Housing In Pattaya

[philliphn]

I am getting close to retirement.

I want to retire in Pattaya. I have been to Pattaya 4 times for long vacations. I know that the general advice is rent first.

I want to find a good housing deal. You may ask what does that mean? For me it is an equation of cost, location, and space.

I know that you cannot own land. I understand if I buy a house as things are. I am only getting a 30 year lease. I accept this. I have no real choice about this. I know that you can own a condominuim.

I have a budget for housing of approximately $130.000 USD.

I like View Talay 6 because of location. The problem is that you would get a small amount of space. You could not have a dog. I will likely still end up at View Talay 6 or the Markland.

However, I have seen on Fair Properties and Bolton Real Estate sites Houses which I like the look off and of course provide more space. I don't want to be too far from the city entertainment areas. I want to be entertained. I can make a sort of compramise in what I like. I have seen very nice reasonably priced houses in Maprachan. Satahip, and Hatyai. My biggest concern is security. Buying a fairly nice place and getting it broken into frequently is a deal killer. Does any one live in these areas? What has been your experience living their? What would you advise?

Thank you in advance.

Edited November 23, 2009 by philliphn

[eljeque]

There is, has been and will always be an oversupply of property for sale and rent in Pattaya, and that is why it is preferable to rent, not just first, but always.

The owner of the house I rent, and three others in my Mooban wish he could find a buyer for his properties.

Rent a condo for several months while living here and you will be able to

learn a lot,

find out where you do not need to live...

meaning too close to the nightlife, you may tire of it more quickly than you expect

Which markets you need to be near, and which you don't

Where traffic is a real pain

Where the flooding occurs

Where there are water problems (city water on, city water off, on, off)

... and a host of other things that you are not aware of.

You will also learn about zoning or the lack thereof, enforcement and the lack thereof

Buya nice house in a nice mooban, and one day, in the adjoining mooban, behind your house, one house has roosters, or dogs, and and and....

Rent rent rent.

I have owned 7 houses here in 20 years, made a good profit on everyone of them and now I always rent.

I pay 8,000 / month for a house that could actually be sold for about 2.8M. Shop around and avoid agents. Drive drive drive and walk walk walk, and you will find good deals.

I can invest my money elsewhere and get a better return without any of the risks or expenses of owning a house/condo, and I am sure that you can do the same. In the West, we have rules about what can be done in the neighborhood, while here, it is not the same.

Condos: You do not get many sq. meters for the price.

Rent a house and you will do a lot better.

Best of luck to you.

Stay away from agents!! They do not provide protection nor insurance. They get their commission from the owners trying to rent the properties and then wash their hands.

You will make friends here, and they will be happy to show you around areas which will suit you. They will also have ived here for many years and provide insight into what is a good idea and what is not. Don't jump at anything, and don't buy.

Best of luck to you.

[ReThai]

Have a look on http://www.REThai.com - map based real estate listings...

IMO not far out of town is the place to be - just over the train tracks into the 'darkside' there's plenty of houses around that aren't expensive.

for 4Mthb i've seen nice 2-3 bedroom places with private pools.

just over the tracks you can find a place in a quiet area (away from the city noise) surrounded by all the usual services (food drink etc) and you're still only a 5 minute bike ride from beach road.

[ReThai]

i agree with eljeque, come here, rent a short term rental place and look around the streets where you'd like to live. not so much looking at houses, but looking at the surroundings. find an area that has everything your looking for and then start hunting around that area.

also if it was me i'd rent the place first, most places are for sale or rent, i'd find out the sale price, and then rent the place for 3-6 months, lots of houses / condos have issues that the home owner themselves can't fix (bad water supply, regular power outages, lots of loud bikes late at night, way too many soi dogs)...

I lived at view talay 5C, we had power outages about twice every month, sometimes for a few minutes, others for a whole day, there was also constant construction (individual condos are sold blank - empty, so when one sells, the owner builds the room) so every day there was construction work going on somewhere. nice view, nice place, but it became tedious.

we're big on security too, our last house we rented used to have a gold shop out front, so the place was fortified all over, loved it. our new place we're in now we've installed bars and large security doors on every window and door. It's not expensive to do, and i'd rather have it than not.

