soi41 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 bamboo2 wrote:"but a well placed source indicates TPC has already lost the ability to give members a new visa" Wrong. Midnovember I got a new 5 year visa. Expires November 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) My 5 year visa expires soon. Obviously I'm hoping for a replacement. I suspect that a Visa could be cancelled at any time. My suspicion is that even if the 5 year visa is renewed we may find ourselves in the future arriving in Thailand and only receiving a 30 day stamp as the visa's are no longer honored. IMO: The greatest question now is 'can we trust the government and immigration to honor any future visa agreement as a result of the TPC closure?' I can't which I why I believe the only viable option for myself is a full refund. However, I don't see how TPC can afford refunds. Edited January 8, 2012 by richard_smith237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) bamboo2 wrote:"but a well placed source indicates TPC has already lost the ability to give members a new visa" Wrong. Midnovember I got a new 5 year visa. Expires November 2016. Yes I had already answered that But the question is : what is your position regarding the closure? Edited January 8, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 My 5 year visa expires soon. Obviously I'm hoping for a replacement. I suspect that a Visa could be cancelled at any time. My suspicion is that even if the 5 year visa is renewed we may find ourselves in the future arriving in Thailand and only receiving a 30 day stamp as the visa's are no longer honored. IMO: The greatest question now is 'can we trust the government and immigration to honor any future visa agreement as a result of the TPC closure?' I can't which I why I believe the only viable option for myself is a full refund. However, I don't see how TPC can afford refunds. When is it to be renewed? You may pm me if you like I really believe that the decisions taken by the government will be respected as every law passed has been Therefore going for a long term visa is the best option as the refund will take years as there are no funds and I don't see why this money should be paid by the Thai citizens if that decision was made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoalex Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) i posted about current visa renewal on private section of temembers. yes, looks like them have not so much money for all refunds - it why some alternative offers (which can be free for them) is also some thing we need to talk about. Edited January 8, 2012 by leoalex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 i posted about current visa renewal on private section of temembers. yes, looks like them have not so much money for all refunds - it why some alternative offers (which can be free for them) is thing we need to talk about. I agree with this up to a certain extent as other options do not appear to be viable. However, offering alternative visa's (citizenship etc) is passing the buck somewhat. I suspect that passing off the Visa to another party could result in a very easy 'walk away' down the line unless there is sufficient supporting documentation which I doubt would be readily forthcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry Richard What do you agree with? ( it is genuine not a mockery) What would you go for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoalex Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I agree with this up to a certain extent as other options do not appear to be viable. However, offering alternative visa's (citizenship etc) is passing the buck somewhat. I suspect that passing off the Visa to another party could result in a very easy 'walk away' down the line unless there is sufficient supporting documentation which I doubt would be readily forthcoming. sure. citizenship (even with limitations as no voting/etc) is can be good and logical step to make Thailand Friends (as promoted at immigration desks everywhere in TH airports) even better friends and go away from 'refund scheme' which not suitable for gifts (somebody was gifted by this card) and from lot of discussions/money talks/news/etc. Also it way to end up this situation to both happiness and with good face & reputation even with closure of company. What about permanent residency, just read immigration forum here at thaivisa - it much more complicated, here is lot of requirements & limits, papers, rules like you will lost residency automatically if you not in country for 1 year, need to extend it, etc. Edited January 8, 2012 by leoalex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrdog Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I should rectify something I am surprised you are stating: the program is not on it's way to closure because not enough members have been enrolled (even though it is to factor in) but because money was spent and definitely not accounted for in the first 4/5 years. Interesting. I was unaware of any missing money. I recall hearing about money foolishly spent, but not about money that was unaccounted for. How much money are we talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoalex Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) starrdog : something tell me what we not get answer to this question. even if we get answer, it will not a good news. It why I looking into alternatives from start, which can be free for them but have price for us. Edited January 8, 2012 by leoalex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I should rectify something I am surprised you are stating: the program is not on it's way to closure because not enough members have been enrolled (even though it is to factor in) but because money was spent and definitely not accounted for in the first 4/5 years. Interesting. I was unaware of any missing money. I recall hearing about money foolishly spent, but not about money that was unaccounted for. How much money are we talking about here? It is what I meant , sorry! But, obviously that doesn't change the fact that the members cannot be held , therefore pay for, responsible for that Actually I think I have made up my mind and will include opposing closing the program along with other suggestions such as full compensation, with interests as suggested above plus visa as originally contracted This is going bak and forth and I think that it is time to face the music Edited January 8, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I know that this will not satisfy all members, as they have not reached