Swastikas And Thai Ignorance

[MiG16]

just take it down a notch everyone and lets not take this where it shouldnt go

happy new year! (soon)

[Roadman]

....snip....

If the iconology is being used to glorify Naziism, and thus perhaps its message, then it is wrong (as the message was evil) - if its just a pretty pattern on a T-Shirt then its just ignorant. Schools should be aware that such iconology would be detrimental (and likely to be picked up in the world's press) and thus should change it.

I disagree. "Evil" is a matter of opinion. This is why I use the stars and stripes: many people say America's actions are evil.....see, it's an opinion. But should Thais be told not to wear the red, white, and blue symbol? No, of course not, so why not wear the swastika. It has no bearing on them.

....snip....

I think few people would regard the Nazi message as anything other than evil, whereas most would consider the message that comes with the stars and stripes (freedom etc) is far from evil. The message may not be true (that certainly is subjective) and the country's actions may or may not be in keeping with that message, but the message is what is given by a symbol. I really don't think we can confuse what the emotions that Nazi symbolism induces with the star spangled banner.

Again that is a matter of opinion. Would Phan Thi Kim Phuc and her Vietnamese villagers think of any thing being of more an evil when Napalm was raining down on them from American bombers than those poor souls being herded into gas chambers by the Nazi. The majority of us have the luxury of only having to consider the evil and not have to live through it or die from it.

I don't have a problem with Thai's lack of knowledge of what happened in WW2 on the other side of the world in Europe. This after all is Asia where people are only getting access to the resources and knowledge that the western world have had for far longer.

Or if they are using a Swastika with good intent ie - in pursuit of Buddhism.

I would hope however that they did have at least a school history grounding in one artrocity thou and that should be the one in their own Asian realm on their doorstep in Pol Pot. Just so that evil by mankind on one another is understood, and hopefully can be minimised with that knowledge.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Roadman

[Sherlocke]

" Communists committed crimes that dwarf Hitler's." - such a childish comment

[canuckamuck]

Having school kids wear nazi arm bands at a sports day could only happen in a country where the level of education is as pathetic as it is in Thailand. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that is simply poor taste and offensive to a great many visitors to the country.

This speaks more about The Thai cultural fog than it does about Nazi's.

[GuestHouse]

This speaks more about The Thai cultural fog than it does about Nazi's.

Spot on.

[Oberkommando]

The ultra Nationalist yellow shirts PAD's political party (New Politics Party) symbol.

[airplane]

The ultra Nationalist yellow shirts PAD's political party (New Politics Party) symbol.

Truly disgusting old wine in a not so new bottle.

[gvallee2]

we shouldnt be concerned about a bunch of kids dressing up a fake nazi (with the swastiska being on the wrong side)

We should be concerned that, while thai students are some of the less educated kids in the whole world, they still have dress up days even at 17years old while in the west most school have absolutely no dressup days besides halloween at any age(and you still have classes)

When i lived right by the university it seemed like every 3 days they had a day off with a music band and some girls dancing.. i mean how are they supose to learn anything?

Edited December 31, 2009 by gvallee2

[givenall]

I hate the facts, people, organizational and country keep reminding us about the past tragedies just take advantages of them for gaining power of influencing the public. I love what George Carl (rest in Peace) once said. “Remember the past injustices and tragedies by creating memorial and then JUST MOVE ON”

[siggie2]

You may be right or wrong but not worth getting your knickers in a twist.Time movers on ans so we all should

Right. not too long ago some countries had whites only facilities, women were preluded from various professions etc. Time does march on, but the need for adaption and advancement does not end. How would a Thai feel if some of the old caricatures from the 1930's appeared on billboards.? Bare chested village girls drawing water is innocent enough and part of Thailand's history. Would it be okay to put up billboards celebrating that aspect of Thailand's history?

I just said time moves on and so we all should so there wont be any tits on billboards.You could say that about any country in the world.All the crap with ww11 happened over 60 years ago and i know that there were millions of killings and the same with murders.Did the same happen in Iraq a few years ago,and many murders too???,thanks to the Yanks and Brits mainly

[Garry9999]

Having school kids wear nazi arm bands at a sports day could only happen in a country where the level of education is as pathetic as it is in Thailand. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that is simply poor taste and offensive to a great many visitors to the country.

This speaks more about The Thai cultural fog than it does about Nazi's.