Edited November 24, 2009 by ReThai

[guzzi850m2]

Yes agree with other posts, rent first and get a fell for the surroundings and then make your decision.

I just sold my house and made a marginal profit due to bad times/over supply on the market (company owner ship). My house will cost app. 30 k pr month to rent, so I saved roughly 1 mill on rent during 3 years ownership.

My next house/land will be bought in my wife's name and I will then lease it from her for 30 years.

Regarding safety, we have an alarm system in the house and will have one installed in the next house as well and never had a problem.

Check Baan Chalita very close to Bangkok/Pattaya hospital, excellent location and you don't have to cross the dangerous Sukhumvit road when going down town for fun

[rocketmanbkk]

It depends what you want to do

Buying or building is an investment as long as you get it right and what people need to remember is that every property will sell for a price, whether that is the price the vendow wants is another story but every prpoperty has a price.

There are people in pattaya who have purchased or built and made money and had/have a nice place to live and a great investment.

There will always be lots of places to rent/buy but renting is Ok for the short term. If you are looking 3+ years then buying is the way to go. Thats my opinion anyway. I have property in Pattaya, Bangkok and up North and I am happy, but each to their own.

[eljeque]

from the above poster

"IMO not far out of town is the place to be - just over the train tracks into the 'darkside' there's plenty of houses around that aren't expensive. ...... for 4Mthb i've seen nice 2-3 bedroom places with private pools."

FOUR MILLION THAI BAHT!!!!

For that amount, there are four bedroom, three bathroom homes with everytihing in the world in them including a pool on 80TW. FOUR MILLION THAI BAHT!!!!,,,,, That is a f=ortun nowadays for a house on the other side of Suk. Sure, a lot of people will ask that amount, but a smart buyer can search and find an incredible home for 4M.

[plasticpig]

name='eljeque' date='2009-11-25 22:47:42' post='3164164']

from the above poster

a lot of people will ask that amount, but a smart buyer can search and find an incredible home for 4M.

Smart people rent a house, not buy one.

[eljeque]

I agree. Smart people rent.

And, I noted a "smart buyer" not a smart person.

I was showing that 4M was a lot of money and could be used to acquire an incredible home, not something as simple as a 2 bdrm 2 bth house with a pool on the dark side.

Mr. Poster... You will be far better off to rent rent rent.

[longball53098]

If you rent a nice place for 20k a month you can live there or anywhere for 16 and a half years based on that 4 million baht you want to spend. You have the luxury of moving to a new place every few years and never have to do the owners work of maintaining the place.

Rent!

[barrybike]

good thread ...learned from it thanks.....

[eljeque]

Many if not most of the people who come here are already deep into the mature stages of life, and do not need to BUY a house which is usually something bought for many decades. Most of these people do not have many decades.... plus ownership has a lot of headaches which older people do not want to deal with, but younger people can tolerate.

I have some friends who have onwed houses here for many (18) years, and are happy that they bought them, not that they were great investments, but simply because they could make any changes and do as they wished to their homes.

Now that they are on in years, they leave the houses to their girlfriends and or their maids.

[Rimmer]

Flaming post deleted.

Keep it nice guys please.

[guzzi850m2]

Some says rent, well it depends of your family status and age. For me (47 year old) it is far better to own than rent, I have a infant son and my wife want another kid. So for us a relative big 2 story house is appropriate which will cost app. 35-40k to rent in a good location (NO thanks).

As one mention, you can rebuild the house/garden for infinity just as you please when you own.

Ownership is very tricky in LOS, but never heard about anybody who got shafted, if just the Thais would ease off a little bit and let foreigners buy up to 1 rai of land, many people would be happy, but that have been discussed many times before and will properly never happen.

[rolypie]

Rent Rent Rent !

[guzzi850m2]

Rent Rent Rent !