fifty, it even might be a bit far fetched, depending on whether that is feasible from the ooint of you of the Thai laws, it would be worth a try to be put on the retirement visa with that twist: 1 + millions each have been paid by most members: as a partly compensation the show money should be waved ad vitam eternam. This costs nothing to the Thai people and evn though that money would be lost for the members to whomever has used it it would be viable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamboo2 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just ten years ago anyone could qualify for permanent residency simply by putting 10 million baht in a Thai government bank account from abroad and it remained your money unlike the elite 1M fee. They eliminated the 10 million baht program and now PR is impractical for most even if you have strong ties like being married to a Thai. Once you get to the PR level there is a clear path to citizenship. I would be happy if the visa guru's can correct me if I am wrong on any of this. Having to be in Thailand at least once a year may not be for everyone, but for those hat entered the elite program for the visa it would be ideal and certainly within the power of the government to offer. Keep in mind it was reported the government rejected refunding members when it came up before. Probably the best you can do is come up with a low cost solution for them that can make you satisfied. If they do it before drying up the last of our funds they might even have enough budget for it. While doing something may be better than nothing I don't have my hopes up. According to an article in the papers, TPC was ordered to do this survey a full year ago. So whomever called for it may not care by now. I do think it is important though you at least tell them what you want. That way they don't send us a letter about the termination package being a coupon book for 10% off selected massages and tell us they fought for it is on behalf of all members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Attention TE members I plan to ask for a meeting with an officer in charge (I mean in charge) at the company as I'd rather remit my grievances directly than sending a fax or a mail I will take this opportunity to hopefully have some questions answered Any member wishing to convey their remarks/ decision feel free to pm me with their names and membership numbers ( as, by now it is necessary to get out of the anonymity ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Attention all readers: Can anyone advise me with the possible choice of a legal consultant, in Thailand, able to take the case at the level it stands ? Although only an individual litigation can be done, I guess that some members would join in That would certainly help with, at least, what is conceivable even if no action were to be taken as an agreement would be much better than a legal action Thanks to everyone Edited January 9, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soi41 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 alyx, you are not my knight ! TE members are supposed to be friends of Thailand, and after reading most of the above posts I realize that most of you know very little or zero about how things are working here. It is the typical farang selfinflated opinion about their own importance. We are as important to the Thai goverment as ants, and if they decide to close for business, it is the end of story. With or without compensation. IMO the only consideration for the government is how to handle some VIP businessmen from other Asian countries, who actually brings business to the country. Sure take them to court, create pressuregroups and ofcourse they will listen to to a couple of hundred disgruntled farangs. NOT. So sit back, enjoy the ride and see where it takes us ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Soi41 You are entitled to think whatever suits you I was not addressing you but only the one interested in it , so just decline by remaining silent, thanks Please do not bring in respect or understanding of the way things work,. If you are satisfied with the situation, fine but I really do not need you to step in in such an aggressive manner. So please keep it civil As for being friends of Thailand, I really don't see what that has got to do with it. I have the deepest respect for the law, and abide by them whichever country I go to or else I do not go Ooops I almost forgot, if we were living in a world of fairness tthere would be no need for laws nor room for lawyers, friends or not Edited January 9, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I should add that, for someone who considers himself, I guess, for a friend of Thailand you have a very low opinion of its government Let me put it this way: the government is right to close the company because it ( used to?) cost money to the People and that is not fair I remind you that the same Governmemt refused to shut it down immediately as no viable solution had been given regarding the members so I believe there are some efforts put in the matter, this is I why I trust they will listen to whatever reasonable we come up with but if we stay put as you advise I am sure that what you describe will happen Edited January 9, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggie888888 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I have replied to the survey. Ticked option 3 "Other" and I expanded to say "considering all options including legal action". I was in contact with a member here KoreaElte who was already speaking to lawyers over 6 months ago. I don;t know if he is still active here but hopefully he will contribute here as I am intending to join him, if he is willing to some form of joint action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soi41 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 alyx, yes I consider myself a friend of Thailand, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the government. I have seen quite a few governments come and go, and the only difference between them is the level of incompetance and corruption. The only reason that TPC was not closed, as decided by the Abhisit government, was that TPC managed to drag their feet, so the election came in between and with the new government and the floods, the TPC-closure had to take the backseat. You make it sound like TPC has money of their own, that is not the case anymore, so whatever privilliges the members use today is paid by the Thai taxpayers. And as we all (?) know the rich in this country do not pay tax. So it is paid by