "assess" a 3,000 baht "investigative fee" at the time I applied for a marriage extension because I lived so far away in Phitsanulok. Following my request, he informed me that an official government receipt was not possible. I smiled, retained friendly demeanor and essentially told him that I had never heard of the fee, the Bangkok office had never heard of it, and I respectfully declined to pay it.

Most of you were very supportive, although a few, like Northern Goat, wished me ill for my "insensitive" actions and ignorance of Thai culture. Northern Goat hoped I would have to return repeatedly every 30 days as punishment for my niggardly obstinacy. I might add here, that it is unlawful in Thailand, as it is in most places in the West, to pay bribes or participate in extortion schemes – on either end. Had I paid, I would have been in violation of my host country's laws.

In any event, immediately upon arriving home from the first visit, I telephoned the Nan immigration office to learn the name of the top supervisor, Piyachai Ruanpang, who was in Chiangmai on the day of my visit. I then wrote him a letter (in Thai and English) giving him my background and explaining that, (1) I had never heard of a 3,000 baht investigation fee, (2) I knew it was against the law to pay an unlawful fee, and (3) I am a guest in this country, this is my home and I want to pay all taxes lawful taxes and fees to support the government and the Thai people, but do not want to violate the law. I told him I had been confused and worried by the incident and requested his guidance. I asked that, if there was such a fee, could he please write to me explaining its origin, and I would gladly pay it upon my return in 30 days. I also told him that, in any event, I understood that government budgets were often slim, and I would be honored if the investigator could be my guest in my home during his visit, and that I would even put some fuel in his tank. The letter is attached here, should you care to read it:

Letter_to_Thai_Immigration____Thai.pdf

A few days after I mailed the letter, Mr Ruanpang telephoned my wife and explained that he did not fully understand my letter, but that he had counseled his subordinates to look for better methods of investigation in long distance cases. A few days later, the case was assigned to a local police officer in our amphur, who happened to be the husband of a teacher at the same school where my wife teaches (a friend of my wife's). I live in a small village, so I was pretty much aware of the entire investigation. The police officer talked to the woman in charge of the local water supply, took a copy of her ID card and had her sign a statement. The same occurred with the puyibahn. Surprisingly, he never came to my house nor did he speak with any family members or me.

I returned to Nan on the appointed date, took a number and sat down in the waiting room. After about 8 minutes, an attractive woman came out and asked for my number and passport and took them to the back. After an additional 12-15 minutes, she returned, handed me my passport with the advice that everything was riap roi. One year marriage extension in hand, I hit the trail.

This whole affair produced some good fortune. A member of ThaiVisa, who read the short bio in my original post, contacted me as we had some things in common. Long story short, I visited him and his delightful Thai family on the trip back from Nan. I had a wonderful visit with them, picked up some great ideas and probably gained a few pounds to boot! But for the extortion attempt, we would never have met. All in all, I have been fortunate and am quite pleased with the outcome. If the Northern Goat will PM me, I will even buy him a celebratory beer next time I pass near his community!

Moral of the story: Let your conscience be your guide, wherever it takes you. I would not be judgmental about another's path, whether it involved payment or not. I can say with a certain amount of confidence, though, that if EVERYBODY, farang and Thai alike did refuse to pay extortion, it would stop. Rewarded behaviors are the ones that persist.

Thankfully, I will have no future visits to Nan. By the time I have further visa business, there will be an office in Muang Phitsanulok!

Thanks to every TV contributor. This process seemed like a complicated minefield in the beginning, but with everybody's stories and advice, it's now a done deal. Also, thanks for the advice about the unlawfulness of volunteering without a work permit. Who could have guessed that one must pay a fat fee to work for free? Now I don't do it anymore, though I feel bad for the community's loss.

[Mario2008]

Good to hear everything worked out well and you stood up against corruption.

[Lite Beer]

Yes. Thanks for getting back to us.

[JimmyTheMook]

Moral of the story: Let your conscience be your guide, wherever it takes you. I would not be judgmental about another's path, whether it involved payment or not. I can say with a certain amount of confidence, though, that if EVERYBODY, farang and Thai alike did refuse to pay extortion, it would stop. Rewarded behaviors are the ones that persist.

I like your style ,,,,

[Maestro]

...I returned to Nan on the appointed date, took a number and sat down in the waiting room. After about 8 minutes, an attractive woman came out and asked for my number and passport and took them to the back. After an additional 12-15 minutes, she returned, handed me my passport with the advice that everything was riap roi. One year marriage extension in hand, I hit the trail....

I wonder if the immigration officer who a month ago attempted to get an additional 3,000 Baht from you now no longer is assigned to the Nan office.

--

Maestro

[rodcourt49]

Well done 't-t' you did well and are to commended on your stand.

[phutoie2]

Thankfully, I will have no future visits to Nan. By the time I have further visa business, there will be an office in Muang Phitsanulok!

