50 Hz V 60 Hz

[seedy]

Any downside to operating 60-Hz equipment from 50-Hz ? Voltage converters are available cheaply, but do nothing to change frequency. I realize motors will run faster, but am interested in any damage to electronic equipment i.e stereo amps, cd player, TV, battery chargers etc. Thanks

[givenall]

Most of the electronic work fine, if any clock and the clock is synchronized the 50Hz the time will be slow. The only issue is with the appliance with motors.

[Maizefarmer]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

[Jdietz]

Newer low-power equipment will be fine. Everything with switching power supplies will be fine. Transformers can saturate at lower frequency though, so your high powered amp may overheat. Synchronized motors will run slow, all motors also can overheat due to core saturation.

So, the right answer is: it depends

[PattayaParent]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

So try plugging 110V equipment into a 220V socket and see what happens!!

[garyh]

Induction motors will run slower not faster providing the voltage is correct, maybe okay in some cases and others not okay.

[Benjie]

50Hz/60Hz in terms of TV?

[garyh]

50Hz/60Hz in terms of TV?

look at the specifications for the TV, most likely will take both but check to be sure.

[seedy]

Thanks to all. My biggest concern is a Harmon Kardon Citation 16 power amp - circa 1975. 150-W per channel. Can't seem to get any info from the manufacturer - probably the techs there were not even born when this amp was made. Can a person change transformers - as Jdietz pointed out they may overheat ?

[Maizefarmer]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

So try plugging 110V equipment into a 220V socket and see what happens!!

If your reply is in relation to my comment regards "ac input becomes a non-issue" - that is in respect of the frequency the ac input becomes a non-issue (i.e. 50Hz versus 60Hz) - for the reasons I gave. The OP's question was about frequency - not current or voltage(?)

[Harcourt]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

So try plugging 110V equipment into a 220V socket and see what happens!!

No, don't try it. It's a completely different issue.

[Gary A]

I had a Sony stereo that I brought from the US. I had it plugged into a transformer. My girlfriend wanted to listen to it in the kitchen. She unplugged it from the transformer, carried it to the kitchen and plugged it into a 240V socket. She told me it gave a little puff of smoke and that was it.

[dominator]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

Have to disagree. Thai appliances are not double earthed, as in the UK, reversing the negative/positive will make certain appliances 'live'. This is why in the USA the same flat type plugs have one prong larger that the other to ensure it is inserted in the scoket the correct way round.

[Crossy]

She told me it gave a little puff of smoke and that was it.

All electronics engineers are trained that THE single most important component in any piece of electronics is the smoke. It's obvious really, let out the smoke and it stops working

I concur with the above, MOST kit is OK on 50Hz but watch for overheating motors and transformers, particularly with older or 'cheap' items.

[richm7]

Wow, there are some pretty arcane responses to this simple question. Here's the simple answers. All those Phd's (Calcutta - failed) out there are just confusing the issue.

• Most regular straightforward electronic equipment will be fine, so long as you make sure they can take 220/240 volts or you feed them 110v from a readily available auto-transformer. As has been stated, they don't really care about the frequency. Make sure the auto transformer is adequately rated. Do NOT use a 500W transformer for a 500W load, de-rate to a maximum 75%. A word of warning; auto transformers do not isolate, so there is a real risk of lethal shock from one of these devices if you are grounded (earthed). Mind you, the same applies to your outlet............
  
• Anything containing an ac motor will run slow, induction or synchronous. Again, assuming correct voltage. Many turntables use synchronous motors and can be easily rewired for 220v but if you do that you'll need a new pulley if the original was for 60Hz.
  
• If your TV came from NA forget it. It is NTSC (Never Twice the Same Color) and TV's are PAL here in Thailand. It won't tune either. If it is a nice new flat screen you might get lucky and it will be universal, voltage/frequency, NTSC/PAL/SECAM 'n all. However, manufacturers have an infuriating habit of selling universal kit everywhere but in the US, so beware.
  
• If you've got a mains driven clock still you must be over 100 years old, so it doesn't really matter. You won't see the clock any more than you'll see the puff of smoke when you plug it in.
  
• Electric razors are usually multi-voltage. Electric toothbrushes are not. You'll need a 50W transformer for them.
  
• Computer powers supplies are usually universal.
  
• Phone Chargers are universal.
  
• Anything driven by a wall wart needs to be checked. Generally speaking, if the wall wart is heavy (transformer), it won't work, if it is light (electronic), it will. Note I said generally speaking. Always check first.
  