the middleclass and the poor. Just like you, I would hate to loose a million baht, but knowing Thailand quite well, to go the legal route will be very expensive and could drag on for 10-15 years. When I bought the card 2003, I bought for only one reason: to buy land in my own name (which was one of the privilliges at that time), 4 months after paying my membership fee, the government moved the goalposts, so the landownership "disappeared" from the privilliges. At that time I was in touch with a Thai lawyer, who told me: Forget it. For the reasons mentioned above. Sorry if I came forward as agressive, not my intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Hey Soi 41 no worries I understand now the content of your first post but unlike the ownership of a land by foreigners, being granted a lifetime (or whatever name can be given to it) is not illegal ( I hope) That is why I think that it is worth trying to let the government know about it I do not recall implying that TPC had money , on the contrary, and that the reason why the program is closing ( closed?) this is why my request is about the visa and not the refund. I have repeatedly said that if money were to be given it would be taken from the Thai people and that is in no way fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) After reading the amazing post by Camarata on the guide to PR I have come to realise that none of us is able / entitled to it, let alone Citizenship so one has to look at other alternatives Edited January 10, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soi41 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 alyx When I mentioned in my first post, that most of you know very little about how things are working here, I was referring to some of you dreaming about getting a PR (or even citizenship). We are in Thailand, where most people don't even like us. Yes you get all the smiles that money can buy. I can tell you for the last 3 years, ZERO PRs have been issued, not because of a lack of qualified applicants, but because a publically self-admitted racist is the head of the Interior Ministry. So there is no political decission behind it, but he is not corrected by his fellow ministers because deep down they agree with him! Thais are the most xenophobic people I have ever met. Do not misunderstand me, I have lived here for many years and would not be anywhere else. Just being realistic about our status (or lack thereof) here. Our opinion counts for nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I understand your resentment but I am the idealistic type and I still believe that some fair deal could take place. As for PR, this idea proposed by some members was based on the fact that this kind of things had been done, in similar cases, in neighbouring countries but, as Mario had stated in a previous post some laws would have to be changed, and I do not see how/why this would happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humbug Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) of course tpc should drag their heels with the last loony government, it was politicallly motivated to try and pull down the programme and just before the new elections when they knew they would lose the election they accelerated their reactions on such issues like tpc like spoilt bratt children trying to wreak havoc before they hand over their toys, anyway is their any need to patronise other xpats with the' you dont know how things work here blah blah' on a seperate note they are still re-newing the 5 year visa, i had mine renewed recently and it took approx 10 mins from entering the room at suan plu to receiving the new visa in the passport, the first visa took around 40 mins, and this time i didnt even need an assistant from tpc, just went along by myself with the appointment already arranged Edited January 10, 2012 by humbug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoalex Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i can say what we just talking here. may be current visa will grandfathered (best option) - we still need to know it. but at least we need to talk here about all possible alternative offers (which can be free for them) but have value for us. also may be it good idea to check google news about acquiring/gifts of elite memberships to recognize and contact other members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoalex Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I just get answer from tpc. 1. now first stage gathering responses from current members which will submitted to Thai authorities for final decision. These responses can help them to make final decision (about refund amount?). 2. here no will any other compensations in form of limited privileges and services (even visa!!!) only refund. 3. tpc don't know what the amount of refund can be. So now most of things become little-bit more clear. No visa after tpc closure. In this case we need to ask for maximum possibly refund sum. But even getting refund most of members will not feels good about closure at such way. (like getting a note - you can not be a friend of thailand anymore, get money and forget about friendship and your long term relations with this country, get tourist visas to come back again). Edited January 10, 2012 by leoalex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamboo2 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This doesn't sound good; kill the program, don't grandfather the visa, and refund an amount 'deemed appropriate' from money the government has refused to supply already? I think it makes sense to get PR / citizenship in addition to refund under these circumstances. Armchair lawyers who balk at the idea is not good enough to me. That is TPC's problem to solve and there are precedents. If there is one time to push for residency in Thailand in your lifetime, it's probably right now. You never know unless you try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I have asked to be sent a mail of confirmation as, over the phone a minute ago, I was told that closure will lead to immediate cancellation of the visas That is unheard of Edited January 11, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyx Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) And the e mail I have just got says they do not know what the outcome of the current isssued visas will be They are in the same position as we are in: waiting not knowing as no CLEAR decision has been made Edited January 11, 2012 by alyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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