[/font]

Still no hard evidence of this, latest mutterings was an office will open in Phit on 7 Sep. An expat who visited Nan only a few days ago asked about this new office which will be for foreigners who live in the 3 - P's (Phitsanulok/Phichit/Petchabun) and no really positive answer forthcoming.

Perhaps the Immigration Offices do not fancy a move from Nan or will it be new staff etc from Bangkok.

Wait and see policy, but I do hope its up and running before May 2010

[Tod Daniels]

I had been wondering how this ordeal would pan out, and it’s encouraging to read about the positive outcome.

I was surprised in your original post how so many resident experts aka; "mindless, sheep-like, sock puppets", immediately jumped on the "you don't understand thai culture" bandwagon. I can’t help but wonder how those people live here without possessing a spine.

It was discouraging some even wished the O/P future grief in his visa endeavors for what they perceived as "rocking the boat", but in reality was only questioning the status quo in what was clearly a "pay a bribe" corrupt situation. I find it funny the head of the immigrations office either didn’t even have a clue about what the letter was in reference to, or wouldn’t acknowledge something like that could or does happen in that office.

In all the times I've shepherded people thru Soi Suan Plu, NOT once was I asked to contribute or pay anything other than the standard fees, even when sorting out visas that had some ‘issues’.

That the outlying immigrations offices can run rampant like they do casts a very negative light indeed.

Good on you for sticking to your guns, hope the new office is open by next year.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

FYI NorthernGoat got the boot from ThaiVisa a while back for being an overly aggressive and obsessive supporter of the redshirts.

[ballbreaker]

Good to hear everything worked out well and you stood up against corruption.

I second this comment.

[BlueSmurf]

Well done dude! Level headed and well thought out..Your letter was a lesson to maybe us all.Give the head man the choice and always give them a way out so not losing face.

Maybe the Goat man comes back under a new name! Bad penny and all that..Well done again.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well done dude! Level headed and well thought out..Your letter was a lesson to maybe us all.Give the head man the choice and always give them a way out so not losing face.

Maybe the Goat man comes back under a new name! Bad penny and all that..Well done again.

There's a watch out for the bugger.

[apetley]

Well done dude! Level headed and well thought out..Your letter was a lesson to maybe us all.Give the head man the choice and always give them a way out so not losing face.

Maybe the Goat man comes back under a new name! Bad penny and all that..Well done again.

There's a watch out for the bugger.

Yeah, keep an eye out for new posters with names like 'polar billy' or 'southern sheep'.

[thaiphoon]

Well done dude! Level headed and well thought out..Your letter was a lesson to maybe us all.Give the head man the choice and always give them a way out so not losing face.

Maybe the Goat man comes back under a new name! Bad penny and all that..Well done again.

There's a watch out for the bugger.

Yeah, keep an eye out for new posters with names like 'polar billy' or 'southern sheep'.

or 'Just Kidding'

[TongueThaied]

I had been wondering how this ordeal would pan out, and it's encouraging to read about the positive outcome.

I was surprised in your original post how so many resident experts aka; "mindless, sheep-like, sock puppets", immediately jumped on the "you don't understand thai culture" bandwagon. I can't help but wonder how those people live here without possessing a spine.

It was discouraging some even wished the O/P future grief in his visa endeavors for what they perceived as "rocking the boat", but in reality was only questioning the status quo in what was clearly a "pay a bribe" corrupt situation. I find it funny the head of the immigrations office either didn't even have a clue about what the letter was in reference to, or wouldn't acknowledge something like that could or does happen in that office.

In all the times I've shepherded people thru Soi Suan Plu, NOT once was I asked to contribute or pay anything other than the standard fees, even when sorting out visas that had some 'issues'.

That the outlying immigrations offices can run rampant like they do casts a very negative light indeed.

Good on you for sticking to your guns, hope the new office is open by next year.

I was talking about this incident to my wife yesterday and about some of the TV responses. She told me, for the first time, that the immigration official that called her after receiving my letter also asked sarcasticly, implying that I am self-righteous, "Everbody breaks the law; your husband never breaks the law?" Had I had the conversation with him I would have admitted that I broke the law on the drive to Nan by driving at a speed in excess of the legal limit. I also would have explained that there is a moral difference between breaking the law where there may a personal gain but no cost to another (like speeding or smoking a joint), and breaking the law for personal gain by taking something away from another (like theft or extortion). I would have explained that I often have lapses of the first instance, but rarely of the second. I would then have asked him about his own conduct. But that is fantasy. Best to simply move on and forget it.

[TongueThaied]

FYI NorthernGoat got the boot from ThaiVisa a while back for being an overly aggressive and obsessive supporter of the redshirts.

Ah, but it was his nature ("overly aggressive and obsessive"). Kind of hate to see him go. TV was probably his whole life.

[Vatman]

Never in the field of petty corruption was so much written by so many about so little.