I agree.

[Pakboong]

There are many who feel the Japanese were the most brutal during world war two and the Thais have reason to remember at least to some degree the Japanese presence. The last time I looked, the rising sun still flies above the Japanese Embassy and nobody is writing a book about it. We need to get over this stuff. Seriously, who cares if these kids want to dress up as Cowboys and Indians or Nazis and Dutch resistance fighters. The Thais have no reason to give any thought to the ethnic minorities that get bent out of shape over this.

[noot]

yeah , get over it guys.

thais love all ! eskimos, jew, nazis, chinese, everyone is welcome here!

Edited December 31, 2009 by noot

[dr_Pat_Pong]

yeah , get over it guys.

thais love all ! eskimos, jew, nazis, chinese, everyone is welcome here!

ALL except you JACKO.

[yorkieboy]

There are symbols of today which, in the future, may be regarded as representing dictatorial policies and the mass murder of the innocents. The stars and stripes for example

[Brunus]

" Communists committed crimes that dwarf Hitler's." - such a childish comment

Study history before talking.

[kikoman]

Native American used the Swastika, way before there was a Nazi Government in Germany And it still is in use by many Native American Nations today, Many other cultures that also used the Swastika have no reason not to use them today.

I do not agree with this holocaust hysteria, especially in light of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians,

.

Why is it that only 6 million Jews are remembered, Russia lost 23 million in that war, many to Nazi inhumanity. Untold millions of people lost their lives to the Nazi and Japanese murders.The Rape of Nanking etc.

When you see US youths all decked out in full Nazi uniforms at anti Mexican rallies , The youth of the US and Europe have seen a great resurfacing of Nazism, under the guise of White power.

In that light I think your criticism of Thailand's Youth is out of line.

Cheers:

Edited December 31, 2009 by kikoman

[wolf5370]

Native American used the Swastika, way before the was a Nazi Government in Germany And it still is in use by many Native American Nations today, Many other cultures that also used the Swastika have no reason not to use them today.

I do not agree with this holocaust hysteria, especially in light of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians,

.

Why is it that only 6 million Jews are remembered, Russia lost 23 million in that war, many to Nazi inhumanity. Untold millions of people lost their lives to the Nazi and Japanese murders.The Rape of Nanking etc.

When you see US youths all decked out in full Nazi uniforms at anti Mexican rallies , The youth of the US and Europe have seen a great resurfacing of Nazism, under the guise of White power.

In that light I think your criticism of Thailand's Youth is out of line.

Cheers:

People on the Russian front were soldier (poorly equipped by their government), soldiers dieing in battle is hardly the same asd rounding up people and sending them to death camps. Keeping reghurgatating the earlier use of the Swastika is irrelevent, we are not talking about Buddhist or Natiove American symbols we are talking of 3rd Reich ones.

I agree that Japanese attrocities in China should be tauight more in schools in nthe west along with Nazi war crimes, but the fact one is 'overlooked' is not an excuse to allow the other either. However, I get where you are coming from on this. Isreal; has yet to round up six million Palestinians and gas them, so I believe the analogy is somewhat off (though the action is strill condemnable). It is often said that the first casualty of war is innocence.

We are not talking about kids wearing symbology per se, we are talking about a school that tells the kids to wear it - there is more than a subtle difference there. As this has happened before, and the government felt obliged to appologise, it seems silly to allow the same embarrassement to manifest again for the same reason.

Facism is indeed on the rise in some part of Europe (and America I guess - though I'm not sure if one type of facism has just beenm swapped for another?), and most of these countries stamp down on it - in several European countries it is illegall to wear such symbols. In several countries inciting hate is illegal too. Even political parties on the extreame right are careful to distance themselves from Nazis (those that believe they have a chance of election at least).

[doggie888888]

A bunch of Thai kids wearing "swastikas" is hardly a celebration of Nazism! The context here is Buddhism, not an affirmation of what Hitler did. Why should they stop using their cultural/religious symbols just because some misguided European stole the design and committed atrocities under that symbol? It's a tad far fetched (and funny) that a bunch of brown skinned youths would celebrate the Nazi's swastika, often a symbol of white power in a different context.

Catholics were responsible for murdering countless heretics/heathens/witches and I am sure the last thing these poor souls saw before being burned was the crucifix. Shoud Catholics now abandon the crucifix as their religious symbol just because a bunch of misguided persons in history decided to commit atrocities under that symbol?