• Forget white goods from NA.
  

If you do end up with a few transformers dotted about, tape the plug to the transformer. If you don't, I can guarantee that your other half will plug it straight into the mains socket and you will likely end up with a costly repair or write off. And a funny burning smell.

Core saturation and slip in induction motors is for the nerds forum.

[lopburi3]

Before it becomes DC it must pass through a built in transformer. That transformer on US items is likely to be rated for 60Hz power only (as construction is cheaper). In such a case it is likely to overheat when run on 50Hz even if the voltage has been reduced to its rated input. Old audio equipment often did have well over rated transformers so do not believe it will be an issue in this case (if not running full power) - but for most things sold at low price the transformer will overheat.

[Maizefarmer]

Before it becomes DC it must pass through a built in transformer. That transformer on US items is likely to be rated for 60Hz power only (as construction is cheaper). In such a case it is likely to overheat when run on 50Hz even if the voltage has been reduced to its rated input. Old audio equipment often did have well over rated transformers so do not believe it will be an issue in this case (if not running full power) - but for most things sold at low price the transformer will overheat.

oh what complete twaddle....................... some absolute crap has been written on this thread.

[garyh]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

Have to disagree. Thai appliances are not double earthed, as in the UK, reversing the negative/positive will make certain appliances 'live'. This is why in the USA the same flat type plugs have one prong larger that the other to ensure it is inserted in the scoket the correct way round.

Negative and positive on AC???????????????? Don't you mean active and neutral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soutpeel]

Negative and positive on AC???????????????? Don't you mean active and neutral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crossy]

Before it becomes DC it must pass through a built in transformer. That transformer on US items is likely to be rated for 60Hz power only (as construction is cheaper). In such a case it is likely to overheat when run on 50Hz even if the voltage has been reduced to its rated input. Old audio equipment often did have well over rated transformers so do not believe it will be an issue in this case (if not running full power) - but for most things sold at low price the transformer will overheat.

oh what complete twaddle....................... some absolute crap has been written on this thread.

Which part of Lops post is twaddle MF?

[Tywais]

Which part of Lops post is twaddle MF?

I was wondering the same as I see nothing wrong with the explanation. Though when I saw DC and transformer I had to do a re-read.

[Maizefarmer]

I have quite a few USA manufactured products in the house - to include both AC and DC "white goods" and entertainment hardware - and have never experienced any running/reliability/thermal or heating problems associated with running them here in Thailand @ 50Hz (although I should add that all my domestic AC is 50Hz gennie generated - not AC mains), versus at/on their design spec @60Hertz - and this includes the washing machine, which is specifically spec'd to run @ 60hz and not as is common with many white goods nowadays "50Hz - 60hz".

Manufacturers centralise much of their "white goods" production in plants that cover worldwide geographical regions - the goods come off the same production line and they do not as rule substitute components for 50Hz versus 60Hz depending on retail destination - its far cheaper to use components that run equaly comfortably at both ends of the internationaly used AC freq's (which are to the best of my knowledge either 50Hz or 60Hz - irrespective of voltage).

Yes, comments regards over heating of certain ac motor designs are quite true, in practise though the incidence of such problems are really quite small with modern "white goods", mainly because of what I said above, but also because of poor regulation of national frequency outputs. Measure the variation in the Thai ac system - I have on a couple occassions. I remember one occassion quite well - I was helping a Thai farmer address a problem with a milking system which used a rather large vacuum pump - the motor kept burning out - and the reason we ultimately discovered? huge flucuation in ac frequency, I mean really big - as much as 43Hz on the low side and as much as 67 on the high side (the standard in Thailand is 50). So we got the official electricity man out - who told us that actaully in Thailand if you measure flucuation over a period of say a week or so, it is not uncommon to find in rural areas inparticular, regional circuits running for extended periods as low as 42Hz - 43Hz, or as high as 58Hz - 60Hz! It's not unusual, and manufacturers aware of this issue and factor for it as a tolerence in the design spec of "white goods".

Against the background of the OP's question, which was in respect of "hardware" that is primarily dc driven - it is even les of an issue: it takes a far greater flucuation in AC frequency then the figures above to start upsetting things like tellies, hi-fi's, cd's players, amps dvd's ... and whatever else one can think of. As you will undoubtably know, they all have ac/dc circuits, rectification and regulation, and by and large ample cap reserve's - although I do often wonder how a lot of the cheap Asain made consumer type audio/Tv equeipment lasts as long as it does, bearing in mind the tolerences in many of the circuit board components used, but that on the other hand illustrates even more so the durability and tolerence in ac/dc electrical goods - which is primarily what the OP was asking about. Run some basic electrical calc's - off the top of my head, I would think you'd need something like 35Hz - 40Hz over an extended period of time before the transformer in your average TV or Hi-Fi started playing up to the point where the rectification/bridge circuits that are in just about every domestic box that produces a "noise" or a "picture", were unable to keep the regulators going properly or the cap's smoothing out correctly ........