Bullshit balloon spotters rent.

So when I am 77 years old and my lease expires I will see you in Center Condo (or something similar) if it is still standing, he-he.

[manarak]

As always, many people give advice without explaining what the options are.

As a foreigner, you aren't allowed to own land, but you can fully own the buildings.

The following options therefore only pertain to the land ownership problem.

First, why buy instead of rent?

If you rent, especially if it is a nice property, your money will evaporate in about 14 to 17 years. This means in that time you will pay in rent the value of the property, plus, the rent is likely to go up over time, so that is a major drawback for people planning to stay long time.

It means that for a home costing 10 million baht today, you will have paid approx. a total of 30 million during 30 years of renting.

Then, the value of the property is expected to grow. I know much people here are sceptical about that, but since the current investment climate is not good, current prices can probably be bargained down by 30% if you come with cash. Long term, the value will probably have more than doubled in 20 or 30 years.

So, if you own it, you make a good deal and have something you can transmit to your children.

If you do not intend to stay for long, or if you only need a 2 room apartment or condo, renting may be a good solution too.

The obvious advantage is that you can walk away easily and won't be cheated about the ownership.

CONDO: Condos are legal to buy for foreigners but are very expensive in price (approx. double price of a house with 1 rai of land for comparable comfort), plus most owners get shafted on the price of utilities. A house owner pays 3.5 baht per unit of electricity, while condo owners often pay 4.5, 5, sometimes 6. Same story with the other utilities.

Also, you can potentially have permanent trouble with the management company which will either not be performing services as agreed or be trying to unduly charge you.

Then Condos have no land and those with private pool are very rare (think 30 million penthouse on the top floors of those high-rises). No garden, pool, barbecue place is a bummer for me.

FULL OWNERSHIP:

You can setup a company with nominee shareholders who for example have pre-signed blank share transfer papers (which is also illegal to do).

It is getting more and more difficult to do since the Thai administration is now requiring the Thai shareholders to show where their money came from.

So far, no crackdown occured, and as far as I know, there has been no depossession, except in some legal cases where land assets was to be legally transferred to a foreigner (like someone died and a foreigner is the heir). In those cases, the courts ruled that the heir cannot keep the land and must sell it within a number of months.

Illegal in the spirit of the Law, source of constant stress because of uncertainty

PSEUDO-OWNERSHIP:

In this case you have a Thai person purchase the land for you, and you take some sort of contractual guarantee from the Thai person, for example granting the Thai person a mortgage with which that persons buys the land. The mortgage is guaranteed with the land and is inscribed on the land deed, no interests would be payable, but instead accrue the value of the mortgage (accruing Mortgage debt could potentially also be illegal, and the increased value would have to be inscribed every year on the land deed). The mortgage contract rules that the Thai person must sign any sale documents and that the mortgage is deemed reimbursed.

This is not something you want to do with a standard Thai person. The setup is very complex and the potential for trouble is just too great, and there will be a lot of people who will open their hands in the process (Lawyers), and too much people knowing about the deal.

While the mortgage will survive the death of the Thai person, it is not guaranteed that the special regulations of the contract will be enforceable in court because they circumvent the law on land ownership. Plus the resolution of the mortgage by a court will transfer the formal land ownership to you and thus results in you being forced to sell the land where your house stands on.

So, in theory yes (in a country with strong private Law, which Thailand is not) - in practice no... Not recommended.

PSEUDO-OWNERSHIP with PROPERTY SWAP abroad:

You find a person with Thai passport who owns real estate abroad, either in your home country or another country with a dependable legal system.

You do a swap: you give the person money, he buys the land in Thailand, and you make a private contract about signature obligations guaranteed by his property in your homecountry. The person with the Thai passport will earn a sizeable retainer for the transaction, and you protect your investment. Incase the person does not sign papers as requested within a set period of time, you can execute his property abroad.

This is fairly bulletproof, since the guarantee on the foreign property will survive the person.

You are not guaranteed to keep the land in Thailand, but you are guaranteed to protect your investment.