[Heng]

There are many who feel the Japanese were the most brutal during world war two and the Thais have reason to remember at least to some degree the Japanese presence. The last time I looked, the rising sun still flies above the Japanese Embassy and nobody is writing a book about it. We need to get over this stuff. Seriously, who cares if these kids want to dress up as Cowboys and Indians or Nazis and Dutch resistance fighters. The Thais have no reason to give any thought to the ethnic minorities that get bent out of shape over this.

That's because there's not a media machine that churns out 'have you had your guilt trip today?' type movies, video games, etc. every few years (for the last 60+ years).

Could be a niche for HK movie studios.... Heng's List, The Chinese Harpist, etc.

[Pakboong]

Native American used the Swastika, way before the was a Nazi Government in Germany And it still is in use by many Native American Nations today, Many other cultures that also used the Swastika have no reason not to use them today.

I do not agree with this holocaust hysteria, especially in light of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians,

.

Why is it that only 6 million Jews are remembered, Russia lost 23 million in that war, many to Nazi inhumanity. Untold millions of people lost their lives to the Nazi and Japanese murders.The Rape of Nanking etc.

When you see US youths all decked out in full Nazi uniforms at anti Mexican rallies , The youth of the US and Europe have seen a great resurfacing of Nazism, under the guise of White power.

In that light I think your criticism of Thailand's Youth is out of line.

Cheers:

People on the Russian front were soldier (poorly equipped by their government), soldiers dieing in battle is hardly the same asd rounding up people and sending them to death camps. Keeping reghurgatating the earlier use of the Swastika is irrelevent, we are not talking about Buddhist or Natiove American symbols we are talking of 3rd Reich ones.

I agree that Japanese attrocities in China should be tauight more in schools in nthe west along with Nazi war crimes, but the fact one is 'overlooked' is not an excuse to allow the other either. However, I get where you are coming from on this. Isreal; has yet to round up six million Palestinians and gas them, so I believe the analogy is somewhat off (though the action is strill condemnable). It is often said that the first casualty of war is innocence.

We are not talking about kids wearing symbology per se, we are talking about a school that tells the kids to wear it - there is more than a subtle difference there. As this has happened before, and the government felt obliged to appologise, it seems silly to allow the same embarrassement to manifest again for the same reason.

Facism is indeed on the rise in some part of Europe (and America I guess - though I'm not sure if one type of facism has just beenm swapped for another?), and most of these countries stamp down on it - in several European countries it is illegall to wear such symbols. In several countries inciting hate is illegal too. Even political parties on the extreame right are careful to distance themselves from Nazis (those that believe they have a chance of election at least).

There is evidence that suggests the criminalizing of openly discussing history is the source of the problem which drives the kids to want to wear the Nazi uniform and do so in defiance of some law with which they do not agree. Arguing history cannot be a criminal matter regardless of your opinion. The truth of any matter needs no defense.

Trying to decide who were the worst bad guys can be measured in so many different ways. One must understand why Ukranians, for example made good concentration camp guards when they were in fact Soviet POWs captured by the Nazis in mass in 1941, where other Soviet POWs received horrible treatment at the hands of the Germans because the Soviets had not signed the Geneva convention. Understanding that the mortality rate in German POW camps was 8% as opposed to 25% in Japanese POW camps. These numbers need academic explanation as they don't fit the generally accepted story of who were the worst perpetrators. Understanding that the Americans summarily executed nearly 500 mostly Ukrainian guards upon liberating Dachau is certainly unlawful and simply finding lots of bodies might not justify such an act in a court of law. .Perhaps this act was the worst. Simply put, many bad things happened and the persecution of Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses were certainly among the worst. It may be that proportionate to that particular group's total population, the Jehovah Witnesses got the worst of it all or perhaps the Gypies but they seem have gotten over it.

It can be argued that being burned alive in a firestorm at Dresden, or at Hiroshima was the worst. Being bombed every day in a Berlin bomb shelter may have been worse than sitting in Auschwitz which never got bombed; simply because their government apparently started the conflict does not justify what happens to the civilians. It can certainly be argued that being gassed or shot in mass was very bad. Do numbers alone make one act worse than another act of aggressive behavior. We don't know how many died of Thyphus and Thyphoid fever in the camps after the German supply lines had been completely destroyed by the allies. The number of deaths to illness in the closing months of the war was possibly in the millions. All of those pictures we have seen many times of the camps being liberated are of inmates who died of disease, malnutrition, etc... due to destruction of the logistics infrastructure by the allies. They were not gassed or shot. They died from circumstances associated with the German defeat after D-Day. As many as 70 millions died in that war and each of the dead is equal in death regardless of how they got there.