Yes - the potential exsists, in practise though - [very] unusual/unlikely with domestic white goods - and even more unusual with domestic ac/dc type products ..... I just don't belive its the problem many of the replies to the OP's question presented it as been (against the background the OP was reffering to).

[seedy]

Many thanks for all the replies. I find this amp usually running at about 10 - 20 W output. The nice thing in having 150 W available is to handle the transients better - those quickly needed high-power bursts that are needed in music, at least the kind I listen to. From what I have read - and learned, I believe that with a quality voltage converter that the frequency will be a non-issue. To be sure, I will remove the top cover and keep an eye on the transformer for any hi-heat issues.

Again - my thanks to all. Take care.

[garyh]

You could be completely sure by getting a 110 volt sine wave inverter and running it with a battery and charger plugged into the 240 volt mains. This will also keep working in a blackouts till the battery runs flat. If you had money to burn you can buy gear large enough to run your entire house this way.

[Maizefarmer]

Thanks to all. My biggest concern is a Harmon Kardon Citation 16 power amp - circa 1975. 150-W per channel. Can't seem to get any info from the manufacturer - probably the techs there were not even born when this amp was made. Can a person change transformers - as Jdietz pointed out they may overheat ?

Your issue here seedy - and taking into consideration what you said in your 2nd posting about overheating - has nothing to do with frequency - it's about the power reserve, and if you are saying that there is that much avalible in reserve (i.e. around 150watts), my guess is, is you whip off the cover of the Amp you will find exactly what I reffered to in my earlier comments i.e. some very big capacitors, and quite possibly as much as 4 to 6 of them - they'll look like huge big aluminim tubes usualy blue or black in colour.

Thats's where all this reserve power is kept till it is needed, at which point it is dumped very fast into the final stage of amplification. Been an old HK amp it's probebrly all Class A, with a bit of Class B - running in Class A mode most of the time, then when that 150watt or so is needed for the brief moment of a second or so, all that power reserve in the cap's gets dumped into the circuit and it works as a Class B. I'm guessing - check the size of the heatsinks on the amp - they'll nice and big with lots of big tin trannies poking out of them if it's primary Class A with Class B hanging in the background to help out when needed.

Heat - Class A is the most inefficient conversion form in amp circuits - all amp circuits, not just audio amp circuits, anything that requires power reserves - in terms of thermal management A runs far hotter than class B, or C or D ect ect ...... thats the nature of the beast, but engineers love using class A in audio amps because it is so fast/quick to respond to transients and as such offers the best sound repro' quality (though trannie developements since the 70's has seen class B and C devises now starting to catch up in both terms of speed and quality - and not suffering the large loss in heat output that comes with A).

Anyway, enough about the amp theory lecture, the point is your ac frequency is not going to be an issue for you here - all that heat here is a function of the dc side of the circuits in your amp - mainly the final stage transisitors and the speaker load they are driving: 4 Ohms and more and things will be fine - just try driving a pair of old Quad electrostatic speakers - they can drop down to less than 1 ohm when certain types of music is played through them - then you'll see just how hot your amp gets and what its capable of!!!.

Nope, ac input frequency is a non-issue in this type of application - you'll be just fine - garuntee you enjoy the music!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[seedy]

Thanks MF

As always - your posts are right on the money. It is appreciated.

Be well

Dale

[dominator]

None whatsoever - all ac current that goes into domestic entertainment hardware gets rectified into dc, then smoothed through a bunch of cap's, and then regulated - so the ac input component ibecomes a non-issue - unless in the unlikely event you're running some entertainment hardware that was designed to work on a plane - where all the ac circuits are designed to run at/off 420Hertz!!!!!!

Have to disagree. Thai appliances are not double earthed, as in the UK, reversing the negative/positive will make certain appliances 'live'. This is why in the USA the same flat type plugs have one prong larger that the other to ensure it is inserted in the scoket the correct way round.

Negative and positive on AC???????????????? Don't you mean active and neutral!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, 'live' & 'Neutral' in UK, negative & positive are battery terminals.