An inconvenience is that if that person dies, you will have to find new arrangements.

If you double this arrangement with an usufruct, the beneficiaries of the usufruct will nevertheless be guaranteed to be able to stay on that land until they die (i.e. for example your children).

I think this is a good solution, but the rich persons with Thai passport are a rare find.

QUASI-OWNERSHIP through long term rent:

Everyone knows the safe 30 years lease and the risks of the speculative 30+30 and 3x30 schemes.

The 30+30 schemes are based on private law and not inscribed on the land deed (only the first 30 years lease). If the lessor dies, the private obligation to make a new 30 year lease dies too, so the probability that there will never be a second 30 year lease is pretty high.

But... did you know Thai Law knows usufruct?

Usufruct is a legal concept dating back to the roman empire, dividing ownership of real estate into fructus, usus and abusus, meaning profit, use and ownership. If a person owns fructus and usus rights on a land, the person which has the ownership could still sell the land, but the buyer would have to take over the usufruct servitude. Usufract can only be granted to physical persons.

The usufruct is inscribed onto the land deed, and can be granted to one or several persons, and stays in force until the last of these persons dies.

If you have children, you can inscribe them on the deed.

An usufruct is about the best protection you can get, and is guaranteed to last until you die.

So... if you like the 30+30 idea, get an usufruct on house and land as well, and you're safe.

But personally, I would include more beneficiaries for the usufruct than just one or two persons, and if possible people of your family who are not living in Thailand... a life is cheap to take.

FINALLY, if you want to move long term to the LOS I would suggest renting some place for the first months, and in this time you will be able to scout the area and learn about some things which are not obvious at a first glance. What has been written earlier about floods, roads, noise, etc. is very valid.

Another reason is that the best deals are not to be found on the internet or with agents.

Some properties, while being for sale with agents, have "for sale" signs written in Thai, sometimes with lower prices than advertised !!

Edited November 26, 2009 by manarak

[rocketmanbkk]

I think that everyone should be happy with what they do - either buy a property or rent. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. In buying you will hopefully gain in equity but need to maintain it. The price may go down, who knows. In renting, you are spending for something that will never be yours, if you are happy with that then great.

I think on the darkside there are some great houses and if you want a decent size plot with a 3/4 bed, 3/4 bath house with pool and a good internal size also 250sm+ then the dark side is now a good place to be. 10 years ago it was deserted but people have cottoned onto to this place and I reckon in another 10 years it will be busier and have more facilities and resident.

Good luck to you with whatever you decide.

[Kadafi]

I would say RENT.

Having stayed in Pattaya for 5 years i have continued to rent and now currently living in my 3rd house in 5 years. Renting gives you that easy option to move on if you need something bigger or prefer to change location. Also if anything goes wrong with the property you can just call up the owner and its there problem to deal with. If i was to buy in Thailand i would need to sell my property which im currently renting out in London, for future growth and safe investment i would rather my property in London than in Pattaya....

[Guderian]

I've been renting since I moved here in 2004. Occasionally, I do wish that I owned a place so that I could do it up in my own style, and didn't have to part with a large bundle of banknotes every month. But there are drawbacks to ownership as well, as already discussed above.

Once you've lived here a while you will find that you should be able to negotiate a considerably lower rent than a 'newbie' would be able to do. I'm now back in the same condo that I first moved to in 2004, but the room is nicer and on a much higher floor. I'm now paying 30% less in rent than I did in 2004. (It would have been nice if the pound hadn't collapsed by 30% in the same period, but one can't have everything...) That's with a Thai owner, too. From what I have seen, the Thais can be less greedy and more realistic than farang owners - though certainly it's not always the case.

The real benefit of renting to my mind is simply the flexibility to move. You get a bad neighbour moves in next door, or to the room above your condo, and if the management won't sort it out then you just pack your bags and leave. Unlike the west, it can be very difficult here to sell a second-hand property. If you buy a place, it's wise to think of the money as sunk, because unless you are lucky you will probably not get anything like the same amount back if you are forced to sell it. Renting, you pay more over a 20 year period, but you can move any time.