[kikoman]

Native American used the Swastika, way before the was a Nazi Government in Germany And it still is in use by many Native American Nations today, Many other cultures that also used the Swastika have no reason not to use them today.

I do not agree with this holocaust hysteria, especially in light of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians,

.

Why is it that only 6 million Jews are remembered, Russia lost 23 million in that war, many to Nazi inhumanity. Untold millions of people lost their lives to the Nazi and Japanese murders.The Rape of Nanking etc.

When you see US youths all decked out in full Nazi uniforms at anti Mexican rallies , The youth of the US and Europe have seen a great resurfacing of Nazism, under the guise of White power.

In that light I think your criticism of Thailand's Youth is out of line.

Cheers:

People on the Russian front were soldier (poorly equipped by their government), soldiers dieing in battle is hardly the same asd rounding up people and sending them to death camps. Keeping reghurgatating the earlier use of the Swastika is irrelevent, we are not talking about Buddhist or Natiove American symbols we are talking of 3rd Reich ones.

I agree that Japanese attrocities in China should be tauight more in schools in nthe west along with Nazi war crimes, but the fact one is 'overlooked' is not an excuse to allow the other either. However, I get where you are coming from on this. Isreal; has yet to round up six million Palestinians and gas them, so I believe the analogy is somewhat off (though the action is strill condemnable). It is often said that the first casualty of war is innocence.

We are not talking about kids wearing symbology per se, we are talking about a school that tells the kids to wear it - there is more than a subtle difference there. As this has happened before, and the government felt obliged to appologise, it seems silly to allow the same embarrassement to manifest again for the same reason.

Facism is indeed on the rise in some part of Europe (and America I guess - though I'm not sure if one type of facism has just beenm swapped for another?), and most of these countries stamp down on it - in several European countries it is illegall to wear such symbols. In several countries inciting hate is illegal too. Even political parties on the extreame right are careful to distance themselves from Nazis (those that believe they have a chance of election at least).

When the Nazi invaded Russia, they were treated as hero's freeing the Russians from oppression. That soon changed as Nazi murdered millions of Russian. Part of the reason the Nazis failed at Stalingrad was because of Russian guerrilla groups attacking there supply lines.

Poland lost millions of it people to Nazi crimes after the month long invasion of their country, no nation in Europe escaped the Nazi Criminals or their killing machines!

[ballzafire]

The swastika is an ancient sun symbol which has been around a long, LONG time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_symbol

[Alwaysright]

The swaztika sign has something to do with buddhism,or so i thought.If the sign is harmless in Thailand then tourists will have to accept that they do not mean any harm.

Are you actualy saying they are celebrating natizm,cannot believe for sure

The sign has been around long before Hitler used it,you see it all around Nepal.No big deal,unless you make it so.

[Jingthing]

This isn't rocket science folks. The third reich swastika logo is VERY SPECIFIC to the Hitler era. Thai youth should NOT wear such a horrible logo, nor should anybody. Any other swastika logo associated with Buddhism, that is a totally separate thing. Get real.

[cdnvic]

I deleted one name-calling post and won't tolerate others.

[hhgz]

"If modern communists want to break with their awful past they should also chose a new symbol."

You are confusing "communists" with "fascists". Giving you the benefit of the doubt, just what is the symbol for communism?

[Pakboong]

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for

people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

-- Noam Chomsky

[ArthurPewty]

How many kids back in our own countries would know about The Khmer Rouge or the military killings of civilians here in Thailand by the (I forget their name. Possibly Red Hand or similar)in the 70s.

Let us face facts, Thais are not wordly and thefore think it looks pretty.

[glocker8888]

Marching around costumed like Nazis?? That's horrible!

Whats next? Riding around on bulldozers pretending to illegally demolish Palestinian homes with the A-rab families still inside??!!

Or perhaps the Thai students could pay tribute to the Jewish guards lording it over the A-rabs in the sweet little concentration camps they've set up in Gaza?