Also, there's the little question of Thailand's long-term political stability. I don't intend opening a political debate here, but someone important will pass away one of these days, and Tacky Shinegra is sitting just across the Cambodian border waiting for his chance. He's probably not going to feel very friendly (IMHO) towards westerners after the way he has been treated, especially by the British government. If the worst comes to the worst (and I doubt if it will, but it's best to consider all eventualities) then I can just pack my bags and move to Sihanoukville or Cebu. If my life savings were invested in a nice bungalow here, then it's not so easy to leave.

Everyone will feel differently about these things, and what they think is important and what is not. Only you can decide for yourself. Good luck with it.

[Pattaya46]

I agree. Smart people rent.

I have owned 7 houses here in 20 years, made a good profit on everyone of them and now I always rent.

Do as I say, not as I did...

Conclusion : You don't want too many people to buy because you want continue to make "good profit". Thanks for us

CONDO: ... plus most owners get shafted on the price of utilities. A house owner pays 3.5 baht per unit of electricity, while condo owners often pay 4.5, 5, sometimes 6. Same story with the other utilities.

...Condos with private pool are very rare ...

No difference on utilities. Every condo owner nowadays can have direct contract with the electricity company and pay about 3 baht/unit. Same for water but generally not worth it due to low volumes. In the other way, charges in condo or very small but maintaining a house is not cheap...

Condo with pool rare ? In condo of Pattaya ? Are you jocking ?

[eljeque]

I agree. Smart people rent.

I have owned 7 houses here in 20 years, made a good profit on everyone of them and now I always rent.

Do as I say, not as I did...

Conclusion : You don't want too many people to buy because you want continue to make "good profit". Thanks for us

CONDO: ... plus most owners get shafted on the price of utilities. A house owner pays 3.5 baht per unit of electricity, while condo owners often pay 4.5, 5, sometimes 6. Same story with the other utilities.

...Condos with private pool are very rare ...

No difference on utilities. Every condo owner nowadays can have direct contract with the electricity company and pay about 3 baht/unit. Same for water but generally not worth it due to low volumes. In the other way, charges in condo or very small but maintaining a house is not cheap...

Condo with pool rare ? In condo of Pattaya ? Are you jocking ?

Not quite. If I said to buy gold three years ago at $650, but not to buy it now at $1,180, I am not saying "Do as I say, not as I do" by any means. That was then and this is now. The world's financial situation is far different now than it was in 1988 when I bought my first home, and over the yers when I have bought other ones.

[Tarqin]

Rent, rent and rent again.

There is and has as long as I have been here a massive oversupply of rental properties in Pattaya which means you can rent a very nice house for pennies that would cost you a fortune to buy if you could which as you say you can not.

However renting is not only an economic matter.

Good ares can go bad very quickly. You may live in paradise and then a Thai developer may decide to build condos infront and both sides of you so you will be living in a building site for years. Landlords problem move. Decent houses may not be maintained and if Thai owned almost certainly won't be. They will tart it up for a new tenant but will not mend a leak for an existing one. Short term mentality. If he won't fix it its his problem move. You may live in paradise and then a drunken fool who wants to party 24 hours a day may move in next door. No one will do anything to stop him. Landlords problem move.

You get the point?

[manarak]

CONDO: ... plus most owners get shafted on the price of utilities. A house owner pays 3.5 baht per unit of electricity, while condo owners often pay 4.5, 5, sometimes 6. Same story with the other utilities.

...Condos with private pool are very rare ...

No difference on utilities. Every condo owner nowadays can have direct contract with the electricity company and pay about 3 baht/unit. Same for water but generally not worth it due to low volumes. In the other way, charges in condo or very small but maintaining a house is not cheap...

Condo with pool rare ? In condo of Pattaya ? Are you jocking ?

umm... you know lots of condos with 4 BR and PRIVATE pools? the 7 x 15 meters style of pool?

where are they and how much do they cost?